Many on this board cheered for the truth when we thought these pics might be released under Bush

Really, what the fuck some of you? What the fuck! This is torture, rape and murder we're talking about here, of potentially innocent people and children...CHILDREN!!! The rationalizations for keeping these horrors secret, when many of them had previously been leaked anyway, are the same bullshit talking points Bush/Cheney used to use.

We were promised accountability

We were promised transparency

Neither of these were promised with the addition of conditions.

Only the full truth and the full implementation of the proper justice in these cases will allow our country to heal and be anything less than a despotic nation in the world's eyes.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

It's all about:

1. Protecting the troops.
2. Not making more enemies.
3. Pragmatism.
4. It'll be released eventually.

And whatever other total BS excuse the worshppiers can come up with to justify the song and dance that's going on right now.

It's kind of like:

The check's in the mail.

There's also almost a compulsion (for those of us who have something critical to say) to give a disclaimer before saying anything bad about the Obama Administration, in order to prove your liberal credentials. I'm disturbed by some posters who have a tendency to defend Obama on any issue, no matter what. I'm afraid some of these people would have made really good Nazis.

edited to add the parenthetical part.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.cagle.com/politicalcartoons/PCcartoons/fairrington.asp&usg=__Qc5iEIb7-ta_OPaMnks78cR8NOk=&h=454&w=600&sz=52&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=qdEWDKY21IPMaM:&tbnh=102&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522Brian%2BFairrington%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

The man is working his ass off trying to make changes but there is only so much he personally can do the rest is up to all the others in government. I know we will get an investigation, in fact its already started, yesterday with sen Whitehouse's commitee hearings. He said himself this is only the beginning of a long ardous road to get at the truth. If I was in uniform right now with this new President in office who btw is saying he is doing something, and they released these pictures, which would cause a huge increase in the violence toward our soldiers, I'd be pissed. Obama knows full well what is the right course of action so please quit shooting him in the foot about this. IMHO

"Brave" John Conyers had the goods on Bushco four years ago on other matters and our own leadership wouldn't go after him. The game is rigged. The monarchy will always be protected and we will never have the moral ground again in the world if we do not face up to this.

We have a new sherif in town now remember.
Apparently john is still worried about what it is they are blackmailing him for. he is a no. This sen Whitehouse investigation is going on and it's under a whole new set of rules.

the old boss". But then I remember this Obama cat, he's pretty friggin' smart and he's got a soul. He couldn't be more different than his predecessor unless he was Dennis Kucinich.

What has the President's "refusal" to release these photos done most effectively? It's created uproar. It's got the media and so many of the formerly sleeping American populace thinking about it, talking about and raising there voices about it...even calling their rep's about it. Imagine that...democracy in action.

I want the photos released. I want full accountability. I know there is more than one way to get both. At least for now, I will hold out hope the person we elected to the highest office understands the same as that he's working on a better way instead of the quickest way.

About this particular situation? He's waiting to see what Congress does, you'd get a faster result watching a snail crossing the interstate.

He already stated that those who conducted the interrogations will not be prosecuted, he's done a 180 on releasing the photos, and the only way an investigation will take place is with bi-partisan support, and Senator Graham pretty much shot that idea down yesterday with his comments.

Not releasing the photos will also give the Taliban the ability to point out that there is no difference between Bush and Obama, and that western law is full of rhetoric, empty promises, and is only used when convenient.

How much more can the violence against the troops get? The Taliban is doing everything it can to kill NATO troops, the Sunnis that the US left high and dry are already pissed because the promises that were made aren't happening, and they're getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop from the majority Sh ia government.

Personally if the troops didn't get pissed because of the lack of body armor, unarmored hummers, shortage of water, electrocuting showers, lack of proper mental and medical care, and the myriad of other things that they have been denied, getting attacked more because of some photos isn't likely to make it much worse then it is now!!!

Sorry, I can't go for fairy tales where Obama Knows Best. He's a politician and he's doing all the odious things pols do. These days, that means a cover-up for crimes against international law.

How do you know we will get an independent investigation? What leads you to make that statement?

