Stop thinking gas is going to go back down

I can not believe how many posts I've read saying "It's only up because X oil company is greedy".

No, it's not just because a company is greedy. This situation is FAR more complex than that. Consumption is through the roof. We are in the middle of an occupation of a foreign nation designed completely to TAKE THAT NATIONS OIL BY FORCE to support that consumption. Your oil is being brought to you at the cost of blood, and that is NEVER cheap.

We need to be telling people gas prices will NEVER go down again, because the fact is they won't. People need to stop hanging on to their SUVs and Hummers on the hopes that congress will "investigate the greedy oil company and then gas prices will go back down". Not going to happen folks, because that's only a SMALL part of the problem.

We need massive conservation now. Yes - actual CHANGE and WORK on our part if we want gas prices to go down. Thinking congress is going to be able to solve the problem for you with "investigations" is a fools dream and will only delay the actual work we need to do.

*If you haven't already done so, replace EVERY incandescent light bulb in your house with a CFL one. If EVERY house in america did this our energy use would literally drop by HUGE numbers.

*If you haven't already done so, stop buying SUVs and Hummers.

*If you haven't already done so, car pool to work.

*If you haven't already done so, consider a bike or walking to places that are in close distance.

*If you haven't already done so, don't use the AC in your car and put down the window even if it is 100 degrees outside.

I could go on.

If you think to your self on any of these points "that's too big of a change for me" then you your self are contributing to the high gas prices - like the big oil company YOU are being GREEDY because you can't stop consuming for the greater good.

As long as people keep using fuel in a non-effecient way this problem will continue to get out of hand. It's time to face reality people.

.

Bush et al had to know about this. Yet, not once have I heard "peak oil" mentioned by anyone in this administration! :grr:

What the hell do you think Iraq is about? Don't tell me you believed the WMD lies?

Of course no one is mentioning it. For one thing, it casues panic and causes people to feel bad. BSing people about freedom and WMDs make everyone feel good.

For another thing, which sounds better?

"People of the United States, we know we are going to experience an energy issue. So we have decided to go on a bloody international quest to invade other nations and steal their oil. It will cost thousands of US soldiers lives and destroy the lives of millions of civilians."

OR

"People of the United States, the evil nation of Iraq is producing WMDs to kill you with. Fear not, however, as we have already devised a brilliant plan to save us all. Just let us handle everything and we will protect you, and bring freedom and democracy around the world"

the war in iraq was deliberately engineered by two oil men, one a former halliburton CEO who still had halliburton interests, at a time when halliburton was close to bankruptcy, because of the asbestos issues, to disrupt the flow of oil in the middle east and to RAISE oil prices

there was never any serious attempt to secure iraq's oil and use it to LOWER prices, that was just a lie for the very stupid GOPer's who used to chant, "kick their ass and take their gas," a chant that we don't hear any more, because even the most feeble minded among them now realize that they were scammed

i'm always surprised when a so-called democrat rolls out that old story, it was never our story, and it was never true, the facts are not really in dispute here

if we were so worried about running out of oil, and if the purpose was to secure lots and lots of oil, instead of fighting a war in the middle east, there would have been a lot more focus on drilling here in north america and also on repairing our issues with mexico and latin america -- the fact that we've done everything we could to piss off latin america should tell you right there how "sincere" the bush gov't is about making sure we have reliable access to strong supplies of oil -- hell at times bush has even managed to piss off the canadians, and this is not that easy to do

start by looking at clinton gov't and price of oil, and bush gov't and price of oil, and you may conclude that it's more important to get out there and work for a change of gov't than to yell at somebody who can't ride a bike

BushCo == Big Oil. Has been that way for a looooong time. Jr. is just the latest installment of that. Poppy's been an Oil Man and it goes back further than that.

BushCo will not talk about peak oil, and they will do not one damn thing to stop the oil crisis. They, and their friends in the oil industry (from the oil corporation to the middle-eastern countries) are laughing all the way to the bank. And, since McCain will get most of his money for his Presidential run, and should he get the Oval Office, expect more of the same from him.

The upside is, all this pain is, basically short term. Eventually there will be A) no one wanting to play these games anymore, B) no more oil, or C) no more money to buy oil. And all these cats will have very bad days for generations.

