I saw a car sticker yesterday that said Vietnam Vets Aren't Fonda Jane.

I just kept wondering why he felt that was relevant now. That happened over 40 years ago. The majority of the people alive in this country now were probably not even born then so they may not even understand what he is talking about. I'm not trying to defend Jane Fonda - I am just wondering why people nurse a grudge for decades. I also see all these people who have Bush/Cheney and Gore/Loserman stickers and feel like telling them they can no longer vote in that election.

I mean, how old was the car. :shrug:

It was one of those big honker trucks that was very expensive at one time.

can at least be a "badge of honor" in terms of how long you've been politically active. But yeah, the Jane Fonda one is hilarious. I would venture to guess that a large part of the population only has the vaguest idea of who Jane Fonda even is

My father was in Vietnam being shot at by the same guys that Jane Fonda was yukking it up with. Not funny, not cool.

divergence of opinion, even amongst those who were there.

I remember going to see the FTA tour when it came to Tokyo - Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland and others I don't recall. The Budokan was packed to the rafters, and most of the attendees were GIs. A lot of dependents (like myself) as well.

The MPs, with the cooperation of the Japanese civilian and military police, came in around midnight and broke up the party - I remember Sutherland was onstage playing guitar . . .

That was the same tour for which she is reviled by many, but there were a lot of soldiers, sailors, and airmen there that night that appreciated what she was doing.

I'm 23. I wasn't involved, and none of my family members were (Dad was about a year short of being drafted, but that's the closest it came). Am I a fan of JF? No, not at all, and I think what she did was absolutely insane. But it just doesn't mean that much to me emotionally.

My father was in Vietnam when Fonda hopped up on that anti-aircraft gun. She was cavorting with members of a military that was actively engaged in killing American soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines.

To this day, he won't watch a Fonda movie.

Is my father a grumpy old conservative? Hardly. he's a lifelong Democrat, who has backed guys like Mo Udall, Paul Tsongas, Paul Simon, Bill Bradley and Joe Biden over the years. He's basically a JFK Democrat, not uncommon for an Irish guy born in the 1940s. But Jane Fonda crossed a line that should never, ever be crossed, and he can not forgive that. I understand completely where he is coming from.

We would fight an enemy that invaded our country. Your father had no business being in their country in the first place, other than the fact that he was following the orders of war criminals.

The Vietnamese had every right to fight against the U.S. forces that invaded and destroyed their country, and killed hundreds of thousands of their people.

I love Jane Fonda. She was/is a great activist.

because supporting an army that was killing American citizens is a great way to drum up support for your cause. Yep, she sure was a great activist.

:sarcasm:

The fact that they were American citizens gives them the right to do whatever the fuck they want? American exceptionalism again? It's not possible that we fucked up, because after all, we're Americans?

Sorry pal, not buying it.

BTW, Jane apologized for going a little bit overboard in her activities while in Vietnam. Tensions were fairly high at the time.

I can accept that, and I still have great respect for her, and yes, she is a great activist.

But supporting their deaths is a bit much. Also, America as a nation did not "fuck up." At that point we had already surrendered our sovereignty to the Corporate Interests that now control this country.

I still love her. Sorry about that.

Are you perfect yourself, or what? :shrug:

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We were a member of SEATO (Southeast Asia Treaty Organization), whose purpose was to affirm the rights of Asian and Pacific people to self-determination though economic and cultural cooperation between the member countries.

So unless someone is against the rights of Asian peoples to have equality and self-determination (including the nearly 1 million who fled N.Vietnam - "voted with their feet" - after the communists took over in 1954) it's pretty hard to say the US was just there based on lies. That's a very simplistic view of history.

We were the ones engaged in wholesale killing, nearly two million Vietnamese died in Vietnam, far more than the number of American dead.

It was not a war of choice for Vietnam and it was for America, all we had to do to end it at any time was declare victory and go home.

Which is what we eventually did, fifty plus thousand casualties too late.

in Viet Nam were civilians.

Carpet bombing is remarkably hard on civilian populations.

And we dropped more bombs there than both sides did in all of WWII.

She thought it was FUNNY to shoot at Americans. She enjoyed making radio broadcasts and exhorting GIs to mutiny. She did this AFTER LBJ was gone and American troop strength was being drawn down from its high for THREE YEARS, and shortly before we left. It was 11th hour opportunism.