BTW, I agree that it's not just up the the state employee who's the head of the exec branch. It's up to all our employees in DC. And right now, most of them are making me ill. Protect the troops -- yeah, way to go with the cynical and calculated use of soldiers -- as Greenwald says, how very Bush-Cheney. Cover up our crimes and then maintain a couple of imperial wars. That'll protect the soldiers. All we need to do is hit a few weddings to really make everyone safe.

is complicit and our President is showing himself to be too.

Obama released the memos. We *know* torture happened. What difference would seeing the photos make? :shrug:

something we don't need right now

We have an occupying army of infidels in their midst actively trying to convert Muslims. We have destroyed their infrastructure, destabilized the region, ruined their economy, raped young girls, tortured young men, murdered entire families. We have killed anywhere from 100,000 to 1,000,000 people -- we were so callous we didn't keep count. We still hold thousands of young men and boys in secret prisons without charges.

Yeah, they're OK with all that, but a few pictures are going to "inflame" them.

Sheesh.

It is our country that is continually insulated from the horrors we commit. Our victims and their families know all too well.

here or there. Americans are up almost in arms over this. Lets give them the time to build the case and then support them when they try this merry band of war criminals.

I don't think the Iraqi people have seen these photos any more than we have and I also think it will further piss everyone off. We have Soldiers in harms way and I think we need to keep being aware of that. Like I've said in other threads I would be pissed if they release these photos. The war criminals are going to be getting their day in court, that process is already started and there will be no turning it back. If bushco doesn't wind up in jail before this is all said and done it will be because they convinced a judge and jury that they don't deserve to be in one not that they won't get their day in court. Thats a given now, their day in court. Nothing personal in all this just my thoughts on the subject.

Doing nothing is pissing them off even more than it is us

If I go out and rape a woman and make a video of it, I can't turn around and claim the video shouldn't be released because it'll destroy my reputation.


I'm not a middle easterner, but the fact that Obama is trying to cover this up rather than press for transparency and accountability will probably inflame people far more than the photos would. People have/had alot of faith in Obama to put this country back on a respectable course. If he tries to cover this up, that'll cause more problems than releasing the photos followed up by a legitimate, transparent investigation and prosecution would.

In another post I wondered what would happen if the NY Times got hold of the photos and said it would publish them. Flashback to the Pentagon Papers. It was during the Vietnam War and the Nixon Admin. said publication of the papers would damage national security at a time of war, essentially what is being argued here. The Supreme Court ruled that the Admin. could not use that as a legitimate reason for prior restraint.

Look, I support President Obama and I am thrilled with him so far. In my heart, I want him to always be right but I have my doubts that the government action to suppress the photos is what we should be doing.

Does the manner or torture matter? Like one type is more torturing than another? Come on.

In a free society,that is. For instance, I would be against a newspaper revealing the identities of CIA assets in foreign countries. That is what was so horrific about the Plame affair. Publishing the location of a troop ship of ours that could be sunk by the enemy is another (that's a favorite example dating back to WWII if not earlier).

Perhaps I have been so disgusted with what the Bush Administration did in my name and covered it up with excuses of national security that I am a bit jaded. I don't mean to say that Obama is in any way like Bush. That's one reason that his explanation, that it would endanger the troops, is so difficult for me. Bush ruined our credibility.

I wish I knew the answer. This is very hard for me.

I go back and forth on the issue of the photos myself. Obama was transparent about the torture when he showed us the memos so....
Pictures / no pictures - I'm not sure it matters.

Yeah. Bush. I think we all have PTBD. :hug:

They serve no purpose? They should be hidden away and never seen by the public?
http://www.holocaust.eichmann.dk/


Hmmm...

Thanks for putting words in my mouth though. :eyes:

this would not only shut them up completely but also, hopefully, bring more of them to our side.

Theyre not going to tell us anything that we dont know already. People were tortured. *sigh*

I'll keep asking though. :hi:

Photos and video are not the same as text. Our brains evolved to process images and sounds, not abstract text. So photos will hit home for far more people about what has been done in our names and by our government.

Really?



Not graphic enough?

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

:shrug:

They have compared this to hazing.

Why not release the audio and video we have of US personnel raping a teenage boy while he screams that Seymour Hersh says that he has?

