Why do people in uniforms turn my stomach?

I have this problem with people in military uniforms. I'm not sure what causes it. And no, it is not specific to american military personell, in fact I have not been exposed to any of those for a while, since I live in Europe. It applies to uniformed people from anywhere. I just feel a weird kind of jolt in my stomach, like I might be sick, when I walk past one. It sort of applies to military uniforms of all countries, but it seems to be worse if the respective country is involved in some sort of war. Anyone have similar feelings? Its really weird, I can't really explain it?

On a side note: It doesn't seem to be connected with guns. I grew up in the south of USA and we had guns, rifles etc. at my house. I have fired them myself. A person holding a rifle doesn't bother me. Just uniforms.

Regarding our minds all being connected at some level so if a certain things causes fear or discomfort for some, it can effect others remotely. But I have nothing tangible or practical to explain it.

...as soon as they come running to save your ass, you'll love them.

If my "ass" needs to be saved, I don't mind holding a rifle :shrug:

It has to do with believing in a lot of the hype, no matter where you are. They get you to believe a lot of stuff, that you are something really special, but when you come back and are injured, or go homeless, you are forgotten.

Also, it requires a fairly authoritarian, chain of command type of person. I don't believe I could have ever been in the military. It goes against my personality. Taking orders, being yelled at, that sort of thing, goes against my grain.

But most of all, when you see someone in a uniform, you think of unjust wars. In WWII, it was exactly the opposite, as almost everyone understood that it was needed. It was Hitler, and Germany who were attacking other countries, not America. I think we see uniforms, and we go to misuse of our human resources in war. Sad as it is, and as much as we understand that the soldier is not the war, there is still an association between the two. That is what the right-wing understnands, and it is what has made their conflation of soldiers and the war itself, so effective.

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I was an Air Force wife for 29 months when my husband was recalled to active duty during the Korean War. Luckily, the base was in our home town so we didn’t have to move and lived in an area close to the base.

I never felt comfortable in the role of an officer’s wife and did not conform to the idea that I was not to associate with my next door neighbor who was a sergeant’s wife. Luckily my husband felt the same way about the snobbery and chain of command and turned down the offer to become a career officer. It turned out to be a good decision!

military, but they are hardly "mindless automatons who are trained to follow orders and kill without questioning authority". I suggest that you educate yourself before you start making such broad brush statements.

And, as you may know, he was awarded the Medal of Honor twice plus the Brevet Medal as he rose to become the most decorated and highest-ranking Marine of his time. He missed being appointed Commandant of the Corps only because of his politics.

Commandant of the Corps because of his politics." He was qualified but not acceptable!

I think that quote was in regards to the question posed to him, "what makes the best marine...?"

Now, we can also pull the opinions from the German High Command and the Soviet STAVKA as to their opinions on the average American soldier. That makes for an most interesting contrast as words like, "too individual", "intellectual dreamers" and so forth are used quite commonly.

I suppose one man's mindless automaton is another man's individual doing the best he can in a hard, hard world-- depending on the respect we hold for them and dignity we give to them...

and that was where I copped the attitude that the military is for killing people. It isn't about saving lives, it's about killing people as efficiently as possible.

I'm guessing it's because of the Iraq fiasco.

I'm proud of my father. He fought in Vietnam and was awarded two Bronze Stars and two Purple Hearts. And he did it the hard way- in the Army Infantry as a platoon leader in Cu Chi.

My father's brother is buried in St Avold Cemetary in France. He was killed during WWII.

My maternal grandfather was in the US Navy in the Pacific during WWII.

The military allowed my father to escape a life in the coal mines and ultimately allowed him to earn a college degree and raise a family.

I am not suited for a military life. I'm too rebellious and always have been. I had a Naval scholarship in college and dropped it because I couldn't see myself in the military. So I paid my own way through school. But I respect the most of the people who serve in the military. I say most because I do not respect the current leadership who have allowed Bush to ruin the military.

You need to think before you open your mouth.

The Vietnamese people were fighting a foreign invader so they were the real patriots, not the invading army (French and US soldiers). I am proud of the Vietnamese people who sacrificed so much against overwhelming odds to liberate themselves from the US of A.

WWII is a better example, because the Nazis were invaders and occupiers.

As for the coal mines, there are ways to struggle against a system which exploits workers. Rather than run away from that, there were many brave civilian workers who confronted the exploiters and attempted to create better working conditions for the non-unionized mine workers. Some of them were willing to sacrifice themselves in defense of the rights of others. This is far more heroic to me that joining the Army to shoot up gooks in 'Nam.

As for thinking, perhaps if there were ways to better oneself without having to join a branch of the military, well, I think it would require a complete restructuring of US society away from a military culture and toward a true peace culture.

I don't need a regimentalized mindset to tell me how to think creatively.

Having spent 3 years in the US Army myself, I am of the opinion that the military hinders the creative capacity of human beings.

God and the Soldier, we adore,
In time of danger, not before.
The danger passed and all things righted,
God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted.
~Rudyard Kipling

so right, so poignant.

There is so much BS that revolves around the soldier. It is deception from the word go, the glorious soldier, the etc ...It's much like religion, slated for a purpose, to dupe folks, and get them to do what they want.

How do you get people to do a crappy, thankless job, without deceiving them as to its noble purpose. It's a hard job, no doubt, but they aren't fighting for America in Iraq. They are fighting for oil companies. I resent it when they say they are fighting to defend America, when they are fighting to attack Iraq. Iraq was no danger to us, nor was it attacking, and it was being inspected the whole time.

Besides, liberty is an inalienable right, and governments (with their uniformed agents) cannot give liberty or freedom -- only take it away.

Or that you're never caught up in a natural disaster where the National Guard is called in to help. Sure would suck telling them to get lost.