As a Viet Nam Veteran, I can heartily support the anti-war activities of folks like Joan Baez. Baez was outspoken and active ... and SHE went to the aid of the "boat people." She walked the walk. Jane was purely self-aggrandizing and exploitative. Disgusting.

I agree with your dad 100%.

Unlike you, I wasn't there (I was only ten when the helicopters were being ditched into the sea in April of 1975, and I was not in or of the USA at that time, anyway), but my thoughts echo yours. I'll watch her in films -- truth be told, though, with a few exceptions I tend to find her a very annoying actress -- but I think that what she did in Vietnam was unforgivable and, if I recall, the apology she eventually gave was somewhat of a non-apology-apology, given way too late. It'd be easy to write it off as her being young and naively idealistic, but I think that'd be a cop-out (I don't recall John Lennon, who wasn't even American, heading over to Vietnam to be a propaganda prop for the North) and it still, in the end, doesn't excuse her actions, and neither does the fact that Vietnam was without doubt the wrong war in the wrong place and that many Vietnamese civilians died directly or indirectly because of US intervention. Being an opportunist, in general, is not worthy of arbitrary condemnation (she wouldn't have had a career if she wasn't imbued with a good streak of opportunist, anyway), but what she did was both stupid and injurious to those of her compatriots who, for whatever reason, were engaged in the conflict over there.

It was ONLY in promoting herself and a movie that she was interviewed and gave the kind of "apology" roundly CONDEMNED on DU. "It's too bad you're offended" and (George W. Bush's favorite) "youthful indiscretion" (she was 34 years old!) are NOT any kind of 'apology' or even an indication of the most superficial of comprehension. Mindless 'leftists' engage in grossly-misplaced 'loyalty' to someone who harmed the peace movement and liberalism in general by her opportunistic and self-aggrandizing behavior. The knee-jerk reaction to jump to the defense of anyone derided by the xenophobic, junior fascists in this country is brain-dead ... alienating many independent liberals and moderate veterans.

'Barbarella' and 'Cat Ballou' was an iconic pin-up - a short-timer's calendar - an image that represented much of what young guys obsessively counted the days until their return to that 'world.' As such, she came to be representative of the deep betrayal felt by so many upon their return to a hostile reception upon their 'coming home.' Kids ... mere 'puppies' running back to their mistress and getting kicked in the teeth. It seems almost impossible to convey how much that hurt so many - how her behavior was emblematic of that deep emotional trauma.

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He was in Vietnam because he was drafted, and not because he wanted to be there. He used to say that there was a world of difference between protesting for peace, and joining the enemy side to publicly encourage the death of your own countrymen...even the liberal ones who didn't support the war in the first place. Fonda did the latter.

and my partner, who was ON THE GROUND in Vietnam totally accepts her apology and it's no big deal with him now...and he STILL can't watch ANY war movies - especially ones dealing with that particular war.

I still haven't brought myself to watch WWII movies like "Band of Brothers" and that other one that was done recently because my Father was in the Army's 4th Armoured Division and had some pretty gruesome storries that even I didn't know about until he died and others told me.

I wondered why all his pics during the war were only of bombed out villages and homes, frozen German soldiers by the roadside, bombed cemetaries with the coffins and their corpses all strewn about...

NOT PRETTY...

I always wanted to do a book with those pictures...

She got pwned in a photo op by the N Vietnamese....But she showed more guts than any politician I can think of at that time.

I have to say I respect those who walk the talk no matter what side of the political spectrum they fall.

you'd still be pissed too.

I know, it's time to get over it. I agree. But it wasn't her opposition to the war - a lot of folks fighting it opposed it - it's that one photograph.

wrong and she has apologized, hasn't she?

The counter Bob Hope USO show she put together was great. There's a clip of it in "Sir, No Sir" where they're singing "F-- the Army" and doing skits with "Nixon" and "Pat".

-- Dick, Dick, the White House is being attacked!

-- Don't worry, we can call the 3rd Marines.

-- It IS the 3rd Marines!

The soldiers in the audience are having a great time and even singing with them.

2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted.

Don

history

my country right or wrong?

right?

wanted more of a choice in their assignment.

My father technically volunteered. He joined the Navy and went to OCS, which he figured was a better deal than being drafted. it worked out pretty well until he was given an assignment as a Naval Gunfire Liason Officer attached to the 3rd Marine Division in Dong Ha and Qua Viet.

that's why they had the fucking LOTTERY because they were RUNNING OUT OF MEN - draftees AND volunteers...

