Are 'Boomers' responsible for our current economic and ecological situation?

Are they to blame for buying into the "2 house; 3 car" "american dream" consumerist lifestyle? Are they to blame for the mutated cancer-capitalism that was ushered in post-Carter? Even those in poverty and unable to afford one house or one car still seemed to live in debt and beyond one's means. Is there anything that could have been done to stave off the excess?

I can see, linguistically, that this is at least as technically true as saying "Americans" are to blame for the Iraq war. I am less certain if any generation could have resisted the temptation of the industrial-consumer complex. As a matter ofd fact, I have seen very little to indicate the following generations are any less consumerist and short-sighted.

My answer is no. I believe that consumerism taps into very primal places and is, to a large extent, irresistible to anyone who is not constantly on guard against it.

Absolutely.

Sorry you don't understand history or life.

"Boomers" is a label for people born in a certain time frame, and means nothing more. Those who attempt to blame "generations" for anything are delusional and self justifying. In time, perhaps you will learn these lessons. It's just as silly to label as lazy and unmotivated Generation X or Generation Next, and equally idiotic.

At the same time, claiming that the generation of American who currently hold power are not, as a group, responsible for the effects of their net political decisions seems to me to be going too far in the other direction.

Saying "boomers are to blame" is unfair, as it implies that an individual boomer is responsible for the acts of everyone his or her approximate age. Saying "boomers are not to blame" is wrong, since many of the problems of this country are a direct result of the net political/cultural decisions and net lifestyle choices of the baby-boom generation.

It's like saying "Americans are to blame for the Iraq war." In a sense, yes, were it not for the support of the American populace the war could not have occurred. In a sense, no, not all are responsible and it is unfair to blame all for the actions of most.

... is that blame has a connotation of responsibility for doing wrong- but at the time the boomers were indulging, there was no reason to believe that there was any reason not to indulge.

It's only in hindsight that it occurs to us that it was even possible for the indulgences of the boomers to have so extensive a global impact. Global impact economically, ecologically, etc. was not something that had ever before been really considered a possibility, so the notion that the boomers should've seen it coming is ridiculous.

In as much as they don't fight corrective measures (green techs, etc.) I'd say that they have nothing to feel guilty about. Well, nothing to feel like they should beat themselves up too much about...

With the advent of the younger. post boomer generations.



:puke: :dunce: :sarcasm: :rofl: :patriot:

I too thought oh brother, that poster thinks that we boomers were the major consumers? Look at all these elementary school kids with the fancy ipods, phones, you name it. A car from the 'rents is a done deal at 16 as far as they are concerned. I recall having to work for mine.

I definitely do not see a return to simple pleasures by the succeeding generations to my own...

and that greed is good and raised them in an environment of largesse and unearned showering with material goods, and that life is just a great big party that the parents pay for, and that each generation should live higher on the hog than the previous generation, that is to blame.

They raised a generation of children with an entitlement and disposable-everything mentality.

Yeah, the Boomers were also the hippies and whatnot, but 99% of the hippies were hippies only while their parents were paying their way.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for posting your financial info below. Brag much...?

us Korea and Vietnam.

I'm a boomer and my parents grew are from the Great Depression/World War II era. I was taught to put money away every payday before spending it on anything else. I do hope you know that credit cards weren't commonly used until the late '70's.

Better find somebody else to blame.

and my husband 1941. We were taught to take care of a dollar also because our parents/grandparents were depression era people who learned to stretch all of their resources to the breaking point.

The older boomers generally had parents who were old enough to remember the Great Depression first hand as teenagers. We grew up with parents who were materialistic but incredibly thrifty. They communicated this thrift and a mistrust of institutions and debt to us.

The second cohort had parents who were too young to remember much of the Depression, who were materialistic but not terribly thrifty. This is the bunch that fell for the "two houses, three cars" American dream. Their children were suckers for credit cards that most of us old farts were leery of.

We older boomers saw our standard of living decline from what our parents had enjoyed, discovering that with depressed wages we needed two incomes to raise families. The second cohort took the two wage earners as a matter of course, but achieved a higher standard of living through debt.

Still, what has caused the American Consumer Nightmare to come to a crashing halt is the fact that wages have been depressed for so long and that debt has been substituted. The problem with that is there is always an end point at which no more debt can be serviced without cutting into subsistence spending and that's when discretionary spending simply stops.

We're at that end point now. People simply can't afford to take on another dime of debt and are fixing old things, making do, doing without, and only spending on what they absolutely have to in order to keep functioning.

Blaming any generation for the actions of government combined with business in destroying unions and depressing wages is untrue and unfair.

Remember, that process really started with Reagan, and he was no boomer.

Few noticed the difference. Americans just drank the sand.

of the mid to late 70s, but likely would have caught up without the war on the middle class being waged by Reagan and other conservatives.

We're in the middle of a job and wage crisis, not a generational one.

Thank you. I posted this OP based on a thrumming i hear underneath the discourse here. I know we cannot blame a generation, but I was curious to see the conversation about it. I hope I carefully phrased my op well enough to generate thoughtful discussion.

My mother was of the generation that when she cracked open an egg, she would scrape out the inside of the shell with her finger to get every last bit. I was given a small allowance, but anything I wanted, including clothes, I had to pay for myself. Thrift was taught to me at an early age, and I've never had more than one credit card.

and I had a credit card for only about 3 years, got rid of it when they started to charge junk fees on top of that 18 3/4%.

I've always been allergic to debt. If I couldn't afford it, I figured I didn't need it that much.