They were from MA too.

A right is something that cannot be taken away...

As hinted at by other posts, the homo sapiens species has an ability to 'de-volve' once placed in an environment of several identically dressed representatives. Certain individuals (like yourself, pernaps) are more aware of this reverse evolution potential and may become uneasy and/or disoriented on seeing prospective victims. It may help to repeat, either silently or aloud, "Question authority! Qestion authority! . . ." Moderate doses of various intoxicants may also provide temporary relief. Some theorize that a positive evolution of society towards acceptance of others' individualities may provide long-term relief, but this is controversial.

Basically, trust your instincts, and don't attend mass sporting events if you can avoid it.

(From a fellow sufferer.)

Do you feel sick when you see people in hunting gear? People wearing camo t-shirts? Camo paint on a wall? Do you feel sick when you see a picture of someone in uniform? What about WWII uniforms?

WWII uniforms: not sure, I've never seen one. I wasn't even close to born back then.

Just because we are in a war we clearly shouldn't be fighting doesn't mean it's hip to attack militaries in general.

I share Smith's problem.

I am troubled by people in uniforms - always have been. It's not that they represent authority. It's that they are subservient to authority. That's what bothers me. I've never been afraid of authority per se. I'm nervous around people that willingly submit to authority.

...unless of course it's a low cut nurse's uniform.

not "Anarchist Underground." Why on Earth would you call yourself a Democrat, or identify with Democratic posters on a Democratic board if you are an anarchist and inherently opposed to government? :shrug:

but maybe that's just me

read up on phobic responses, which can be to ANYTHING for unclear reasons.
Just see if basic self-help info gives you some understanding. If you do have a phobic response, it may expand if not corrected. :hi:

The uniform is not the issue- it is what that uniform means to you in particular.

Why do people in uniforms turn my stomach?

Probably some sort of hyper-sensitivity that causes you to (falsely) connect a uniform with authority. Do you react the same way to a doctor's lab coat, or a fire man's uniform, or is your denigration reserved for the military?

I imagine you are, of course, doing nothing but trolling and trying to stir folk up, but let me ask you this - in what way does your reaction to people in uniform differ from a racist's reaction to a person who's skin is different from theirs? In what way does your reaction to people in uniform differ from any other person who prejudices a person who dresses differently from them? You may disguised your prejudice better than a KKK member, but be sure, it is nothing more than a disguise. If you are willing to prejudge people according to the way they dress, if a military uniform does, in fact, make you physically ill, then you have no more right to call yourself a liberal or progressive than your run of the mill member of the Aryan Nation.

Because of the very first word...unthinking. Much like the OP's unthinking reflexive sickening by people in uniform.

I do not have unthinking respect for those in uniform but then I don't have unthinking disrespect for them either, as you and the OP seem to be suggesting. As I suggested to the OP, if you have an unthinking response to a person who differs from you whether it be their hair or clothes or skin, then you have no business calling yourself a progressive, you've just found a way to justify your bigotry.

Neat how that cuts both ways, huh?

I'm not hateful of it or you, however I don't believe the reverse can be said about you and your thoughts on those in uniform. My distate for the OPs attitude comes from the fact that it is a bigoted viewpoint. It is a prejudgement of someone simply because they wear clothes that associate them with a certain group. Because that's all a uniform really does, right? It's an outward symbol of belonging to a certain group. Inside that uniform is an individual.

Since I identify with the poster, perhaps I'm projecting my own anti-authoritarianism into his example, while you are projecting your distaste of bigotry into it. It's just that I don't perceive anti-authoritarianism as being synonymous with bigotry...not by a long shot.

I've been accused (rightfully so) of being anti-authoritarian in my time as well. I don't go with the flow just because everyone else is doing it. It got me in trouble (once significantly) on many occasions when I was in the military.

It has nothing to do with projection. It has to do with the fact that I prefer to judge all people as individuals. Sometimes I fail at this and let my own predudices get the better or me, but at least I have the self-awareness to be disappointed in myself when it happens and try to stop it from happening again, while the OP, in an aloof way, seems to almost be bragging about the fact that a military uniform sickens him (or her, but I think him).

There are over a million people in the US military alone. Some are hardcore republicans, some far left liberals. To lump them all into a single entity because of their uniform is bigoted at best.

You fail to realize that one can be anti-authoritarian while being part of an authoritarian complex. I find it hard to justify your anti-authoritarian stance when you are so willing to take away a persons individuality based on a symbol (the symbol, in this case, being a uniform).

Beyond that, my anti-authoritarian streak apparently never permitted me to even considering military service! :rofl: I quit school for the same reasons: I don't jump when a bell is sounded.

You're an individual, just like all the people that have done it before you. You're not going to conform, just like all the other non-conformists. You're an individual, you just think your individuality is superior to that of others who have chosen a different path.

Do you think a person of a particular religion has surrendered their individuality to their God? Do you think a police officer has surrendered their individuality to justice? Your assumption than one surrenders thier individuality when they become part of an organization is repugnant.

You take anti-authoritarianism to such an extreme that you seem to think any organized thing is bad. You are mistaken in this belief.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

"I love and treasure individuals as I meet them; I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to." ~ George Carlin

to be taking the later half of Carlin's quote to heart...

I'm not angry about it any more than I'm angry about anything that I see as bigoted.

But that's okay too.

when he/she surrenders her/his body and mind to a repugnant enterprise.

The military is at base a repugnant enterprise...

Yes it is.

So is garbage removal, or waste water treatment. Do you disrespect those who chose to perform those tasks? Does the very sight of them make you sick?

How is a society to survive if it is not willing to protect itself? Unless some of us are willing to take on the burden of fighting and dying in the defense of the whole our society will soon cease to exist. Those who do so deserve our thanks, not slander.