If we had only had text of Abu Gharib rather than photos the story would've never gained the traction it did.

Thats about the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

Im not saying the original photos never should have been released - I just dont know I see the point of releasing more of the same. Do we really need a video of a boy being raped? We already know that prisoners were sodomized. We have photos. Thats not enough?

What do we gain by keeping them hidden? What do we lose by releasing them? The fact that we have already released photos, to me doesn't justify keeping more photos hidden. In the Cambodian genocide (not that I'm comparing the scope of the 2 situations), releasing photos of one mass grave does not justify hiding photos of another because the people have already seen the first one. That would be like if I said 'there is no need to release photos of the Rwandan genocide since people have already seen photos of the nazi holocaust'. Seeing one doesn't justify hiding the other. People need as much transparency and access to what is done in their names as possible.

We already know we tortured, I'll give you that. But releasing these photos could incite another round of investigations or public outcry that may make it more likely to pressure the judicial, legislative or executive branch to actually uphold the law. I remember when the Abu Gharib photos came out, they were major news for over a year.

And I dont think seeing more photos is going to change that. I think its sweet that so many DUers think that some photos of abused Iraqis are going to outrage those who arent outraged already. Thats simply not the reality of the situation though. The reality is that people just dont care.

But I don't see why that would justify not releasing them. Even if you are right and nobody cares who doesn't already, and the photos are no worse than the ones that already exist, why does that mean we shouldn't release them? Even if they make no difference, that doesn't mean we shouldn't release them.

And you can never tell what'll push someone over the edge into activism and anger. We all had events that pushed us over the edge and turned us against the neocons and their agenda. Who is to say nobody who hasn't been paying attention, after they see the photos on the news, won't become enraged? By that logic, we never should've reported the torture program, wiretapping, the fact that the Iraq war was based on lies, election fraud, Siegelman, etc. because people assume that everyone is already jaded from Iran Contra and Watergate and more news of corruption and political crimes will not make a difference. I forget what it was, but it was about 2006 before I really became enraged at the neocons. So I wasn't paying a bit of attention before that, but most people have stories like that where something is the breaking point.

Even if it didn't make a difference and nobody new was angry, we still have a moral obligation to run the government as transparently as possible.

They have compared this to hazing.

Why not release the audio and video we have of US personnel raping a teenage boy while he screams that Seymour Hersh says that he has?

If we had only had text of Abu Gharib rather than photos the story would've never gained the traction it did.

hannity, beck, and all of their followers across this great land of ours.

:wow: I didnt know that. wow. Im speechless.

I seriously did not know that. No need to act like such an asshole.

you're getting your ass kicked all over this thread because of your fucking attitude. furthermore, if you had no idea that the right is trying to downplay the severity of the torture that occurred, perhaps i could suggest you bring yourself up to speed before offering your opinion on something you so clearly have no grasp of. have an annointed day.

I guess I musta missed that. Sorry I dont listen to Rush and Faux like you do. You're lovely.

you might want to poke some holes in that bubble so you don't suffocate.

Or just on the inter-tubes?

because i disagree with obama over this issue, i've been accused of NOT voting for him, and you have as much as implied that i listen to rush and watch fox. so you can prolly see why i'd be a little on edge with this bullshit.

The reason for releasing the photos is that it would bring this thing to an end. The photos would finally be out and people would be able to decide for themselves how bad the photos were. Also, Obama said he would release the photos. Finally, it has been reported that the photos are not that much worse than the ones previously released. If that is the case I cannot see a reason to not release the photos.

surprised how many people STILL call Obama a Muslim, still have their heads in the sand about what was done in Iraq AND STILL refuse to believe that America is wrong. Some of the most vile comments are made on a regular basis. It's almost laughable listening to them, but it's THEM that keep spreading vitriol about Obama. So many STILL say he's not even a CITIZEN of America and was born in AFRICA!!

Release the photos, visibility and exposure don't lie. Of course there is always the "doctored" photo theory, but ALL of them can't be doctored. Let the RW idiots SEE for themselves! They aren't going to check the internet sites that don't agree with them, so any commentary is useless.

