Global Warming: It's too late.

It's a dirty secret. As governments get ready for Copenhagen, they gather to give the impression they are doing something. Anything will do. The train has left the station.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/17/monbiot-copenhagen-emission-cuts.

Six? Eight? Ten degrees? Who knows? Actually we are getting firmer numbers. Nine degrees. A 90% chance of at least Nine degrees.


http://www.reuters.com/article/mnCarbonEmissions/idUS148975034620090522

Of all the observations taken, the most ominous is not the shrinking ice caps, it's methane.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/exclusive-the-methane-time-bomb-938932.html

Why was The Independent "passed details of preliminary findings" on a non attributable basis. It's rather simple. As a greenhouse gas, methane overwhelms marginal or major changes in the levels of carbon dioxide. And atmospheric methane is making its move:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29615147

So, in Copenhagen, they can argue about whether China, now the largest CO2 emitter can manage a 3% reduction a year, anytime soon, or debate India's proposal of C02 target per person per nation, HMS Climate Change has broken the ice. Deck chairs coming soon.

At some time, an interest tipping point will happen. Climate skeptics will see the point of becoming rabid climate change advocates, and those pushing the hard yards to reduce emissions will become increasing skeptical of the mounting scientific evidence.

As George Monbiot says: "however unlikely success might be, we can't afford to abandon efforts to cut emissions - we just don't have any better option."

Absolutely true. But by 2020, I doubt the "we must adapt" will be whispered. It will be screamed.

...we haven't done anything about it for the past 20-50 years when we SHOULD have been doing something - that's why it's too late now.

The pissy little pretenses Obama's EPA have made towards curbing greenhouse gas emissions? THIRTY SOMETHING MPG in SEVEN years? HOW ABOUT 50 MPG IN TWO YEARS?

Nope. No such. It's a plug nickle. Worthless.


TOO LITTLE - WAAYYY TO LITTLE

TOO LATE - WAAAYY TOO LATE


We're fvcked. Royally.

"pissy little pretenses Obama's EPA have made" "Nope. No such. It's a plug nickle. Worthless". Next time you run for president! Maybe you can do a better job.

:cry:

You poor witto thing.

I voted for him and supported his candidacy more than I've ever supported any other candidate. And that being so, if I WANT to criticize him and feel it's justified - I WILL.

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It's too late to do anything after all. Why waste time with the political process?

Its not only a right but a responsibility when they don't stick to their campaign promises. Obama told us to keep him in line. We need to be very loudly vocal about it.

with him. Things take time. I really don't see it as something to argue over. Cut him some slack.He'll come through.

Clearly, he's better than the alternative but we absolutely can't cut him some slack right now. We need real change and kept promises. We need to inundate the white house with our very legitimate concerns. I'm not trying to argue with you but I strongly disagree. We need to take our responsibility seriously and communicate our disappointment.

for a while. I'm not ready to call him a liar yet!

and you again repeat that . . . "it takes time" re Obama ---

you're in denial of what is going on.

There doesn't seem to be ANY leaders with the political fortitude to do it for whatever arrogant human flaw that makes us feel masters of our own destiny.

I'm starting to accept the fact that it may be too late as well. Our Mother will shake off her reckless children called "humanity" and rebuild herself.

Around 15 years or so ago, there was an article in the NY Times which was reporting
that the dams and reservoirs our Army Engineers had built over the past 50 years
"were impacting the rotation of the earth."

If you look at the Pentagon's warning to Bush that GW was a greater danger to us than
"terraism" they talk about the chaos to come -- chaotic weather, increasing earthquakes,
tornadoes, cyclones -- everything will be more severe.

Back to the 1980's we had already changed weather patterns -- El Nino and La Nina are
Global Warming. So have other systems been changed.

There's a 50 year delay in Global Warming -- i.e., what we are feeling right now only
reflects our damage to the planet back to 1959. Consider what we have done since then.

More than 20 years ago, I began looking at just the reports of pollution of the earth --
it was obvious then that we would not survive our own behavior.

I've stopped talking about this publickly - person to person -- because it's too painful
at this point to tell people with kids or still having kids what it all means.

Which would have been the mid 70's. Hell, the Native Americans were trying to warn us as we were slaughtering them. Why did "asshole" end up being the dominant human trait over intelligence. It would have all been ok if we didn't get these fucking opposable thumbs. Soon as that happened we started building shit to kill ourselves with.

But we were pushed away as ridiculous, using the same arguments Exxon Mobil trotted out again in their multimillion dollar PR campaigns decades later. Climate changes have occurred throughout history. It's a natural thing. Cutting back on oil use will hamper our businesses. We don't have enough space for solar cells. Solar is too expensive.

And people warning about climate change tried to use the more moderate climate consequences as what could happen with increasing temperatures, in order to avoid appearing too alarmist. But people just took that as -- Oh well, that doesn't sound so bad. We have lots of time.

Then Reagan came in with his MORNING IN AMERICA, PARTY HARDY! mentality and ripped the solar panels off the White House roof.

Jimmy Carter tried to popularize wearing sweaters. Did so during his fireside chats from the White House. He was mocked as a silly geek. All he was going was seeing the handwriting on the wall and trying to push the idea of reducing our dependence on foreign oil and funding renewable energy development. But no, he was a boring geek talking doom and gloom. The people wanted Grandpa Reagan to tell them none of that bothersome cutting back would be necessary. Skip that annoying recycling. IT'S MORNING IN AMERICA! Have fun and buy up those junk bonds. Get yourself a big old SUV and have some fun already!!

Then when Clinton Gore took over, the Republicans kept us all busy prosecuting the President's sex play with his intern and expressing our horror and revulsion over that dalliance. Investigating a paltry real estate deal and his wife's travel bookings. Keeping the Democrats on the defensive so the more progressive elements wouldn't push Clinton to do too many radical things. We attended the climate conferences but kept resisting signing agreements that called for carbon emission curbs, citing what a burden it would place on U.S. businesses.

Then the corporate media did a smear job on the geeky Al Gore when he ran for president. I wanted him very much because I knew he would seriously address climate change and other environmental issues. But the media darlings on the liberal and conservative side panned Al Gore in favor of a pathological liar with a war profiteer VP in the wings. I wanted a geeky president because I knew the dangerous scenarios of uncontrolled global warming, and feared the ruthless supply-sider Dick Cheney. But the punditocracy preferred the guy you'd like to have a beer with, rather than the awkward sounding geek who had downsized government and supported a presidency that left the nation with a budget surplus.

Thanks to the liberal pundits and conservative media conglomerates, we allowed The Beer Guy and The War Profiteer to take over our government. The oil boys who preferred massive wars to dominate the remaining oil reserves, rather than imaginative engineering to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. They preferred to subsidize the purchase of SUVs and Hummers, rather than to impose mileage standards. They were all about privatization and no-bid contracts for their friends who did a heck of a job managing our economy and national security. They gave no-bid contracts to their friends to handle our voting systems too, so even though our soldiers families had to hold bake sales to buy armor for them, and we had ventured into torture at Abu Ghraib, The Beer Guy was declared the winner, instead of the awkward geek war hero who wanted to institute an Apollo program to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, for national security and environmental reasons. Those of us who questioned the results in Ohio were told to shut up-- we were just silly conspiracy theorists. Never mind that we were later proven true. Thank goodness we persisted in getting more states to clamp down on Republican election manipulation in 2008, enough to get President Obama into the White House.

So here we are, friends, because Al Gore was panned as a dork with his "lock box" for social security funding and desire to pursue carbon-emissions trading and other methods to reduce global warming. Because Al Gore seemed like a goody-goody and was fun to ridicule, we got one of the most destructive administrations in our nation's history and zoomed further along toward the point of no return with global warming.

Excellent recap.

When we are no longer around to maintain anything, Nature will merely destroy every single remnant of our civilization including the dams and restore the Earth to its natural state. The Earth will survive. It was here long before we were. And has survived natural cycles far worse than this. It just destroyed what it needed to in order to survive. And it will destroy what it needs to now in order to survive.

but as George Carlin once said, the planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas...

greed. The interests of a tiny handful-the ruling elite- will ultimately doom most life on this planet to extinction. Innovation is ignored or discouraged, the truth attacked or silenced, and all to serve the interests of a few old guys who won't suffer the consequences and their paid lackeys in governments around the world. One wonders if, in the dark of the night, Obama is awakened with thoughts of terror when he considers the world he leaves for his daughters.

Yes they will. How many ordinary people abhorred the things done in their name. They are lost in history, without a voice.

The parasites that rule this world have had one major problem going back at least 40 years, far too many people. This will solve it as no other option could.

They only need less than a billion people to maintain their dominance and there are very few methods available to reach that goal while leaving the earth habitable. Plagues are very risky, wars too inefficient, and starvation just doesn't work.

Some things never change.

"Survival of the fittest" and look around and see who calls himself "fit". They're often the sleaziest, least worthy representatives of humanity.

The underground cities/bunkers/tombs have been built since the cold war and the entrance price must be a billion dollars and your soul; near as I can tell from the likely guest list so far. I doubt I'd want to survive with some of those people.

that's not necessarily true.

The amount of chaos, rupture will be extreme --

Can you imagine the impact of the tsunami back a few years ago on the earth?

Imagine the impact of all the atomic bombs we're exploded in the atomosphere ---

and below ground?

In the 1960's, we exploded atomic weapons in space -- presumably in an attempt to

wipe out the Van Allen Radiation Belts!!! Guess why?

Many areas are already suffering severe disruptions to their communities.

And there is a 50 year delay in Global Warming -- no one knows how this will all

compound, but it will certainly be speeding up even faster. We are only now feeling

the effects of human activity back to 1959!

Scientists tell us that the planet has tilted on its axis several times during its existence. Just imagine that or imagine the planet being hit by an asteroid six miles across. Earth survived. Most of her inhabitants did not.

The elites are just like the rest of us except greedier and more ruthless. All this malarkey about the elites planning this is bullshit. Does anyone think they want the oceans to be filled with frickin' jellyfish because they no longer support any other aquatic life? Hell no. They just want to live like kings and that's what they do. They have no idea what the future holds because most of them don't really give a shit except as it relates to their accumulated wealth and power.

especially if we get a polar shift --

Additionally, the dams and reservoirs our Army Corps of Engineers built from the late 1940's

on are "impacting the rotation of the earth."

The Global Warming effects you are feeling right now reflect only the damage we have done to
the planet up to 1959 -- there is a 50 year delay in Global Warming.

We have actually changed weather systems -- El Nino/La Nina -- are Global Warming.