Of course, my more profligate acquaintances who are now panicking also have lovely memories of European trips and new cars every 3 years while I don't, but at least I can still sleep at night and they can't.

I am from the first cohort of Boomers with parents who came of age in the Depression.

I differ from my parents in education and disillusionment in government as of the Vietnam age group, a 16 year fed career, and education and experience to call myself an economist.

I have zero debt and zero government assistance but my well-being has declined once I disconnected from the corporate world and aged; almost entirely because of capricious government actions at the macroeconomic level.

whatever they want whenever they want it aren't off the hook. They hardly smell like roses either. Its more complicated I am sure than just putting if off on one group of people. its a mindset that existed forever in this country. Consider the boom-bust cycle of the last 200 years. Consider the roaring twenties, the gilded age. Don't blame a generation, blame a mindset.

:thumbsdown:

figures ...

Your choice. Only quit badgering me, Trajan. You're probably too smart to act like such an ass.

Credit Cards ARE a recent development, and the poster to whom you are responding is telling the truth ...

I am NOT badgering you ... just calling bullshit ... again ....

"Credit Cards ARE a recent development, and the poster to whom you are responding is telling the truth ..."

You seem to miss that I was asking the poster who said:

"Wish some of you had an inkling as to what the hell you're talking aout"

this question:

"Where are they getting that load of bullshit?"

As you say "the poster to whom you are responding is telling the truth ..."

So will you please, do me the great honor of reading with fresh eyes and open mind and not a nasty attitude of "just calling bullshit ... again ...."

I don't assume that you -- or anyone else with your attitude -- are always gonna act perpetually pissed off.

Thank you.




Rabrrrrrr
2. It was the pre-Boomer generation that taught the Boomers to be mindless consumers

and that greed is good and raised them in an environment of largesse and unearned showering with material goods, and that life is just a great big party that the parents pay for, and that each generation should live higher on the hog than the previous generation, that is to blame.

They raised a generation of children with an entitlement and disposable-everything mentality.

Yeah, the Boomers were also the hippies and whatnot, but 99% of the hippies were hippies only while their parents were paying their way.


sinkingfeeling
26. Wish some of you had an inkling as to what the hell you're talking aout.

before spending it on anything else. I do hope you know that credit cards weren't commonly used until the late '70's.

Better find somebody else to blame.

Marketing techniques that were developed as demographers looked at the sheer numbers of people born in the boom and made plans for life-long economic gains by following this group.

I wish there were 1 million-8 billion more like you.

Everything has become a product, even war. The public relations industry, with help from the MSM, has sold many people the perception that they can have it all. When I was in college--there were tables set up for VISA and MC--so you can start in debt young. Remember that show, "Lifestyles for the Rich and Famous?" It was back in the eighties. And I'll never forget * telling the public to go SHOP after 9/11. See, that's how we're supposed to help our country, SHOP!!!!

When I was in college I started out in marketing - very early 80s.

The main tenets, as we were taught: find a need and fill it. If the need does not exist, create the need.

i say the depression generation was, cause they created the 'greatest generation'. then it all got fucked up. sigh. but now we go back to go and it starts all over.

...pay attention to what i say... (as the song goes).

i've worked for everything i ever got from the age of fourteen. i have not been a mindless consumer. don't know how many are out there like me, but when you talk about boomers like that, you're not talking about me. please be careful, one might think you don't know shit about it.

obviously, outliers are everywhere.

One can talk about trends, averages, and movements, even though specific members within that group do not adhere to the overall trending.

Sheesh. People take things so personally.

...you're "talkin' 'bout my g-g-generation."

Mostly it was one house, one car, husband works, wife stays home and raises the kids. Most lived within their means. Which worked out fine because it was easy to live on one person's salary and have money left over. Teenagers were not bombarded with credit card offers and most didn't even have one. Most people didn't live in debt, either. As far as the environment goes, people way back then were never told there was a problem. No one knew. Nothing was in the media about it. When Rachel Carson's book The Silent Spring was first publishsed in 1962, it astonished people, created controversy, and that marked the beginning of concern for the environment.

Hippies? Many of them were rejected by their parents and thrown out of the house, or else they became runaways. Many were from homes that you'd consider wealthy, and they lived in the streets, in crash pads, or banded together and lived in communes. Eventually most reentered the system; others never did.

And let me say that this discrimination against Boomers is nuts and is based on complete fabrications. But I doubt that you'd believe me.

and "fuck altruism; I'm putting me first."

and that's what I'm giving here.

Did you have a "Baby on Board" sign over your infant seat?

More importantly - do you still have said sign hanging from your rear view mirror?

The Yuppies movement (back to the cities and working in big business) started in the 80's. The Yuppies were boomers - later boomers, but boomers nonetheless.

You and me. Though I was never a yuppie, of course. lol

So people in their 20s and 30s in the 1980s = boomers.

Edited to spell correctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-World_War_II_baby_boom#In_the_United_States

The word yuppie started appearing around '82 and probably peaked around '85. By 1985, the oldest boomer was 39 and the youngest was 21 or 22, so all boomers were essentially in their '20s and '30s, meaning that all yuppies were by definition boomers.

Some people have actually tried to blame us for Ronald Reagan! Which is kinda hard to do since the majority of us couldn't vote in 1980 or 1984.

hmmm . . .

The media and powers who control our language define what this 'better life' is in a context that enriches them. They certainly did not sell us fresh air and free time, that's for goddamned sure!

(makes just as much sense)

but there's never a dearth of posters who jump at the chance to blame either group for any ill affecting the world.