We, the ants of the world, will survive. It will suck for a while, but that will end. They, on the other hand, will have bigger issues. Imagine the line of people wanting to kick Saudi Arabia's ass when they run out of oil and have nothing to bargain with. Yikes.

discussions from being made public. I guess now we know what was being discussed.

traced to the very definition of peak oil. This has been foreknowledge for decades and now that the time has come, you get SCOTUS-protected super-secret meetings to address it by stealing oil and conquering the Middle East.

And guess what? They're mission is NOT yet accomplished.

(and there's really no better word for it) of Iraq, and his hard-on for wanting to do the same thing to Iran. Not that they would ever tell the truth about that - they had to dress it up with all of the absolute horseshit reasons (WMDs, imminent threat, Saddam berry-berry bad man, free the poor oppressed Iraqis, etc.)...

Walk or Ride a bike where practical. Take mass transportation or car pool. Get a scooter or motorcycle. Make sure your next car gets good economy. Takes steps to improve the fuel efficiency of your current vehicle.

1) Make sure your tires are properly inflated. Under inflated tires can be a significant drag on your fuel economy.

2) Empty that trunk- All that extra weight costs you at the pump

3) Try to use the brakes less- In other words roll to stops, rather than braking when you get to them

4) Slow down- Wind resistance goes up exponentially, so the faster you go on the highway the lower the economy

5) In the warmer months open the windows when you first get in the car, to let the hot air out. Then let close them and let the AC cool the car down. This will take some of the load off the AC (which drains your fuel economy). On the highway though, it's better to use the AC than to leave the windows open (despite what you might has seen on myth busters, unfortunately in that challenge their lack of an engineering background showed).

6) You can get a roughly 5% boost in you efficiency if you use the oil additive Tufoil http://www.tufoil.com / . I have been using the stuff for decades. It's the only additive that uses Teflon (this is hard stuff to work with, which is why others don't use it). I first started using it after a college professor talked about it, he knew the guy that invented the stuff. It's also good for extending the life of your engine.

7) Consider a hybrid for your next vehicle purchase (especially if you do a lot of city driving).

8) Don't idle- If you are going to idle for more than 2 minutes, shut off the car

9) Try to bunch your errands together- A warmed up engine is more efficient than a cold one. So try and do your driving errands all together so that you maximize the amount of time you are driving with a fully warmed up engine.


10) Consider walking, public transportation, motorcycle or bicycle where possible. All are more efficient alternatives. The more each of us save, the better off we all are.

11) Easy on the gas peddle. The faster you accelerate the more fuel you consume.

speed to the stop light. Quit being idiots!!

We all watch far enough ahead to stop in a reasonable ammount of time. If on the other hand, you start looking farther and considering the traffic lights, you can often coast to the light and there is a good chance it will turn green before you have to stop. That burns the same fuel as not having to stop at all.

And yeah, I've slowed down on the road. Too bad most people around me haven't.

I've stated this before, and been hammered for it.

Ban drive-through fast food for everyone who doesn't have a handicapped placard in their car.

I've seen lines at fast food places that went out of the parking lot, and into the street. How much gas does letting your car idle for 20 minutes use? How much is used when MILLIONS of cars do it each day at lunch/dinner time?

That said, the price of gas isn't going down. Ever. We need to get used to that.

the more inefficiently we will use the fuel.

I find it both funny and sad that people are bitching about oil now. I bitched about it in 2001, no one gave a fuck. Now? oh yeah.

In 2005, I finally quit putting up with it. Now I:

- Ride my bike to work or take the bus/train when its wet.
- ride my bike for errands under 5 miles, unless I need a large object (i.e. a microwave oven)
- improved the insulation in my home
- kept the heat in my home low in the winter, and warm in the summer. I have sweaters and shorts, no need to have all that heating and cooling.
- changed my light bulbs to CFLs
- bought a hybrid car, drive it only when really necessary

Net result? savings of thousands of dollars each year, lost 50 lbs and counting, life is less stressful.

Its beautiful when you check out of stupidity.

Forcing the government to invest in research and subsidies for renewable energy, not in corrupt wars and subsidies to extend the petro-culture.

Changing individual energy consumption is a small start but won't get us to a post-petroleum world.

Taking our country back from the neo-con oiligarchs, and using the collective weight of citizen solidarity is the only hope for real change.

I have been bike commuting for two years now, BTW. Did the florescent light bulb deal, too. It hasn't caused gas prices to go down, unfortunately.

because almost no one is doing it yet. EVERYONE has to change in order to accomplish this.