I frankly feel pacifists are the worst sort of free riders on society. I find it repugnant that they are willing to let others go out and do the heavy lifting required for our continued existence as a nation, their willingness to let others suffer the physical, emotional and mental damage they themselves are unwilling to endure. And I find it beautiful and noble that our military protects and defends them just as it does all other citizens.

don't invade other nations ,kill its citizens and pillage their resources.
No US soldier has died defending me or protecting my rights in my life time.Many have died stealing resources from others or protecting their corporate masters property and I find that repugnant to the extreme.
Garbagemen,waste treatment workers,teachers,construction workers,medical professionals and every other working class person in America have done more to make this country great then anything the military has ever done.

that would be bad. :eyes:

I don't dislike people in uniform, but come on. Making judgments about people because they choose to be a part of an organization that requires a certain uniform isn't even remotely the same as making judgments about someone because of the color of his/her skin. That's a ridiculous comparison.

There's a bit of a difference in the stated goals of the KKK and the stated goals of the miliary, doncha think? The KKK's mission is a return to the 1850, the repression and enslavement of non-whites and a return to total segregation. It's pretty safe to assume that anyone in the KKK shares that view. Trying to pidgeon-hole the military in the same manner is silly.

millions of others around the world look at A US military uniform the same way an African-American looks at a klukhead robe.
Terror is terror.No matter what flag or lofty sounding goal it wraps itself in.

Only military. And the way this is similar to racism is simply beyond me :shrug:

Besides: Since when did pacifists start getting called trolls, mentally defective and stinking hippies on this board?

"You know, I remember in high school, already I was pretty old. I suddenly asked myself at one point, why do I care if my high school team wins the football game? I mean, I don't know anybody on the team, you know? I mean, they have nothing to do with me, I mean, why I am cheering for my team? It doesn't mean any -- it doesn't make sense. But the point is, it does make sense: it's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority, and group cohesion behind leadership elements -- in fact, it's training in irrational jingoism. That's also a feature of competitive sports. I think if you look closely at these things, I think, typically, they do have functions, and that's why energy is devoted to supporting them and creating a basis for them and advertisers are willing to pay for them and so on."

~ Noam Chomsky

As for the comparison to racism, you are making a judgement against someone because of the clothing they're wearing. Inside each of those military uniforms is an individual, yet you judge them for the uniform they wear.

Are you a part of any sort of organization that has a symbol or uniform? How would you feel if someone walked up to you and said "your makes me sick!"

What I did was describe the physical reaction that my body produces, when confronted with a specific stimulus. What I think about it is entirely a different thing.

To answer your question: If someone told me I make them sick, I would probably wonder why I do.

You may be subconsciously judging them, but you are judging them, otherwise you wouldn't have such a reaction. Unless you're having such a reaction in response to some buried memory or some other psychological reaction. You are reacting for a reason. I would equate your response as being very negative.

What do you think you're reacting to?

and the evil bastards who hire them to do their killing for them...

Thus the revulsion...

"Since when did pacifists start getting called trolls, mentally defective and stinking hippies on this board?"

That's just plain unfair and I sympathize with you... I seriously doubt you're a stinking hippy.

I suppose many people have the same reaction to hippies the OP has in reaction the people wearing a particular kind of clothing, too. Two sides of the same psychology I imagine.

To each their own-- the uniform that inspires revulsion in one person inspires gratitude in another.

Seems to me that we should simply give each person respect (regardless of what they wear) unless and until they earn our disrespect.

"Hippies" (whatever that is) were hated because they represented Peace, Freedom and Love.

The military uniform represents war, hate and killing.

You do the math! :shrug:

Proud hippie. Born Too Late is tattooed on my arm.

Or maybe mental illness?

What I was thinking too.

Odd. I feel the same way when I pass a horde of slackers wearing Birkenstocks, camo shorts and reeking of clove cigarettes.

You have an emotional/physical response to people you do not know based on appearance (clothes, in this case, as opposed to race or gender)?

Bigotry.

You strongly react to appearance and respond to all individuals who look that way (wear a uniform) without having any personal reasons to dislike them as INDIVIDUALS, without knowing those individuals and having response to them as individuals?

Replace "people in uniforms" with:
People of color
People of a particular religious belief system
People of one gender

and what do you get? Bigotry.

Spend some energy on getting some real information and take time to actually get to know some INDIVIDUALS who happen to wear uniforms in their professional lives. Defeat the ignorance and see if it helps you get past the bigotry.

Battling ignorance about groups and seeing members of those groups as INDIVIDUALS is how all of us fight the destructive thing which is bigotry. We all have it in some form and we would all be better INDIVIDUALS if we work on ours.

I'm frankly taken aback at how so many are responding to this. There is a great deal of sociological/psychological research in this area...and that's not saying that the variables you cite don't play significant roles, but I think many lose sight of how individuals give themselves over to the hierarchical systems they're psychologically compelled to be beholden to.

It doesn't require too much brain power to appreciate the act that the original poster is reacting to the symbolic power of the uniform, not someone's "appearance."

So your entire post is tangential and really has little to do with the subject at hand. Military Uniform represents a larger institution and ideas connected with that institution. People of color do not "represent" an institution or entity responsible for mass quantities of violence simply by being "black." Neither does a person's gender. You can't replace "people in uniforms" with any of the other things you mentioned.

You need to appreciate the fact that there are two different ways someone who has a negative reaction to someone in uniform can be thinking.

One way, the way that is clearly not represented if the original posters comments are actually read, is to see the uniform, and because of personal beliefs or values assume that the individual is bad, stupid, or somehow wrong, less than, etc. That's one way, yes. Is that what's going on with the orginal poster. Of course not.

