I don't know about Baghdad, but *360* have been killed this year in a war right on our border.

Ciudad Juarez is a city right across the border from my hometown of El Paso. It has long been plagued with violence - with a notorious murder spree against prostitutes in the 1980s, and there were 300 murders in 2007.

It's only late May, and now there have already been 360 murdered. Everyone in El Paso knows about this, but it surprises and saddens me that there is ZERO coverage of this on the national news media.




http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_9408904?_requestid=12517482


El Paso has role in Juárez violence
By Erica Molina Johnson / El Paso Times
Article Launched: 05/29/2008 12:00:00 AM MDT

An end to the violence in Juárez won't be in sight until the El Paso community acknowledges its role in the problem, UTEP political science Associate Professor Tony Payan said during a panel discussion on the issue. "We tend to ignore that this often begins in El Paso," he said.
.....

Coronado said after the discussion, "There are so many people giving opinions about what's going on in Juárez, and they've never even been there. Our students come from there. This is our reality."

The panelists agreed that the violence will probably remain confined. Burns said, "We don't anticipate the violence is going to come across into the U.S. This is primarily narco against narco violence."

He said that so far this year, about 360 people have been slain in Juárez. This compares to about 300 slayings in all of 2007.

against narco violence."

So while the drugs flow across the border, the drug wars won't?

Really?

And I just read today that several more bodies were found.

It may be that those killed are mostly part of drug cartels, but with that many bullets flying there is bound to be "collateral damage".

shiite.

But my bottom line reaction to how the o.p. is framed is that it appears to invite SOMETHING that we (Dems?) or other Americans *need to do* about something going on "across the border."

And I understand the thrust of the article about "a shared problem," but in the framing of the o.p., the door is open to a significant faction here at DU who share the SEAL THE BORDER "solution" with the Minutemen.

Actually, the article identifies the "shared problem" is drug use on the U.S. side, with the violence in Mexico being among the drug suppliers. This is one of two things that Mexicans have said about the U.S. for generations: 1) If the U.S. didn't consume (ask for) drugs, Mexicans wouldn't supply them. A Dem/Lib alternative is to emphasize social services like rehab and education and prosecution of BIG traffickers, as opposed to "the War on Drugs." And 2) The business of the U.S. is making and selling weapons, then the U.S. gets all upset and concerned when other countries USE the weapons.

Again, I'm saying that the broadness of the o.p. gives aid and comfort to Minutemen types: They can conclude, "This article or poster is saying we need to DO SOMETHING, and what we want to do is to 1) seal the border, 2) INVADE like in Iraq (to spread our enlightenment over there), or 3) whatever anti-Mexican thing we can dream up."


I read the whole article at the link, and the panel included the Mexican consul, who is sure to embody the ingrained Mexican key stance of not giving the slightest encouragement to violating Mexican sovereignty.


Please, I'm seriesly being constructive. No flaming. Thanks in advance.

*******QUOTE*******

.... Payan told them a story recently shared with him by a student, who talked of other UTEP students who were taking turns snorting lines of cocaine at a graduation party.

"So this is our problem, too, on this side of the border," Payan said. "I think it's foolish of authorities and politicians and bureaucrats to deny this is a shared problem. It begins here, it goes there, and it comes back here." ....

"The possibility of you getting gunned down in Juárez is actually very low," Payan said. ....

"People who go to Mexico should be careful when they go across, but they shouldn't be afraid to visit relatives and go shopping," Apodaca said.

Payan said the violence stemmed from cartels fighting each other, from fighting within the ranks of the various cartels and from a corrupt police force. ....

**********UNQUOTE******

http://notexasborderwall.com/

My only opinion is that there is a bloodbath going on right on our border and the media is ignoring it, which is a shame.

I don't know what the US can do to help reduce the violence, but I hope it can help out in some way.

I don't see this as related to the minuteman types at all, but maybe it's because I live on the border and see those people as out-of-towners who can't deal with hearing Spanish or looney old-timers.