What is that they say about "lyin eyes?" We tortured, it's against the Geneva Conventions, people DO KNOW, the people of Iraq aren't singing our praises, but to stand up and say... Yes, we want this corrected and we apologize would seem to be a good start at what Obama called DIPLOMACY!! Reaching out, connecting with our enemies... all that STUFF we heard about before the swearing in as POTUS!

Sorry, I think our troops have been trained well (or so they say) and we're told we have the greatest military in THE WORLD, so why HIDE this??

plenty of folks have posted good and valid reasons for their release.

Because new photos showing us more of what we've already seen will make some huge difference. Brilliant. :crazy:

go figure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5648585&mesg_id=5648585

After Tucker and Menchaca were beheaded, and the photos released, there was outrage in the USA "HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN!!!!!!" Steven Green & buddies crimes were unable to be covered up any more.

How'd that go. Wheres the outrage? You think this time will be different? :shrug:

Yes, I think this time it will be different

You think people will *suddenly* care now when they didnt before? Why?

One of the reasons the cover up of their crimes had to be stopped. It became obvious that not only did they do war crimes, but that those were covered up UNTIL Manchaca and Tucker were kidnapped, beheaded, and the pictures shown.

THAT is the reason Green et al were arrested, THAT is the reason his sergeant got a less-than-honorable discharge. Now that "war is hell" has not been a good enough defense in fed court of law, I would like to see the arrests go higher, in that case.

Oh joy. :eyes:

If we see the pictures, people will get the idea that this stuff is as horrible as we know it to be. They'd know Hannity getting waterboarded would be a stunt.

People simply *cant* imagine what "torture" means unless they see MORE pictures.
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

I guess maybe its like the Two Girls One Cup phenom. You hear about it, it sounds just disgusting, but some people still had to go see it for themselves.

Some people like gore.

but I would add that Bushco committed the crimes. I disagree with Obama here but those photos will be coming out.

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:puke:

I'm one of the people you'd probably pin with that label, but I disagree with this decision.

That doesn't mean I've lost control of my fingers and am getting my screen flecked with spittle in my RAAAAAGE.

:kick:

I'd rather people be encouraged to be more thoughful and considerate without resorting to violence.

:fistbump:

I don't recall ever advocating violence.

Rather than attemps to provoke discord via inflammatory statements.

and language is a wonderful thing..it's just easier to be inflammatory than it is to express thoughtful opinions

Actually, the more I think about it, if the photos do get released the RW spin machine will put the seed of doubt in enough minds that they were faked by the "tree hugging libruls" that the Fox Flock will believe it. Keith, Rachel, Gene Robinson et al. will show the truth on MSNBC and the ridiculous stalemate of realities we've created for ourselves in this country will continue unabated.

is determined through the facts I think I know. Must just be me. I have been wrong about the 'truth' before.

...

I'm not going to lose my fucking mind over it and start acting like an asshole.

And that goes for some on BOTH sides of this argument. Christ. Disgusting.

Releasing them now will NOT help prosecute Cheney.

It will do the exact opposite, it'll associate them with Obama and the media shit-storm over him endangering the troops will ultimately help Cheney.

You don't know me.

It's just surfaced within the last few hours and it's pretty disgusting. Something I would expect from Free Republic -- this whole idea that wanting the photos released is for some kind of sick, twisted, self-gratification.

You should be ashamed of yourself for repeating this filth.

Enforcing "Message Discipline".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html

McCarthy style tactics. Disgusting.

:eyes:

Though it may take a few years, they will get the death penalty.

I can just feel it coming.

I can't believe I even have to type this on DU. Obama will not pardon Cheney or Bush. Period.

Please, tell us more.

Why? Because I pay attention to reality, not RW bullshit.

I kind of pay attention too -- and not just DU "Obama Fan Club" bullshit.

That's fucking great. I'm so happy for you.

If that's what you believe then why the hell are you still here? This is Democratic Underground, not bullshit RW meme underground.

You will have to supply a link for that.

Actually, the Right Wing is using your argument.
It is the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party that is calling for Truth and Transparency.

The genocide in Vietnam and Cambodia shocked the world into submission, while Latin America was literally beaten into submission. This will not happen again. The USA is now seen as a weakening empire, on its way to become a paper tiger.