The other way, is to see the uniform and, without making judgments about the individual feeling intense discomfort with that that uniform symbolizes at an institutional level. Just like if you saw someone wearing a Nazi flag you might be immediately uncomfortable with what that symbolizes in its own right, independent of whatever you think of the individual.

You pretty much just grabbed this thread as an opportunity to get on a soapbox. Your points might be true - sometimes - but they don't seem to be relevant to this thread or poster.

"the original poster is reacting to the symbolic power of the uniform, not someone's appearance."

Then possibly the OP should have simply stated he didn't like figures of authority (life guards, EMT's, baby sitters, soldiers, etc) and then go on to explain why rather than couching it in trendy, hand-me-down Freudian terms.

And if he actually does have a negative physical reaction to soldiers, I'm sure there's a pill on the market...

<-- social worker.


EDIT - nor are there any to be found in the original post, for that matter.

Hand-me-down Freud is very trendy (ex-CPS worker for what it's worth)

And I think the OP is replete with possible interpretive analysis...

Psychoanalytic theory has become much less trendy and replaced (even in the popular media) with trends coming from the more cognitive behavioral frameworks which have become so popular in the last decade.

And FWIW, interpretive analysis does not equal Freudian terms. The analysis would have to be very specific into key target areas, with an assumption that those target areas were the root and key for understanding literally everything else.

Trendy in pop culture rather than in the system itself.

:rofl:

;)

;) backatcha

Because its been so long since the Military has been a tool of constitutional justice and liberty, and instead has been used for decades as the arm of hegemonic foreign policy based on greed and corruption to engage in illegal and unjust aggression around the world.

And even though many of the people in uniform had little choice but to be there (i.e. economic draft) or have no understanding of the reality just described, it is still a discomforting site to see representatives of an entity that has been responsible for so much baseless evil in the last half century.

Yes, I said it.

It's a true pity of our time, in my opinion, that the military only receives bad press. For all the collective small good things our military does, the few bad apples steal the show.

Katrina aid
Tsunami disaster relief
Millions in charitable donations

Those are just some of the biggies. On a local level, the military and national guard components are responsible for thousands of acts of selfless-service.

and if I might add a few personal experiences:

Volonteering time to help teach Korean children English while I was stationed in Korea.
Setting up a local-level program in Afghanistan to teach women who had been totally supressed by the Taliban to drive.
Helping local villagers in Afghanistan build pens for thier livestock (roads + Humvees + goats = bad).

First of all, National Guard is not the same as the United States Military. That takes care of Kartina aid, though I wouldn't be brazen enough to list response to Katrina by anyone under the category of a positive. In fact half the problem with Katrina rescue was that all of our military assets were tied up in an illegal aggression over seas when we needed them at home.

Second, what exactly did the military do in Tsunami disaster relief as part of its organizational mission?

Millions in charitable donations? Everything you have so far described are side-issues from the military's primary role and operation. This is like looking at a corporation that goes out and kills people in the streets, blows up other corporations, and acts in brazenly reckless ways and then say, "well hey, they give to charity!" It doesn't make what they are doing any better, does it?

I suggest that each of the things you mention could be better accomplished by individuals and other agencies - aid, charity, volunteering, you don't need military for that.

to say it's not is simply ignorant. You should tell all the guardsmen and women in Iraq and Afghanistan that they're not part of the military. I think their objection would be fairly strenuous. I don't disagree that there should have been far more of them to help with Katrina relief.

As for the military role in Tsunami relief, you can edjucate yourself here: http://www.pacom.mil/special/0412asia/index.shtml

or here: http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=6717

or here (despite annyoing Bush cheerleading): http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/tsunami/

or here: http://www.defenselink.mil/home/features/tsunami/index.html

or you can do a google search and read some of the dozens of individual blogs about it.


My point, however is getting bogged down. The military, and the millions of individuals that make it up, quietly perform selfless acts on a daily basis, whether it's helping build something or helping save someone or helping pull someone's puppy out of a strom drain. We rarely hear about these things because its not nearly as good for the media's bottom line as stories of rape, assassination and abuse because like it or not, those things happen too, and they do need to be reported on. I'd just like to see some more air time for the positive things that people in uniform do (and not just those in the military). For every story about a cop doing something heroic, there are dozens of "bad cop" stories. For every fire-fighter that runs into a burning building to save a life, there's a dozen stories about a fire fighter setting fires. When was the last time you heard a story about an EMT putting himself or herself at risk to save a life? When was the last time you heard a story about an emergency room doctor working 48 hours becaus someone had to be there?

Face it-- anti-authoritarianism is a valuable marketing trend and a lot of us have bought into it. Many of us have a knee-jerk reaction to that most subjective of labels-- Authority. Professors, managers, doctors, police, parents, film directors, etc are simply the obvious targets.

Regardless of the collective good one organization may be engaged in, often those good works will be overlooked to more easily allow vilification and self-defined objective black and white terms to allow justification of a position.

This has been a marketing trend for many decades, and especially since the Counter Culture - the only recent mass uprising of U.S. citizens against govt/military/"conservative" ideals. The idea is to keep those kids believing that they're actually raging against that machine by adopting a harmless, profitable cultural affectation which in both theory and practice is frighteningly weak in terms of genuine anti-authoritarianism ... if for any other reason that it relegates dissent/protest, grounding it in conformity/uniformity. Herbert Marcuse was making this point in the early 60s with his book, One-Dimensional Man:

http://igw.tuwien.ac.at/christian/marcuse/odm.html

"Among neurotics, there are not a few who do not require any reminders of their social duties and obligations, but are born and destined rather to be bearers of new cultural ideals. They are neurotic as long as they bow down before authority and refuse the freedom to which they are destined. As long as we look at life only retrospectively, as is the case in the psychoanalytic writings of the Viennese school, we shall never do justice to these persons and never bring them for the longed-for deliverance. For in this way we train them only to be obedient children and thereby strengthen the very forces that made them ill—their conservative backwardness and submission to authority." ~ C.G.Jung

I'm acquainted with too many "I have my MRE's ready to go at a moment's notice of the downfall of civilization" type guys to think that marketing hasn't tapped and then taken over the loose and unkowing coalition of anti-authoritarians.