MOST of the men who fought in Vietnam were NOT volunteers, by a LONG shot!!!

wounded there. I was one of the most gung-ho, anti-communist guys you would ever meet. Until my first combat patrol when I saw the people whose lives we were destroying on a daily basis and the damage we were doing to their country. After that, my whole view of that war and my country changed 180°.

I had friends who died there and I saw many Vietnamese dead--VC, NVA and civilians alike. But the one thing that stuck with me and most of the guys in my unit was that WE were the enemy and WE needed to get the fuck out of Vietnam. I came home in '69, refused a promotion and a slot in the Reserves, and immediately began protesting our involvement.

I remember all the uproar over Jane Fonda's stupid stunt on the anti-aircraft gun and her bullshit comments about American POW's lying about being tortured. To me she was a clueless "movie star" trying to do the right thing but doing it the wrong way.

The people I am still pissed at are the ones who got us into that steaming pile of shit and kept us there. Namely our corporate politicians and stooges like Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Robert McNamara, Melvin Laird, and many many others.

Somehow I never could muster up the outrage at a naive, young American woman who thought she was doing something to stop the war. But knowing there were many, many men who were gaining political capital, personal influence, and even wealth off of the deaths of my fellow Americans and innocent Vietnamese who were defending their county or just trying to live their lives, that's where my outrage was focused.

Fonda was just another innocent pawn who got used to great advantage by the anti-communist, pro-military machine.

duly elected government of Germany back in the 30s and 40s

what cowardly traitors they were, too, just like Fonda and her ilk

right?

When my father came home, he got involved in the antiwar congressional campaign of another young Navy veteran who had also soured on the war. A guy named John Kerry; maybe you've heard the name?

FTA.


- Disabled US Army vet, 1966-1969

The people who protested the war in a responsible manner were right. A vapid Hollywood airhead who lets herself get used as a photo op by the other side was not.

You know nothing about Jane Fonda, so why don't you just STFU?

She's Shakespeare and Carrie Nation all rolled into one.

:rofl:

Doesn't sound like you have. Oh well, you can still just blow shit out of your butt. :crazy:

I've seen her in the movies and heard her speak in political videos. I was not impressed. Nor was I by her self-serving non-apology to America's vets.

Your childish insults and name-calling on this subject (throughout the thread) do not help your position. We all have our sacred cows and have to realize that they are going to be challenged.

Yes, we had movies on board my rustbucket of a ship, down in the rivers of the Mekong. And popcorn. We also got shot at. (We could walk and chew gum at the same time.) The movie was Barefoot in the Park. All I remember was her shrieking and griping through the part I saw. And I walked out of the movie and got some odd looks from my shipmates in the flickering darkness, sort of like the flickering darkness scene in Sunset Boulevard.

I realize the material is the responsibility of the writer, and I've never been FONDA Neil SIMON's junk to this day, although I didn't know who he was at the time. After my Vietnam tour was over, my 2nd ship was stateside, but I was still insulated from the outside world, guess what no computers, internet, not even news. I have NO memory of the moon landing (and I am NOT a moon-denier).

Really, I see her more as somebody who went through boo-coo phases trying to find an identity for herself, but at bottom a legacy kid starving for Daddy's approval, whether rebelling against him or slavishly adoring him. People who switch from one extreme (political or other) to another are just not grounded. Al CAPP (cartoonist of Lil Abner) and RAYGUN switched from being FDR followers to the opposite, and were mere PIKERS compared to her: She went from legacy brat to sexpot to kinky trophy wife to political radical to fitness entrepreneur to women's advocate to OLD trophy wife to grande dame-- with some stages probably left out here.

The two constants in her appear to be: Daddy Daddy Daddy. And a need to keep telling us masses what to think and do because we're so benighted.

her gutsy stands on matters important to her and managed to look away when she married Ted Turner. Her latest incarnation, i.e. born-again fundie has pretty much worn out my patience now.

t'other night.

Jane's a randy thang in spite of her newfound religious proclivities!

I remember thinking that she was demonstrating the difference between us and many other countries: here, in the US of A, she had the right to speak without getting her head lopped off by the government. Dad about disowned me for that. Ironically, my brother is indifferent to all of it, and he served three tours in Vietnam.

Well, little doubt, but as nasty as Jane was, you're not supposed to cave like how McCain had, right?