"Ownership" of natural resources must change. "Ownership" of our lives must change.

Corporate fascism must be destroyed for real change to occur.

Me riding my bike to work, while the oligarchs ride in limousines, will not cause change to occur.

Yes, conservation is key, but it will not Change anything until the corrupt power elite are stripped of their power over The People.

That's when WE THE PEOPLE can have a real effect on the future. THAT'S "Change I Can Believe In".

and the repubs are out of power, what will your new excuse not to ride a bike be six months from now?

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I would think it has kept the price cheaper, even if it's just a fraction of a thousandth of a decimal point. That's why conservation is a losers game. I know, I gave up my bike a little over a year ago and walk pretty much everywhere I go. So, that's like another fraction of a thousandth of a decimal point.

"Forcing the government to invest in research and subsidies for renewable energy"

Why would that...

"Taking our country back from the neo-con oiligarchs"

...change that? We're just going to end up fighting Big Solar.

We must all just kill ourselves? Doing nothing IS suicidal.

If The People return The Power to themselves, only then we can save ourselves.

It will take more than conservation, although a radical restructuring of lifestyle is critical, of course.

And, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a cynic at heart. Therefore, I don't believe our culture is capable of any kind of radical change that requires any type of effort. Our culture is lazy, selfish, and mean. These things are not conducive to the types of change required to take back the "power" as you say.

Sadly, taking back control is easy. Walk more, ride a bike/bus/train more, carpool, take local vacations, buy locally grown food, change your light bulbs and upgrade the insulation in your home, turn down the A/C, turn down the heat and put on a sweater.

This stuff is easy and only costs a modicum of sweat. but I know of no one on my block doing any of this besides me and my upstairs neighbours.

Sad, really sad.

"We must all just kill ourselves?"

No, but most of us wouldn't be here without cheap energy. So that's where things will get interesting.

"Doing nothing IS suicidal"

I never said do nothing. However, I'd rather let different people try different things to see what best fits them in their particular circumstances. The universal forcing of anything, in my mind, is how we got into this mess. I don't know that it will get us out. I'm not even sure there is an answer.

go to the top of this page and check out the name of this site, then click on a few links and check out what this site is all about

it's for progressive democrats

i can guarantee you that every progressive democrat here has already done the obvious things to save money and gas and has probably been doing it for years, in some cases DECADES

it is just plain insulting to tell intelligent adults "give up on justice, give up on a future, give up on standing up to entities that are cheating you, and just go ride a bike"

if you were writing on a site for little kids, this sort of post would be ok, but it's cruel, rude, and patronizing when you're writing on a forum for already educated and progressive adults

let's face reality, people, indeed -- it's true that the price won't go down as long as we tolerate "leaders" who start wars to disrupt supply and provide price support to the oil industry, it's true that prices won't go down as long as we parrot astro-turf from the oil industry about peak oil and pretend that we're running out of oil at a time when there is no problem with supply whatsoever (and even the saudis admit that there's plenty of supply), it's true the price won't go down as long as americans have this "can't do" attitude of "oh woe we can't stand up to these people we have to pay whatever extortionate fee they charge"

how many years have you been riding your bike and has it done one thing to bring down the price of fuel, has it done one thing to stop global warming? um, i don't think so

if you think oil and gas are a limited resource, then it needs to be nationalized and distributed by the gov't in a fair manner, as is done in some other countries, it cannot and should not be mined, refined, and distributed simply on the basis of profit

billions -- TRILLIONS -- that have gone as profits to share holders and CEO's and the wealthiest individuals should be held in trust by the gov't and turned to develop new sources of energy, a manhattan style project type effort to include scientists and engineers from a variety of industries, not just the oil and gas industry

if all you do is car pool then you have wasted your time, if you really believe the oil is running out, then you don't just say "oh i'll car pool" (saving not one drop of oil but instead switching it to be used by other, wealthier people) -- you have to demand a political solution because individual solutions are just self righteousness and masturbation and don't do even one thing to solve the problem -- it matters not if you car pool, it matters not if the poorest among us are forced out of their jobs because they can't afford to go to work, because the rich guy will continue to fill up his yacht -- IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT OIL IS LIMITED, then there must be nationalization, fair distribution/rationing


those who "can't do" and wring their hands and simply abandon the effort to bring the price down to a fair level, are the opposite of anything "progressive" by their nature, they want high prices so that a limited good can only be available to the wealthy -- to me that is morally and ethically wrong and our laws/gov't need to change so that it becomes legally wrong

yes, a difficult task, but such a change might actually accomplish something, masturbating over how great i am because i walk to the grocery store changes NOTHING

The original post was inoffensive. You were obnoxious in return.