The planet has survived for billions of years -- however, look back on just the destruction
we have caused in the last 500 years!

Again there are no guarantees the planet will keep turning --

Indeed, a number of the crop circles showed our area of the solar system, MINUS the earth.


The elites are just like the rest of us except greedier and more ruthless. All this malarkey about the elites planning this is bullshit.

This is naive. Patriarchy has been at war against nature for tens of thousands of years.
It's underpinning, organized patriarchal religion, has warred on the planet --
"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" as examples of the license to exploit --
and warred on the majority gender on the planet -- women.
Patriarchy has warred on animal life --
And you're suggesting that all of that is unplanned -- accidental?
The Bible was written to cement patriarchy.

You evidently have also missed the Royal Academy of Science attack on the oil industry and
specifically ExxonMobil for its decades long decepton/lies - misinformation campaigns costing
billions in order to confuse and deceive the public re Global Warming.

Were those campaigns unplanned ... ? Was the billions spent unplanned . . . ?

How about ExxonMobil's 20+ year propaganda campaign on the Op-Ed pages of the NY Times --
$20,000 and more every day for the NY Times. Do you think there was no alliance there?
Do you think that ExxonMobil was merely telling the trust as they understood it!!!!????

Does anyone think they want the oceans to be filled with frickin' jellyfish because they no longer support any other aquatic life? Hell no.

Granted overfishing may be meer stupidity -- mercury in our oceans poisoning the fish still
there may be stupidity --- but the bi-product of capitalism is garbage. And, in order to
have capitalism proceed, they were willing to pollute our air, water, soil, oceans.
At some point they have understood this damage, but in their suicidal rush to power/wealth,
they have lied about it. And, capitalism has made a united front in spreading those lies
and in buying our government and elected officials in order to prevent anyone there from
telling the truth -- or doing anything about it.

They just want to live like kings and that's what they do. They have no idea what the future holds because most of them don't really give a shit except as it relates to their accumulated wealth and power.

I do agree that the issue for the elite is power and control over others . . .

But it's still here. There is plenty of evidence of massive tsunamis possibly generated by polar shifts or strikes by extraterrestrial objects like asteroids. The planet is still here. We may damage the surface but it's very unlikely that we will do enough damage to blow the planet up--even if we had a massive nuclear war.

Yes, patriarchy has been at war with nature for tens of thousands of years, but it only recently obtained the scientific know-how to measure such things as methane levels in the atmosphere and the ozone layer's role in cooling the planet. Until recently, there was no reason for human elites to suspect that we might upset the balance of the planet to the point that we might endanger our own existence. So, while they were planning their own future of controlling the peoples and the resources of the Earth they certainly did not plan to bring upon themselves and their minions the destruction that global warming of seven to ten degrees would bring on. That is what I'm saying is accidental.

Exxon's massive spending to deny the effects or existence of global warming were planned but not as part of some greater scheme to destroy the planet and its occupants--Exxon included. Their planning was geared toward maximizing profits, not a future world with no humans or animals. It's the law of unintended consequences writ large. They neither foresaw nor cared whether they were damaging the planet beyond repair. All they cared about or planned for was more power and more money. That's because corporations have no conscience. They only have a mandate to maximize profits and that is what these guys are trying to do EVEN NOW knowing full well the consequences of their insanity.

It's not just capitalism that's doing this. It's consumerism. I don't consider the Chinese economy capitalistic, yet it is consumeristic/industrial, and it is destroying the Chinese people's environment as surely as we are destroying ours. The same thing applies to India now. It's all about economic dominance, which is all about industrial and commercial dominance, and which has produced a byproduct called global warming that is the UNPLANNED result of all of this power-mongering by the elites.

Take a 3/4 full bucket of water and holding it by the handle, begin slowly
to swing it in a circle on one side of your body . . . which should extend
from over your head to somewhere near your toes, but not hitting the ground.
Keep at it - you'll eventually feel a huge tug. That's the impact.

For many other reasons, ten years ago we were talking about dismantling dams --
because of the damage they do in many different ways.

The planet may also be facing a polar shift --

Additionally, not only did we explode atomic weapons in the atmosphere, but
for a very long time we engaged in underground testing. In fact, we let England
use our sites to test their weapons. We've also contaminated our oceans with
nuclear waste -- the Russians into the North Sea, Americans into the Pacific.
Currently, Israeli and US weapons manufacturing is so closely intertwined that
you almost can't tell the difference between them.
And, Bush exploded a large bomb in waters off of Florida soon after stealing the
presidency. Unfortunately, nature can be destroyed and your own body is probably
an example you should look at. Destruction of species is another. Destruction of
the web of life is another.

There are also concerns that we have already polluted outer space with nuclear
contamination.

And, again, we have disrupted weather systems that have existed for eons -
causing further dangers to our states/communities.

As the Pentagon memo to George Bush made clear, Global Warming is a greather threat
to us than "terrarists." We will have increased hurricaine activity, increased
cyclones, tornadoes -- and earthquakes. Naturally, they will not only increase in
number but in severity.


Yes, patriarchy has been at war with nature for tens of thousands of years, but it only recently obtained the scientific know-how to measure such things as methane levels in the atmosphere and the ozone layer's role in cooling the planet. Until recently, there was no reason for human elites to suspect that we might upset the balance of the planet to the point that we might endanger our own existence.

You're saying that if only patriarchy had been able to "measure" the damage they were doing they
would have stopped? Scientists have been telling them for more than 100 years -- since the
beginning of the Industrial Revolution -- the damage they were doing to nature.

Did patriarchs fail to see the damage they were doing to women ... ?
Did they think their violence was helpful to women?
Maybe that the Women's Holocaust/Witchburning was somehow a positive for women?

Maybe they didn't understand that genocide of Native Americans or
Slavery weren't fun for those involved?

For hundreds of years they soaked European soil with blood --
The Crusades were a moral setback for humanity - and set new precedents for violence.

How much in denial are you?
:eyes:

So, while they were planning their own future of controlling the peoples and the resources of the Earth they certainly did not plan to bring upon themselves and their minions the destruction that global warming of seven to ten degrees would bring on. That is what I'm saying is accidental.

Granted patriarchy is in the end suicidally stupid/arrogant -- however what degree of stupidity would it take to not understand the harm that violence does.
Patriarchy has repeated its violence from one end of the globe to the other.
You might also recall that killing girls has now resulted in huge surplusses of males with no options for marriage.
But, you're saying, these poor guys just never noticed the harm they've been doing?
Species disappeared . . . but they didn't notice?

Exxon's massive spending to deny the effects or existence of global warming were planned but not as part of some greater scheme to destroy the planet and its occupants--Exxon included. Their planning was geared toward maximizing profits, not a future world with no humans or animals. It's the law of unintended consequences writ large. They neither foresaw nor cared whether they were damaging the planet beyond repair. All they cared about or planned for was more power and more money. That's because corporations have no conscience. They only have a mandate to maximize profits and that is what these guys are trying to do EVEN NOW knowing full well the consequences of their insanity.

And, of course, I'm sure that you personally can vouch for patriarchy and its violent history --
and ExxonMobil! Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime. Not business. And the
Exxon Valez, for one was crime. The tobacco industry -- which well knew that cigarettes were
addictive and caused cancers -- was criminal. Today's health insurance industry based on denying
care to the sick is criminal.

And, let me repeat here your own words which very well signal that you don't believe what you
are saying in alibing for patriarchy.

that is what these guys are trying to do

EVEN NOW knowing full well the consequences of their insanity.

It's not just capitalism that's doing this. It's consumerism. I don't consider the Chinese economy capitalistic, yet it is consumeristic/industrial, and it is destroying the Chinese people's environment as surely as we are destroying ours. The same thing applies to India now. It's all about economic dominance, which is all about industrial and commercial dominance, and which has produced a byproduct called global warming that is the UNPLANNED result of all of this power-mongering by the elites.

Of course, I have not failed to blame capitalism --
It's a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the wealth and resources of
a nation from the many to the few. And it has greatly succeeded in that all over the world.
Capitalism is patriarchy/patriarchal organized religion's tool -- having succeeded Feudalism
when the Vatican found that system insufficient to run its Papal States.
It's only been with us a few hundred years in its present form.

During the 1960's we saw patriarchy lash out once again with its violence -- its political
violence to kill civil rights leaders and presidential candidates -- and a president who was
turning out to be another FDR. Leaders of the women's movement were also threatened.
And, they have insured since then that no leadership can arise.
Frequently any calling out of their war-mongering and lies leads to death for their enemies.

Not only was the reality of Global Warming buried at that time, but realistic concerns about
increasing populations all over the world were denied and buried. We are now approaching
7 BILLION people on the planet. In fact, the Pope appeared before the Italian Parliament
a few years back telling them that they had to make Italian women have more children.
And, what was the reason? So that there would be labor for capitalism to expand.

All of this -- patriarchy/organized patriarchal religion/capitalism is based on exploitation.
"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are the licenses to exploit nature,
natural resources, animal life -- and even other human beings according to various myths of
inferiority.

Patriarchy is stupid -- deadly so -- but not so stupid as to not understand the evil they
have done.

Oh well. Sometimes that's how it goes.

I appreciate your efforts to explain your position.

So, the only people this is important to are the time keepers who have to calculate when to insert (or subtract) a leap second.

Nothing we can do will harm the planet itself. The greatest ecological disaster was when the oxygen waste emitted by the methane breathers killed them off. Whether we survive is the question but the planet will survive long after we are gone.

if the public truly understood what is going on and the point we are at, they woould lose

control. Control is everything to them, especially now!

1. Buy an electric car and stop using your gas guzzler - they're available now
2. Don't use air conditioning - ever
3. Don't use a tv - ever (unless you go LCD and don't use anything above 37")
4. Don't use a computer - ever; they spit out CO2 too - I had no idea they could breathe
5. Live as close to work as possible.

It takes more than politicians, even if President Obama could wave a magical wand... so get off your heiney and do something tangible.

I've done my part over the years. And more.

Have you?

And by computer do you include Blackberry and related gadgets?

I knew beyond a doubt that Obama was gonna do the bidding of big business & the worst polluters BEFORE he did a damn thing about our beloved planet.

I bet Gore regrets it BIG TIME that he didn't run for Prez because of the stupid excuse of having an "historic presidential race". What utter bullshit that was. :puke:

Edited to add:

What pisses me off too is that Obama could have easily pushed through a plan that every homeowner be given solar power systems for their homes. Oh sure, there's a tax break for solar power now, but it's not enough because who the hell has 20K sitting around to get it done? I know I don't. And don't even get me started on getting a hybrid car! I want one in the worst way, but I simply can't afford one.