Or Hitler... What he did was 60 years ago. Why do people keep holding a grudge against him? (I'm not comparing people. I'm comparing "temporal dissonance". I don't know what that means, but it sure does sound cool...)

agree to do the aa gun photo-op?

Her belated apology was too little and too late IMO. However it really doesn't matter since the vets who protest her are the only reason she gets any press today.

It's about Iraq and Afghanistan and the next one.

The U.S. government can commit war crimes by invading other countries but those who actually take part in that are exempt because they didn't make policy. Meanwhile, anyone who "abets the enemy" is a traitor even though the "enemy's" right to fight back is simultaneously - but separately - "understood" back at home.

Complicated, ain't it?

She had the courage to call the war exactly what it was...BS.

Then emulate her. Go to Iraq and give aid and comfort to the people that set IEDs and kill American men and women.

It's what they want to call us (insinuations of being traitorous) that oppose the current bloodshed.

presidential campaign, along with rubber flip-flops ("flip-flopper," get it?) before the Great Flip-Flopper meme was even popularized by the FoxHeads.

RW true believers were instructed to make their way to front row seats at Democratic events and clap the rubber flip-flops together loudly, drowning out anything the Democratic candidate was trying to say.

purposely go out and find replacement bumper stickers on this issue every time they get a new car.

I mean, I scraped off my upside-down "W"s shortly after the election.

They sell bumper stickers like that nearby.

he he a little tacky but it is better than picking at old scabs

It's then I realized that way to many Boomers have their brains stuck in 1968 and I got what Obama meant by Boomer politicians still fighting their college-age battles.

Oh, and I think what She did was absolute BS and an insult to Americans that fought in Vietnam.

Much more so than asswipes like John McCain who were dropping bombs on innocent civilians...leveling villages, defoliating the country, poisoning it for years to come.

The gunners she posed with were fighting against those atrocities.

She apologized for going too far, and it's good enough for me, especially since I don't think it was that big of a deal.

We were the bad guys, mmm-kay? :think:

I signed up when I was 16. I left home when I was 17, to fight in Vietnam and save the world.

I figured out pretty quickly that it was a bunch of shit.

They made the mistake of giving me a secret clearance, plus I was in the same destroyer squadron as the USS Maddox, the ship allegedly attacked during the Gulf of Tonkin incident. The crew of the Maddox were my drinking buddies.

We were the bad guys, and that "we" includes me. :shrug:

What exactly did those good guys do after we left?

Fonda can go to hell.

"I wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire."

There is a big god-damned difference between protesting an unjust war and trying to end it and supporting the people/groups that are killing American boys in combat.

Her apology does not make her any less of an asshole.

Why do people nurse grudges? Ask a VVet how he felt about an airhead American actress coddling up to North Vietnamese troops. Hell, why doesn't Angelina Jolie go party with the fighters Iraq? She's against the war.

The region fell to communism and fascism. Million more died.

The government of South Vietnam wanted us there. We were helping them defend themselves from an invading communist army.

People are mad because she paraded around with the enemy. While they were risking their lives she was working against them.

That was its fundamental flaw. Nixon knew that, which is why he strengthened diplomatic ties to China.

She's a really nice person, who champions liberal causes and has always been anti-war. She made a mistake forty years ago, which she has apologized for over and over again admitting she was wrong. It's time to give it a rest. Those Vietnam vets who keep beating the same old drum are mostly freepers and closet neo-Nazis anyway.

I work with an older veteran, who sustained some serious damage in Vietnam, mental and physical. This whole recent election cycle really had him going. He is a big time Republican (even though unions are his top issue) and loved Bush, but was convinced that Jane Fonda should run, and that she was the only one from any party he would vote for. I cant explain it, and unfortunately neither can he.

threads with "the Confederate flag and the traitorous scum who have them" as a theme. It is amazing. And the venom flows both ways.

edited to add just finished reading all the posts on this 'holding a grudge' thread. Holy Crap!

I've had on DU have been over Jane Fonda's role in the 60s-70s regarding U.S. involvement in Southeast Asia.

It's been some decades since that time. I defended her right to speak. I admired her courage in doing so. I respect the range of comments she made, from her genuine apology all the way to her campaign for economic democracy. I listened to her speak in Dayton, Ohio at the peak of the latter campaign. And I love her work in film.

Long live Jane Fonda.