We all have our opinions on it. I suppose even Jung did, as well as Hal Lindsey, Katherine Albricht and a host of pop (sorry-- garage, grunge, etc.) bands. There's some serious money in raising one's fist in righteous indignation, and I'd be surprised if a clothing line hasn't already appeared to sex it up a little bit.

:eyes:

It has nothing do with blah blah trend and you know it.

If the bad outweighs the good, then it needs to be addressed.

Don't lump me in with some others you've been arguing with on this thread. I'm far too old, too tired and frankly too smart to deserve that.

so the 1 billion deaths in the 20th Century at the hand of military actions, the actions they are trained and tasked to do is all made up for by a few "selfless acts" of a few individuals.

Damn funny calculus.

I'd call it Voodoo math...

I'd prefer to give the 100s of billions to Social Workers and give the military just enough to defend us from the Duchy of Grand Fenwick...

and poorly trained for humanitarian duties.

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper and more peaceful and a HELL of a lot more effective for civilian NGOs to get the hundreds of billions that are pissed away on the military to perform humanitarian duties and for the military get a few billion to defend the country in case the Lithuanians decide to invade...

"Military has been a tool of constitutional justice and liberty"

WHAT!!!!!?????

When the hell has that ever been the case -- EVER in human history?????

The military, legions, hordes have ALWAYS been in the service of the masters for the masters' private gain.

The only armed groups that can conceivably be characterized as a "tool of justice and liberty" are the forces of rebellion like the Cuban Revolutionaries, the Underground Resistance in Europe in WWII, the Weather Underground, the Zapatistas in Chiapas, MX -- they fought and fight the masters' military.

Read the TRUTH here:

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

As long as that big lie that the military exists to "protect our freedoms" is extant there will be more Vietnams, Iraqs and soon, Irans... Don't freakin' believe their lies!!!

Then you believe we should disband the U.S. military?

If so, do you believe that there would be zero negative consequences to that action; or if there are indeed negative consequences, how do propose we deal with them?

deal with other nations and peoples using diplomacy and share the wealth of the Earth instead of hogging it!!

Look around, bunky, who the FUCK is near our borders enough to do shit!?!?!?!?

I believe that there are FAR more positive consequences if we began acting like a decent world citizen than being the rapacious empire we've become...

They didn't "attack us because of our freedoms" they attacked us because we're a nation of greedy fucking asshole with a bloated military to rape, rob and steal...

<>

If so, you got some real problems.

Oh wait, that isn't puke...

It wins every time against the uniforms.

Hang on to that one dude! :)

"Mannequin Manufacturing Plant"

I like that-- it seems an apt description of most contemporary garage band music, too. :)

I know the courage, convictions and unselfishness it takes to be a soldier. I can't help but respect the heck out of them.

However, if those same soldiers you get all tingly over were plying their trade (aerial terror bombings, overuse of firepower, torture, detention w/o charge, sniper baiting, etc) on you or your family I bet you'd have a different opinion.

That has to be one of my favorite irrationally overdramatic and unnecessary responses thrown at me in reply to something benign and innocent, EVER!

:rofl:

That's the legacy, from Vietnam to Iraq, of the boots you lick.

Keep em comin!!! More drama. MORE DRAMA I SAY!!!!

:rofl:

It's frustrating to see mindless hero-worship coming from people who think military life is like a fucking John Wayne movie.

the hundreds of thousands of Germans Italians and Japanese

very offensive to me as a USAF brat and veteran

It's so fucking easy to worship something you either don't understand or don't live in fear of.

You don't like the fact that I point out the real detritius of your heroes?

"It's easy to glorify from afar."

And it's far more easy to denigrate from afar...

Pardon me for saying so, but that kind of gushing is something I only ever hear from people who haven't served, haven't got family in, whatever. I was in for a stint, and the truth is that it does not take "courage, convictions, or unselfishness" to be a soldier. It takes a need for a steady paycheck and a healthy body, and that's it.

Don't get me wrong, some of my best and oldest buddies are still serving, and I love 'em to death. But when I hear people gush about military service and make it sound like being a fricking astronaut, I just have to shake my head.

But I don't understand the OP's aversion to uniforms, either. They're just uniforms. Just something you put on to do your job, no different from the gas station uniform my dad used to wear.

And yes, I respect the fuck out of anyone that has the courage, convictions and unselfishness to serve in the armed forces.

If you don't, you don't. To each their own.

you respect them and I don't.

But that's why I put an "if". That basically meant uncertainty on my part on where you stood.

Respect is one thing, exaggerated praise is another.

Still, I've got to admit it takes real chutzpah to suggest that someone else might have less respect for military people when you haven't served yourself. I mean, I assume the answer to my original question was "no", since you ignored it.

I offered no exaggerated praise, and it makes you look a bit silly to claim such.

And whether or not one has served in the military is irrelevant as it relates to one's capability to have respect for such.

It's relevant to that statement, don't you think? If that's not exaggerated, empty praise I don't know what is.

You're being the opposite of the OP. If he's irrationally anti-military, you seem to be irrationally pro-military. They're just people. Not villains, not heroes.

To call such a characterization of them exaggerated or that it is empty praise, just makes you look like a fool.

Talk about warped perception... :hi:

I've just always been annoyed by overblown praise for the military from people who don't want to join up themselves. If it's really so god damned wonderful, you should join.