We El Pasoans grew up in a mostly Mexican-dominated culture (although it was politically anglo-dominated) and are not as freaked out by illegal aliens the way people from up north are.

By the same token, a lot of the PC babble from the left ("calling them illegals is MEAN!") doesn't fly here either. The presence of illegals (and a whole lot more "legals" has always been a part of life here.

The primary issue is that there is a drug-gang war going on within earshot of my hometown. The national media ignores it. Some El Pasoans contribute to it by buying drugs. All these things are facts.

If the minutemen types come up with crazy ideas in response to it, well, there is nothing I can do about that. They are fringe looneys here. Most people who think like them left El Paso long ago - and good riddance.

Even on a nationwide basis, I don't think the minutemen are all that influential. They may have a contingent in Arizona and Southern California, but we just see them as bitter losers with nothing better to do but gripe.


That is not to say I don't favor strict border enforcement. I do, and I think most El Pasoans, including naturalized Mexicans, would agree with that. I think we all also agree that building walls and hunting people like animals is not the best way to go about it. But that's really another topic for another thread.


Mainly, I just want people to know that this is going on in may backyard. They can make up their own minds what if anything should be "done" about it.

The way you phrase your post, it's as though you think bringing up ANY border-related problem is an incitement for minutemen to start lynching. How about a little more perspective?

Why is this any less important than the latest bus bombing in Israel or Pete Wentz and Ashlee Simpson's wedding?

*******QUOTE*******

1. the media is ignoring it

2. what the US can do to help reduce the violence, but I hope it can help out in some way.

3. see those people as out-of-towners who can't deal

4. The national media ignores

5. crazy ideas in response to it, well, there is nothing I can do about that

6. bitter losers

7. another topic for another thread

8. I just want people to know that this is going on

9. bringing up ANY border-related problem is an incitement

10. Why is this any less important

********UNQUOTE*******

I'll answer, just to close the loopholes, and probably this is the end of *my* participation, because when posts start repeating and not acknowledging the points made, it is a sign of ships passing in the night at a minimum, or flaming at a maximum.

To 1, 4, 8, 10: About your wanting media attention to your situation. My point was, "To what end?" What is it that you want the attention to accomplish. If this media attention were, indeed, to happen, the wide openness of your o.p. could go in ALL directions, whether to getting a) The Mexican government to intervene on its own territory (the Mexican army is at other border locations), b) the U.S.-Mexico coordinating an aid deal, c) Various nutcase "solutions".

To 3, 5, 6, 7: About the MM. You blow them off as insignificant. They might be in overt numbers, but in the past couple of years (they've gone underground this year) they showed they were the tip of the iceberg, with their non-member numbers being HUGH: Drawing from the many DIFFERENT power constituencies: The out and out racists, the Unions/Labor, the National Security concerned. That's why there are some SINCERE adherents HERE of strange bedfellows ending up with the same outlook as the MM. You may see the MM as insignificant in your area, just as how the KKK (decades ago) hightailed themselves AWAY from the border back to Georgia when they arrived to patrol the border, but tell it to TANCREDO and "Tex" SESENBRENNER and Jerome CORSI when they are yapping into national microphones, and millions of the closeted MM are nodding their heads and FUMING in their E-Z-loungers. As for "nothing" YOU "can do" about MM coming up with crazy solutions---uh, yes, you could exclude hysteria from the possible responses.

To 7, 9, 10: "Another topic/thread" -- Uh, no, my point was that whatever the theme of your o.p., it left everything open ended for whichever way the respondents wanted to take it. And, no, JUST bringing up the border is not an incitement IF the topic is defined and framed instead of including HYSTERIA as one possible response.

To 2: I mentioned SOME possible ways the U.S. mindset could help by changing itself (social services, rehab, etc.?).


& it's not clear whether you are there now or whether it's your (past?) hometown, but YOU are not being shot at on this side, as the article said. You now included that "the problem" on THIS side is drug consumption, as the article said.

"To 7, 9, 10: "Another topic/thread" -- Uh, no, my point was that whatever the theme of your o.p., it left everything open ended for whichever way the respondents wanted to take it. And, no, JUST bringing up the border is not an incitement IF the topic is defined and framed instead of including HYSTERIA as one possible response."