The bottom line here is who among us can afford to take on 40K+ in debt right now for solar power systems AND a hybrid car? I know I can't and it hurts to admit that I can't do all that I can to help. :cry:

There's a lot that could be done -- RFK, Jr. in EPA -- yes!!

We also right now have the opportunity to take over the car companies which have obviously
been in an alliance with the oil companies NOT to build electric cars --
might mention that NY Times as well has been involved with ExxonMobil in allowing their
op-ed page to be used to lie to the public about Global Warming . . .

The auto workers could begin immediately building electric cars -- we could subsidize both
the manufacture and the purchase.

ExxonMobil was called out a year or two ago by Royal Academy of Science for their lying -
distortion of info -- billion dollar campaigns to keep public confused about GW.
Currently, ExxonMobil is starting a new propaganda campaign - same message.

There was a time when we didn't need air conditioning --
Notice how uncomfortable it is to stand next to a car with its a/c on --
I tried last year to drive without a/c but I was choking on everyone else's fumes and
car heat.

The earth no longer cools at night -- look at the overnight temperatures -- not only
dangerous for us but for all animal/plant life.

Forget personal guilt over this -- look at Patriarchy/Manifest Destiny-Man's Dominion Over
Nature/Capitalism -- for the culprits, i.e., elites.

We're in the same gene pool which stole this continent from the native American and did
every kind of violence to them -- the same gene pool which enslaved the African in America.
The same gene pool as the religious whacko Crusaders.

Government and elected officials were bought out to lie to us - to delay any action that
might inconvenience capitalists.

Don't blame yourself . . .

There is less genetic diversity in the total human population of the planet than there is in one troop of chimpanzees in Africa.

If they can't have it all -- no one can have anything -

Thanks to ExxonMobil -- which by the way is gearing up again for another round

of expensive propaganda to convince America there is no such thing as Global Warming --

silence has been bought -- and whatever noise may have been made about Global Warming

was hushed by people like Limbaugh.

More than 15 years ago there was an article in the NY Times where OPEC leadership was

saying that they needed to be subsidized when the time came that they had to curtail or

stop production.

That was a deep acknowledgment -- they understood it was way past time to stop burning oil--!!!

Yes, we should always plant trees and try -- but we're going to be hearing some pretty

nonsensical and costly ideas. Because til the very end, those who can steal will.

at the expense of life on earth.

How do we adapt our food supply?

7 billion mouths to feed now, more billions later. The great water cycle on many continents are already failing (Indian subcontinent, Australia, probably western North America).

9 degrees C in 100 years is the end of the majority of humans... probably 90 to 95 percent reduction.

:crickets:

Stop Breathing!

Breathing only involves CO2. Farting releases methane big-time.

Demand everyone sign up to be an organ donor

Insist we find a cure for every disease out there

and would rather lobby for everything they can think of to extend our lives, rather than try to learn to cope with the emotional turmoil of death.

:think::think::think::think::think::think::think::think::think::think::think:

Sheesh, the US has only 300 million people. Don't blame us; except for the assholes who make 18 children...


:eyes:

it will be the first catastrophe and in that sense . . . the last for us.

Weather modification in the form of "chemtrails" is playing out and has been

going on internationally for a decade or more.

Here in NJ they've acknowledged -- 5 years ago/? -- that we are already 25 degrees

above normal . . . and I'd say in those five years we've moved to 30 degrees above.

was around 65 or 70? I spent several summers in Vermont over 40 years ago and we had plenty of 85 and 90 degree days. I'm having a hard time going along with the 25 degree claim.

Could you produce some sources to back this up, please.

In April and May here we've had temperatures into the 80's . . .

Additionally, any presumption that the dropping of atomic bombs didn't harm our

our environment, IMO, would also be wrong.

Post-1945 there were big changes.

Refer to the Weather Channel --

that fact for NJ . . .

Not much of anything like that is being done --

I think the extremes of Bushco and its denials has helped in some ways . . .

and of course GW is undeniable -- we don't wear shorts here at Xmas time, usually.

Meanwhile, if you want to do research, you'll have to hit the library --

Try "The Heat is On" by Ross Gelbspan

"Song For A Blue Ocean" by Carl Safina

"The Dying of the Trees" by Chas. Little

These are all books available in good libraries.

There will, of course, also be much on the internet -- including info on these books.

Good luck . . . to us all!

See reply #84 for the tracing back to the original press release, where the units are clear.

That's still a big problem, of course. Note that with action, the equivalent median projection comes in at under 2.5 degrees C. Still big changes, but more survivable.

No more. Now I'm just sorry for everyone else's.

advanced environmental course partially taught by NASA people. I realized back then we were in trouble. I feel sorry for the animals deeply. Humans are stupid.

at a lab in Antarctica studying climate change. As I overheard conversations between he and his colleagues during dinner parties and whatnot, I decided that having children would be the most selfish thing I could ever do. Hell, I nearly cry when my cats are terrified at the vet; how could I endure the knowledge of what was to come if I had children, knowing that any child born today may never see 40, or even 30? I couldn't bear it. :cry:

If only I could find the words to say how I feel. I can say how I've felt. And say how many people I've seen who make me ill with disgust. But it's so rare to meet someone who is responsible in a way that deserves high praise. Someone who cares enough to sacrifice. That is more than just a little rare. Honestly, I spend my days in such disgust I can hardly figure out what to do. What used to be a quaint little town on the coast, is now a stream of constant cars. But that's all so negative. But it's hard to be positive when I've only met less than a handful of people who I can feel good about. Everyone has their good points. But this is something we all share in common. We're all taking from this emerald in space. And it's as though everyone takes it for granted.

I used to be a roofing contractor. It's funny because I think of them as rough and crude. But I was a sensitive roofer. Haha. One day I was looking at leaks in a house. And this older man and woman started talking to me about how they had decided to not have children. I was so surprised, and so pleased. How many people decide not to have children? Almost none. I'll tell you, my dad didn't want kids, so after he had three he decided to have a vasectomy. Back in 1960, if you wanted a vasectomy you had to find a clergyman to write a letter. Or so I heard. But that is the stigma of not having children.

I have been watching the environmental impact of humans since about 1970. I was just at driving age, and was horrified with what I saw. Since that day I have not been the same person. It sucks. It really sucks. It somewhat disabled me. I can't travel. I no longer drive more than I absolutely have to. However, even though I come across as doom and gloom, I have a sense that we have peaked, or will peak shortly. Oil is running out, and people are slowly having fewer children. It destroyed my life, and it probably will put a dent in this planet. But ultimately, humans will lose this battle. I mean, things happen slowly, usually. Our projections of climate change may never come to fruition because people are actually changing. But there is something that almost no one talks about because it's really not important. And that is what affect this has on the psyche. All of the houses where there were open spaces. The noise where there was silence. I'm completely outraged by it. When I see a stream of headlights on the highway, I feel sickened. Roadkill. All just rotten stuff. But then living in a cave had it's disadvantages too. So it's all so complex. In a way it's also a compromise. Ultimately, I still say that 1890 was the best time for living. Not civil rights. Just living. Electricity, yet open spaces.

I could go on and on, and bore everyone. All I really wanted to say was how much I respect you. It is very rare that I can say that. Thanks.

:hug:

Thank you. You're one of the only people who has ever said that to me. Generally the childless are viewed as selfish in our society, but others don't seem to understand that giving up the chance to love a child throughout your life isn't an easy one. It is no longer a world in which children can thrive, no longer a world where there's a somewhat peaceful future beyond the next few decades, at best.Two of my best friends-a couple- also feel just as I do. He is a bestselling children's book author who is absolutely wonderful with children and would make an ideal father, but his wife is from India. When they go for visits in her homeland he has to wear a mask to breathe the air, and the overcrowding completely freaks him out. He knows what the future holds, and so does she, so they are childless by choice but not childless because they don't adore children.Even my own parents see the truth of it. My father says "thank God you never had a child" every time we talk about current events or the environment. He knows that the fear and powerlessness I would feel if I did have one would be overwhelming. And it almost is for several of my friends who have college aged kids. One tells me that he loves them more than life itself, but sometimes hates himself for bringing them onto a dying planet.

My least favorite sound on earth is that of chainsaws. The urban sprawl and complete lack of respect for the environment is rampant in Florida. One beautiful apartment complex I lived in was build thoughtfully among an old Live oak grove. Sections of the buildings were cut out to allow branches to pass through them. A new owner bought the place and decided he wanted a "tropical look". So down came the oaks and pines and up went the palm trees and tennis courts. I watched as one of our tame squirrels worked frantically to move her babies from an area that was being bulldozed. It broke my heart and is seared into my memory. I moved to another area surrounded by oaks, but a tree dropped a limb on the roof of an apartment building behind my home, so the owner cut down all nine live oaks on the property in revenge-he even cut off tree limbs of my trees that crossed the property line. You can't escape the thoughtless, the stupid, the fearful and the lazy. They see nature as an obstacle in their way, something either to be subdued or profited from. They do not accept the fact that we all depend on it for our survival. Soon we will all pay the price for humanity's greed and short sightedness. The thing that's hardest to bear is the knowledge that all other life-innocent life that has continuously lived in harmony with nature- will pay the price as well.

Funny that you should mention the 1890s. Though I would not have wanted to live as a woman then, most of the items in my house-including the house itself- were made between 1890 and 1930. Maybe we were both born in the wrong era.

I've owned and lived in several old places. One was an absolutely huge barn, complete with a redwood floor. All made from trees on that very property in 1890. I got to talk with the older locals who had their stories. That's how I arrived at that date.

But what I find interesting is that there is so much contradiction and hypocrisy. Funny you'd mention chainsaws. I finally gave up and decided to build a house. I'm building a modern and completely recyclable house. It's made of steel. And I have been cutting trees. So here I am doing the very thing I have been cursing. And even my truck. It's HUGE. I used to curse people who drove them. Then I literally had to have it to use. My old truck couldn't do the job. And anyone seeing me driving it would think I'm a big fat American. But nothing could be further from the truth. I ride a bike. I would ride it everywhere if it weren't for cars. And I only fill up my gas tank every half a year.

It's hard to watch. I know. But somehow it does help relieve some of that anxiety when one knows that there are others out there who feel the same way.