The responsibility lies with the rich fucks who would pimp their grandmother for an extra five bucks.

but they were the first generation that should have known better.

and perfectly true.

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Seems you Gen-Xers are a bit upset that you don't get to inherit the perfect world you feel is owed you.

I consider things like clean water, stable icecaps, species not going extinct, and fertile soil for food production essential to life. I DO think those basic things are owed to us, don't you?

see which one fills up first."

No it is not to much to hope for but you might do well to consider what things might look like had the generation you are expecting so much from not built the environmental movement.

In the mid seventies when most of the country believed that reducing automotive emissions was a communist/liberal plot to destroy the US auto industry (I was working on developing smog-testing methods at the time) you literally could not go outside in LA on some days. These days, the air in LA and many other cities is pristine compared to what it was before the Boomers came along and cleaned it up.

Wages have steadily declined for 30 years. Men in their 30s make less than their fathers did. Gen Xers have run into the "grey ceiling*" at work. But what's there to complain about? Suck it up! Be grateful that your parents brought a bunch of groovy music into the world man! They saved the planet by creating the whole earth catalog!

The shitty world we inherited is clearly our fault what with all of the slacking and the whining.

*http://www.businessweek.com/business_at_work/generation_gap/archives/2008/07/the_grey_ceilin.html

The tend to reproduce to fill up their space until something happens to interrupt the cycle.

So it is with human organisms.

'irresistible-ness' of consumerism. Very visual.

I see most of those in deep financial trouble to be in their 30-40's. They're the ones who went ga-ga over every new technical gizmo and had to have them. I will be signing up for my Social Security in 18 months. I already have a old-style pension coming in and a fairly healthy 403K. My $650K historic home will be paid off in 3 years, although I will still owe on the second house I bought for my 38 yr-old son. Don't have any car payments and haven't any plans on trading in either my 18 yr.-old Subaru or my 10 yr.-old Saturn unless I can get an impressive tax credit. Not much in any other debts. Thank you for trying to create a generational war here. You're the second today.

and a bunch of other shit that was either Boomer supported or Boomer led.

The backlash against civil rights (based on an older generation raised in segregation) was the basis for Reagan and the modern conservative movement.

The boomers were the ones getting tear-gassed by cops in the late 1960's.

Hm?

Most whites didn't buy into the civil rights movement, but the ones who mattered did.

Won't don't you wait until 66 so you can leave more funds with the public treasury.

have said that one should take their SS as early as possible. i plan to do that as well.

How many billions has been looted by previous Administration from SS? Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II all had their greedy paws in the cookie jar. Rat Bastards!

ecological awareness, questioned authority and eschewed the "obey-consume-die" lifestyle, but some twit wants to broad-brush an entire generation.

These whiny Xers (which they do quite well) should be on their hands and knees giving thanks. They weren't being drafted into an unjust war. Because of the efforts of the Boomers, young people got a voice, and the military draft was ended. Most of the 58,000 names on the Vietnam Memorial are the names of Boomers.

Oh, and thanks for the great music as well.

So no, you didn't save Xer from serving in Vietnam by protesting the War in the '70s.

or Chimpy's war. Imagine a draft taking place the last couple of years.

(Gulf I excluded.)

to fight tooth and nail against a war when you're 18, there's a draft and it's your ass on the line. And then later turn around and happily send* overwhelmingly poor and minority volunteers off to war, but hey, at least there's no draft for rich white college boys!

* I'm obviously not talking about any DUers as we're mostly all anti-war here but you can't ignore the millions of boomers who voted for the two Bushes or congressional boomers who voted for war.

Again, go to the Vietnam Memorial. And remember Kent State. The Boomers (which I am not a part of that crowd, by the way. I'm a very late Boomer) sacrificed a great deal more than my group or your generation ever did. And to proclaim them as selfish after what they had to go through is just ignoring the overall history of that generation.

Maybe then we wouldn't be so cavalier about sending kids off to war.

So because of the injustice of the Vietnam war we can't mention anything the Boomers have done since then?

I know that argument has been around quite a bit here at DU. Do you have children, ContinentalOp? If you have a boy (as I do), then you may think differently about this.

Bush the Younger was unelected. And Congressional "boomers" didn't vote for war because they were boomers, they voted for it because they are craven American politicians. Nancy Pelosi isn't a boomer either, and neither is Dennis Hastert.

:shrug: They're always complaining that young people are so politically apathetic, so I'm sure hoping that boomers were out there voting in full force when they were younger.

But, was the voting pool even mostly boomers then? I'm not good enough at math to figure it out. lol

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I was like you. I had to sign up for selective service, even though there was no draft. You and I didn't have to worry about our number and being called up like the Boomers did. We never had that stress.

it's rather unbecoming

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Seems like people want to construct lots of neat little boxes here, but the draft is a MAJOR difference between everybody up through boomers, and everybody post-boomers.

Vietnam, now called a "boring" topic people are "tired of" (yawn!) was a major turning point, and I don't think post-boomers quite get how many revolutions went on all at the same time...

Growing up with a draft (and raised by parents who lived through one), sensing it always was and always would be that way, vs. growing up without a draft -- I think that's one really major difference between boomers and subsequent generations.

Not a boomer. Just because we lost 58,000 of us in 'Nam does mean our gen started it.

would be Chimpy's. Right? Chimpy is an aberration of our generation and the inclination to blame a generation, for the woes at hand is ridiculous given the decades it's taken to get this f*cked up. It started with Reagan and it is a class war.

mercifully short. Obama has inherited two wars and although I don't agree with every action being taken, he sure the hell didn't start those two. My point is blaming baby boomers for all our woes is utter bullshit. Buck up. No generation is perfect. That would include your's.