I don't think that posters have to "frame" events and define them so that readers can for the "proper" opinions about them. What's wrong with letting respondents take the discussion whichever way they please?

As for "hysteria", it seems to me this thread has incited a whole lot of disinterest if anything, which is kind of sad, but probably indicates that most people find this to be a sad turn of events, but one we can do little about.


It's my hometown and I live there, although I am out of town at the moment.

I'm not personally afraid that the violence is going to spill over into El Paso, but it could. I simply think it's odd that incidents overseas of less significance get media play and this is ignored.

I didn't include the drug reference in the article in what I pasted. But the fact is that a lot of the drugs going through Juarez do end up in the US. I wouldn't say that that is "the problem", but it is clearly a part of it.

And if you're going to basically accuse DUers who favor strong border policies of being "bedfellows" of the likes of Sensenbrenner and the KKK, I don't think we'll have much to talk about. There are a lot of valid, progressive reasons for wanting to curb illegal immigration, without demonizing the immigrants themselves. And I don't much care for your lumping 'labor' in with the racists and jingoes, either.

"As for "nothing" YOU "can do" about MM coming up with crazy solutions---uh, yes, you could exclude hysteria from the possible responses."

No, I can't do that because MM types don't post here to my knowledge and I have never seen any "hysteria" on this issue expressed here.

* No, nobody can make everybody frame topics or dictate "proper" opinions, but you can be aware of what the likely outcomes are according to how you present your topic. Zeus knows I'm ERRATIC in the quality of MY posting according to circumstances totally within my control!1

* My basic question has been: What do YOU want to result from YOUR quest for "media attention." There HAS been plenty of media attention over the past three years or so and some of the outcomes have not been pretty. On THIS topic, your o.p., there are about four outcomes: 1) Hysteria, like, "OMFG!1 There is a SHOOTING WAR GOING ON RIGHT NEAR MY HOME!1. 2) "Tsk, tsk, AIN'T-IT-AWFUL!1 (whereupon we all go back about our business.)" 3) "Here are the Liberal alternatives to deal with that: (List follows. I myself have listed some of them TWICE already.)" 4) Wingnuts go crazy. And the word is UNinterest, not DISinterest.

* You repeat (repetition is a bad sign) YOUR assumption about MOST people that apparently for you there is nothing much that can be done. Actually, there ARE, some of which I've listed TWICE, for starters. Others could add on to the list. If the masses are undergoing a raising of consciousness about global warming, then raising awareness on your topic could go to the top of the list.

* It's "odd that events overseas (are) of less significance"?!1 It's possible to hold multiple concerns without having to rank them, but most people here would think that the outrageous Iraq Attack calls for some high ranking.

* And the end of a discussion comes when you make false interpretations about my equalizing Union/Labor with KKK. That's what "strange bedfellows" means. I didn't say that our Union/Labor brotherhood are racists. I said "strange bedfellows." If YOU misunderstood, O.K. If you really believe it, then I resent it.

* You've never seen hysteria on this issue here? Like your topic, and the way you presented it, there are periodical hyterical threads about NAFTA, "illegals", the NAFTA Superhighway, Jerome CORSI's Canada-Mexico-U.S. treaty that will obliterate the U.S. and borders and will have Mexican truckers invading the U.S. and (I'll refrain from satirizing).


So, toodle-oo. Hope the parting will be friendly. I haven't attacked YOU, although your misreading of what I've said has raised some my milder strain of sarcasm.

I think that it's silly to refuse to discuss this problem because of the possible result of the discussion.

This is not some abstract left-versus-right discussion for some of us. This is all happening FIVE MILES from me.

What makes you ASSUME it's more abstract for me than it is for you?!1

There's video of that report at this link:

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/23/1053308.aspx

I can see Juarez from my backyard...

Coronado High class of 87. Working out of the country right now, though...

I miss El Paso. Especially the top-notch Mexican food and Charcoaler burgers.