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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 08:52 AM Original message |
Let's stop trying to use the "health care is a right" argument. |
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Cassandra (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 08:56 AM Response to Original message |
1. "Promote the general welfare"... |
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Zavulon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:14 AM Response to Reply #1 |
10. I've tried that. |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 08:57 AM Response to Original message |
2. Losing cause |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:08 AM Response to Reply #2 |
6. I'd like to hear more about how the 9th amendment works here. |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:23 AM Response to Reply #6 |
34. Constitution limits powers |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:00 AM Response to Original message |
3. I agree with you. I like the "Health care is what any first world country with an IOTA of decency |
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TankLV (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:04 AM Response to Original message |
4. NO! HEALTHCARE IS A RIGHT! |
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The_Commonist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:10 AM Response to Reply #4 |
7. I don't think you were paying attention. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:13 AM Response to Reply #4 |
9. You missed the point of the OP. |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:30 AM Response to Reply #9 |
19. personally, i don't give a rat's ass what conservatives and libertarians think about it... |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:58 AM Response to Reply #19 |
26. Let me ask you a question here. Did we get the School Lunch Program |
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alarimer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-15-09 08:54 AM Response to Reply #26 |
95. No, we got school lunch because farmers grew too much food. |
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JFN1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 03:49 PM Response to Reply #19 |
90. Agreed. |
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LuvNewcastle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:05 AM Response to Original message |
5. Health care is a necessity, |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:11 AM Response to Reply #5 |
8. Of course. Necessity is more and more an argument that anybody can understand. |
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sinkingfeeling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:17 AM Response to Reply #8 |
13. What constitutes 'less health care'? Ask them how much their insurance company pays for |
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LuvNewcastle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:18 AM Response to Reply #8 |
14. Less health care. Ha ha. I'll take that chance. |
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HughBeaumont (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:15 AM Response to Original message |
11. Health Care is a HUMAN right, not a Constitutional right. |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:23 AM Response to Reply #11 |
15. Anything we signed on to with the United Nations is a nonstarter for Conservatives. |
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HughBeaumont (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:52 AM Response to Reply #15 |
23. It kind of begs the question, though: why are we entertaining the opinions . . . |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:02 AM Response to Reply #23 |
27. Wow, I'm relieved. I guess you've convinced me. |
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sutz12 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:16 AM Response to Original message |
12. Yep, especially when the "right to healthcare" interferes with their right to a profit. |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:25 AM Response to Original message |
16. free healthcare does not prevent |
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AllieB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:08 AM Response to Reply #16 |
29. But in France and other Western Civilized countries, that number is probably 0%. |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:24 AM Response to Reply #29 |
35. canada bankruptcy.ca |
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AllieB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:29 AM Response to Reply #35 |
38. From someone who makes no bones about quoting from RW sources |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:33 AM Response to Reply #38 |
39. It was one source |
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AllieB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:47 AM Response to Reply #39 |
40. It was not just one link or one talking point. |
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AllieB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:27 PM Response to Reply #39 |
44. It is easily debunked. Here you go: |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:47 PM Response to Reply #44 |
48. 44% to 74.4% |
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AllieB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:52 PM Response to Reply #48 |
49. The issue here is the credibility of the article and the author. |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 01:19 PM Response to Reply #49 |
52. Credibility seems fine to me |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:24 PM Response to Reply #52 |
58. The whole article you cited was composed of anecdotal material... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 07:11 AM Response to Reply #58 |
65. I'm not sure |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 09:13 AM Response to Reply #65 |
66. That "little part" was merely an example, the article is full of "little parts" like that... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 10:10 AM Response to Reply #66 |
68. Maybe |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 10:56 AM Response to Reply #68 |
70. The article is merely the opinion of the author so pointing out the fallacies in his opinion... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 11:11 AM Response to Reply #70 |
72. I take it |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 11:43 AM Response to Reply #72 |
73. The false assumptions are within the article you keep defending... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:04 PM Response to Reply #73 |
74. It backs up claims made in the article I posted :rofl: |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:22 PM Response to Reply #74 |
75. LOL, I see you went directly to only those facts that back up the right wing opinion... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:37 PM Response to Reply #75 |
76. Facts |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:48 PM Response to Reply #76 |
79. I see you are determined to ignore that which does not FIT your... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 01:04 PM Response to Reply #79 |
82. intention |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 01:22 PM Response to Reply #82 |
84. This takes us back to the original post, the one using a right-wing... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 01:37 PM Response to Reply #84 |
85. OMG |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 01:59 PM Response to Reply #85 |
86. LOL, I can see you do not want to discuss the merits of healthcare... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 02:01 PM Response to Reply #86 |
87. The agenda you accuse of is not there n/t |
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AllieB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:37 PM Response to Reply #75 |
77. "You now have the answer as to why your posts generate skepticism from other posters" |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:47 PM Response to Reply #77 |
78. I read the whole article |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:53 PM Response to Reply #78 |
81. When one only posts the negative when they have been provided... |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 01:06 PM Response to Reply #81 |
83. I have said before |
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Spazito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:10 PM Response to Reply #35 |