I have enough experience with this entire relationship that people have with the planet, and the individual views, whether it's global warming denial, no sense of population problems, that I think I see it in a very broad and mature light that most people don't see. I'll just say this one story. My last property was a very beautiful farm in Oregon. I lived there only long enough to fulfill the capital gains exemption tax status, and sold. Sadly I left that place, because the logging was draconian. I found it so utterly offensive I couldn't stay. So, I moved back to northern California. And a year later I ended up buying a timber ranch. I don't intend to log anything. But it's zoned as a timber ranch. This, unlike Oregon, is a very liberal community. It ends up that 1.5 acres of the property has large redwoods. And in order to make the sale, the previous owner retained timber rights on that 1.5 acres. Mind you, the previous owner is a fantastic guy. He also is one of the few who is older and has no children. And he's an artist. And just a super Democrat. However, he began logging that piece of land. I isn't something I would have done. But it's going to be a blueberry orchard for me. Here's where it gets ugly. The man who owns the house adjacent to the logging is furious. And me and the previous owner, and the state of California are all being sued. All of us are staunch Democrats, and highly environmentally concerned. Which may seem like a lie considering the logging. So here I went from being the hater, to being the hated. Even though I'm not logging, I own the property, and am being accused.

So it's a weird world. We're all independent of each other. Free will. Intelligent or stupid. I fear that if even the most similar have such serious differences, then there isn't much hope we'll all pull together in unison to heal this poor place. Not very uplifting. I apologize.

I really would love to tell the stories of the old people I've met who saw things before the hoards did their thing. But it's probably terribly boring to all but myself. I just miss the deep blue skies and the silence. And the birds. Although I'm making some very close friends with my crows here. :)

And I do have deep regrets for not having been a father, because I think I would have been a wise one. I feel my wife probably resents me in a way, don't blame her, but it's never been spoken.

"One tells me that he loves them more than life itself, but sometimes hates himself for bringing them onto a dying planet."

I feel very much this way sometimes (times like right now, when I read threads like this). My children are young, only 7. My DH and I went through several years of infertility and I wanted to be a mother so terribly. We were happy, just the two of us, and there were moments when we thought maybe that is how we should stay. But there was such an ache in me that I just couldn't deny.

If I had known then what I know now - if I had realized the terrible extent of the damage we have done - I'm not sure what my choice would have been. At the very least, I would have had an enormous inner battle between my deepest desire and my logic and reason. As it is, I was not as informed then, did not know just how dire the prognosis and therefore, went ahead and had our children.

Now I am left with that horrible dread of what is to come and the heartbreak of knowing that my children may be doomed to a terrifying future. It sickens and horrifies me.

So I deeply respect your choice to remain childless and only wish that I had been as aware and alert and selfless as you.

I believe the creator of all good things, like the wonderful person you are, for your compassion for this beautiful world and life is so very rare to see, and yet, I feel perhaps we always knew it'd come to this - with so many more people, and the health of citizens peaking at 70-80 years of life, and so therefore, there's more people alive to have children, we eventually would destroy what we've been given. I do not have children. I am attracted to the same sex, so I don't foresee me having a child, and I commend anyone who could have kids but realizes what a harsh life they'd be giving them in 3 or 4 decades if they did have them.

It's posts like yours and Lorien's that make me treasure DU.
:hug:

One more happy story. And I love your comment! Have something fabulous to wear! :)

I want to be able to see the darkness and still be light hearted. It really helps to hear what you have to say. Thanks so much. It IS a good place here.

I am (uncomfortably) numb.

.

To know that they would grow up in a world likely torn apart by wars for the last remaining fossil fuel sources left on earth, a planet permanently altered by the pumping of CO2 into the atmosphere. It would be a stressful world, full of dying and misery. The planet would be in collapse.

I do not want to be the father watching his son or daughter get buried in a flag-draped coffin because of somebody's oil profits.

held up any meaningful warming prevention progress aren't going to be able to escape this mess either.

Sad, but that's all there is I can find for a silver lining. x(

...to be affected. After they've sucked everything else around them dry and exploited every last drop, then finally they will have to face their fate too. But the rest of us won't be here to enjoy it.

Global warming will disproportionately affect the poor and developing countries.

Money can buy just about anything.

Move further north and buy land in the new temperate zones far from shorelines, and major bodies of water.

With a 10 degree temperature boost major portions of Canada could be the new grain belt.

Money can buy desalination plants, power production, food production facilities (on the surface first, indoors once it gets too bad).

With money mankind will survive. Those too poor to build such elaborate facilities will perish.

sooner or later even their bubbles will fail.

Didn't we see it when Bush bought a chunk of land in Paraguay? While anti-Gore gasbags are busy bringing the debate and mass planning to a screeching halt, their masters are making their own preparations free of public notice.

For whatever emotional traumas that made me decide to remain childless, I'm thankful I didn't bring anyone into this world to have to compete for dwindling resources, against those cocksuckers.

In the near future, they will be imagining living in luxury not just surrounded by security but also by expensive habitat climate-control systems.

Hell, most of us will be okay. It's the Third World and those on the edge of starvation already who will be hit hardest.

:sarcasm:

Welcome to the granddaddy of all Shock Doctrines.

But this is a BS post because it is not yet too late but it is starting to look very bleak and grim. The situation can be reversed but it is going to take all of us to make it happen. Our leaders don't have the balls to do what needs to be done.

So please spare me the negative bs because that is what it is. If you guys want to give up then let's all go find a high cliff somewhere and just put ourselves out of our misery by jumping. Enough of this negative nonsense.

I am so damn tired of hearing all the bs glum and doom crap. It is only too late if you give up and don't try to do anything about the problem. I admit that Obama could do more because there are ways to completely eliminate pollution right now.

How do I know?

Simple... I figured out ways to do it and at the same time I have also figured out ways to make solar, wind, hydro electric and geothermal power 3 times more efficient then it is currently. Hell, I even solved the clean coal problem and I did all this by simply taking the time to study each problem and come up with a logical solution. Also, there is many ways to get rid of our nuclear waste problem. One such solution is to use it as fuel for the creation of Nuclear Fusion...

What? Don't believe me? It is doable and I intend to do my best and send the ideas I came up with to Washington. I am sure the president will be happy to know his clean coal issue has been solved and it doesn't have to cost a fortune to do it. All the money that is being wasted on building all these huge wind turbines could be put into building wind power stations that use wind tunnel effects to maximize wind power generation. Also, if the deforestation problem was bought under control then the global temperatures would stabilize. Of course the only to reverse the damage that our pollution has caused is to eliminate all the pollution our cars currently pump out into the environment. Yet again another simple solution. Yes, I have figured out how to make our gas guzzling cars pollution free. Hell, I even figured out a way to make our hybrids and electric cars go a 100+ miles on a few gallons of gas or electric charge and all this with zero pollution.

Also, did you guys know that there is solar panels that can work 24 hours a day. The panels use artificial lighting aka our electic lights to generate electricity. There are also many ways to eliminate our current famine and disease problems. Yes, there is ways to get rid of cancer, aids and many other viruses. The food shortage issues can be dealt with very easy also. It will just take less whining and more effort on our part to make these problems go away.

Image a world with no more pollution, no more famine. A world where hope and optimism are more important then our current world of despair and gloom. It is doable but we have to have the courage to stand up and do it. Complaining about the problem won't make it go away. We have to make it go away. Because as we all know most of our politicians are useless. The only way we can get them to do what needs to be done when it comes to saving our species and the world from environmental devastation is to give the little bastards a collective kick up their asses to do what needs to be done.

So enough with all this pointless doom and gloom talk. It is only the end of the world when we give up. And I for one haven't given up nor will I give up!

If you are accusing the science correspondent of the Guardian of misrepresentation, go ahead. If you are skeptical of the growing scientific evidence, good. I am not celebrating.

That is exactly what I am doing because it is true. And despite all the damn scientific evidence it is not too late. Only fools belive it is too late and I am sorry if it offends anyone here but it is the truth. This planet is our only home and if we don't do something to fix the problems we made by our own carelessness then we are damn fools.

Truth hurts doesn't it?!

We are the caretakers of this planet and it is our responsibility to take care of it by keeping it clean. It is stupid of us the most advanced, intelligent species on the face of this planet to wipe ourselves out. If we are this stupid then the question must be asked: Why the hell do we exist? Every other animal and living creature on this planet lives in harmony with nature and yet we seem to be the exception. Why? I'll tell you why because we have yet to grow up and realize what our true role is in the grand scheme of all things. There is much potential in our race but if we wipe ourselves out because of our own foolishness then it will be ashame.

If we are to have a future on this planet then we have to look forward with hope and optimism, not fear and despair. Yes, I admit I sound like a Star Trek fan which I am but there is nothing wrong with striving for a future of hope. There is so much for us to do and see and learn. True, we are not perfect and never will be perfect but that doesn't mean we can't strive to better ourselves. We can find solutions to our problems but the only way to do so is to try. Giving up is not the answer no matter what anyone may think or say. Quitters give up and I don't think anyone on this forum is a quitter.

Let the science correspondent of the Guardian say what he or she wants. The truth is that some scientists are part of the damn problem. Many of them who have had this info for years kept denying it until proof began to show up in the forms of worst weather and higher temperatures. While other scientists have tried to get the truth out but were always told to shut up and sit down.

Now, the problem has gotten too big to ignore and finally scientist who were doubters are starting to become believers. About damn time. Gee, what took you guys so long. I could have told you we were in trouble back in the 1990s.

Only by motivating ourselves to do what needs to be done for the sake ourselves and future generations will things change for the better. And you better believe me when I say that we have to do something more then just talk about solving the environmental problem. We have to act. Words are cheap if there is no action to back them up.

So, what will it be? Want to survive then lets take action and do what needs to be done. A call to action is what is needed...

The improbable is not the impossible.

I think the Global Warming thing was dragged too far into politics as a leverage point of Us vs Them. A lot of truth came out, but so did a lot of posturing BS. Now it is in a lot of peoples' interest to say "well it is too late now". How convenient.

I saw you mentioning car pollutants prominently. Last I remember seeing data, cars were down the list a bit. Power generation, buldings, and homes were larger contributers. You sorta wonder what the carbon footprint of the internet is even.... think about it... all the computers, most running 24x7.

Anyway,,, back to your point. I remember in High School that all the sceintists were leaning toward the premise that a new Ice Age was coming. Well I'm still waiting. Now they have flipped around the opposite direction and claim global warming. There are lots of variables at work, and no one has a complete and clear crystal ball. It is certainly not a bad idea to work toward proving them wrong, rather than rolling over and deciding you need SPF 500 or to move to the Arctic.

was the graph Al Gore showed in Inconvenient Truth where he said that carbon levels and temperature levels had a relationship such that when carbon levels went up, temperatures went up but with a lag time - I believe it was about 20 years. Over time, carbon levels have went up and down but always within the same range. Even at the Ice Ages and other extreme times, they have stayed within the range. Right now, carbon levels are so far outside the top range, it's absolutely terrifying and they are climbing rapidly.