But I guess there's no need. I mean, you already 'know what it takes to be a soldier' and all that shit.

it takes to allow the military to strip you of what little personality you may have and with the help of raging hormones and an unformed, immature brain with inadequate judgment capability to build you into a cold-blooded killing machine for the corporate capitalist masters...

Wow! What Courage! What Convictions! What Unselfishness! ???

The whole concept makes me want to :puke:


And as long as people continue to believe that bullshit, we'll have wars and domestic spying and CoInTelPro and more and more little bushes peering into our lives in the name of "Homeland Security"...

:hi:

from a vet...

...for being one.

For whatever reason you have a strong negative belief about what a uniform represents. This becomes incorporated into a hardwired response.

It is an irrational response, however, as there are good people in the militarty.

Of course.

But their primary duty is to do Evil things.

What does that tell you?

And before you say they're contributing to the effort, let me just point that you are, too. If you're paying taxes and producing widgets, you're part of the process, too.

"And before you say they're contributing to the effort, let me just point that you are, too. If you're paying taxes and producing widgets, you're part of the process, too."

Actually, I'm too poor to pay taxes and I have NEVER worked in the war industry.

still supporting an evil and unproductive system...

"What does that tell you?"

It tells me that those who appear to absolutely know what Evil is are just as biased by their agendas as those who appear to absolutely know what Good is. It tells me that both are fallible, human and prone to error. It tells me that the judgment of one is worth no more, nor no less than the judgment of the other.

But that's just me...

Their primary duty is not to do evil things. Where do you even get off making such a statement? It tells me alot about you, however.

and that's because, as a homeless person, I was harassed and abused by them daily.

I lost any respect I had for uniforms while I was in the Marine Corps.

EMT's, clergy, dog catchers, or etc...it is what these individuals do while in the course of wearing their uniforms that sometimes bothers me

They represent the worst of human failings -- the use of force to get their master's way. They are nearly ALWAYS in the hire and pay of the worst elements of society -- the owners and masters rather than the people.

I speak from experience. I was brought up in a military family and as a result of the propoganda was deathly afraid of "civilian life". So I went to the Naval Academy.

I then realized what an evil sham the military was while at Annapolis (thank you, Bob Dylan!) and resigned. I have been anti-military and anti-militaristic ever since.

One of the most evil, prevalent, useless POS lies extant is the one that goes, "the military is protecting your freedom!".

Read this if you believe that bullshit!

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

The whole book is there.

The whole Truth is there.

The USAmerikan military is protecting the "assets" of their corporate capitalist masters...

The U.S. American People don't need no fucking bloated legions at the cost of over $1 Trillion per year to protect them!!!

It always disturbs me.

and pro-military...



And for you pro-military folk who can't seem to read the OP said "MILITARY UNIFORMS" -- not doctors or nurses or school crossing guards...MILITARY UNIFORMS...

If they don't make you sick you're part of the problem.

One CANNOT be Progressive and pro-military...

Care to expound on that? Maybe a precise and relevant definition of what Pro-Military is as well as an all-encompassing list of those things that Progressives may not stand for seems to be a good start.

Then maybe go into some qualifiers nullifying anything positive the military has ever done.

And finally a quick discourse on the practicality of dismantling the U.S. military and the consequences that would result from that...?

The military has one purpose and one purpose only to make sure that those who are in charge get what they want by force.

Taking what you want by force of arms IS NOT a progressive value.

Ergo; the Military is NOT a progressive operation and anyone who supports it is not supporting a progressive cause.

Peace is a progressive value. The abolition of war and dismantling of the machinery of war is a progressive value.

Invading and occupying Iraq is NOT a progressive action.

To support a war machine at any level is NOT progressive.


That doesn't mean that you have to hate the poor deluded bastards who are IN the military, and I don't hate them. It does mean that I hate what they do, I hate their training, I hate their (mostly) myopic single-minded ignorant opinion that what they're doing is valuable but I don't hate them as individual persons.

I just gag a little when I see a military uniform...

"To support a war machine at any level is NOT progressive."

I'm sure the various People's Revolutionary Armies would be surprised to hear this.

Or are we about to declare Marx a reactionary?

Just remember, if I and a few others of my brothers and sisters in arms did not exist then you could not do a myriad of the everyday things you did today, to include typing out your "thoughts" and posting them for the world to see.

In brief summary.... You're welcome.

What a crock of shit.

and with beliefs that speak from his experience.

You seem to be doing just the opposite.

Perhaps you should try and formulate your opinions in a more, shall we say, thought provoking fashion. If this were the case then perhaps I might listen to you.

Unless all you wish to do is hear yourself talk.

Laughing icons and "ROTL" statements really don't help. They are what one uses when one is lacking anything of merit to say.

I'm afraid I actually read an astonishing lack of detail-- PD made a position statement (Progressivism = anti-military) but has so far failed to expound on it in any meaningful way. So I can readily sympathize with OMC's apparent frustration.

"They are what one uses when one is lacking anything of merit to say."
Sometimes, laughing at the preposterous is the most appropriate choice...

Some things don't require a huge debate and back and forth argument of merits in order for them to be just plain dumb.

Saying that in order to be a progressive, one must shun the military, is just, plain, dumb.

I might ask you to read my response #146.

We all draw our own conclusions, and I think you can figure out mine.

You see, the easiest way to opt out of a discussion is to say "that's so stupid it doesn't even deserve a response", which is of course what you just did. It's a hallmark of folks who can't argue a position in depth.

Sorry, but that is a trait I don't find admirable.

Now, you COULD try and find examples of progressives who find the military in its present form admirable, but I think you'd be looking for quite a while.

Do you find it coincidental, BTW, that in order to staff today's military that all sorts of previously unwelcome groups (white supremacists, etc.) are now freely admitted?