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Yeah, a lot of people died in Vietnam. They weren't fighting for the rights of Americans, they were fighting for the whims of the government.

Vietnam didn't put an end to military drafts. It just made them unpopular.

For that, you get a cookie. Now explain to me how that gives the Boomers a pass for all the heinous bullshit you've put this country through since then.

Dubya? Boomer.

Clinton? Boomer.

Condi? Boomer.

How many people have died directly from the "efforts" of Boomers?

I bet most of them don't have a memorial anywhere.

In 1966, what you described was considered a fringe movement

Early environmentalists were met with an "OMG! You are trying to take my washing machine away" attitude.

Boomer environmentalists were behind the major environmental legislation on the 60's and 70s'

They began the movement towards a simpler, more ecologically sane lifestyle.

Who do you think drove major Federal and State environmental legislation?

Who do you think pioneered the use of gas-frugal compact cars (then the VW Beetle) when the rest of America was proud of their gas-hogs?

Do you remember what it was like to try to organize a recycling program in the early 1970's? They are now a feature of every major municipal waste disposal program.

Good God.

The leaders of these movements were not Boomers, but members of the older generation. So, using your broadbrush, the Boomers created the Reagan Revolution. I guess everything didn't start until 1980.

So they must bear some responsibility for the leaders we've had since they've been voting. Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush. Not exactly a great track record is it?

Boomers were in their mid '30s by the time of the "Reagan revolution" so certainly the movement wasn't just driven by their parents. It's also interesting that Clinton was elected just as Generation X was coming of age, and Obama was elected just as Gen Y joins us at the polls.

And trust me, they had some numbers, but they didn't have the power. The media and the political machines were still dominated by old white males who didn't mind telling you to get a haircut. I would say if Boomers had any impact, it wasn't until the late 80's, early 90', on the political scale. The first Boomer elected president was a Democrat, even though many here don't consider Clinton a Democrat at all.

By 1980 almost all of the 70 million boomers were of voting age, and the oldest were in their mid 30s. Boomers voted for Reagan and Carter in equal numbers in the 1980 election. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_coalition

If so, McGovern would have won. And the folks leading the Moral Majority of the late 70's, early 80's, were not Boomers. The "Establishment" was still in control.

And your bashing of Boomers was particularly insulting on the day that 4 young "Boomers" gave their lives to end an unjust war 39 years ago. Again, what did your generation do, as well as mine? Not a damn thing. 58,000 names on a wall in Washington should show the supreme sacrifice that Boomers gave to us, fighting in and also against an unjust war.

That means that the boomers began voting in the mid 1960s. :hi:

By the '72 election, the 26th amendment was passed so anyone born before '54 could vote.

The Establishment was still in power. You saw what happened to the protesters in Chicago. The young people against the war didn't have a chance at the time.

I was one.

so the first year any boomers (at age 21) could vote = 1967.

As explained in the second short paragraph of my 2 short paragraph post, my answer is 'no'.

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They're still mad at mommy and daddy for ordering them out of the house at age 27.

Not much of a change, IMO.

trampled and tapped down. Some of us had the resilience to stick to our ideals, remembering how hard it was for our parents.

The ones who didn't, thought we were too weird and bought the idea of "he who dies with the most toys wins". Remember that bumper sticker?

This theory is less about when you entered the world as it is where you came from. Those who truly remember their parents as "the greatest generation" are probably the boomers who never forgot what the 60's were truly about.

...50's and have no credit card debt, and no car payments (haven't bought a new car since 1991). I have no problem with procuring the latest tech gizmo (I'm in the tech field), but we didn't go into debt to feed the need. The idea of going into debt for anything other than a mortgage makes me feed a little ill. My parents and my husband's parents were teenagers during the Depression, and their experiences in the 1930's colored how we were raised 20 years later. We didn't waste ANYTHING. My Mom even wrapped Christmas presents (for us kids) in the Sunday comics instead of buying wrapping paper (she was green before it was cool...).

They tend to think debt is a good thing, instead of seeing it as an excuse to buy things one cannot yet afford. Want a big screen TV? Buy it on credit. Want a car that is nicer than you can afford? Buy it on credit. Clothes? Credit.

There's a reason the US consumers have personal debt off the chart, and it ain't Boomers who have gotten debt they cannot afford. It's the next two generations and their slavish devotion to buying consumer goods they can't afford on the meager incomes they actually earn.

Sure blame X & Yers who are already facing crushing debt when they graduate from college. What do you care? You only paid $5 a semester. And who do you think pushed credit cards on these young people and gave them economic advice? Their peers?

But many here will disagree with you, because they are perfect.

I just don't know where to go with it and smell the futility.

Who are all those upwardly mobile folk with designer water, running shoes, pickled parquet floors and $450,000 condos in semislum buildings? Yuppies, of course, for Young Urban Professionals, and the one true guide to their carefully hectic life-style is The Yuppie Handbook (Long Shadow Books; $4.95). Tongue firmly in chic, Authors Marissa Piesman and Marilee Hartley tirelessly chronicle the ways of the Yuppie, along with its lesser-known subspecies the Guppie (Gay Urban Professional) and Puppie (Pregnant Urban Professional). Both writers are accredited Yups: Piesman, 32, is a lawyer, and Hartley, 38, is an editor.