57. The link you provided did not have anything on it's main page... |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:17 AM Response to Reply #16 |
32. And would that be from an inabilty to pay for treatments received, |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:25 AM Response to Reply #32 |
37. it's from |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:19 PM Response to Reply #37 |
43. If it is misguided, then why are you making that comparison? |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:53 PM Response to Reply #43 |
50. I didn't compare them, |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 01:04 PM Response to Reply #50 |
51. The comparison is implicit in the post - we are talking about the |
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pnutbutr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 01:22 PM Response to Reply #51 |
53. I was responding to this from the OP |
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okieinpain (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:26 AM Response to Original message |
17. does it really take a catastrophic illness to get to financial ruin. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:27 AM Response to Original message |
18. No thank you. |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:50 AM Response to Reply #18 |
22. But the reality is that it IS in our economic self interest as a nation to have |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:11 AM Response to Reply #22 |
30. The actual reality is that hardcore conservatives are not amenable to argument. |
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Hepburn (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 09:15 AM Response to Reply #18 |
67. Totally agree.... |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:32 AM Response to Original message |
20. why worry about what conservatives think about it, and why let them frame the argument..? |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:52 AM Response to Reply #20 |
24. They shouldn't frame the argument and they are effectively losing whatever |
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Blue Meany (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:49 AM Response to Original message |
21. I see it is a national security issue: |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 09:54 AM Response to Reply #21 |
25. Yes, you are right. You can paint a very scary scenario with that argument. |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:03 AM Response to Original message |
28. We hold these truths to be self evident , that all Men are created equal |
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AllieB (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:14 AM Response to Original message |
31. What would resonate w/Conservatives is that small business is crumbling under the weight of health |
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mikeiddy (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:20 AM Response to Original message |
33. I used this one the other day to good effect on a particularly conservative coworker |
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Ms. Toad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:17 PM Response to Reply #33 |
64. Problem is, adding a competing public option |
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mikeiddy (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 10:51 AM Response to Reply #64 |
69. I am in full agreement with you |
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Ms. Toad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-15-09 12:58 AM Response to Reply #69 |
92. If your children are healthy, find them health insurance |
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mikeiddy (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-15-09 11:57 AM Response to Reply #92 |
96. Excellent advice - Thank you.(nt) |
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Ms. Toad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-15-09 07:09 PM Response to Reply #96 |
98. Welcome - |
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ddeclue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:25 AM Response to Original message |
36. NOPE - It's right there in the Declaration of Independence. |
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scheming daemons (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:14 PM Response to Reply #36 |
42. The Declaration is not our governing document... the Constitution is... |
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ddeclue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 01:33 PM Response to Reply #42 |
54. I'm not stupid and it's NOT a mistake. |
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scheming daemons (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 01:44 PM Response to Reply #54 |
55. I agree in principle with your point of view.. my point is that using the Declaration to argue it |
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ddeclue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 05:26 PM Response to Reply #55 |
56. NO IT IS NOT - IT HAS A STRONG CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS |
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DatManFromNawlins (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 12:50 PM Response to Reply #56 |
80. Your argument is delusional |
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proud2BlibKansan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 11:51 AM Response to Original message |
41. No. Because it IS a right and they're just going to have to accept that. |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:31 PM Response to Original message |
45. Sorry but health care is a human right and we at the grass roots should be |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:42 PM Response to Reply #45 |
46. That is my point! We've NOT been making the argument that single payer universal |
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libertypirate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 12:43 PM Response to Original message |
47. Life is a right, without health the value of an individuals life is diminished /nt |
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Thothmes (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 07:35 PM Response to Reply #47 |
91. How do you figure |
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zalinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:39 PM Response to Original message |
59. Why don't you try that argument with |
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handmade34 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:49 PM Response to Original message |
60. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights |
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anonymous171 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:51 PM Response to Original message |
61. Here's my argument: Health care insurance companies are a threat to American freedom. |
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PufPuf23 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:53 PM Response to Original message |
62. Why? We are a nation of great natural and intellectual and .. |
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Maru Kitteh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-13-09 10:59 PM Response to Original message |
63. NO. Remind them that the constitution DOES guarantee you a RIGHT to a trial lawyer |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 10:58 AM Response to Original message |
71. Fuck em. Where in the Constitution are a lot of things spelled out. That's not the point. |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 02:11 PM Response to Reply #71 |
88. I am not arguing here whether health care is a right. At the end of the day, we |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-14-09 03:40 PM Response to Reply #88 |
89. Yes and if you want to argue with conservatives, point out to them other "rights" not spelled out |
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Two Americas (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-15-09 01:05 AM Response to Original message |
93. thanks |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-15-09 07:24 AM Response to Reply #93 |
94. Again, I believe it is a fundamental right that we expect of our democracy. |
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Individualist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-15-09 12:00 PM Response to Original message |
97. Screw the conservatives |
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