Someone in my family is Republican, and I have a question for some of you...

Let me set up the scenario.

My not-so-close relative (not a father or brother) is attractive, highly educated, makes very good money, but he's an @-hole.

Today, for example, in conversation with me, he called Obama, "Osama." He's fond of calling poor people, "welfare queens." He's glad this country destroyed Iraq. Why? Because he feels this country should control the world. I guess he's okay to family members, but he's downright cruel and vicious when it comes to the most helpless of people in this country. I shudder to think how he'd be if a disabled son or daughter were born to him. Oh and yes, he considers himself VERY Christian. He became a born again Christian and you'd be surprised how devout he looks when he prays. Is it clear that I dislike him? Oh and yes, he's a Republican.

Now, here's my question and it's primarily directed to those of you who have admitted that if you cannot have your candidate as the nominee, you will not vote in the general election. My question is this:

Secretly, in your heart of hearts, if it came down to having this particular relative of mine as YOUR president, or one of the Dem candidates you don't like as your president, which one would you secretly prefer? Oh and if you don't mind, please provide 1 or 2 examples to justify your response? Thanks!

But is usually done with a cultural/collective denial of said person's heinous traits: "you just don't know him/her that well," "they're only 'like that' at work, etc" Time after time I've seen soulless shitbags, men and women, placed upon pedestals for encompassing the very heartless characteristics that those who placed them up there fervently deny exist, or that they're actually attracted to.

To respond to your question: if the dem candidate will in reality carry out policies that stem from the same profits over people mindset...then what's the point?

Is it a person's fault for not voting when they come to realize that maybe the candidate in the Democratic party that one cannot vote for MIGHT HAVE SPENT SOME time adjusting to the progressive ideals that they are missing?

No one who is thinking of not voting ever forced any of the candidates into selling out.

......"placed upon pedestals for encompassing the very heartless characteristics that those who placed them up there fervently deny exist, or that they're actually attracted to".....

That's exactly what these people are like.

As to your question:
"If the dem candidate will in reality carry out policies that stem from the same profits over people mindset...then what's the point?"

I agree with you. I wish we were living in a socialized country. However, we're not living in a socialist country tho many things about it are socialist: fire departments, libraries, the way the corporate rich get bailed out by our taxes, social security. I agree that corporations are out of hand and must be controlled and curtailed. However, it's a process. You want to go from no control to all control. Having a Dem in office will begin the process, but WE have to do the rest of it by demanding that laws be changed and ensuring that we never get fooled into voting for a Reagan, or in refusing to vote thereby putting in a Bush.

That's my answer to you. It's not going to be fast like you want. It's going to be a slow change, and will require you and me.

It has always been and continues to be highly effective ... something that someone whose views had and still have a great deal of influence on my own perceptions of how power operates, Noam Chomsky, still advocates despite those who dismiss the one on one approach insistence of its non effectiveness. To use him as the example, when he gave anti-war/dissident talks during the early stages of the Vietnam aggression, it would just be a few people in someone's house or church, but despite that his world renown views/books not having any mainline attention here in the U.S. the crowds at his talks began to grow over the years ... largely due to word of mouth/dissident literature.

It's easy, even for myself, to become cynical, but it good to remember that despite how bad conditions are, enormous steps have been made {in terms of raising awareness} in opposing centralized corporate/state power.

Would you care to join it?

It's this:

http://citizenclassaction.com/index.php?option=com_fron...

It's a collecting of 10,000 names for the purpose of asking the ACLU to file a lawsuit against the media for manipulating campaigns and shutting out candidates (Kucinich, for example, Edwards too to a degree).

You can't draw a parallel that implys the Republican candidates are just like this guy unless you have specific incidents that point to that! Jeez! We'd be outraged if they did the same thing to one of our candidates--be consistent! We're already complaining that Hillary's people tried to imply Obama was some black drug dealer--how is what you're doing any different?

You paint with a too-broad brush--and that's unfair.

This relative of yours is never going to run for anything. That would mean hiding what he really thinks, and it doesn't look like he has that skill mastered yet.