The slim volume is yet another clone of a reigning champion in the impulse book market, The Official Preppy Handbook, which appeared three years ago and has more than 1.3 million copies in print. The new manual is aimed at an affluent, surefire market: the upscale young singles and dual-career couples gathered in or near big cities. Long the darlings of the advertising world and the media, these fast-trackers are now united under a sassy name and invited to smile along at their own trendiness.

Yuppies are dedicated to the twin goals of making piles of money and achieving perfection through physical fitness and therapy. The Yuppie wakes to a digital alarm, sets down the dog food for the akita and jogs for the beta-endorphins before putting in a typically grueling day at the office, followed by an hour of therapy and meeting of the condo board. There is no time for sex, so for many Yuppies celibacy is a way of life. Yuppies eat tortellini, tuna sashimi and chefs salad, and favor restaurants with ceiling fans and dark green walls. No instant food ever passes Yuppie lips. The kitchen features scores of exotic appliances that cannot be washed in the dishwasher, window herb gardens and a double sink for draining pasta.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952325,00.html

I actually was looking for an image of the Time Magazine cover, and didn't find it - but I did find the accompanying article above.

"I believe that consumerism taps into very primal places and is, to a large extent, irresistible to anyone who is not constantly on guard against it."

What is "consistently on guard"? A Herculean effort beyond most people with brains and will?

and see how they are conserving their resources instead of selling out for wealth and a more secure, comfortable, and predictable life. Go anywhere where the decision to conserve in exchange for wealth can still be made and see what choices they are acting on.

I am asserting that I do not think anyone could have resisted the sale of consumerism without a great effort. I further assert that what consumerism appeals to is so primal an aspect of humanity, that one can look at third world developing nations and see similar choices being made (similar to the adult american population from the 70's onwards).

The op is about the idea that boomers are to blame vs the idea that they were just there and as susceptible as any other group of humans would have been.

"They" is a real stereotyping keyword. Then come the generalizations. When applied to groups like nationalities, races or genders, it's usually considered bigotry. A generation is just another group.

For every "Boomer" that fits the stereotype (or "X-er" or "Greatest"), you'll find another who doesn't.

Glad that your answer is "no," but the premise needed visiting. Keep it real...

Even to the extend there are patterns with Gen-X, we're either forgotten, confused with the millenials/Gen-Y, or mischaracterized.

One can only attribute human feeling, emotions and motives to people. When there is a large group it ceases to be "human" and is turned into a thing. One then must look at the thing and decide whether it is a good thing, a bad thing or have good and bad attributes.

Just like one cannot be upset at a plague one cannot be upset with the Baby Boomers. They destroy but do not understand that their greed (collectively) has caused more destruction than anything else in human history.

It is the job of responsible people to manage this thing - this Boomer generation - so we contain and remediate their damage.

You can't be serious! Where to even start with this lulu!?

:rofl:

Not sure whether to :rofl: or :cry: at that one.

Militant environmentalism is one of the legacies of the Boomer generation

To the generation raised in the depression, smokestacks were a sign of prosperity

To the boomers raised in the 1950's they were a sign of environmental destruction

Who do you think started the push towards organic agriculture?

What generation do you think created the Whole Earth Catalog, and the notion of living an earth-friendly way?

When did our major environmental legislation get enacted? In the 1960s and 1970s. Which group do you think was pushing this, making it into a mass movement that even Richard Nixon could not ignore?

It was those damn hippies and their younger siblings!

How about pervasive consumerism, on the other hand? :)

I can name the California Coastal Act, passed by voters in the mid-1970's as one example. Mandated automobile emission controls were another.

I remember what it was like to try to set up recycling programs in the early 1970's. It was a "fringe hippy" thing. "Solid citizens" (largely older folks) were proud to have "no deposit no return" - recycling was something that recalled the poverty of the depression.

Santa Monica's city recycling program in the early 1980's was strongly opposed by conservative elements in the city. It was tagged another sinister element of the "people's republic of Santa Monica"

That municipal recycling programs are an established fact is a testament to the strength of the environmental movement born in the 1960s and 1970s. Reduction in landfill mass is a measurable result we can thank boomer activists for

This is just one example. There has been a major cultural shift in this country due almost entirely to efforts of boomer generation activists.

You measure progress not by counting numbers, but by looking at the change that activists have been able to accomplish.

it's no longer "militant".

And this "pervasive consumerism" probably is not as widespread among Boomers as your broad brush might paint.

Its all about conservation and healthy living (for environmental and human health). And, unfortunately, its also susceptible to consumerism, if not spawned from it. Much of the organic startups have been bought out by large businesses, who profit by promoting the lifestyle. You must wonder, if this lifestyle (in its current form) comes are all from the original movement, or rather a profit incentive. The more mini, lite-environmentalists you create, the more Kellogg can sell organic cereals for 2 bucks more a box.

Consumerism is widespread amongst the entire population. But it was only the boomers that had home-equity to cash in on and good credit ratings that helped them ride the wave (thereby shaping it somewhat). No one else had the same roots to tap in the last 10 years, though they probably would have. Those who tried to keep up with the Jones, who were a bit younger, are feeling nothing but pain now.

It was an all-around clusterfuck. Im not sure if the boomers were the originators of the current mess, but they participated in it (because they could). But the reality is, it was probably the same ol' bastards calling the shots in our bipolar economy. This was a time for a high, and thereafter, for collecting on profits.

supports most of the environmental groups in this country? Boomers, like Robert Redford. Who founded Earth Day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaylord_Nelson

I looked it up because I was actually going to try using Earth Day against the boomers earlier! But hey, if you want to take credit for it :P

Guess who made up the 20 million that participated?

http://earthday.envirolink.org/history.html
"I was satisfied that if we could tap into the environmental concerns of the general public and infuse the student anti-war energy into the environmental cause, we could generate a demonstration that would force this issue onto the political agenda. It was a big gamble, but worth a try."