You FAIL.

maybe stupid people need or want to be told to give up and ride a bike

i'm tired of being addressed like one of the stupid people and i'm going to object whenever i'm talked down to like a five year old

i'm an adult, sorry you're still in grammar school (as i can tell you are at an age where you still worry about "grades," friend, when you're an adult you'll know what i'm talking about)

Because I can tell from the first line it's BS.

Sorry, if you don't want to change because you your self are to GREEDY to make changes to conserve energy then you can welcome your $8/gal gas in the next year.

Keep driving that Hummer my friend. Keep telling your self your actions are OK because there really is no problem apart from greedy oil business. Whatever helps you justify your own greed and refusal to change.

that's what is so offensive about your post in the first place, you honestly don't know what DUers are about or how they live

there is no one on this site driving a hummer and if you think there is, it just shows even more how out of touch you are

i don't have to change because i was walking, car pooling, etc. from the nixon era, you changed a light bulb last night and think you changed the world -- well, you have a lot to learn my friend
but as long as you keep that mind closed and are so confident that you already know everything i guess you have to learn it the hard way

posts deliberately designed to make enemies will certainly succeed in that task and trying to insult people and treat them as children will make enemies

but that's what you wanted, isn't it?

Pay your 7.50 per gallon and be happy about it. Get on your bike or buy one of those new cars that run on vegetable oil and then get in on the vegetable oil stocks. You can't win. Give up. Opposition is futile.

I think you mean share holders. Stake holders are, basically, everybody but share holders that are involved in a corporation. Using Nike as an example: the consumer is a stake holder, the franchised sweat-shop factory filling "orders" is a stake holder. The mail room employee is a stake holder, if he/she does not own stock.

A little slip, but an important one.



You actually accomplish a lot, but its all personal accomplishments. You accomplish personal savings in the cost of gas and depreciation of your car. You accomplish certain health dividends by getting exercise. You accomplish personal satisfaction in making a positive change that is meaningful. Just not meaningful on the collective level as you pointed out.

If you want this kind of change, you're gonna need a revolution. And I don't see the American zombie waking up for that. They (rather, we) will put up with this until the very last second of the last minute of the last hour before total devistation. Then, and only then, do we Americans "wake up" and do something. $5.00 gas isn't that last second, $12 might be, but certainly not $5. $5 gas just means we hear more bitching while the civilian goes to the polls and votes for the same idiots who put them in this situation.

i am soooo tired of being lectured by scolds who have done far less than i have to work with the environment, these kiddies who have just discovered how to ride a bike are just plain pitiful, they don't know how real people live, we've been doing "personal" since nixon simply because nobody has the money to throw away

the man driving the hummer is not reading DU, and the person scolding me for driving a hummer, when i've put in more hours on bike and foot than he ever will just makes himself look a fool while creating an enemy he didn't need to create

at some point we MUST demand a change of government, it's a matter of survival

i've done all the personal stuff, paid off house, ability to walk to the store and so on, and as we who have been doing this stuff for years know...it ain't working, the world is getting warmer, the wars in the middle east and elsewhere continue

we need a change of government and nothing less

i would hope we could accomplish this peacefully, as frankly violent revolution is quite wasteful of the earth's resources also but if we continue to kid ourselves and do nothing (riding the bike and doing personal stuff is at the end of the day, really doing nothing) then the likelihood of finding a peaceful solution certainly decrease over time

Because of our lobby system. Corporations now rule DC. And while politics is funded by big interest lobbying, they will continue to rule DC. Obama or Clinton will be paralyzed before they can make any meaningful change. And McCain will be *'s 3rd term.

If we want the kind of change you talk about it will happen only one way, civilly. that is to throw the bums in Congress out and get real people in there while removing corporate involvement in out government. The only way we can remove corporate involvement is to remove "personhood" from the corporation. Doing so will have gigantic tax ramifications as corporations will, probably, not have to pay taxes any more. Which will hurt our central government greatly. Oddly, that would bring us closer to Grover Norquists dream of drowning and bathtubs. I never understood why they didn't champion that, maybe its because Grover was lying when he said all that bullshit.