But when I was in high school, the debate was whether it would be an ice age or global warming. And one hypothesis was that the greenhouse effect would lead initially to global warming *but* that eventually enough pollution would switch warming to an ice age as sunlight was increasinly unable to penetrate the atmosphere.

What it ended up with is referred to as "global climate change." The average temperature will rise some number of degrees, but it will impact different regions somewhat differently. Storms will be come more frequent and intense. Droughts will become longer. Deserts will grow. The poles are being impacted the most heavily and quickly at this point.

Another impact is that "weeds" (including poison ivy) tend to grow better in high CO2 levels than "cultivars." So the rising CO2 level will by itself add to the stress on food crops, never mind the changing rain and temperature patterns.

What I've noticed in realtime here in New England is that in the past few years the rain patterns have changed. This spring is a prime example -- we go 2+ weeks with no rain at all, and then have a 3+" deluge in <24 hours. My pasture is suffering: high, dry areas are barely growing grass. The low areas are under water so long that they're just now starting to grow grass. Only some areas are getting enough rain to grow well.

It's been repeated over and over for years as a great excuse to ignore scientists! But there wasn't as much talk of an impending ice-age as people are told there was. I've looked through old science articles and the ice age is not what any real scientists were warning of, not that I've found.

I do however have AP articles from the 70's warning of precisely what's happening now. 30 years ago scientists said very clearly what is taking place. And at that time they weren't even figuring in all the complications speeding things up and threatening the Humans' health! Too bad they were ignored for so long.. I'm just glad I never had a baby.

ice age when she was young & it had worried her for many years thereafter, so you're not the only one who remembers that.

if the ptb thought global warming was going to destroy civilization as we know it, they wouldn't be pushing so hard for carbon trading to inflate the next financial bubble.

See "The Global Cooling Mole" from RealClimate - link to the page here to get complete details on the scientific publication history of the putative "ice age".

Oh, and this was more than a year ago. Try dusting off your disinformation from time to time. You'll be much more convincing when the next billy goat crosses your bridge . . .

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/03/the-global-cooling-mole/

To veterans of the Climate Wars, the old 1970s global cooling canard - "How can we believe climate scientists about global warming today when back in the 1970s they told us an ice age was imminent?" - must seem like a never-ending game of Whack-a-mole. One of us (WMC) has devoted years to whacking down the mole (see here, here and here, for example), while the other of us (JF) sees the mole pop up anew in his in box every time he quotes contemporary scientific views regarding climate change in his newspaper stories.


The problem is that the argument has played out in competing anecdotes, without any comprehensive and rigorous picture of what was really going on in the scientific literature at the time. But if the argument is to have any relevance beyond talking points aimed at winning a debate, such a comprehensive understanding is needed. If, indeed, climate scientists predicted a coming ice age, it is worthwhile to take the next step and understand why they thought this, and what relevance it might have to today's science-politics-policy discussions about climate change. If, on the other hand, scientists were not really predicting a coming ice age, then the argument needs to be retired.

The two of us, along with Tom Peterson of the National Climatic Data Center, undertook a literature review to try to move beyond the anecdotes and understand what scientists were really saying at the time regarding the various forces shaping climate on time human time scales. The results are currently in press at the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, and Doyle Rice has written a nice summary in USA Today, and an extended version based on a presentation made by Tom at the AMS meeting in January is on line.

During the period we analyzed, climate science was very different from what you see today. There was far less integration among the various sub-disciplines that make up the enterprise. Remote sensing, integrated global data collection and modeling were all in their infancy. But our analysis nevertheless showed clear trends in the focus and conclusions the researchers were making. Between 1965 and 1979 we found (see table 1 for details):

* 7 articles predicting cooling
* 44 predicting warming
* 20 that were neutral

In other words, during the 1970s, when some would have you believe scientists were predicting a coming ice age, they were doing no such thing. The dominant view, even then, was that increasing levels of greenhouse gases were likely to dominate any changes we might see in climate on human time scales.

We do not expect that this work will stop the mole from popping its head back up in the future. But we do hope that when it does, this analysis will provide a foundation for a more thoughtful discussion about what climate scientists were and were not saying back in the 1970s.

And the matter of who has superior intelligence is still up for grabs, as one of the criteria for intelligence is how well a given species adapts to the environment. We are fifty million years younger and it don't look to good. Must be the opposing thumbs and the stress of gravity...

Agree with your optimism and a call for responsible stewardship !!!

I love your optimism. I'll also take a bit of that. I used to be optimistic. There is very little to be optimistic about. Judging from the behavior of human beings, I see no reason to expect changes that will be significant nor in time to solve the serious nature of what is currently happening.

Global warming is only one of the plagues that we are faced with. There are others that are equally as serious, if not worse. And every single one is only a symptom of something that isn't going to change. Period. No one is going to talk about it. Most of the people on the planet either deny it, or wouldn't think of altering their behavior. And no one is going to place limits upon people. Well, China did. Sort of.

I don't mean to be facetious. I think we can have a ball as the ship sinks. Why not?

I know what you mean when you state that global warming is only one of the major problems we face. I understand that perfectly well and you are right. However, I also know that global warming is at the heart of many of the other problems.

Increased global temperatures are destablizing the climate systems of every single region of this planet. This is part of the reason why we are having increased viral outbreaks and droughts not to mention the more violent storms. Our pollution and the fact we are cutting down so many vital trees are also part of the problem. These trees are needed to recycle and clean our air and soul. Without them we are pretty much screwed. Also, due to the increased temperatures we have viruses that are killing off important species like bees which we need to keep alive for the sake of all of our crops. Not to mention all the other plants that need these animals to help them as well.

Then there is the fact that we are disrupting the natural balance of nature with our pointless killing of predators just because they kill prey species we also need. These predators are important to maintain the health of the prey species. They kill the sick and weak animals and this helps insure that the strongest survive to bred. That is why I get annoyed and irritated by selfish assholes like Sarah Palin and various others who don't consider or think what they are doing is contributing to the problems we all now face.

I don't think we need to put limits on people. What I think we need to do is learn to stop trying to dominate nature and work with it. We are a part of it and it may sound cheesy but it is the truth. It is true that we are the most powerful, intelligent species on this planet but that all comes with a price and a responsibility.

A know it is not in our nature to do the wisest thing but I do know that if there has ever been a time for us to overcome this flaw in our nature that time is now. We can do anything if we put our minds to it. It is up to all us what shape and form the future takes. We owe it to our children and the future of our species to at least try and do something about these problems we made.

No one else is going to clean up these problems. It is time we take responsibility for our actions even if we don't want to. I know it will be hard but then again doing good things is never easy but in the long run it will be worth it. And that is what we need to start thinking about... the long run. Whether the future will be written by us or for us is up to us. We have to start somewhere and I say now is that time.

You've got a good sense of what is going on. It's obvious we've both been thinking about this in depth. I hadn't thought about the temperature affecting populations of species in the way you mentioned. I see it.

Now there is one thing I recently discovered. The Bosch-Haber cycle. Around 1930 we grew in population to a point where we couldn't naturally farm enough food to feed us all. The cycle takes ammonia and processes it to make nitrogen compounds that are used to fertilize the ground in order to feed more people than the earth can naturally sustain. And not only does it take 1% of our total energy use, but it has massive effects after running off into our oceans. Some say it's a bigger problem than global warming. So I disagree that we can continue living in these numbers. I believe that we surpassed the natural carrying capacity of the planet almost a century ago.

I have been saying that the one flaw of the human being is that we didn't know when to stop. It's about limits. Which reminds me of a comedy routine. So I better quite and go to bed. Haha. :)

to understand how this planet's biosphere works and, to some degree, to consciously control it, it also becomes absolutely necessary that Man does assume the full responsibility of planetary environmental control.

It has become necessary because the process of Man's cultural evolution has caused him to have a huge destabilising effect on environmental systems. Precisely for this reason, while part of 'planetary environmental control' must involve influencing environmental systems for the sake of stability, a much larger part will have to involve deep changes to Man's cultural, political, economic and all the other shall we call them 'organisational' aspects of our existence here.

Self-organisation, yes, in the way I think you also mean, reading the above. Perhaps that is or could be our 'place in the universe'.

A reduction in size of the human population, for example, could be achieved through birth control and 'natural' death rates, given the political and social organisation. Or else war, famine and disease can be organised (and profits accrued); that's probably easier.

And there's the rub. Do not forget what kind of people are actually in power and organising our contemporary economic and political, albeit apparently 'globalized' world.

:popcorn:


Funny. China placed limits on people. Didn't place limits on pollution - they outranked us in pollution generation rather some time ago...

The panels use artificial lighting aka our electic lights to generate electricity

Words cannot describe how epic that statement is. Truly the stuff of legends.

:rofl:

Power the lights and use the light to power the lights! Pure genius.

You are 100% correct, and it does take all of us doing our part.

Welcome to DU. :party:

:yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:

with the "solar panels that run off artificial lights" stuff.

So, are we meant to take any of your posts in this thread seriously?

dead serious, muriel_volestrangler. If I wasn't I wouldn't have took my time typing all that to post. And yes, what I described and actually figured out a way to make it work is a 'perpetual motion machine' or as I like to call it a Solar Energy Recycler aka S.E.R. The way to make it work is to simply balance out the amount of energy you are putting into the device that is generating the electric output. Of course the more you put in the more you get out. The equations of making all work out are greatly boosted by having an extra way to generate the power.

I wish I had the proper materials to prove my theory/idea will in fact work. The ideas just came to me one day as I was thinking about all these problems. And before you say it is impossible or some other such thing let me say that is the way it happened.

The reason no one has been able to make a perpetual motion machine work is simple. When the idea was first envision it there was no way to regenerate an electric current once it was used by a device. My idea allows for a way to get around this little problem.

Also, this idea is only one of many breakthroughs I have come up with. The other ideas have to deal with creating artificial gravity on our space vehicles and enhance the current output of power that our space vehicle can generate. In other words, I have figured out a rough idea of how to increase the speed our space vehicles can go in order to get us to Mars faster then the current 3 year estimate.

And, I have also figured out many other ways to deal with pollution in atmosphere. The only problem is the technology doesn't exist yet so what I know can be done can't yet be done. What is this technology? It is what I calling Atmospheric Filtration Air System or A.F.A.S. for short. I would explain how it works but I think my current post is starting to get too long. Maybe I should write a book on some of my ideas.

I am dying to hear the details. Perpetual motion? You are awesome. Seriously. Tell us more.

intend to explain in greater detail all my ideas that I have come up with to deal with our current pollution problems. I just have to get all my notes together and put them in order before I do that post since it will be a very long one.

However, I think I have enough info to explain one such idea known as the 'PASSIVE HYDROELECTRIC DAM POWER GENERATOR' aka P.H.D.P.G.

This particular system or dam is different from the intrusive hydroelectric dams we currently use to generate power. How? Well, it doesn't:

A. Block the natural flow of the river it is built on.
B. Interfere with the natural migration of wild fish or various other aquatic species during their migration/mating season.

What it does do is make use of the natural flow of the river by being built at locations where the water flows the fastest. In other words these dams are built near natural waterfalls where the rivers flow the fastest. They are only built if the river flows between two mountains or rocky locations. I say this becasue the new passive dams would need these strong stable natural structures to use as anchors for the dam. The dam would be open and be built in two sections. Section One would be built on the far right side of the falls while section two on the far left side. How this dam works is that it would make use of series of special designed fans would be laid out along both sides of the shoreline in a pattern that would allow the water around them. This would in turn turn the fans and generate electicity without blocking the natural flow the river. To keep fish or other aquatic species from getting caught inside the fans a special grill would be built to keep the fish from entering the turning fan. This grill would allow water to get through but stop the fish from entering. Of course, this 'passive dam' design could be modified for use along any river if they were designed to work with natural flow or design of the river itself. Some study of the rivers that would be usable canidates for these types of dams would have to be conducted first to minimize or prevent any damage to the natural environment. It is important that these dams work with the natural flow of the rivers themselves. Otherwise, the dam wouldn't be built. Dams like Hover Dam and others would become relics of the past as they do more environmental damage by trying to control the natural flow of the river.

and you still can't properly conjugate your verbs? Astonishing!

I made mistakes but then again I am not writing a book on this topic... At least, not yet any way. When it comes to me writing I do a better job 'conjugating' my verbs.

:thumbsdown:

Isn't the answer either so please spare me the cynical 'thumbs down' response. We are all part of the problem because we haven't done what needs to be done to deal with the problem itself. We just ignore it because we have fooled ourselves into believing the problem will just go away in time. Well, it won't. THAT IS THE HARSH TRUTH!

Just like plastic the problem will presist for many years unless we deal with it. So perhaps its time to make some suggestions that will help solve the problem, not allow it to persist. I am dead serious when I say that we must change the way we live and work. Our biggest mistake is that we try to control everything without realizing what we are doing. We are the caretakers of this planet. We should look at this planet as a wonderful gift because that is what it is... a gift. I don't know if you are a religious individual but if you are then think of it as a gift from our creator. Don't you think we should take care of such a sacred gift.

This message also goes out to everyone else who is religious or non-religious. This planet is our home... our 'only' home and if we don't take care of it then we have no one but ourselves to blame in the end. So, as you can see, omega minimo, no 'balls' is not the solution. And like I said, sir or madam, 'WE' are all part of the problem. So let's be honest with ourselves and start dealing with the problem.

Okay...

Yes -- we should still try -- no one here is denying that --
and yes, we should take over the auto plants and start building electric cars --
get trolleys into the suburbs to take people to train stations.

Use golf carts for local errands.

However, there is a 50 year delay in Global Warming -- we are only now feeling the effects
of our destruction back to 1959. Things are going to speed up even more in future.
Nor does anyone know how all of this will compound.

And this is great news re your discovereies . . .
If you know about it, why isn't Obama suggesting it-- ??
THIS is what we are talking about -- the buying of government and elected officials.

Also, did you guys know that there is solar panels that can work 24 hours a day. The panels use artificial lighting aka our electic lights to generate electricity. There are also many ways to eliminate our current famine and disease problems.

We are only increasing illness/disease on this planet --
Do you think that animal life around us is failing because we're a healthy planet still?
We are part of nature and also suffering.

Yes, there is ways to get rid of cancer, aids and many other viruses.

Thousands of cancer cells circulate in your body every day -- the problem is with our
immune systems. We have harmed nature, probably fatally --- and we have harmed ourselves.
We are part of nature.

The food shortage issues can be dealt with very easy also. It will just take less whining and more effort on our part to make these problems go away.

Plant life cannot be brought indoors in quantities to feed nations.
They have been using "Weather Modification" to try to deflect the effects of Global Warming
on plants -- those are the "chemtrails" you see and which have been used internationally for
10 years or more.

Image a world with no more pollution, no more famine. A world where hope and optimism are more important then our current world of despair and gloom. It is doable but we have to have the courage to stand up and do it. Complaining about the problem won't make it go away. We have to make it go away. Because as we all know most of our politicians are useless. The only way we can get them to do what needs to be done when it comes to saving our species and the world from environmental devastation is to give the little bastards a collective kick up their asses to do what needs to be done.

What corner are we all meeting on and when?
Go for it!

Again -- this is the simple acknowledgment you are hearing of the situation and reality --
something which has been denied Americans by elites who control our societies --
not to mention our government/elected officials and news and news sources.

We were in a much better position to reverse the situation back in the 70's. And we tried not to be too alarmist in our warnings about global warming. We heeded the call not to be too full of doom and gloom. So people figured a bit more recycling would do the trick. The oil boys came back in with Grandpa Reagan to rule the roost. No big deal. We've got time. It's morning in America.

Or 10 years after that, when people also told us they were "sick of hearing all that doom & gloom talk," we heeded the call by discussing the more moderate forecasts of what could happen if global warming proceeded unchecked. That didn't seem too bad to people. Not bad enough to increase mileage standards. Not bad enough to aggressively fund alternative energy sources.

Or 10 years after that, when they told us again to stop being so darn pessimistic. And Exxon Mobil spent millions on a PR campaign to sow doubt about global warming. To take the 0.001% of scientists who disagreed that it was happening and make them seem like 50%. They trotted out long ago debunked explanations of why global warming wasn't important. They added in some more "don't be so gloomy" talk for good measure.

And here we are, three decades later. The point about the "doom and gloom talk" is that the milder scenarios about how global warming could damage the environment have all been exceeded. The damage is accelerating at a faster pace than we had hoped.

We were trying to encourage people to have hope and get started on ameliorating global warming 30 years ago. They told us not to be so gloomy back then and we complied. We cited the milder possibilities of letting climate change go unchecked. So people relaxed and figured that a bit of recycling would be all that was needed. They voted down mileage standards time and again. No need to handicap our businesses. Hey, pal, don't be so doomy and gloomy.

Well alas, here we are with the global climate changing at an accelerated rate. The gloomy scenarios we tried to avoid talking about years ago so we would not sound too alarmist are now upon us.

John Kerry had an Apollo program to address climate change as part of his platform-- a positive approach to reducing our dependence on foreign oil, working with American ingenuity to devise sustainable energy systems and conservation technology, and it was all very positive. But he was derided as an elitist geek. And the oil boys had also taken over the voting process, giving no-bid contracts to their friends, and we let it happen. The oil boys subsidized the purchase of SUVs and drove us closer to the point of no return.

THIS IS WHERE 30 YEARS OF NOT BEING SO GLOOMY HAS GOTTEN US.

maybe true, Overseas, but it still doesn't change the fact that we HAVE TO DO SOMETHING! Giving up is not an option. Do you understand? If not then allow me to spell it out for you. I know the history of how we tend to 'drag our feet' and do nothing unless we have no other choice. It is bad habit of our species. A habit we must overcome before it really is too late.

The fact still remains that we have reached the point where we are facing our possible extinction. And yes what I am saying is indeed correct. Someone stated on this topic that our genetic diversity has greatly diminished due to the 'bottlenecking' event that took place centuries ago. This lack of genetic diversity puts all of us in great danger. We won't be able to adapt fast enough to the artificial changes we are making to our planet.

So prehaps we should be coming up with ways to save our asses instead of making all these 'cynical' we can't do it/its already too late comments. Nothing is more annoying then hearing people give up before even trying. I know what happened 30 years ago is very much regrettable and I agree with you that more action should have been taken then. Unfortunately, we didn't take the situation/threat seriously then and now we are paying the price of those irresponsible actions. Instead of crying about past mistakes lets do something about the problem/s we have now. All you need to tell yourself is that 'I' can help save the world. 'I' can help solve the energy crisis. The choice is yours.

I say all this because it makes me sad when I read all the comments on this topic. There is so much 'we give up' talk that it makes me just shake my head and say to myself, "Why can't these people open their eyes and really see what can be done?"

I have a saying: Why is it that the blind can see better then those us who can see? The answer is simple... the blind know that there is more then one way to see the world around them. Just because you may be able to see doesn't mean you really see what should or can be seen. There have been many blind people who made a difference in the world because they didn't let their handicap become a curse to them. They turned it into a blessing to motivate them to extraordinary things.

We CAN do the same! Good grief, people! We CAN save the world AND WE MUST! There is nothing we can't do if we truly strive to achieve it. And I will keep saying this until it finally sinks into everyone's head. You CAN be part of the solution if you wish to be. The problems we currently face are only impossible to solve if you believe them to be. The solution begins and ends with YOU!

So I am challenging everyone on this damn board to figure out ways to solve the climate problem. As well as the various other problems like famine, viral outbreaks, deforestation as well as many other issues we now face. If anyone is interested perhaps a petition or something similar to one can be put together with well thought out solutions to our current problems.

So if you want to change the world then change it!

LET US ALL CRUSADE FOR CHANGE...

The battle can only be won if we choose to stand and fight. It may seem impossible to win but the truth remains...

We have done the impossible before...

Why can't we accomplish it again? Hmm... I personally challenge everyone to stand up and make a difference. Let us create a future of hope and peace. It may not be easy but it sure is hell worth striving for...

So who is with me...?

are so totally focused on "owning the world" and "winning the most toys",
focused on more and bigger profits and bonuses
while the planet falls apart around them.

Sad and so pathetic.

Keep in mind that for a "greedy banker type" -- or for a corporation -- any expense harms the bottom line.

Have you ever been on a highway where the signs say the right lane is closing in the next few hundred yards? And yet there's always someone -- often in a sports car -- who continues to speed along in the doomed lane even though s/he knows it's going away? And then, when the lane finally does end, the sports car puts on its signal and hopes you'll let it in. You inevitably do -- because you are a good person -- and you hope the driver in the sports car appreciates the concession.

What you don't realize is that the driver - like the corporations and the "greedy banker types" -- instead of thinking "gee, that was nice," is actually thinking "sucker!"

"Greedy banker types" are banking (!!) on the fact that the world's do-gooders will jump in and save the planet -- assuming that is even possible. In the mean time, they'll continue making money right up until the end. They've got nothing to lose. If humans are doomed, they'll be leaving this Earth as rich as they can be. If the world can actually be saved, they'll let the do-gooders take care of it, so it won't cost the "greedy bankers" a cent.

Suckers!

I have never heard it put any better than that! Bravo!

I worry for my grandchildren, and their grand children. :(

Same thing goes for any pseudo-scientist who proclaims that global warming is a myth. The consequences of listening to them will result in BILLIONS OF DEATHS. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc could only have dreamed of killing so many people as these conservatives will with their inaction.

The physical world is being choked, the oceans are dying, a mass-extinction has started.. and still the most anti-environmental people on the Earth are American Republicans.

I saw a car the other day with 2 bumper stickers, one said "Impeach Obama" & the other said "Global Warming: MYTH" Right there clear as day for me.. their people will never snap out of it long as they live, their denial cannot be broken.. because in the back of their little hearts they probably have a clue about what it really means, they are killing the future, raping the entire planet, their "God's" little bluegreen Earth.

(sorry blah blah blah, this freaks me out)

on an article about some colleges that encourage selfish, cutthroat behavior.



:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

Someone on Bill Maher asked why right wing Christians don't take better care of the Earth. "Don't you want the place to look good when Jesus returns?"

I've always wondered at that "dominion" clause they quote & their choice of the word dominion over stewardship. To me, the word dominion doesn't instill any idea of responsibility, whereas stewardship goes hand in hand with responsibility. It speaks volumes about their view of the world & their place in it. "Take it, rape it, it's yours." That there are actually people who think that is an acceptable way to behave, boggles the mind.

AS IF I wasn't scared enough of people.. yesterday I watched Jesus Camp. There's a short part of the movie where a few Evangelists actually say that. At least 2, maybe 3 different people, I was starting to hyperventilate so I couldn't listen to it very well after they started getting their point across. The Earth was made by God especially for the humans to use up, they said. One of them said something like "we can cut down every tree and burn up all the oil"

I am freaked out scared for the rest of my life x(

It gives them the out they need to avoid acting responsibly.

I don't believe in God, but if I did, it wouldn't be some God who thought it was OK that we trashed our most blessed gift. These people are bat-shit crazy & fucking terrifying.

:hug:

:kick:

I cannot help but wonder what life on earth will be like, during my son's lifetime. I know it won't be pretty.

i have no fear, we will adapt, my kids will live their lives and have lots of kids who will live and die as we have done for generations. No point getting mind fucked over it, i have always found the best in mankind during times of adversity, no doubt the changes if they occur as stated will bring new challenges and who knows what.

Our fears will come home to roost. There will be severe drought, famine and starvation on a scale you can't imagine. In many parts of the world, societal structures will disintegrate and it will become survival of the fittest.

My fears are not abnormal fears. This will all come to pass, and it will do you no good to have your head buried in the sand.

Experts who spend years studying this have said that the population of the world coul decrease by approximately one third. Think about that for a second or two.

already, your fear is that you will have to see it effect you, to someone starving right now it makes no difference to them if they are one of a million or one of a billion, mankind has adapted from hunter gatherers to farmers to walking on the moon, we will adapt to whatever the planet throws at us or we will die, it is survival of the fittest and the most able to adapt, that is what nature is all about.

don't worry, I'll find a way to land before it hits me'. Fail.

id love to know what you are doing to save the planet as it is if you are so concerned, personally im not going to worry about it, i came from poverty and if my grandkids need to go back to the road to survive then thats whats in their blood, they will like all organisms adapt or perish as nature intended.

I keep the house at 68F in winter. Have replaced the washer and refrigerator. Compact fluorescents throughout. Can't afford a more efficient car. And you?

house was when i was in the army, got my first car what 8 years ago and 30 or so without, still have the same shoes i was issued at 16 and my combat boots as well, though i now get 17 miles to the gallon and have a 100 commute daily, so i guess im making up for it now, dont want a more efficient car, love my truck and need 4 wheel drive even on the best of days. But as i said im not trying to save the planet, the changes will come and we will adapt, though ill probuably be dead long before i see any significent changes to my property.

The emerging view of climate scientists would agree with you.

Wow, you must live in that part of Virginia without roads.

Either that or you're a conformist who has been conditioned to "love your truck."

You sound like one of the people who will be unable to adapt.

Tell me about the house you lived in when you were in the Army, before you were married.

The Army I was in, single soldiers lived in the barracks.

Pray tell what did you live in before you went in the Army, a tent?

(I consider a mobile home a perfectly good house).

in the army i lived in barracks, i use the term house to mean a structure, before that i was on the road with my family so i am pretty sure i will adapt back to living from the land etc.

as I understand it what it means is THOSE SPECIES WHICH COOPERATE BEST WITH NATURE.

Obviously, that let's us out!

Too many have interpreted this as the most violent win --

and under patriarchy and elism/capitalism that is true for a while --

but only for a while.

its gonna be easier for some than for others. we may be living in interesting times.

Right now, in terms of health care, survival of the fittest is for those who have the money to afford the insurance to receive health care. That is not survival of the fittest - that's survival due to having the new god, money.

One sleeping next to me now, the other with a friend's family for Mem Day weekend...

I'm hitting birthday five-oh next month.

What on earth will earth be like when they hit the same "meridian?"

:hide:

It was all just political BS right?

the earth's climate would return to pre-industrial CO2 levels in 600 years.

We as a species can't plan for 60 years down the road; how can we plan for 600? :shrug:

unless we all kill ourselves tomorrow, nothing is going to change and im sorry but if people feel bad enough to kill themselves then they can go ahead, just means things are better for my kids.

"shit happens" is about the only approach that won't leave you a nervous mess.

There are other things that we CAN do something about, such as wise water use, habitat preservation, combating desertification, and other positive things, but changing lightbulbs? Virtually useless as far as climate change goes.

in terms of multiple generations and have done so for thousands of years.

Why do you think the Chinese will inevitably "beat us at our own game"? They didn't just change their minds and declare us friends in the 70s, they simply decided to sell us some rope.

So I'll add in some spin too! :)

Read the stats; they're killing themselves with their own self-made pollution too.

I know one of their philosophers claimed "When seeking revenge, dig two graves" or something like that, I just don't recall - in US history - anything that got China riled up to attempt revenge. Of course, maybe it's because Nixon set foot in their country...?

In a global economy, regardless, China has proven to be less responsible than other countries. They'll undoubtedly improve with time. "Best interests" ultimately trump "childish revenge" anyway. And that, I think, is what we all agree on. (never mind there is no proof it's about "revenge" or anything else, apart from cheap profiteering on ALL sides because there is tangible proof regarding that...)

There is nothing wrong in what you said, but it doesn't apply to the reply that people can't think and plan in terms beyond a small fraction of a lifespan.

Here's a hint for you: 600 years ago Columbus was still 83 years away from sailing across the ocean.

There is your quote and there are many cultures, governments and individuals that plan, primarily, in terms exceeding 60 years. The effects of 60+ year plans are often felt for your arbitrary 600 year time-span, we're looking at one right now.

Americans are the one's that have trouble planning beyond the next quarter and a four year plan is rarely seen to completion. Jimmy Carter tried long-term planning and his plans didn't even survive the following election, if they had we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You have failed to do so.

Goodbye.

But you're still wrong in your statement.

I'll shed great floods of tears over your absence.
:cry:

This should be good.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=pollution+world+china+us+chart&fp=Li-R6mbKWrc

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=pollution+world+china+us&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=pollution+world+china+us&fp=Li-R6mbKWrc


The US is not the cause of all the world's problems. We'll do our responsibility, but we're not the entire problem, nor should we be accused OF being the whole problem.

Sorry to use "China" as part of the search. Put in any other country name, or nix all country names... the truth is in the middle.

that's kinda news after the 60 year denial!!!

i mean, what's the point of even trying.

it's too late...

Just ask Rush.

:hide:


Oh look! My response # is 69 too!!

:party:

Here's where my inner conspiracy theorist sees a room of wealthy and connected men discussing population reduction for "the survival of the entire human race" - whether by a targeted pathogen, or limited nuclear exchange.

Maybe I should just start drinking again.

First Class passengers first. I mean the methane isn't real is it? I hate this.

I've suspected for some time that the battle to prevent global warming was already lost. What we can do now is try and slow our decline. I.e. we can possibly manage our decline, adapt as we go and prevent it from getting even worse.

While we're doing that, take two-thirds of the military budget and give it to NASA so we can figure out ways to get off this rock.

While we should continue to plant trees and do whatever else we can think of --

including getting electric cars on the road as quickly as possible -- and ridding

the suburbs of cars by moving trolleys in -- especially to train stations . . .

using golf carts for local errands . . . etal ...

Global Warming has a 50 year delay -- which means that the effects we are feeling right

now only reflect the damage we have done up to 1959. Things will continue to speed up.

No one knows how all of this will compounds.

Actually, the GOP has been suppressing NASA going back to the Reagan years -- and Bush

also put a few more handcuffs on them while he was in office. They are no longer to

be concerned with the planet!!!

We should fold the MIC and take every penny of the budget and use it for domestic needs.

National health care, impoverished children, homeless!!

:(

Just like Peak Oil was conveniently trotted out to support a bubble of oil speculation.

It comes from the USA Today story on it:



Though to me, that looks like a 90% likelihood of a rise of 4 degrees centigrade or more (ie the deep red, red, ornage and yellow sections of the left hand circle), which is 7.2 degrees Fahrenheit. The chances of rising 5 degrees C, ie 9 degrees F, look between 55% and 60%.

Monbiot was talking in centigrade.

Pure negligence on my part.

in the '9 degrees' story. Reuters stripped the '(F)' that USA Today had used, because it went via an American site 'ecoworldly' that presumably though all its readers would always think in Fahrenheit. I only followed the multiple layers of links because I was getting alarmed at 9 degrees centigrade, and was thinking this might be a good time to panic!

9 F, ie 5 C, is still pretty awful, of course. I've also found the original press release for this, which puts it like this:



So this is definitely a "things are worse than we thought" moment.

Also, Here's the abstract of the paper (you have to subscribe to get the full paper).

The science is there. The changes have to be extremely radical for it to work at all. Puny half-measures will not do it. But of course cowardly politicians the world over will not take the steps necessary.

I do think there is a chance that things will improve as soon as we run out of oil. Of course lots of people will die when that happens but maybe that is best for the planet.

My son sent me this, and added:
"It was one of the saddest things I've ever seen, because I could see in his face that he had no expectation that we would even come close. Now the Wilkins ice shelf has dropped into the ocean, and we still are arguing about evolution versus creation!
My proudest achievement is that I didn't consign any children to the horrors that will ensue."


He and his brother ( they are now both in their early 40's)
decided not to have children, way back in the mid- 80's.
Independently of each other, as far as I can tell, they made that decision,
and got vasectomies at some point.

All of the crap being argued and discussed endlessly makes no sense to me, in light of
what even the deniers are now seeing. The human race is committing suicide.
There are many of us, but not enough, to see and feel the incredible sad tragedy of it all.

gave particulars . . .

the "press" was silent on it ---

I only right now have the very long version of the "Scientists Warning to Humanity"-

too long to post here.

There's a shorter version if I can find it!



And, of course, discussion/knowledge of global warming goes back to the late 1950's at least.

In fact, before 1900, scientists knew the damage that was being done to trees and plant life

from the beginnings of the industrial revolution.

An excellent book on this is "The Dying of the Trees" by Chas. Little

so get out there and plant a garden, build a bookcase, make a pizza, play with the kids, walk the dog, and do all the other stuff that makes you happy . . .

yesterday is gone and can't be changed, and the future is nothing but a shared (or sometimes not) illusion . . . live for the now -- it's all we have . . .

...try to enjoy the 10-15 years I have left and if the younger people who will be around to suffer thru what's coming can't see the problem....then so be it. Unfortunately...the rest of nature has to suffer also.

Thanks!

I figured out long ago that until the rich of the world are choking on thick air and their beachfront summer homes are submerged no serious government efforts will happen concerning the environment.

Mother Nature don't play any favorites.

Even if 3 billion people die prematurely your very own odds are still better than 50/50, right?

It's like river rafting down class five rapids without a helmet or flotation vest, and no previous experience... Enjoy the ride and have an exhilarating day!

Damn, but it's great to be alive in the 21st century!

:woohoo:

The methane release in the Arctic is already alarming the scientists and the percentage of increase and other measurements mean nothing. All that matters is that it is being released. And it will increase the warming phenomenon. Added to the continued carbon dioxide emissions by 2020 we will most likely be beyond the point of needing to scream. We will already be witnessing our own extinction.

Contributing even further to the problem is the deforestation of our rainforests. Our planet's lungs. Except our planet's lungs breathe in the opposite way from ours - they take in carbon dioxide and release oxygen.

This "2100" benchmark is a horrible mistake on the part of everyone. All the indications are that we are seeing an acceleration of the models.

What was supposed to possibly happen by 2020 is happening now. The predictions for what may happen by 2100 may happen by 2020.

The planet was around long before we were. It will be around long after we are gone. And we are deluding ourselves in our belief that we can merely begin to slowly decrease levels of carbon dioxide and stop what has alrady begun. We cannot stop it. The worst thing we have done is we have destroyed part of our lungs. It will be 100 to 200 years before reforestation in the equatorial regions provides a replacement canopy of trees taking in carbon dioxide and releasing oxygen. We may end up asphyxiating as the planet begins to change.

Scientists began to notice tropical glacier retreat in the 1960s and have consistently warned about the implications with regard to increased levels of carbon dioxide and its contribution to climate change. This is not new. It just became fashionable. They began to sound the alarm over Kilimanjaro in the 1980s. No one listened. And 20 years later no one is listening. They will not listen even as they die. False science they will claim as they look out at cities under water deserted because of heat waves and decimation by disease. They will not listen because they will be too busy counting their money. Wanting more.

How many people have Brazilian wood floors, primarily the rosewoods, without realizing those woods contributed to deforestation?

How many people have African Wenge wood floors? The tree is on an endangered species list now. Along with other living creatures. We don't realize that trees are living creatures. The most important of all living creatures because they are the most important part of the carbon cycle. The rainforests in particular provide a major portion of the planet's oxygen. People don't realize that when they show off their expensive floors. Beautiful floors. And also deadly.

Insignificant reductions in pollution levels, primarily carbon dioxide, and insignificant increases in mpg will have little effect if we no longer have lungs with which to breathe. And yet that is all we hear about. Carbon dioxide reduction 10,20,50 years from now and better gas mileage. We need to stop using fossil fuels altogether. We should have done so already. Most of us should have dumped our cars. Many of us might have had there been reliable public transit systems which would allow us to. Brazil took everything seriously. They are the only country that did. Now they are faced with reality. They must either reduce consumption of ethanol or destroy the Amazon rainforest to ensure they have sufficient supplies of ethanol. They traded one problem for another. There has been so much damage by the lumber industry that a growing number of Brazilians are not willing to allow any further damage. It will be interesting to see what the Brazilians end up doing. Most likely they will begin to decrease consumption and demand more public transit systems. And begin to dump their cars. They accepted reality 30 years ago. We still haven't. And we along with China and India are the biggest contributors to the problem. Even in the rainforests. We are the largest buyer of the Brazilian woods.

We are killing our planet and ourselves. And our governments still put profit over public policy. Greed over humanity.

And sorry but the includes our president and his administration. We do not have time. We must stop what we can stop NOW and hope that somehow we can survive what is coming.

There is sufficient methane gas in the Arctic to kill the bulk of our population in the Northern Hemisphere. When methane combines with oxygen it forms carbon dioxide. And there is sufficient amounts in the Artic region including the permafrost region to cause a mass exitinction. Those who didn't just die would wish they had. The temperature in one prehistoric period was increased by tens of degrees. Not one or two degrees. Tens of degrees. Ten or twenty. Ten might be survivable. Twenty degrees would not be. The previous release over 500 million years ago was the result of vulcanism increasing the mean temperature of the planet. And suddenly, massive pockets of methane in the permafrost, much of it under the Arctic ocean, were released. And it was not a matter of years but most likely months before the combination of decreasing oxygen levels and increasing temperatures killed off most life on the planet.

And what is the oil and gas industry about to do? Drill in the Arctic.

They may wipe us out by the end of 2010 long before any natural reduction in oxygen levels in our atmosphere resulting from deforestation, if they hit a large enough pocket of methane gas to set off a chain reaction.

There should be no drilling allowed in the Arctic Sea. The danger is too great.

Science fiction? No. Science. Science doesn't lie. Governments do.

Great post . . .

we have destroyed part of our lungs. It will be 100 to 200 years before reforestation in the equatorial regions provides a replacement canopy of trees taking in carbon dioxide and releasing oxygen. We may end up asphyxiating as the planet begins to change.

That 100 to 200 years will probably be quite shocking to many who have the idea that you
simply replace the forests/trees lost with new trees!

The trees are merely part of the ecosystem of the rainforest. They provide the canopy that takes in the carbon dioxide but the flora and fauna below also are part of the "recycling" process. When the trees are gone, the flora and fauna are gone as well. Along with animals and insects. It is a very delicate balance. Which we have disturbed.

But all we need to do is merely plant new trees. It isn't that simple.

The recent floods in the Amazon basin woke quite a few people up and there are few in Brazil who do not believe it was the result of the deforestation. Dried and deforested land is similar to concrete pavement. The rains merely run off. And cause flooding. And it will get worse. Not better. The floods in some areas have caused river bank dunes as high as 30-40 feet. That is not a normal phenomenon and another indication of what lies ahead for the Amazon basin if the deforestation continues. Which is why growing numbers of Brazilians are demanding it be stopped altogether. Not reduced, not managed better, but stopped altogether.

The problem of course is Lula and his ties to the "multinational" corporations which look at Brazil as if it is the new Africa to be plundered.

None of the proposals by our government mention the problem of deforestation. Which sums up the proposals, and the priorities, of our government and sums up whose interests are being served by our government.

The license to exploit nature - natural resources -- animal life --

Corporations have bought enough government and elected officials to ensure that they

NOT concern themselves with these issues.

One of the fundraisers for the "save the rainforests" movement that I know loves to have the fundraisers in her home. That probably contains about $1 million of rare Brazilian woods. What you call a mixed message. But then we live in a society of mixed messages, don't we?

It's the methane stupids. First we go all "Jackass" on mother earth: if she's venting methane I say we light those farts. Second we need to switch all of our irrigation to Brawndo the Thirst Mutilator in order to save our precious waters. Thirdly we need to take all of the titans of industry and Rehabimalate... rebahmila... umm make 'em pay along with their pet politicians. Enough of this f*g talk.

(Sorry for the too many 'Idiocracy' quotes, but this stuff is happening way sooner than Mike Judge predicted.)

I went out for 2 hours today and saw so many big round tummies,, WTF is wrong with people? And yeah, us lucky 1st-worlders will be the last to really pay but we still have to watch while the actual planet dies.

Every day I dread the stuff I'll see in the next 30/40 years I live.. Humans fighting over money and power and God while we choke the hell out of the most beautiful planet this side of the universe. I guess all the innocent humans squirted out from now on have much harder hearts than mine though, judging by the people who'll raise them.

planet to planet -- destroying them all as we go needless to say!

Patriarchy and its underpinning - organized patriarchal religion -- it's dogma of
"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" suppressed reality for so long
that we are losing the planet and most of the animal-life on it.

Women commented on that long, long ago -- but that's another problem . . .
the suppression of the majority gender on the planet!

Now that it's inevitable can I just drive my big car and eat my steak in peace?

why did so many in power close their eyes and cover their ears?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

for themselves, first

And nature will roll on.

it's too bad that logic is not taught in the schools

if it's too late, so what have you lost? some time and sweat and money? and you go down on the romantic side of the lost cause, so you probably get the girl/guy at least...and if it isn't too late, then what you lose by claiming defeatism is EVERYTHING -- you murder the beautiful innocent creatures and ecology of the world that you might have saved

at some point choosing hope is the only sensible option

if it's too late, we can do fuck all about it, so let's focus on what we can do if it ain't too late

To say that it is "too late" is like someone with high cholesteral or diabetes refusing to eat sensible because they feel that the damage is done, their life is over.
Yes, it would have been more useful if we would have done something to minimze this problem a long time ago. We can't go back though so we must start doing something today. Last year, I went to an alternative energy fair and saw many companies all working on several aspects of the same problem and it gave me hope. If the US and all the world's governments that could put resources into solving this problem and putting it into practice, then it definitely wouldn't be too late for us as a species and we may be even get to keep many aspects of our "normal" life albeit in a slightly altered form.