The Bushler Empire will end with a whimper at the gallows.

but the US is not a weakening empire. The US will be the dominant force in the world for six or seven more decades at the very least.

There is no one to oppose us. Invading the US is almost an impossibility. There is no place to launch an invasion from. Even if someone tried, they would have to come by sea. We dominate the seas and will for a long time. We will not allow anyone to build a naval force to threaten us. Russia isn't up to the task and has its own problems for now. China is a paper tiger. It is not the powerhouse -- either economically or militarily -- that people think it is. China is, for all intents and purposes, an island. It faces the sea and is essentially landlocked on all other fronts. Africa -- fuggedabowtit. South America -- same. Europe -- not gonna do it. The only place we could face opposition is from the Middle East, should it somehow put aside its differences and coalesce against us.

And, this, ladies and gentlemen, is why American foreign policy is to keep the ME as destabilized as possible. We want them fighting among themselves. This is why we went to Iraq and this is why Obama is keeping us there. As long as we're there, the ME will remain fragmented and weak. And that's just what the US wants.

Once you leave the USA, and stay away for a while, you will realize it is Americans who are living in a "we are the ultimate power on Earth" bubble. The USA does not need to be "invaded" to collapse. It is already happening from within. The US has been slowly losing power since approximately 1970.

Though I agree that our geography does protect us to a certain extent, for now, our military is not nearly as strong as you presented above. It is stretched beyond capacity, and fixing it would require billions if not trillions more than the national budget will allow. But if it makes you feel better to believe otherwise, so be it.

I will be happy to just see our exhausted troops return home, and the space shuttle fixed so our astronauts can return safely. :patriot:

Are all our best patriots going to become expatriates?

:D

It will be you. So what new country are you sharing your amazing photoshops with? Or is that classified? You can PM me if so. B-)

Our country is at its weakest when 19 men can hijack four planes and fly one of them into the Pentagon and two of them into the World Trade Center towers while everyone who is supposed to be on top of such a situation instead is sitting around waiting for the White House to tell them what to do.

Thank god the Bushes didn't decide to overthrow us. We would have sat around waiting for the White House to tell us what the new government would be like. Only the passengers on one plane rose up. So maybe 25% of our population value their freedoms and will rise up. The other 75% will just sit there. Doing nothing. Waiting for the White House.

All it would take would be seven nuclear devices to destroy us. One in Los Angeles. One in San Francisco. One in Houston. One in New Orleans. One in Miami. One in Washington. One in New York. The major ports/trade centers. And of course our government. And suddenly, we no longer exist as a nation. The survivors would wish they hadn't survived.

Piece of cake at this point. Don't think so? You need to go back to 9/11.

The Bushes knew planes were going to be hijacked. They just didn't know when or where. Or what was going to unfold once the planes were hijacked. They were played for fools by terrorists. As we all were and as we all are.

The world has changed. We no longer rule the world. We are not a weakening empire. We are a falling empire.

...no one invaded the Soviet Union.
It collapsed all by itself.

Over extended in unwinable Imperial Wars.....hmmmm.

:puke:

the photos to be held until they could be shown in court?

Seems like it might be better to have jurors who hadn't seen the photos. Would those who are so "outraged" prefer juries composed of people who said they never saw these photos on the news and never formed an opinion about them?

Or, maybe we just convict Cheney and everyone else without a trial. And that would be different from Cheney worked toward?

Or a special prosecuter then I'm on board 100%.

you just care that that the photos are released to the public because it will justify your outrage.

In fact, I won't, other than to point out it was a really stupid question. Maybe you should read the original piece and try to comprehend it this time.

never mind the possibility that St. Pelosi could know AND be lied to at the same time: why, I even heard somewhere that she herself is capable of lying! basically, it's Sy Hersh vs. Lindsey Graham and IWR/off-the-table-for-My-Man-George Pelosi

:sarcasm:

The discussion about these pictures and their release has been around for a long time.