Those are groups that I shun, for sure.

You???

It was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If ya don't see how, then I feel for you a bit.

But to think for a second that I or anyone else should have to invest their time into providing facts to support how stupid it is, is just beyond ridiculous. I wouldn't feel the need to post a litany of facts as to why I know that the grand canyon wasn't created only 5000 years ago either.

Some things are just simply stupid on their face. This was one of those things.

No more food for you...

Patty-cake, anyone?

I hope you don't mind if I politely refuse to engage you anymore, but my time on earth is finite and I'd rather not waste it on someone who meets all the requirements of the proverbial high school "underacheiver."

Good luck, and if you're looking for a hobby take up reading.

Can't hurt.

:kudos:

:eyes:

I was very hesitant about joining due to the increasing appearance of folks who have nothing to say, but insist on saying it anyway.

For instance, people who make snide comments about another poster's history (or apparent lack thereof) strike me as having very little of consequence to say.

Those are the folks that really do nothing for me, and I instead gravitate to those who can actually stake out a position and argue the merits accordingly. Understand that because of my long "waiting period" i have been able to view things from afar, and formulate my opinion on those who "get it" vs. those who want to play patty-cake on the 'net.

Perhaps I indeed have made the wrong choice, because the patty-cake chorus seems to be taking the place over.

I mean, it sounds so legitimate and all.

:rofl:

when you can use mindless invective instead.

Some here make a career of mindless invective...it's all they got...

Thanks for trying though... :hi:

"mindless invective is the last refuse of the scoundrel"

you're welcome :hi:

(I wonder how many of them are now Googling "Samuel Johnson") :)

maybe they will f***ing go away

that flies in the face of many many DU moms & dads whose lives are made better having had their sons & daughters come back from bush's insane excursion; reading the OP further minus the subject line which was the hook itself:

"I'm not sure what causes it. And no, it is not specific to american military personell, in fact I have not been exposed to any of those for a while, since I live in Europe. It applies to uniformed people from anywhere. I just feel a weird kind of jolt in my stomach, like I might be sick, when I walk past one. It sort of applies to military uniforms of all countries, but it seems to be worse if the respective country is involved in some sort of war. Anyone have similar feelings? Its really weird, I can't really explain it?

On a side note: It doesn't seem to be connected with guns. I grew up in the south of USA and we had guns, rifles etc. at my house. I have fired them myself. A person holding a rifle doesn't bother me. Just uniforms."

...Just uniforms, very well...

One with so rigid a relationship to, and disregard for authority, may even have issues when the world collapses as others attempt to dispense food stuffs in an orderly manner. Especially as your armed, nut-ball militia shows up with "rifles" in hand dressed like they just came form The Gap, that will be a day to remember.

I have three veterans in my family, and several others who served but were not deployed to a warzone. Still uniforms make me sick. I don't feel like I'm "dishonoring" my heritage, if you wanna go there :shrug:

Why is it always the same argument: When shit goes all to hell you will be glad that we have the military.

What if shit goes all to hell because we have the military? Ever thought about that?

edit: typo

As I had stated, at least for me, your sig-line contained the hook. My father flew over Germany and somehow survived landing in French occupied France on battered wings. My GodFather was a Top Gun flight instructor. I lost an older brother over Vietnam, a fighter pilot; he never came back not even in a box.

Why is it always the same short little loop? It is 'the military' that is the problem; without addressing just who sends it off over the horizon to perform whatever would-be noble/nefarious tasks i.e. Dick Cheney? Who does not wear, nor never wore a uniform, which seems to negate your blanket fear of uniforms as a practical matter.

Or, take the queue of stand-up comic, a very funny guy: Chris Rock, when he figures he's got nothing to worry about "Till (he) sees Russian tanks rolling up Flat-bush Ave."

Or, with respect to uniforms at the grass roots level; refer to Frank Zappa's response to a British heckler at his live Royal Albert Hall performance, the audience guy suggesting uniforms, much as you have, being some of the roots of all evil...Zappa informs the guy, and I paraphrase: 'Don't kid yourself. We all were uniforms.'

His point being, at least to my mind, that perhaps even freedom has a uniform: Levis (faded, stone washed, patched or otherwise), long hair/dread locks, peace sign; come on, add your own...

When I used to barrel race, all them/us cowboys & cowgirls wore undeniable uniforms. Which was part of my point above as well. It depends on the person wearing the uniform i.e. here: Jim Hightower.

There are quite a few valued, long time DUer's that have worn the uniform which makes you so ill. I just think it serves fewer purposes to mingle such matters with what should be a, if you will, forward, progressive march toward the understanding of such things.

Further, I reject out-of-hand that I am pro military.

All the best to you.

"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." Albert Einstein

that begged FDR to build the Atomic bomb.

Jesus. Do you know how Hitler got defeated? Do you think it was by crossing guards and nurses?

and they had no choice because the Nazis were going to kill them and take over their country.

But Hitler could have been contained long before that, had not been for the far right, in particular of Britain’s Tory class which chose to support him, noblemen such as the Duke of Windsor, who would be on the General Staff of the British Expeditionary Force in France in 1940, and he would provide military intelligence for the Nazi high command. The British capitalists were intent on liquidating the labor movement in Great Britain and join with Hitler in attack against the Soviet Union.

This was the policy of all of the Tory governments in the 1930’s, it was rather obvious under Chamberlain by 1939. Concession after concession was given to Hitler; he was allowed to take country after country. In 1938, Chamberlain betrayed Czechoslovakia with whom Britain and France had a solemn collective security treaty.

Stalin made every possible effort to forge an alliance with Britain and France to contain Hitler but every effort was rebuffed.

the Soviet army wore uniforms you know.

againt the Nazi hordes, so it would have been impossible to expect that everyone who was fighting the Nazis in Russia had a military uniform.