You brought him up. Let's rail on him for awhile! I'm tired of the infighting, exhausted really. I'm not an Obama or Clinton supporter. Clinton I will reluctantly support, should she get the nom, and maybe give up a couple of Saturdays of canvassing for her. Obama? After McClurkin Closet Case? I'll just hold my nose and vote for him, but no other activity (including $ donations) I usually do in election years for that turncoat.

... will be known.

You are SO WRONG!

When a certain someone I will not name runs for office in 4 years, my relative will be part of his campaign. So you ARE TOTALLY WRONG. His idea is to be named to a high capacity position with this particular person.

I stand corrected. Any way you can get him a hooker and take pics?:P

The best we can do is to counter his message with our own, and whether we think we're not doing it posting here, we actually are. I've honed my arguments and skills just by reading the very smart people on DU, and there are a lot of them. If we stay vigilant, your cousin and his candidate won't stand a chance of winning anything... at least I have to believe that. Otherwise, why bother with it all?

However, my point was that he's not nice, he's an up and coming successful GOPer and we'd better vote Dem for now if we want to (in the future) at least have a fighting chance against these @-holes.

human being.

Ask him how many people Jesus made fun of while he was here. I think you should make it clear to him that his nastiness towards the less fortunate should not be expressed in earshot of you.

I've asked him if Jesus was a stockbroker, or CEO. He laughs. I once asked him if Jesus would call someone a "welfare queen" and he answered, "Why not? If they're living off welfare, why not?"

similar family tree.

:cry: Poor us!

P.S. - The worst I think I've heard a family member say is, "We should just nuke the entire Middle East and turn it into a parking lot." And they mean it. :scared:

First, you assume that people who "cannot have their candidate" are being petulant if they don't vote for whomever the democratic party candidate turns out to be. That's exactly the lockstep loyalty that typifies the GOP, at least up until this election. That isn't an admirable trait, IMO. Americans should NOT hold their noses and vote for the lessor evil. That simply reinforces the behavior of parties and other institutions that work to run candidates who poorly represent voters' interests.

Second, it's a false choice because there are numerous other candidates available-- not just dems and repubs. One of those might represent a voter's interests better than the dem candidate.

I don't think there are many folks here who are likely to vote for the republican candidate for president in 2008-- that simply isn't a significant enough demographic on DU to be concerned about, IMO. Some folks will vote for the democratic candidate and some won't. The latter might vote for someone other than the dem or the republican, or they might choose not to vote. That's their choice, made for their reasons, and it isn't anyone else's job to criticize them for it. Each of us gets one vote. It's ours, to use as we see fit, including not using it. That's democracy.

There's a good reason we have secret ballots. It's to prevent precisely the sort of voter coercion that goes on subtly here on DU-- when a voter casts their vote, they do it privately, without out any critics, or even reasonable persons, looking over their shoulders to question their motives or their actions.

Please try not to take this personally. I'm really directing this not exclusively at you, but at all those who, like the Naderites, are more interested in punishing the country than in improving it.

You said:

"First, you assume that people who "cannot have their candidate" are being petulant if they don't vote for whomever the democratic party candidate turns out to be. That's exactly the lockstep loyalty that typifies the GOP, at least up until this election. That isn't an admirable trait, IMO.

My answer is that I'm a person that likes to get things done. My "thing" to get done these days is protect the elderly, who are usually among the first victims of the GOP and right now are suffering greatly. Many of them barely have enough money for food, and cannot afford medications, they're weak, helpless, depressed, suicidal, suffering the most horrific lives. They were doing "okay" until Reagan. Reagan set in motion a very evil machinery which continued through Clinton because Clinton had to deal with a country where almost all governmental offices from school boards all the way up were filled with GOP, where even Dems had gone right wing, and more than 1 of his terms he was dealing with a GOP Congress which impeached him.

For you to play little tantrum games consisting of "If you don't vote for MY candidate, then I'm not voting AT ALL!" or "I'm voting for someone that will hand the election to the GOP" is not (contrary to what you think I believe), petulant. What it is, is downright egotistical, selfish and narcissistic. Those qualities *ARE* the GOP's central qualities. And that *is* lockstep GOP behavior.