If people here were really against the pictures being released, they would have been against it the entire time. Instead, most here were for the release of the pictures. I certainly can't recall any threads saying they shouldn't be. Most were happy to see the handiwork of Cheney, et al become concrete and undeniable and hopefully lead to a groundswell calling for prosecution. At least that's how I remember it. Every once in a while a mournful little thread would pop up and someone would ask - "Any word on the release of those photos?" and all would commiserate over scumbag Bush trying to hide his criminality.

The ones against the release consistly have been Republicans, who see/saw it as a black eye on the Bush administration and the country in general. Well, I think we earned the black eye and no amount of make-up can cover it up.

The second Obama changes his previous position (which was supported here) of releasing the pictures, everything changes. NOW our soldiers will be at risk, NOW the world will be inflamed, etc. etc. All arguments made previously and often by the Republicans. What has changed? Nothing except that now Obama is not releasing the pictures. And everyone is jumping through hoops to accept and re-iterate arguments they had previously rejected, because they have to stay in agreement with Obama. That's fine, but at least acknowledge that the only thing in the situation that has changed is Obama's stance.

The MOST sickening thing I have seen in the threads so far have been the posters who say that anyone who wants the pictures released must be a closest child abuser/pedophile seeking sick gratification with the release. Right. I'm sure that's why the ACLU and other non-elastic progressives are still seeking their release.

Kinda like the "after" photo on those magic hair restorer commercials.

...have people that represent us that we can complain to, isn't it? The Obama Administration sucks big time..that said I feel so much better!

thats all a lot of people care to talk about, it seems. anything deeper then that is verboten.

only care about that? Actually, I think the same level of concern applies to most subjects, and none in depth. Like your post for example.

and attack others for critiquing Obama, I will call them as I see them.

I don't know what people have been attacking you, but I would think it might be more beneficial to take it up with them on an individual basis..Or..call 'them' as you see 'them'..rather than to presume to know what lots of people think, or make blanket accusations about 'lots of DU'ers'.

there isnt anyone on DU who has issues with the critiquing of Obama.
how in the world could I argue with your insightful wisdom !

I don't blame 'lots of DU'ers'..if that is my insightful wisdom...thanks! I didn't know I was so special.

The one post about his girls is a story about a newspaper using an Obama girl picture with a story about murder in Chicago.

Your claim does not withstand the evidence.

That'll show all those crazy Obama supporters!

thought these pictures were about to be released and he wanted to get out in front of the story. That's why he and daughter Liz were doing the full court press. They could have saved themselves a lot of time and aggravation if they had known the pictures were going to remain suppressed for a while longer.

I need to know something's being done about the problem.

Obviously there was zero chance of that happening under Bush. I'm still quite willing to give Obama's administration the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that you don't NEED to see the pictures is entirely irrelevant to the issue of whether the nation discloses them. It's a public policy issue, and the need of a single person to see them is not the issue and never has been.

Whether it is the Bush administration or the Obama administration, the wrongdoing requires disclosure. You may hide your eyes as you deem appropriate, but that doesn't affect the public need for these disclosures.

I don't think the country, or the world, requires the photos themselves. I think the requirement is for action on what happened. We already KNOW what happened - photos are not really the point. Information, and then action, are required.

You belong to the "let's not look at things that might upset us" camp. I don't.

I belong to the "we voted for the good guy, let's give him a bit of room to get things done" camp. I trust that there are things progressing, whether some person on an internet message board has viewed particular photos or not.

The fact that it happened is already out there. Photos can be important, but if right now there are reasons not to release them (reasons perhaps that will have an impact on action later), I'm still willing to trust this administration. This administration vs. the last administration is all the difference in the world right now.

You would rather not "worry your pretty little mind" over them.

Fine. I on the other hand am fully able to think in the abstract and know fully well how horrible those photos will be, yet, I'm also aware of the fact that a great many people do not think in the abstract rush limpballs comes to mind and his ilk, and require photos to get the point across.

And like the previous poster said, this is an issue of public policy, not one of emotion. Transparency is just that, or do you prefer the opaque kind?

Shown and shoved right in their faces. Otherwise we'll continue to get this white wash and newspeak from the MSM about "enhanced interrogation techniques". Let someone viewing a picture of someone their son or daughter's age getting raped by a flashlight and I'll bet it becomes torture real quick.

