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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:16 PM
Original message
Allergic to the Internet! (Group Wants to Ban Wi-Fi in Public Buildings)
http://kob.com/article/stories/S451152.shtml?cat=517


Group wants Wi-Fi banned from public buildings

A group in Santa Fe says the city is discriminating against them because they say that they're allergic to the wireless Internet signal. And now they want Wi-Fi banned from public buildings.

Arthur Firstenberg says he is highly sensitive to certain types of electric fields, including wireless Internet and cell phones.

"I get chest pain and it doesn't go away right away," he said.

Firstenberg and dozens of other electro-sensitive people in Santa Fe claim that putting up Wi-Fi in public places is a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

The city attorney is now checking to see if putting up Wi-Fi could be considered discrimination.

But City Councilor Ron Trujillo says the areas are already saturated with wireless Internet.

"It's not 1692, it's 2008. Santa Fe needs to embrace this technology, it's not going away," Trujillo said.

The city attorney hopes to have a legal recommendation by the end of the month.

http://kob.com/article/stories/S451152.shtml?cat=517

I guess multiple chemical sensitivities are so last year...
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Holy fuck that's stupid.
How would the body have a disordered immune response to a wave of energy? That's like saying "I'm allergic to sound."
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blue sky at night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. wish I could dismiss this that easy....
you talk tough, but if you did a little research into this issue, you might reconsider.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Then show me a bit of legit scientific information suggesting a mechanism
Edited on Fri May-23-08 10:31 PM by LeftyMom
or even establishing the phenomenon. I'd prefer a peer-reviewed journal, but if you have another source of similar merit, I'll certainly take a look.

There can't be a valid ADA claim without any evidence that the disability requiring accommodation *exists.*
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blue sky at night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
49. they said the same about cigarettes...
but of course by the time the "evidence" came out it was too late for MILLIONS of dead people. I am talking about doubt, do you really think any research on this will be funded, or reach the light of day?
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. There is a very simple double blind study
that can be performed under control situations. It'd probably cost about $500 to do.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. My brother is allergic to many sounds
Edited on Fri May-23-08 11:02 PM by SpiralHawk
...causes him pain.

Just because one person is insensitive to feeling the wi fi fields, doesn't make them negligible.

I can often feel wi fi vibes -- and they are disturbing in a subtle way. Fortunately, I manifest no ill effects.

Like you.

So far.

But tomorrow is another day...
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. That's not an allergy. An allergy is an immune response.
If you can sense wifi, please contact the randi foundation immediately, there's a cool million in it if you can demonstrate that ability in a simple test.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Randi is a right-wing materialist with an agenda
Edited on Sat May-24-08 05:07 AM by SpiralHawk
Hardly an independent or trustworthy source...

I cite my brother's pain (not allergy) with certain sounds (waves of energy), and me (and others I know) with wi fi (waves of energy), as personal, anecdotal examples of sensitivity -- not as some ultimate proof.

But after considering what the republicons have done to 'science,' I am more inclined to trust my own perceptions than to trust what the Industry and so-called government claim.

No one is going to argue me out of my own direct perceptions.

But I am not about to argue that anyone else should or shouldn't be concerned. The evangelical approach, in my book, is an assault on human free will. I am just reporting my own experience. You, or Randi, or anyone else, are free to kiss off my (and hundreds of other people's) personal reports, and to soak up all the microwave and wi fi vibes you want.

P.S. The government has used our tax money to develop all kinds of ENERGY WAVE weapons -- including tasers and sound canons, etc. So I fail to understand how anyone can claim that energy waves cannot impact humans.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I've seen Randi called a lot of things but how on Earth is he "right-wing"
Edited on Sat May-24-08 05:13 AM by cyborg_jim
Seriously?

No one is going to argue me out of my own direct perceptions.


Well if you think they're infallible...

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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. No need to put words (waves of energy) in my mouth
Edited on Sat May-24-08 07:52 AM by SpiralHawk
I made no claim of infallibility. I just told you what I feel, and what I understand about it. Once again, you are free to kiss it off, but you are not free to distort it.