NYT: "Rising concern about the environmental crisis is sweeping the nation's campuses with an intensity that may be on its way to eclipsing student discontent over the war in Vietnam...a national day of observance of environmental problems...is being planned for next spring...when a nationwide environmental 'teach-in'...coordinated from the office of Senator Gaylord Nelson is planned...."

"My answer is no. I believe that consumerism taps into very primal places and is, to a large extent, irresistible to anyone who is not constantly on guard against it."

I'd pretty much agree with that though. The economy is based on consumption. If more people don't consume more, we end up with 2008/2009. What is our solution to the problem? More of everything, except not spending.

All of our institutions would cease to function the way we want them to if more people don't consume more. Like you said; how exactly do you resist that? You're almost compelled to spend and consume.

Now I've done my part in helping to cause the economy to collapse by never buying a car in my entire adult life, nor will I, especially a "green" car. That's fine, as long as more people don't do it. As soon as more people stop buying cars, then a giant problem begins.

So we all have a part to play. Again, just by the fact that there are physically more people in the boomer category in a nation like America means they will have a greater responsibility for the things that happen. However, they were also born into a system that they had no say in shaping, as that system has been increasing in scale for thousands of years, and there are billions more people out on the planet who aren't hooked into it yet, so it still has more room to grow. Which isn't surprising that it would begin to happen now(now being the time after the fall of the communist system, which allowed for the real globalizing of the capitalist system), as the boomers in America get closer to retirement age.

Many, and more than like most, were Boomers. Many of those probably didn't want to be there, and were drafted into fighting an unjust war. Boomers at home fought against the war, and because of their efforts, late Boomers like me and the whiny Xers and others on this board could have been subjugated to a draft to fight Chimpy's wars.

You complainers can whine all you want, but overall the Boomers provided a wonderful service for young people. They helped give young people a voice, and were highly responsible for ending the war and ending the draft. They fought and died in the jungles, and they died on college campuses like Kent State.

When Xer's or other younger folks can show me this kind of sacrifice, then let me know. I thank God for the Boomers and for the impact they had on our culture.

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dying in Vietnam, dying at Kent State, and getting 18 year olds the right to vote?

What does this have to do with the economy and the environment?

It has gone to blaming everything on the Boomers. May 4 (when these posts came up) 1970 - get some perspective on this. You definitely have it in for Boomers, and I'm sure you blame everything on them. Again, look at the big picture, and see how it would have been if the Boomers hadn't done anything but sit on their hands. We probably would have had even more wars and more 18 year old as cannon fodder. It's remarkable how some in the younger generations seem to gloss over these important events and instead whine about how Boomers are taking everything and destroying everything in their paths.

Just curious.

the ideas of their Boomer parents :-).

They were the ones (with a little help from Carter) who started this "free trade" crap, started to take away all the regulations that kept Wall Street and bankers in check, and relentlessly attacked Unions.

Milton Friedman and Greenspan were also NOT baby boomers. They were the ones who pushed the deregulation and justified greed gone wild.

If you want to blame a large group of people, better to blame ALL AMERICANS.

Seems all they know is to blame Boomers for everything.

I also wonder, do you consider discussion of the crisis we exist in economically and ecologically 'whiny'?

There are a lot of kinds of 'whiny' as far as I can see.

You asked a question, and the whining about the Boomers being the problem with all our ills starting coming out. And those whining are the ones who consistently bash Boomers. I'm sorry that I addressed it that way, and I did not intend to say that to you. Again, my apologies.

I mention elsewhere that these notions exist and I think they ought to be talked about. There is a lot of pent up tension these days.

The boomers parents all lived thru the depression. They are not as debt phobic as their parents, but neither are they inclined to extremes of leverage. Most of the rampant unsecured debt I think you will find is with the children of the boomers. They were never taught the lessons their Grandparents learned surviving the depression and their parents learned by the lifestyle and spending choices they saw their parents (the kids grandparents) grow up with. Finally it is tempting to blame the grandkids of the boomers who probably have little to no concept of what the great depression was and what/how their ancestors survived and the lessons learned. But they have relatively little economic power to rack up the kinds of debt that caused this mess.

Every generation will blame the one preceding it whilst maintaining its own moral superiority. And every generation will grouse about the one proceeding it whilst maintaining its own moral superiority.

I imagine this has been happening since the dawn of man. And we none of us seem to be immune to the foibles of history...as this thread quite aptly illustrates. :P

Because the Boomers are almost twice the size of Gen X we are always going to live in their shadow. They never stop telling us how they gave the world such wonderful music, what great sex they had, how they changed the world, how they ended the war, etc.

The entire global corporate marketing machine is geared toward selling stuff to the boomers. We have to hear about how groovy their retirement is going to be, how they're going to keep having amazing senior citizen sex thanks to Viagra and on and on.

Meanwhile Gen X has half of the political power (1/2 the size) we make less money than our parents did at the same age and yet we still have to listen to what a bunch of "whiny, entitled slackers" we are. Never mind the fact that our dot coms provided the only significant economic boom in recent decades. That was just a silly flash in the pan huh?

"That was just a silly flash in the pan huh?"

I dunno-- sounds simply like history repeating itself.