Anyway, that's the kind of change that's needed, and I don't see that happening in the near future. So what are we left with? Doing what we can, when we can.

How do you not know Obama is not a real person? Or Edwards? Does Obama's 1.5 million individual donors mean anything to you? If not, what would indicate to you that someone is "real" vs another bought and sold Corporate Candidate?

It's all governments. Just like a single person doing X or Y doesn't do much, changing a government won't do much.

All civilization since Sumer and China have cut their forests, depleted their top-soil and then conquered as much as resources they can waste and then collapsed with enviromental catastrophy - entropy wins eventually, every time. The only difference with current global capitalistic civilization is that now it is not happening just locally but on planetary scale.

Best practical idea so far that I've found is starting an ecovillage or moving to one, learning permaculture. IMHO ecovillages are not about survival (which is a dead idea) but about planting the seeds of post-civilized culture.

as "shills of Big Oil", simply for pointing out what some have known for many years!! Too many people chose to keep their heads in the sand, and clearly, some continue to do it to this day!

"it is just plain insulting to tell intelligent adults "give up on justice, give up on a future, give up on standing up to entities that are cheating you, and just go ride a bike"

if you were writing on a site for little kids, this sort of post would be ok, but it's cruel, rude, and patronizing when you're writing on a forum for already educated and progressive adults"

Children are wise and learn and create naturally. Then they get conditioned by consumerist culture and grow up to be "educated and progressive adults" and other forms of bloated ego full of their "importance" - as just a clog in the machine of Modern Times.

What is needed is learning to do less, not more, not trying to control Nature but letting Nature heal itself and humans too - as part of Nature, not against it. Baby-steps.

all that is left is the power down followed by the die off.

And is still demonized to this day for it.

Instead we wallowed in cowardly willful ignorance and sold ourselves out to the raygun corporofascists who have robbed us blind and taken us to the precipice of disaster.

And I say that not out of scorn, but with respect.

CFLs and an anti-SUV push will be minuscule in the scheme of things. SUVs are merely symbols of our maladaptive behavior. This is a beast with many heads.

== Energy Crisis
- Peak Oil
- Forced transition to a coal/biofuel energy base
- Gaming of petrochemical supply economics to maximize profits (incl. "contango" effect)

== Food Crisis
- Disastrous soil depletion
- Unknown climate change effects on agriculture
- Genetic engineering rush-to-market hazards
- Inflation in food prices due to shift to agricultural biofuel monopolization
- Destructive nature of factory farming, monoculture, inhumane animal husbandry

== Infrastructure Crisis
- Need to de-suburbanize, rebuild small towns and exurban communities
- Need to revitalize local and national rail
- End of the "car culture"
- Repair of aging urban infrastructure - extensive
- Energy efficiency upgrades required
- Huge construction projects to produce ten million windplants, 5000 nuclear reactors, or some mix, by 2030

== Climate Change
- Property losses from storms, flooding, sea level rise
- Possibility of Heinrich (abrupt cooling) climate event in reaction to human-forced warming
- Forced evacuations and mass migrations
- Reduced dependability of agricultural area yields
- Mass extinctions -- era of die-offs

== Economic upheavals
- Much greater public investment required
- Probable demand destruction in several markets
- Probable financial crises

== Political upheavals
- Name yer socioeconomic poison
- New Hitlers, Stalins, L. Ron Hubbards, Ted Nugents
- Empowerment of NGOs (non-governmental organizations)
- Terrorism, religious and mobster control of states, Sudan-style anarchy

== Social and Theological revolt
- Bibles published in Klingon
- Quaker Rap music
- Dogs and cats cohabiting
- The Koran in the nude
- Buddhism for Coffee Achievers
- The Lion and the Lamb both shooting smack
- Hollywood starlets sexless and in rehab
- Satan begins psychotherapy for anger management issues

I am certain that I left out many items.

Life may become like Monty Python's "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch">Four Yorkshiremen" sketch -- for the rich. And for the poor? Well, there may not be many poor left by then.

--p!

More likely, to profit from consumption by controlling a very large part of the supply, thereby driving up prices as much as the controlling seller wish.

Can't afford a new hybrid, sorry. But we just don't drive much, anyway. Never did. But I do use a/c in the house in 100 degree weather. That's my main vice, so judge away.