As for Randi, he espouses the main and most damaging underlying tenet of the right wing: materialism. That's my view, and like you, I have a right to my own experience, a right to respect my own interpretation of my own experience, and the right to place my view (based on my experience and interpretation) before others for their consideration or for their kiss off.

I'm not selling anything - though you seem to be -- I'm just offering an atom of information: one man's experience.

You are welcome to bask in your wi fi, microwaves, cell phone radiation. I do not challenge your right to treat your body in whatever way your choose: eat organic tofu, guzzle high-fructose corn syrup, whatever: that's your right. I claim, and exercise, the same right. And my direct experience (altogether human) and my reflection on my experience, guides me to recognize the power and influence of wi fi and other "waves of energy," and to respond to that recognition with my own expression of common sense and prudence.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. You said, "no one is going to argue me out of my perceptions,"
Edited on Sat May-24-08 07:31 AM by cyborg_jim
You "saw what you saw," and that's that.

That kinda indicates to me that you don't think for a moment that you, "saw what you didn't see," i.e. that you may have made a mistaken conclusion about what you saw. That's the very basis of illusion. If you accept you are not infallable then you accept that you are susceptible to illusion.

As for Randi, he espouses the main and most damaging underlying tenet of the right wing: materialism.


Are we talking philosophical or economic? Because those are two entirely different beasts.

And my direct experience (altogether human) and my reflection on my experience, guides me to recognize the power and influence of wi fi and other "waves of energy," and to respond to that recognition with my own expression of common sense and prudence.


I think it is prudent to know the facts.

Fact 1: people can have real physiological reactions to imagined ailments.
Fact 2: people can reach mistaken conclusions based on limited information.

Do you contend?

If not then you have to accept that rather than being a product of low-wattage microwave radiation these symptoms may be the result of the physiological reaction to the idea of being in the presence of low-wattage microwave radiation.

Do you accept this?

If so then you have to accept the possibility of "being argued out of your perceptions."
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I dislike altogether your effort to sell me on your view of my view
To me you sound like an industry pitchman -- trying to convince me that your product is somehow 'good' for me, when my own direct experience tells me otherwise.

I ain't buying, and I dislike your efforts to force me to swallow your commercial advocacy.It shows no respect for free will and individual rights to choose what 'energy waves' I consume -- even though corporations are wanting to fill the ethers of the planet with their various 'energy waves,' thus reducing every individual's range of choices.

This is still a free country -- despite the manifold corporate-republicon perversions of it, and I stand by my basic right to have an experience, and to interpret it.

I regret that this aspect of human free will is so troubling for you.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. It's got nothing to do with "free will"
It's just about what is or is not.

Waxing lyrical on whether or not it's a conspiracy of corporations to shove EM into every corner of the planet or not is irrelevant to me.

It's not about personal liberty on choosing what EM waves come into contact with your sacrad self.

It's not about me trying to "sell" you Wi Fi either since there's sure no benefit or detriment to me personally what you specifically choose to do.

Read my lips: I don't give a fuck about any of that.

For me the issue is VERY simple: is it or is it not the case that Wi Fi actually causes what you say it does.

Everything else is an irrelevancy.

If you can't get over that then there's no point attempting communication with you.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. Hello? Are you reading this thread?
I never said it caused anything. I said I can feel it.

You are wasting a lot of energy trying to tell me that I don't feel what I feel.

What are you, some kind of corporate totalitarian?

I know damn well what I feel.


Further, I am NOT trying to stop anything, or start anything.

There is no advocacy in my statements.

I am simply reporting what I feel. You apparently do have a major issue with both free will, and information that is contrary to your beliefs. Might I suggest the republicon party for you? They love that kind of attitude (which is why their approval rating is on the bottom rung).

Your evangelical campaign for Electronic Energy Waves is your business. Stop trying to shove it down my -- or anyone else's throat -- like some sort of paid corporate troll. It reeks of republicon totalitarian sensibility to me.

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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. They don't have a Republican party in my country
You are wasting a lot of energy trying to tell me that I don't feel what I feel.