Blame is always on them. Credit is always on us. Turn the page. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

ContinentalOp, do you have a naggy older sister or brother? :)

:P

:hi:

I never even owned a car, never mind a big house. I learned not to be a consumerist as a Boomer, to value the earth, help others, and oppose war and injustice. Thank you to my generation from me, because nobody else will.

We lost our way. Badly. Not all of us. Dirty fucking hippies had most everything right, and some of us kept the faith. But most of my generation is a shameful carbon emitting waste of bandwidth.

I, again, see that from every generation. Friends from my college days in the early 80's changed so much. It's as if we don't see eye-to-eye anymore. Wouldn't you think that happens within every generation?

and a wonderful will to express our madness, to make our dreams real. We thought we could change the world, and we acted as a generation, for just a few brief years, to make that dream reality, and then when it got difficult we let it all slide away.

Bunch of fucking cowards we were.

I actually feel sorry for the Boomers in a sense. I think the narcissistic "me generation" label is apt to a certain degree because boomers were always told they were special and exceptional and they really believed they were going to change the world. Then there was a big comedown from that high. It's not the Boomer's fault that they are the most aggressively marketed-to generation in world history. That's a lot of weird pressure that skews your view of how to live.

How do you react to a world that tells you you made the best music in the history of the universe, you lived in the most exciting turbulent times, you were the most dynamic, visionary active bunch of special people ever put on the earth. I think the myths of the boomers and the '60s created a really unhealthy self-image among a lot of people.

of that moment in time. The Great Crack Up from around '67 to around '72-'74 was not planned and was not marketed, at least not until they had figured out how to put a lid on it and then market it, which they did starting from around '72, completing the job in the early 80's.

Does it not? If you weren't "there" you couldn't possibly "get it." If you weren't there you can't possibly be one of the special people who helped save the world.

Anyway, I agree with you. I wasn't saying that '67-'72 was planned and market driven, just that the whole marketing world since then has been focused on selling to the boomers and trying to tap into and exploit that spirit, by appealing to nostalgia and stoking on this feeling of exceptionalism. It must be weird. I think Gen Xers are somewhat screwed up psychologically by living in the shadow of this phenomenon but it must be even more screwed up to be a part of it.

I think you nailed the true divisiveness of Boomers and Xers. Being a tweener like Obama (he's a month older than I am), it has been interesting seeing this tug of war between these two groups.

We fucked up. I'm a tail end boomer, but I see where W Bush and some of the pre-boomers totally fucked things up. I do not care for the boomers, except for maybe those who were a part of the counterculture in the '60's and never sold out. We have quite a few of these fine folks here on DU, and I deeply respect them, because they've gone through a lot of shit with their eyes wide open. I don't think I could do it for as long as they have--you know, watch and fight against the utter bullshit and corruption we've had from Nixon on without wanting to throw in the towel. That asshole Bush was a boomer. And a lot of the crazy fundies and assholes who vote Republican are boomers. There are times I hate my generation, but then I see there are a lot of awesome boomers still around. Just not nearly enough to offset the assholes in our generation.

:applause:

Not the same as the Boomers who are ex-hippies and now Progressive Democrats.

My parents are lifelong Democrats, they have solar panels on their roof, etc. But they also drive an SUV, have a house that is arguably too large for their needs, have always gone into debt to live beyond their means and buy expensive useless crap. It's not totally black and white and I think there is some sort of essential paradox at the heart of the boomer experience.

We, the Boomers have much we're accountable for. I am glad we're finally getting the bill because most of us are young enough to help change the things we created.

Like any animal, we respond to our environment and our environment is this capitalists economy. The education system, our government and needless to say the capitalists with their incredible employment of PR and advertising(psy-ops) have worked hammer and tongs to bring us to this sorry state of affairs.

We have no choice but to change our economic model away from the current one which of necessity screams, "More, more, more!"

My answer is no. I believe that murder taps into very primal places and is, to a large extent, irresistible to anyone who is not constantly on guard against it.

the behaviors that ensue are not ranked high enough on our moral value system to be taken seriously. I understand the 'waffle-ish-ness' of my op now.

A dumb question usually asked by someone who is still not self sufficient. Hopefully, that doesn't include you.

As is giving my credentials anonymously to another anonymous person.

Suffice to say I have been supporting myself for 17 years; I am 34.

Calling something 'dumb' without elaboration is the definition of ironic.

And NO, Miss Morrisette, labeling it a dumb question is not the definition of "ironic."

Calling something 'dumb' without explaining why is, in itself, dumb - hence, irony!

Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

As I explained to you earlier in this thread, it's a dumb question because it supposes that these mythical generations that some label with such names as "boomers," or "generation x," or "generation next" are effective measures of society.

Should I conclude that you lack the ability to write in complete sentences or form cogent thoughts simply because you are 34, and therefore belong to a generation not nearly as well educated as your parents' generation? While it's certainly true that your generation lacks good writing skills, it would be a mistake to try to blame your generation for it. You are not responsible for the generation in which you fit, nor is anyone else.

You are only responsible for yourself, and so are those who were born before you and after you.

'You are only responsible for yourself...' - oh, wait, that DOES explain some things.

Edify also means to reinforce.

I suppose that is the fault of Boomers, too. We allowed your generation to graduate without requiring you to learn how to read and write properly.

You have contributed very little to this thread besides your own hurt feelings. I am unsure if you read the op in its entirety.

I blame Disco.