You never heard of an underground resistance?

from an agressor, that I am on the side of the defender.

The defenders: the people in and out of the military uniforms of the USSR. It wasn't always possible or even of tactical advantage to wear military uniforms in a war of attrition as happened in the Russian front.

the agressors: Nazi Germany

In the Soviet Union during the early and mid part of the war. As the Soviet army marched west, guerilla bands were disbanded and their fighters were drafted into the Soviet Army. By late 1944 all of the Soviet underground had disappeared from the scene.

who would not have used military uniforms so that could not be easily identified?

What about the Viet Cong? Ordinary farmers by day, guerrilla sabatoreurs by night.

the vietnam war in retrospect was fucked up. Hell, screw the retrospect part. It was fucked up at the time, too. Both the US aggressors and the North Vietnamese were guilty of terrible terrible war crimes.

both sides were wrong you know. wars are sometimes fought that way.

Both sides were guilty of war crimes. Both sides.

we were asked by the South Vietnamese to aid in the war against the VC and later the NVA

the U.S. was the invader and occupier (sound familiar?)...

The V.C., etc. were the indigenous Freedom Fighters trying to liberate their own country from the invader.

That's a big freakin' difference...

I respected the monks...

----------

You are absolutely correct though that all sides in all wars are wrong!!!

doesn't matter who started what... doesn't matter who was trying to liberate what... if you use torture, you're a useless asshole.

just...wow.

Might change your mind. :evilgrin:

Makes my heart go pitter-pat :shrug:

YUM!!!

Camouflage fatigues on civilians in the mall = “I’m a deranged asshole”

perhaps you're just not thinking things through.

and it's buried in your subconscious.

(i'm kidding--but it's a possibility that's for sure)

all wore uniforms and served proudly. My father served in the Marines for 30 years and has been a life long Democratic voter. He served in Korea and during Vietnam.

One of my Dad's younger brothers(and Uncle I have never known) gave his 18 year old life in Korea. He was awarded the Purple Heart with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters, the Combat Infantryman's Badge, the Korean Service Medal, the United Nations Service Medal, the National Defense Service Medal and the Korean War Service Medal.

Are you saying he and some many others like him turn your stomach?

While I personally loath any and all wars (especially the current one) our military perform a service that I couldn't possibly imagine having to do. Thanks to Bush and the freakin GOP, they are quickly decimating their ranks in this evil, unwarranted mess. The last thing, the very last thing I would say about any of them that wear a uniform is that they make me sick.

were also in the military. I have three veterans in the family. Still uniforms make me sick. :shrug:

Not really...but some do---or a woman.

Uniforms must represent something traumatic. Have you seen a shrink about this? Not that it necessarily needs addressing unless its going to mess with your personal or work life.

:shrug:

:D

"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."

-Albert Einstein

Let's face it, probably about 90 or 95 percent of the time in the past century the U.S. military has been used to further an agenda that had NOTHING to do with "defending freedom."

WWII was a glaring exception.

It's hard to separate the aims of the military-industrial complex from the individual uniform-wearing soldier. I have a hard time with that myself. Some are people who just want a college education or to escape crappy prospects. Some are gung-ho "gonna kill the brown camel jockeys" types. Some truly think the U.S. military defends our "freedom" -- like slaughtering innocents for corporate gain has anything to do with "freedom."

... the military is doing a good.

But, as it is, by simply existing to go to poor parts of the world to pave the way for U.S. corporate domination, no, I'd say it is NOT doing a good thing.

I don't think it is. I don't post much but have been here for a while and the OP is not alone in his apparent contempt for the military.There are other DUers who have similar feelings.

Something tells me you are indeed not channeling Morrison...

Do you disagree that there are people here who dislike the military? Actually Jim wasn't a flower child he was actually the exact opposite.His opposition to the Viet-Nam war was actually tied to his dislike of his own father who was I believe a naval officer. Sorry if I offended you in any way I just happen to share OMCs stance on our guys in uniform. Namaste

You should rally listen to the rest of that song you quoted."Your ballroom days are over baby,night is drawing near,shadows of the evening,crawl across the years,Ya walk across the floor with the flowers in your hair,try to tell me no one understands,trade in your hours for a handful of dimes" Opinions on this particular song vary some people think he was talking about the ratio of old to young,Of pot smokers to non pot smokers,Of blacks to whites.But one thing is pretty clear he is taking a shot at both the establishment and the flower children.He really believed that the flower children had sold out.

I thought by the tone of your earlier post you were agreeing with someone who was tsk-tsk-ing those of us who don't support the military system ... for fear of how right wingers may perceive the dem ideal ... which, sorry, is pretty fuckin' weak.

I think the people here who dislike the military are very genuine.There are too many others for it to be a plant though I don't doubt that plants on this message board exist.They do tend to liven things up or shit stir if you will.

The OP posts LOTS of things that cause that feeling in some of us.

The right are retards, there is no point in even listening to them. :shrug:

Not very PC, you might want to update your vocabulary.

Sorry, I will choose my words more wisely in the future. But keep in mind that even the word "idiot" is also originally a medical term describing someone with a pathologically low IQ. If you want, you may find something politically incorrect in any wording, IMO.

Just take it as a proof of my non-plantedness: I don't conform with the "political correctness" that is so despised among right wingers ;).

I think they are "retards" as in "morons", "idiots" or "imbeciles". No offense against our fellow handicapped citizens meant.

It's because the people are in uniforms.

And uniforms broadcast uniformity.

If you are a creative, free spirit, then anything that is uniform would make your stomach turn.

People who wear uniforms are not creative -- they are uniform.

You're suggesting that people who wear uniforms can't be creative?