...two weeks ago when he first agreed to release the photos.

I don't believe these photos are the important thing. I believe an ongoing investigation is the important thing. And I believe that Obama's administration likely has a good reason for holding back now - one that might in fact relate to the investigation.

Pictures are not going to offer further information. They will certainly add emotional impact, but I don't think emotional impact is the key here. I think law is the key here. And I think there are some brilliant legal minds at work - starting with the president.

The longer the White House refuses to appoint an Independent Prosecuter (as requested by the ACLU), the stronger the perception that they are protecting Tortures and War Criminals.

THAT is what YOU are "not getting".

THAT'S what it all boils down too- we can't have any worldwide shunning of our imperialism.

when we become an international pariah- their bottom lines will whither and die.

To be termed a Democrat or a "Progressive" does one now have to be against all American businesses? Our new slogan should be "More unemployment for the U.S.A."?

Or maybe it will be good for Americans who travel overseas if these photos get released--it will make their lives more dangerous. And that will be good for the Democratic Party because what we really want is to bankrupt every American company possible. And making it more difficult for them to send their employees overseas--that will be helpful to our current economic problems. "Democrats for the Destruction of American Business"--wow, that ought to win hearts and minds.

the truth should not be beholden to the whims of the 'captains of industry'.

try again...from the beginning- and this time, try to read s-l-o-w-l-y.

embarrasses me.

weather-vein politics.

before they get the concept.

I don't cared if they aren't released to the press. I want them submitted as evidence in open court.

Televised on C-Span.

I was confused since OP seemed to be first taking us to task for wanting photos released, then advocating releasing them. I asked for clarification since it was confusing and shadow graciously clarified for me.

I agree that they should be released, and those who say "This shit is porn for sadistic mother-fucker" miss the point.

Here is link to my "why they should be released" post from yesterday since photos do hit in a much more emotional way than words and they need to be released. Steven Green and his buddies are in prison for war crimes because of photos of Menchaca and Tucker's beheadings were released.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5648585&mesg_id=5648585

a year from now Shad, and I'm still alive, then I hope you'll rub my face in this.

I was one of those anxious for the release- I've been one arguing against torture- against the illegal war- against using violence to answer violence- I think you know that.

I'm not giving up on anything with the decision Obama announced yesterday. I don't believe he wants to cover-up anything. I don't believe he CAN cover it up even if he did want to. The memos came out. THEY hold the major keys to prosecution of the bush/cheney crimes. The 44 photos are of incidents that have already been examined. That doesn't minimize their impact or importance, it DOES put them into a kind of perspective.

We DO need to face up to what 'we've' done. Our nation NEEDS to look at the evidence of what we try to hide behind pretty names "enhanced interrogation techniques"- "collateral damage"- etc- we cannot live in denial or say 'we don't want to know'-

Try not to let your anger, the frustration and discomfort that is all around, cause you to jump ahead and put 'us' somewhere we haven't gotten to yet. Not that much has changed after Obama's announcement yesterday. The photos still exist. The evidence is out there, and it's growing. The media and spin doctors are trying to take the spotlight off of the deeds that were done, and the people responsible- they focus on 'flip-flop' 'liz cheney says 'we won' 'rove says pelosi knew' 'Obama does a 180' etc.

We're letting OTHERS frame the issues- if we do that, we're never going to succeed.

I hope you'll forgive me for disagreeing with you. We ARE in this together, and I do care about you, and what you think.

:hug:

blu~

I know you're on the side of the angels. I could be completely wrong of course, but there's a stubborn streak in me for our country to stop playing politics and for our new President to stop playing chess and get on the rugby field and get his hands dirty.

thanks my friend.

I could be wrong- but I believe we're going to look back on this and cry-
And also be glad at having learned, made ammends (as much as possible) and are fervently diligent about living as responsible citizens of the planet earth.

:grouphug:

Sorry, as much as I'm a fan of Obama, I can't agree with withholding evidence of torture, especially if it's torture of children.

Obama's on the wrong side on this one. We need to expose everyone involved in torture, get some sunlight on this whole mess, and bring the perpetrators (especially Bush and Cheney, and other in high positions who gave the orders) to justice.