Regardless of the generation, this is a world wide problem and should not be limited to one generation of people.

and the responses in this thread further illustrate the point. Apparently, the majority of people here would prefer to blame one another than blame the Titans of industry who actually caused the problems, or wake up and realize that the Ayn Rand-style capitalist greed model we've been using was broken from the beginning. How many actually chose to pollute air and waterways, or pay CEOs 300+ times the average worker's wage? How many "Boomers" are filthy rich with more money than several generations of jet setters could hope to spend? The answer should be "Mu" - un-ask the question, it is based on a false premise or false choice.

The economic collapse didn't happen because average people had or took too much, it happened because they were given far too little. Now they're encouraging you to blame each other with little sound bites on the TV, and of course you're buying it like it's your own idea.

When they traded you credit for income you should have gotten the pitchforks, but you almost didn't notice, because they're very clever. If people hadn't used that credit to buy stuff the fall would have just come sooner, and you would have had to suffer with a depression/economic reset 25+ years ago. The system is/was unsustainable, it depends on consumption being larger than the wages paid out. Slavery is the only logical end to it.

The sheer blindness exhibited by the posters here is downright shocking. Excuse me while I retrieve my jaw from my chest. Holy smoke.

Way to think in a third dimension. I will admit to posting the op based on comments I see around here on occassion; I hopefully communicated well enough that I do not blame an entire generation. The points you make are the most important ones, I think, when it comes to true healing of our society and I thank you for contributing them.

generation X and generation Jones: Yes, boomers have come of age. Many are parents and some even grandparents. We were the driving force of the sixties and seventies revolution that questioned and challenged the establishment in education, race, gender and foreign policy. We believed in creativity, artistic and cultural expression.

Comparatively, your generation is more global, more technological, idealistic, more focused on climate change and immigration as it relates to cultural identity. President Obama's platform has been one of change and transformation from the old politics. I am hopeful that these campaign promises come to fruition sooner rather than later. In the interim, they will undergo modification, innovation and compromise. In so doing, he will solicit the assistance from the boomers in his cabinet. Robert Gates (defense), Summers ( National Economic Council) and Clinton ( State). Other boomers in key leadership positions around the world include Sarkozy of France and German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

President Obama will succeed but he cannot do it alone. Post boomers are arriving but boomers are still a force to be heard.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

and once they've all retired, they'll turn their generational destructo-ray at social security.

:rofl:

When the reality of the matter is that people of all ages and stages in life, from the old to the young, got involved in this mindless credit card madness.

Sorry, but I saw youngsters, barely out of college, leveraging themselves into houses much too expensive for them. I saw these same people buying all the toys and putting them on credit.

I saw folks in their seventies, retired but wanting to have fun, maxxing out their credit cards in order to take trips, buy the latest toys, etc.

I've seen boomers, second wave boomers, Gen Xer's Gen Yer's hell even goddamn teenagers with their own credit cards living way beyond their means, putting everything on credit.

It's not a group of people, it's all of us, across the board. The only ones who aren't to blame are those who don't have a credit card.

So stop trying to play this divisive bullshit game. It isn't productive and all it does is set one group against another. Haven't we had enough of that sort of shit anyway?

receiving 'unsolicited' credit cards when he was barely out of high school.

I find this conversation to be productive. I find that there is a lot of inter-generational tension and blame; this is like therapy.

That's just one piece of the disaster. There were also massive political movements like the Moral Majority and the Contract On With America, that ushered in GOP majorities who deregulated the shit out of financial industries and let millions of U.S. manufacturing jobs go overseas, to be replaced by this bullshit "service economy" paper pushing facade. All that credit card spending you bemoan is what has been keeping our precarious economy afloat for nearly twenty years! Because it sure a shit hasn't been rising wages. BTW, this crap about people without credit cards being blameless is just as divisive as blaming everything on a certain generation. Just sayin'.

How much did the boomers pay for college anyway? I think UC tuition was a couple hundred dollars a year in the '60s.

the GSL AND NO INTEREST!!!! How do you like them apples?? HA!!

They borrowed money for school expenses, not to pay rent, buy I phones, and order take out food.

Now, getting a student loan is getting money for all sorts of needs, most of which used to be covered by a student working at a job.

since then.

This has been a process. In the beginning, the students loans were considered supplemental, and not intended to support the student. THAT is the reason the loans were small.

As for repayment of loans, I'm sure some were repaid and some were not, but the government has more collection avenues than a private entity, so if they didn't collect, blame them.

The generation is so large that they are absolutely on both ends and in the middle of these issues. I think anyone who says differently is being at least somewhat dishonest. The same goes for the "Greatest Generation", who saved the world and then have worked non-stop since to contribute to it's destruction.

The Boomers are a very mixed bag, they passed on a more equal world (with a lot of help from their parents) to their children but I think it is easy to fess to less opportunity (with a lot of help from their parents).

I also believe a lot of Boomers at some point had a sort of a reverse epiphany, deciding that much of what they fought for in the 60's were childish dreams and got on with buying the Volvo, the SUV, the McMansion, and giving Reagan a chance. Not everyone that was once in the counter-culture but a sizable percentage did sell out.

Some of us have lived a frugal lifestyle all throughout our adult lives. I've never had two houses or three cars ... right now I have half a house (I live in half of my duplex) and only one truck. It's been like that for years. I buy a new pair of jeans maybe once every two years, about the same for new sneakers.

My kids, at least two of them, live much more consumerist lifestyles than I do -- I'm not faulting them for that, just sayin' . I don't own an iPod or a cell phone or a laptop No Blackberry. I'm just an old hippie, and I'm happy that way.