Since I have done no such thing I have exerted precisely zero Joules of energy on that.

Your evangelical campaign for Electronic Energy Waves is your business.


I don't need to evangelise EM radiation - it's doing a fine job of permeating every aspect of your reality all by itself.

I suggest locking yourself in a lead lined room if it bothers you so much.
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. So what is it you are advocating..? The right of every nutcase to kill off any technology
he imagines is disturbing his aura?
:eyes:
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. The woo-woos prefer to believe all sorts of unscientific bullshit.
So Randi is "materialist". The whole fucking universe is "materialist". People's perceptions ARE fallible. That is a fact. Ask any police officer or lawyer about eyewitness testimony- it is notoriously unreliable.

Randi is not right-wing. He is a skeptic. And to woo-woos that IS right-wing.

I don't care if people believe nonsense. I just do not want public policy dictated by nonsense. There is clearly no evidence that wi-fi hurts anyone. Any claims are pure bullshit.
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. The interesting thing is...the tinfoil crowd believes these nutballs
and there are a lot of them around.
woo woo, indeed.
:eyes:
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. The plural of anecdote is not data.
Particularly when the anecdotes do not comply with anything we know about how the world works, and just generally don't make much sense.

I'm not saying that these people aren't suffering, I'm saying that I'd like to see some evidence that their illness is not psychosmatic. Fear of something that is pretty much everywhere must hold incredible power over these peoples's lives, and that fear does not appear to be based on any actual evidence that their malady exists. Maybe it does, and they need some sort of accommodation, but accommodating without first verifying that a legitimate disability exists puts the cart before the horse
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. delusions are direct perceptions, too.
:eyes:
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. allergic=immune response
immune response means wbc's responding to a biologically based particulate in/around the body. This whole allergic to sounds is utter and complete nonsense.
The immune system DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT.
But what do I know? Just a biologist with an extensive background in immunology...
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
47. Your brother is bothered by sounds, but he's not allergic to them.
I'm bothered by some sounds, too, probably many people are. But I don't see how we could ever legislate against irritating sounds.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Your example is curious.
Edited on Sat May-24-08 12:16 AM by JackRiddler
I doubt they're allergic to EM waves in the radio frequencies.

But you can be allergic to sound. I think most people in cities probably are, to some extent, gradually being driven crazy by it.

ON EDIT (to save you the trouble): Fine, an allergy is a specific immune response, whereas sound is an irritant. Try living alongside a highway for a few years and then tell us how well your body's doing, whether it's an immune response or not.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. But there's an understandable mechanism for that.
We know that constant noise causes irritation and potentially stress in many people. We can do studies and confirm that people do experience ambient noise, and that it has measurable effects on their bodies.

There is no similar evidence that wifi is detectable to the human body, let alone that it has a negative effect. Maybe it does, though I rather doubt it, but they certainly can't make an ADA case for accommodation of a disability that is quite probably psychosomatic.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. My point exactly!
So why would you ever make the comparison to sound, to which many do develop real and awful symptoms (for which allergy can serve as a metaphor).
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
40. There is no such thing as allergy to sound. Allergy is a function of the
IMMUNE SYSTEM, (ie white blood cells, antibodies, thymus, lymph nodes, yadda yadda yadda). One can only be ALLERGIC to proteins. That's what the immune system does is detect FOREIGN PROTEINS and attack them.

Oy. Stupid people with delusions of fairies on pinheads annoy hell out of me......
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You didn't read and take too much pride in your literalism.
Fine, it's not allergy.

Can sound be bad for you, o proud slayer of stupidity? (Note that this subthread was about the statement on sound, not wireless Internet.)

( & This is what you apparently didn't read: )

ON EDIT (to save you the trouble): Fine, an allergy is a specific immune response, whereas sound is an irritant. Try living alongside a highway for a few years and then tell us how well your body's doing, whether it's an immune response or not.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. People are suffering and you call them stupid?!?
Please do post the next something happens to you so we can repond with a similar comment.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. The suffering is real.
But the compassionate response is to clarify that it's a psychological, not medical, problem, so that people can get the psychological help they need.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. I have no doubt they're suffering. But their supposed explanation is rather suspect.
I have a suspicion that their problem is psychosomatic, and a manifestation of a fear of technology. The guy who has chest pains in the gov't office? Assuming his cardio exam is clean, I'd say the smart money is on panic attacks.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. I would assume that he's managed to find some place
that is absolutely free of microwave energy, say a deep cave somewhere, so that his allegation that microwaves are making him sick can be tested out.

No? You mean he's just sneezing from the juniper pollen like the rest of us are? You mean government buildings give him anxiety attacks, that he's just a garden variety anxiety neurotic?

Oh well.

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. He sounds more like a narcissistic hypochondriac......
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Why isn't this "group" suing radio and TV stations, then?
Every time you get NEAR a radio or TV tower, you're "exposed" to THOUSANDS of times more intense RF radiation than a puny 4 Watt WIFI transmitter.

"electro-sensitive people"

Yeah, right.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Not to mention that anywhere I go, my PDA happily detects
anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen wifi networks.

I doubt there's a single spot in Burlington where there isn't at least one moderate to strong wifi network. And there are precious few populated parts of this country where you can't detect some useable cell network.

Oh, you know those 120 volt wires in the wall? If you have the right receiver you can tune in their hum, too. So the question becomes: is it discriminatory for public buildings to be electrified?
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm allergic to stupidity. Somebody keep these people out of public buildings!
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. here's one

Cognitive and neurobiological alterations in electromagnetic hypersensitive patients: results of a case-control study.
Landgrebe M, Frick U, Hauser S, Langguth B, Rosner R, Hajak G, Eichhammer P.

Department of Psychiatry, Psychosomatics, and Psychotherapy, University of Regensburg, Regensburg, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Hypersensitivity to electromagnetic fields (EMF) is frequently claimed to be linked to a variety of non-specific somatic and neuropsychological complaints. Whereas provocation studies often failed to demonstrate a causal relationship between EMF exposure and symptom formation, recent studies point to a complex interplay of neurophysiological and cognitive alterations contributing to symptom manifestation in electromagnetic hypersensitive patients (EHS). However, these studies have examined only small sample sizes or have focused on selected aspects. Therefore this study examined in the largest sample of EHS EMF-specific cognitive correlates, discrimination ability and neurobiological parameters in order to get further insight into the pathophysiology of electromagnetic hypersensitivity.MethodIn a case-control design 89 EHS and 107 age- and gender-matched controls were included in the study. Health status and EMF-specific cognitions were evaluated using standardized questionnaires. Perception thresholds following single transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) pulses to the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex were determined using a standardized blinded measurement protocol. Cortical excitability parameters were measured by TMS. RESULTS: Discrimination ability was significantly reduced in EHS (only 40% of the EHS but 60% of the controls felt no sensation under sham stimulation during the complete series), whereas the perception thresholds for real magnetic pulses were comparable in both groups (median 21% versus 24% of maximum pulse intensity). Intra-cortical facilitation was decreased in younger and increased in older EHS. In addition, typical EMF-related cognitions (aspects of rumination, symptom intolerance, vulnerability and stabilizing self-esteem) specifically differentiated EHS from their controls. CONCLUSIONS: These results demonstrate significant cognitive and neurobiological alterations pointing to a higher genuine individual vulnerability of electromagnetic hypersensitive patients.

PMID: 18366821


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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Journal of psychiatry..hmm
This seems like a psychosomatic issue..ie..its all in the head.
Cite from something like JAMA, neurology or any other respectable scientific and biologic based journal and I might take you seriously.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
33. I would never expect you to take any scientific journal seriously,
Edited on Sat May-24-08 11:59 AM by SimpleTrend
if it explained something you did not believe.

Myself, I don't know. Just thought I'd look and see what I could find, whether in support or not. This particular abstract seemed good to toss out here on this thread as its own text admits past studies have not found much.

Consequently, it's probable that when these EMF highly sensitive people go to the doctor with EMF related symptoms, they're likely referred to a psychiatrist. You know, the doctor can't find anything physically wrong, so, "hysterical" and all that....
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
55. I take things seriously that deserve to be taken seriously
When someone uses the term "allergic" without even knowing what that means, Its hard to take it seriously.
And I have seen studies fo this where patients try to tell the difference between these fields on and off THEY CANT.
And why don't they react to the other STRONGER fields put out by say...THE SUN, radios, tvs, etc.
Psychosomatic is a very strong and REAL term. I beleive that these "sensitives" are having psychosomatic behavior.
I'm pretty sure there is a lawyer who is looking for an easy payout.
Again, let me see an actual PHYSIOLOGIAL data. You can show true allergic reactions with a simple fucking blood test.
Why not this? Because invisible symptoms are indicative of a make beleive disease.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. You're making the same mistake some bible thumpers make.
Edited on Sun May-25-08 10:57 AM by SimpleTrend
taking a metaphor as a literal. At least I presume the dude meant "allergy" as a metaphor for some type of unexplained reaction.

I note you've shifted the argument away from anything to do with the study I posted, and to the dude's words (in the OP's text). Shouldn't you then be replying to the OP, instead of my posting?

I don't know the answer to your questions, except to say that perhaps frequency and magnitude has something to do with it. Obviously, some forms of energy are required for life as we know it to exist: some forms of energy will kill us in a moment. Perhaps others straddle a banded gray zone between the two? Sure, the Sun gives us life here on earth, but get too close, and what happens?

Additionally, we know that most humans aren't badly effected by the sun, yet some people 'burn' under it, while others 'tan'. So where this banded gray zone is may be somewhat variable among individuals.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
59. Isn't that saying that those claiming hypersensitivity were more likely to react to a sham?
Edited on Sun May-25-08 10:31 AM by muriel_volestrangler
"Discrimination ability was significantly reduced in EHS (only 40% of the EHS but 60% of the controls felt no sensation under sham stimulation during the complete series)" - ie those claiming EHS were more likely to claim they felt something, where there was nothing there.

"the perception thresholds for real magnetic pulses were comparable in both groups (median 21% versus 24% of maximum pulse intensity)." - when there was a pulse, both the EHS subjects and the controls felt it equally.

It seems to say it's nothing to do with EM levels; that these people may have something wrong with them, but they're blaming it on EM waves in the absence of actual evidence of what it is.

Here a study that looked at various attemprs to prove it exists:

Electromagnetic hypersensitivity: a systematic review of provocation studies.

Rubin GJ, Das Munshi J, Wessely S.

Mobile Phones Research Unit, Division of Psychological Medicine, Institute of Psychiatry and Guy's, King's and St. Thomas' School of Medicine, King's College London, UK. g.rubin@iop.kcl.ac.uk

OBJECTIVES: The objectives of this study were to assess whether people who report hypersensitivity to weak electromagnetic fields (EMFs) are better at detecting EMF under blind or double-blind conditions than nonhypersensitive individuals, and to test whether they respond to the presence of EMF with increased symptom reporting. METHODS: An extensive systematic search was used to identify relevant blind or double-blind provocation studies. This involved searching numerous literature databases and conference proceedings, and examining the citations of reviews and included studies. The results of relevant studies were tabulated and metaanalyses were used to compare the proportions of "hypersensitive" and control participants able to discriminate active from sham EMF exposures. RESULTS: Thirty-one experiments testing 725 "electromagnetically hypersensitive" participants were identified. Twenty-four of these found no evidence to support the existence of a biophysical hypersensitivity, whereas 7 reported some supporting evidence. For 2 of these 7, the same research groups subsequently tried and failed to replicate their findings. In 3 more, the positive results appear to be statistical artefacts. The final 2 studies gave mutually incompatible results. Our metaanalyses found no evidence of an improved ability to detect EMF in "hypersensitive" participants. CONCLUSIONS: The symptoms described by "electromagnetic hypersensitivity" sufferers can be severe and are sometimes disabling. However, it has proved difficult to show under blind conditions that exposure to EMF can trigger these symptoms. This suggests that "electromagnetic hypersensitivity" is unrelated to the presence of EMF, although more research into this phenomenon is required.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15784787


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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. What I found most curious was that the sensitivity to stimulus
Edited on Sun May-25-08 10:55 AM by SimpleTrend
seemed more evident from its absence, rather than its presence: "only 40% of the EHS but 60% of the controls felt no sensation under sham stimulation during the complete series". So there's a 20% difference between the groups under sham stimulus, and the result is reduced (consistent with hypothesis), rather than increased (inconsistent with hypothesis), for the EHS group.

Whether the results can be replicated is a good question. Even your metastudy concludes that more study is required.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. That's a crock of shit.
Edited on Sat May-24-08 12:26 AM by seawolf
Now, I've heard there are body mods you can get that will make you more sensitive to strong electrical fields like metal detectors, so those might pick up something from wifi, but these idiots are apparently Joe and Jane (Dumber than) Average complaining. I hardly think they'd have expensive (and deliberate) body mod procedures.

I'd advise them to get a good neurological and cardiac checkup, if they're getting unexplained chest pains.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. He's not allergic to his car radio?
This is stupid pseudoscience. I suspect ambulance chasers looking for some easy bucks.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
23. Fruitcake needs to join the YFZ ranch.
Edited on Sat May-24-08 08:45 AM by ileus
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. Yes - we should embrace all that is new and never consider the consquences
wtf? Possibly this is a legitimate concern but he city official has nothing to offer but "we'll embrace this no matter what"?
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. They will be forced to consult Waldo.
:shrug:
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
34. Hypochondriac Luddites. n/t
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ironflange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
35. I suggest this thread be move to one of these groups:
Edited on Sat May-24-08 11:51 AM by ironflange
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=245

or

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=247

I'm not exactly sure which one, though.

edit: I see it's being discussed on the latter one; I should have known turtlensue would have grabbed this one and ran.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
37. I can see their point. and sympathize wholeheartedly...
I'm allergic to teevee and radio signals, satellite communications, ham radio transmission, and a mix of nitrogen and oxygen.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
38. How can these people be magically detecting and reacting to
Wi-Fi, but not radio or TV signals, or cosmic rays, or cell phone signals, or whatever the hell else is out there??

What a load of pure ummitigated nonsense.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Different frequencies
How come dogs can hear sounds that most human beings cannot?
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. Because they have cells in their inner ear with hairs that have higher resonant frequencies
Now I would like to see the mechanism that allows people to detect microwave frequencies.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. The sun puts out stronger signals than wi-fi
How come they can go out in the sunlight? And because dogs can hear different frequencies has nothing to do with this so called "sensitivity" (its not an allergy btw).
If this nuttiness were true, they would never get out of the house or be around ANY electric item. Wi-Fi is a much weaker signal than radio or TV or the SUN.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
45. arent neo-ludites grand n/t
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
46. You know, when wi-fi is used in a building I get real sick and the only
thing that helps is a good smoke!!! ;)
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
48. I'd ban it for security concerns
For both the public building and for the people who use it. All too easy to hack and walk away...

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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. I can hear the hum of electronic equipment
and ugh, spending any length of time in the electronics dept of any store can be an unpleasant experience for me. Not painful exactly, just like a heaving weight has been set down on my head. :wtf:

WiFi I don't "feel."

That doesn't mean I want to ban electronics from public places.

I don't agree w/ this. It's making the majority of people who benefit from free public WiFi cater to their condition.
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
52. Holy Neurosis.
There is a simple scientific way to test this "allergy" under controlled situations.
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
57. The city attorney is as nuts as the nimrod making the complaint!
"The city attorney is now checking to see if putting up Wi-Fi could be considered discrimination."

WTF??? You've GOT to be joking. Tell me this is a belated April Fool's article or something from The Onion.

1) The city attorney needs to grow some balls (and common sense) and dismiss this claim as the ridiculous tripe it is.

2) The delicate creature who made the complaint needs to understand that the world does not revlove around him, nor his psychoses.
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