So when you tell me that I'm trying to deny you your pleasures to throw a tantrum to hurt this nation because you're angry, my response (if I were not being polite) would have to be one of F-U because frankly, you're being selfish wanting EXACTLY what you want, and if you don't get it, by golly, you don't care a rat's ass if the elderly are suffering.

So I'm sorry I'm not more understanding about your intense "suffering" at not being able to see your candidate nominated.

When you are more interested in the suffering of the elderly (interested enough perhaps not to sacrifice them to your whims), perhaps I'll show a little bit more compassion about your longings to see your candidate nominated.

Actually, I jest...my brother is not a Christian (except for that confirmation thing he went through as a kid). But he's got more money than God, as they say. Worse yet is the way he came about his wealth; while he works hard now and genuinely built a strong, thriving business, he got his start by ripping off his siblings and getting a death-bed transference of the family business from my father. Has he made peace with himself? Who knows. But he now lives in a house that is nothing less than obscene. There are rooms in his house I doubt anyone but his decorator has ever seen. Just him, his wife and two kids. He couldn't wait to show me the four-car garage and the Porsche Turbo Carerra he bought himself for his birthday. It was on a heated garage floor, next to his Audi, BMW convertible and his wife's Lexus SUV.

His house is so frikkin large he could house a couple of other families and never even see them. This is for FOUR PEOPLE. His "kitchen tv" is a 50" plasma flat screen. I was just sick. And he thinks just as you not-so-close relative does; he's convinced everyone is out to rip him off, take his stuff. He pays too much in taxes. The fucking poor people are ruining his Utopian existence, although no poor person would be able to drive into his neighborhood without Neighborhood Watch dragging them off to the pokey.

Mind you, we grew up in the same house. With the same parents, ostensibly the same values. We weren't poor by any means, our folks did very well by us. But my brother went in a different direction. He felt a sense of entitlement, that all the bling was meant to be his just because Dad had some money. He grew up a hater. A stinking rich hater. The guy I grew up with and play sandlot baseball with...I don't even know the guy.

Of course, he's a hard-core Republican who now claims to be a Libertarian. Those votes for Bush? Nah...didn't count. He wasn't offered a better choice, that's all.

He probably counted the silverware when we left, even though we do pretty well ourselves. But we could fit our house in his four-car garage.

I'd vote for ANY Dem before I'd vote for your relative or my brother.

.

These people are horrible! Their biggest interest is money. Some of them (like Cheney, I think) not only like money, but they're also sadists. Disgusting people, really. I agree. I'd never vote for my relative or your brother. Wonder what they'd be like on a desert island? They'd probably end up killing one another!

People will deny it but people with these attitudes stood by while millions were led to their death.

The Good Germans participated by claiming superiority over those either less fortunate or who didn't look like them. (Sound familiar)

I would for the Democratic nominee.

They're not good.

I am voting for the Democrat.

In a past lifetime, I worked for a local GOOP "mover and shaker". Every election he'd parade around with buttons touting his latest pet candidate (usually a rich chamber buddy of his) and laugh off every other candidate...especially Democrats. One election he was so obnoxious, my wonderful wife had had enough...she walked up to him and said "ya know, you've sold me on voting this year...and now I know who I'm gonna support...all the people you don't! I love the thought that my vote makes your vote worthless...and that doesn't count the members of my family who will also vote that makes sure your vote counts even less". His jaw dropped and looked like he'd been kicked in his non-existant balls. It was a great line that I've used several times on GOOPers who get on their high horse and need to get taken down a notch.

:hug:

In todays just fabulous economy, that reality may not be all that far away for him.

He, like most repukes are the "learn by doing" types, because in their world, "you can't believe everything you read". So he will learn to live when he's broke.

... .they help one another find great jobs, great bonuses, scratch one another's backs. Plus they stick together to elect people. They work slowly and steadily and end up taking over everything. Before you know it, like a cancer, they're spread all over the place. They are truly like a cancer.