Anybody who would have paid attention during the primaries would not be surprised.

have to Trust him......

:sarcasm:

people making excuses for this shit!

Please read this and pass it on..and ask those who today are cheerleaders for hiding the truth ..where were they 2 weeks ago on this????????

Glen asks the best questions ............

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/13/photos/index.html

Glen Greenwald's question to people defending Obama's position on torture photos

"...(5) For all of you defend-Obama-at-all-cost cheerleaders who are about to descend into my comment section and other online venues to explain how Obama did the right thing because of National Security, I have this question: if you actually want to argue that concealing these photographs is the right thing to do, then you must have been criticizing Obama when, two weeks ago, he announced that he would release them. Otherwise, it's pretty clear that you don't have any actual beliefs other than: "I support what Obama does because it's Obama who does it." So for those arguing today that concealing these photographs is the right thing to do: were you criticizing Obama two weeks ago for announcing he would release these photographs?"


...As Judge Hellerstein wrote in rejecting the Bush argument -- now the Obama argument -- that disclosure would jeopradize the troops: "the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed."

We are either for the truth, or we are not. This is not a Democrat/Republican issue - it's a matter of are we willing to face the truth? I am, hope the rest of yall are too. Thanks for posting this shadowknows69.

Thank god we threw out the despot and replaced him with a more charismatic leader.

but it looks like Cheney won this chess match. He put on the pressure and got the result he wanted.

This is a flip flop defeat for the President.

they seem to keep repeating the same bullshit over and over and are still using the same talking points. You really have to be politically brainwashed to fall for it.

You only speak out for truth when it doesn't inconvenience your side, or make your side look bad.

The hypocrisy is amazing.

I don't think we should criticize the administration willy nilly, but if Obama makes bone headed moves like this then all bets are off.

:(

...is to avoid poisoning the jury pool in eventual prosecutions.

as Shrub-o-matic. I had no illusions that Obama was anything other than a corporate man when I voted for him. But I expected better than this.

K&R!
:kick:

There is a difference Shadow. But let me say I agree that the torturers should be prosecuted and the full truth be known but I understand Obama's decision and here is why we can look at it differently.
Bush was THE ONE who was responsible and we knew that. His wanting to stop the photos was a cover up. In Obama's case we know that he in not trying to cover it up (why would he have released the first stuff).
I am not saying they should not be released. All I'm saying is that the motives are different here and i think we can feel differently in this case.

Is getting a million more hits than the column I just spent an hour and a half writing, I'm giving my other thread a plug here

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5660205&mesg_id=5660205>

please check it out. My aching brain and fingers thank you.

If you do "you will be electrocuted" is what this prisioner was told.



Thom Hartmann said yesterday that the unreleased photos may show torture and rape of children as Sy Hersch has reported in the New Yorker.

Lot of hypocrisy here.

I was on a jury that was deliberating a case where a couple tortured and murdered their 2 year old daughter. It took them 2 days to do the job.

I got to see the photos. I agree that I couldn't comprehend the result without seeing the photos. Beliene me when I say that I wish any one of you had seen them instead of me.

I don't think I could have voted to convict without seeing those photos. But... if I weren't on that jury the photos would have been sensationalism.

Tell us they are there. Tell us what's in them. Show them to the judge. Show them to the jury. I don't need another memory.

And a special, non-partisan, shit, not even from this country maybe, prosecuter. I consider myself a journalist at heart so I would view them if I could for that reason. So I could tell the tale to people who might not want to see. I fear the option of the press simply describing these horrors to us. The mainstream press will euthanize the truth with euphemism and the pitiful few of us that seek the whole truth will again just have the memories and no justice to show for it. At least in your unfortunate tour of the evils of man and woman, justice was done.


Edit to add: You also can opt not to look. I think some "everyman" should, but it should be out there in my opinion for each person to be able to answer that question for themselves.

The last six months here have been very enlightening -- it fun to watch many in a community suddenly defending under O the same they decried under Bush. You could get a serious case of whiplash. :D

Fuck "party" -- stay true to your principles. :hi:

:wow: :wow: :wow: