Ok here is a free hint and feel free to bookmark

the meme that the country is a center right country, run by moderates simply fall on its face on issues like single payer health care. Americans, by a wide majority, 70% or more in polls, want that.

Now the guv'ment has excluded the single payer fans from the table. And yes the meeting with the insurance companies reminded me of something else, but that is besides the point. So if Baucus manages to get that dog to the President's desk and he signs it... mind you Obama never ever promised single payer... I am willing to bet the COALITION that brought him to power will splinter into a thousand pieces.

There will be several effects:

People who had not voted in years, will go back to not voting, who cares? Government is not responsive.

Others will go vote for the republicans, not that they will give it to us either. Others will go for green... and a few more will become even more disillusioned with the country.

Fact is that Kennedy put it best, those who prevent peaceful revolutions assure the violent ones. And health care is just one of the major issues that I can guarantee will break the coalition needed to win elections in the duopoly. If they had any brains in DC they'd listen to the people who got them elected more than just during election time.

As is it is clear to me that they are not responsive, no matter what party, and it is time to find out who to make them fear us. We don't run the government, this is not our government, but their government, meant for the top 5%.

Oh and the country is center left, from polls, now the political system is center right to far right. Chew on that.

equivalent bill in the House - will it be in there , so there is a chance in conference committee?

Cheers
P

we find a way to make our point.

Letters don't work, and lord knows I send plenty. Emails forget it, calls you kidding me right?

Don't stop doing it, but realize we need another way, because we are spitting in the wind. This is beyond a letter behind a name. They only care about us once every two years, for the House, six for the senate and four for the presidency.

And right now we are in the good cop phase of murican politics... the bad cop, Bush... Reagan, Nixon...

insurance agency gives them AND provide them with lucrative lobbying jobs when they leave office, they will never listen to us.

Baucus is so arrogant he doesn't even bother to hide the fact he's been bought.

those who prevent peaceful revolutions assure the violent kind.

Kennedy got, it, these guys don't.

And if people feel they have no other choice... they will be pushed in that direction

I prefer the peaceful kind... but I will not guarantee that.

And yes, it is frustrating as hell...

"Indefinite Prolonged Detention".
Better watch what you say.
The Constitution no longer applies.

so yes, that may happen.

On the bright side, I will get health care

Advocates for Single Payer Health Care were arrested at Baucus' sham hearing.

The Plutocrats laughed.

for those who still had any.

Of course, I could be all wet here.

People scrimped and saved to get to Washington for the inaugural. They came on buses, on trains, in cars, on planes, any possible way to get there, they did. They stood outside for hours in the freezing cold just to say that they were part of history. I know someone who took a red-eye, spent 15 hours standing outside on Inaugural Day, and said she'd do it again just to have the experience.

Does the Obama administration truly think that those who sacrificed whatever they could to get to his inaugural would be averse to doing it again over an issue like oh, double-digit unemployment? How about health care? How many of those who worked their asses off to see him elected did so because they believed he was actually going to do something that would help all of us? So, stay with me for a moment here -- how many of those same people would make their way to Washington again?

If there was an organized effort, how many would participate?

IMHO, YMMV.

if one section of that coalition feels deeply betrayed, and you are seeing that already, that is how coalitions break down

Politicians assume that they will vote for me since the other guy will not promise them what they want to hear... while true to a point... they also forget that many of those folks who did all of that will either vote third party... or most likely stay home.

Now I guarantee you that if the Dems are even half as cynical as the republicans, they will promise their coalistion the moon and the sky in 2010. and when they don't deliver, that alone will reduce the GOTV in 2012...

How did Bush and the rest managed to get their coalition to the polls? Cynically they promised all the usual crap. It slowed down in the way it worked in 2006 and definitely was off by 2008. That coalition, between RIGHT WING Christians, Right Wing and moderates fell apart... over a lack of promises met. Mark my words, same process will happen here.

So if they want to keep power... they'd better give some of what the people want... or they will splinter their coalition faster than you can say white house... it could be 2012, or 2016... but it will happen... as the other side builds a new coalition.

In a duopoly you have to ask, why do we have such low voting rates? That is part of your answer.

even if it is mandated that we do so. We just say No. Maybe that is what it needs to come to because they sure won't listen to us. The single payer movement is the civil rights movement of our era. If we fail, the country will go bankrupt.

I was listening to Bill Moyers Journal podcast on health care reform this evening. If a person doubted that we need single payer, listening to that show will make you a believer. There is no other rational option. Before listening to the show, I would have settled for a public option. Now, no way. It is either single payer, so I am taking my marbles and moving to a sane country.

but the problem is how to make them listen to us? They don't fear us and take us for granted. I suggest civil disobedience and beyond not buying insurance, granted some of us couldn't do that... many of us couldn't. (they count on that too)

We need civil disobedience and we need to come up with effective ways for the 21st century, I fear they will involve massive strikes, as they did once

Problem is getting from here to there, and convincing muricans that yes they will need to sacrifice now.

Then there is the other reality that at least to me is obvious, they created a ME society, and we need a WE society.

He did a great job with the DNC.

class... truly

And outside the political parties.

If anyone threatens the status quo . . if any individual threatens the profits of the corporatocracy . . .then the corporate media stands ready to tear him down.

Remember Eliot Spitzer. Yeah, he went to a prostitute -- just like David Vitter and a hundred other Republicans -- but when the media got their hooks into him, his political career was over in 15 minutes. Even people on the so-called left (who in my day would have been moderate Republicans) feel free to trash him for his "immorality" or whatever.

Look at John Edwards. Yeah, he had an affair -- not a nice thing -- but apparently OK if you're Ronald Reagan, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, Strom Thurmond, whatever. Within 15 minutes of the story breaking, almost every corporate media outlet was writing his political obituary. Even so-called liberals make fun of him or "hate him" today.

Any individual who makes any moves at all will be crooked, crazy, or a child molester (suspected but never proven) by the end of the week.

As the financial bubble is bursting resulting in corporations going bankrupt, people becoming jobless and homeless, having no income nor savings, getting hungry, there is bound to be some civil unrest.

There is no way Obama and his advisers will be able to maintain civility when thousands(millions?) have lost everything. Whether people rise up and revolt by 2012 is questionable. It's probably going to take longer, and as the world descends into a depression, events will unfold chaotically anyway.

Will our leaders listen to us then? Or will the 'elites' install a type of government so they won't lose their status quo? I don't know. I'll probably be dead, but this will affect the future of my children and grandbabies.

edit: As you say above..."not our government, but their government, meant for the top 5%."

They have a play book -- really. They've achieved almost all of their goals.

o Destroy the middle class
o Destroy unions
o Drive down wages
o Eliminate taxes on the ultra-wealthy and corporations
o Weaken public education
o Eliminate social programs
o Do away with public health
o Privatize the infrastructure

Greg Palast warned us of all this years ago -- everything he predicted has come true

The next page in their book, he says, is to find ways to deal with the civil unrest that will follow -- but for that they would need to do away with Posse Comitatus and/or set up a mercenary army. Ooops, sorry, they've already done that.

Plus using criminal justice heavy handedly to be overly punative to political protesters by calling them domestic terrorists as has already happened to the RNC 8.

I see the courts as being about the only and last stand and they have made some seriously awful decisions like the law that allows seizure and disposal of assets of people accused of drug crimes BEFORE conviction (I can understand FREEZING assets). I knew we were seriously screwed when one class of criminal was exempted from the fourth Amendment and predict that other classes of criminal will follow, the next being "domestic terrorist" if I had to guess. The Kelo decision that basically allows emininent domain to be utilized to transfer property to a private entity is an abomination. The civil and property rights of the individuals get steadily eroded.

...you will have to show Proof of Health Insurance to get a job."---Hillary Clinton

watched that Bill Moyer's show on single payer. Especially people who think they have good insurance and are not concerned. Single payer - there is no other rational option.

of center, In the US... barely center right

You see the "political center" in the US has been pushed so far to the right it is not even funny.

Because maintaining the illusion of a center-right nation is paramount, the Republican party's job is to inflame its base voters via social and national security issues and then sell them out on economics. Economics is thereby kept out of the public view while the media Wurlitzer brings da noise on more divisive sound bytes, making it seem as if we really are a center-right nation.

For just the same reason, the Democratic party's job, by contrast, is to suppress its base by any means necessary. If it takes drafting a prominent Republican like Heath Shuler and repackaging him as a Democrat; gutting the winner of a Democratic primary like Ned Lamont and throwing support to the loser instead; strangling the campaign finances of a local and viable DuPage County challenger like Christine Cegelis and importing a Hawaiian challenger and giving her several million dollars (she lost); or calling the police on single payer activists; then so be it.

What many of us don't realize is this key point: actually winning elections is not even on their radar screen, and why should it be? When they lose, they land a cushy private sector job where they no longer need to pretend to care what we think (although many of them never have so pretended). This means we have no leverage on most of our Democratic "leaders."

They know perfectly well that their corporatist BS can jeopardize Democratic seats; they just don't care. Under current conditions, therefore, we have no leverage and no voice, as intended.

how do we make them FEAR the people? They've worked for fifty years to disenfranchise the people... and they have succeeded, so how do we change this?

I think we need to get things done, and perhaps we need to look at Gandhi.

The other choice is to give up... and essentially leave the system and wait for this house of cards, and it is rotten to the core, to fall on its face. Trust me, there are days I'm tempted.

Re What many of us don't realize is this key point: actually winning elections is not even on their radar screen, and why should it be? When they lose, they land a cushy private sector job where they no longer need to pretend to care what we think (although many of them never have so pretended). This means we have no leverage on most of our Democratic "leaders."

I figured that out on my own some time ago...they really don't give a damn about winning elections. It was revealing that they didn't care that the 2004 election was stolen right out from under them. Also, they never put any money behind progressive challengers no matter how popular or promising they might be. And then there was the horrible treatment of Howard Dean right after the election--ingratitude doesn't even begin to describe it! Downright boorish. I guess he's just too much of a populist for the national party to tolerate. The fact that he can actually GOTV and WIN a presidential election is beside the point.

In some cases, as this one, people going back to not voting may be a major goal.

.....but like the truth about 911, this realization is way too threatening to most people who insist that they are living in the myth they have been taught to believe.

They should run on single-payer.

The challenger will get a lot of support from the intertubes.

One of the problems with democracy, at least in America, is that the voters seem to be kinda stupid. They expect a President to listen to them. For example, after George W. Bush was elected, there was a poll showing that 60% of voters didn't think Bush should cut taxes. (at least according to some story I read shortly after the election. That story may have been crap and I am probably misremembering some of the details.)

Well, how silly is that. If a majority of the public did not want the Bush tax cuts then so many of them should not have voted for the candidate running on a platform of Bush tax cuts.

In the same way, if such a huge majority of the public wants single payer, then maybe they should have voted for candidates who support single payer. And Not for candidates who support other proposals. Because Obama did not run on a platform of single payer. If he had, he might not have won either the nomination or the general election.

70 % or higher, and you are right, americans are very stupid After all to expect a responsive government to the needs of the people is really stupid.

:sarcasm:

After all government is here to serve empire and the upper crust, and the rest of us are just asked, maybe, at election time.

Pro-life/abortion is a very hot issue. Many people I know only vote for the person if the candidate is pro-life. Usually that is a Republican.

But in the last election, the economy trumped pro-life/abortion. They were more upset about the economy (financial, 401k) and voted Obama, or else didn't vote.

--like the distinctions between "government guaranteed health care," single payer, or public option.

not necessarily single payer. The difference is lost on some people.

The people believe government should provide something for everybody. That does not mean the people believe it MUST be single payer.

It's OUR government and legislation is being written while we're diddling our thumbs. Obama wants us to organize and fight the insurance lobbies. Will we?

http://www.obama-mamas.com/blog/?p=240

once you figure that out you realize we have no friends in DC... unless you are one of the members of the upper 5%.

I will say it again, we DO NOT elect leaders, if you think so, move along subject. WE ELECT REPRESENTATIVES. they are supposed to represent US... not the lobbyist.

Yes, it is us... the people, who should not have to do this to get a responsive government, against a political and Corporatist class that is served very well, thank you.

And you are wrong. When people are asked about single payer, not starting now, but back in 1948 when Truman first tried it, that is what the people want. They won't give it to us... like they won't give anybody in the not 5% what they want. Just make promises.

By the way, we have been here before in US history, when government, regardless of party. served the plutocracy. Well it will take the same tactics it took back then. But first people have to stop thinking of the I and start embracing the we... start embracing what is to be a citizen and demand that government does what the people want. It is not doing that right now.

single payer by 70% or more in polls. I can't find polls that reflect what you claim. I support single payer, but let's see the links to what you claim. Looks to me like Americans are pretty divided on this.

"polls/single health care insurance option". There are many sources listed, but this was the first one that popped up. It's from '06, but there are more recent ones that support Nadin's op.

http://www.davidsirota.com/2006/03/news-flash-america-wants-single-payer.html

that is the sad part. They don't realize that they are not invited to be part of the 5%, just tools of the 5%. They are tools, useful idiots in fact. They are the same ones that repeat the meme that this is a center right country. You cannot make a horse to drink that water and will not matter how much evidence is presented. This is a football game. They don't realize that this is not a game... not for the currently almost fifty million uninsured.

I think a walk-out by health care providers, joined by proponents of single-payer, is the only thing that will even begin to get their attention. If we couple that with a nationwide refusal to pay for mandated private insurance, then maybe we'd have a chance. Even then, I'm not sure we'd have the clout to overide the corporations we are paying to kill us.

single payer. He said what was needed for it to happen was for the dems to take control of congress AND the White House, and THEN we would move toward it.

Of course, that was before he received over 300 million in corporate contributions.

I have no reference for the clip, but I saw it on Bill Moyers this morning. His whole show was dedicated to the single payer issue. It was, as usual very good.

From what I see nothing could be further from the truth.