Can a Conservative Extremist be a real Christian?

PLEASE READ BEFORE RESPONDING: (Thank You!)

(If you respond, please do so with a brief explanation)

I frankly do not understand how a true Christian can go to church to listen to an hour-long message about God's love, and then spend 40 hours a week eagerly listening to hate on the radio or Fox News. One would think that having one's mind filled with 40 hours of hate, rage, racism and fear would overpower any love gained from that one-hour-a-week church service.

Right wing radio hosts all claim to be Christians, yet they are making fortunes by routinely violating the 9th Commandment which states, "thou shalt not bear false witness against their neighbors". How can they profess to be Christians when the 'products' they sell are hate, fear, rage and racism?

The business plans each one of these right wing radio hosts' use are built upon "bearing false witness against their neighbors". And when they aren't lying about their neighbors, they are ruthlessly judging them without any to substantiate their claims. Their goal is to inflict pain, damage characters and make massive amounts of money off of those who are gullible enough to listen to them.

If you judge a man by his works then look at the results of the evil deeds committed by right wing radio hosts. There are huge numbers of people in our country filled with blind rage and unbridled hatred. Their gatherings are filled with people using signs and chants to express their rage. Many gleefully advocate using violence to achieve their unspecified goals. Some openly carry weapons or hold signs threatening to use weapons to kill. Yet each one of these people, if asked, would surely claim to be a Christian. Right wing radio hosts do not care about the consequences of their words, and if their words do eventually lead to the assassination of a public figure, they would run from responsibility faster than the speed of a bullet which left the barrel of one of their crazed fan's guns.

My personal Christian friends who listen to Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck and others seem to enjoy the constant hate flowing from the mouths of these radio hosts. It causes them to get angry when recalling things they heard from talk radio (which they never seem to try to verify to even see if it is true). They often mimic the same condemnations and loathing they hear from right wing talk radio hosts, most of the time just repeating what they are told, word for word. As I listen to them I often think of that Biblical line, "Take the plank out of your own eye, before trying to remove the splinter out of another's". If the 'Christian' listeners of right wing radio adhered to just that one line talk radio would be silenced overnight.

But unfortunately, right wing talk radio will continue its assault on the civil discourse of our nation, and it will continue to provoke hatred and even violence as long as there are people who are gullible enough to allow themselves to be manipulated by rage, hatred, fear and racism, all of these the most basest of human emotions Jesus taught we should overcome. And it's sad how even those who profess to be His followers so easily discount their leader's teachings. They not only ignore His teachings, they condemn virtually everything Jesus lived, and died for.

Instead of focusing on Jesus' words, conservative extremists cling to the words of Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck. They admire these purveyors of hate and believe their every word. But shouldn't a true Christian always try to seek the truth, rather than live a life mired in a hate-induced coma of ignorance caused by dishonest and opportunistic people who profit by marketing hatred?

I sincerely do not understand how a true Christian can be a conservative extremist at the same time. Conservative extremists seem to attack everything about what Jesus taught and stood for. I wonder if others are as perplexed as I am about this issue. By the way, though I am not a Christian, I do admire the teachings of Jesus. I just wish conservative extremists could admire them too, at least enough to understand them.


CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST DEFINITIONS:
(these are just a few of the rigid & absolute beliefs of a conservative extremist)

- Profess to be Christians, who seem fixated on only the Old Testament portion of the Bible.
- Believe in violent methods to achieve goals and oppose diplomacy as being weak.
- Believe there should be no laws or regulations to restrict capitalism or make corporations accountable.
- Believe government spending is always too high, yet when in power they always increase spending and the size of government.
- Oppose any organization where workers band together to obtain a safe working environment and a fair & equitable salary for the work they perform.
- Believe in small, ineffective government, like Somalia, a libertarian's paradise with no government and where everyone has automatic weapons.
- Believe THEIR social conservative beliefs should be mandated by the government, yet bewilderingly say they don't want government in their lives.
- Believe that trickle down economics actually works, although even GHW Bush called Reagan's economic plan, "Voo Doo Economics".
- Oppose social programs, yet readily accept government services, government roads, social security, etc...
- Believe in the government to start wars, kill, spy, wiretap, execute, incarcerate and torture, but not trust government to assist in healthcare.
- Believe corporations are almost like infallible gods which need no regulations (Bush 2000 quote: "Businesses MUST be allowed to regulate themselves")
- Believe the government using a Census to count them is intrusive, yet are unconcerned by corporate accumulation of their personal information.
- Oppose social justice and social equality, with even Glenn Beck telling Christians to leave their churches if they see the words 'social justice', comparing 'social justice' to Nazis and communist regimes. And of course, Beck professes to be a 'Christian'. By the way, there are at least 2,000 references in the Bible touting 'social justice' in a positive light (the major part of the Christian philosophy), so apparently Glenn Beck doesn't even read the Bible, let alone be a 'Christian' or understand the teachings of Jesus.


DISCLAIMER/NOTE: I realize that by even asking this question and by apparently lumping all right wing radio Christians together I am guilty of judging and condemning of others. But the difference is: I don't profess to be a Christian, they do...

:eyes:

I can't cite chapter and verse unless I look it up, but I'm sure that the notion of "you will know them by their fruits" is very well articulated in the Bible.

I have no idea how the right-wing Christian extremists justify the utter hypocrisy in their heads.

Take the bits you like, make up a reason why the rest doesn't matter.

The only difference is that right-wing Christians do it to justify bigotry and left-wing Christians do it to rally against the same bigotry.

Useful book that Bible.

driving those 100,000 dollars Mercedeses, preachers who promise salvation only if they fill up the collection baskets.

in so many ways it would be hard to contain in one post. Start with valuing spirit over substance, compassion over contempt, generosity over greed.

NT!

Of course they can. They're sports fans if they call themselves sports fans, whether they fit your personal definition of a fan or not.

The Bible can be used to justify just about anything. No doubt the people you're talking about ask themselves if a person can be Christian and *not* be a Conservative extremist. In fact, I know they do. I've heard it myself. They have scripture to quote, too.

Since a conservative extremist is opposed to everything Jesus stood for then how can they call themselves Christians? If hate everything about football, the uniforms, the physical contact, the rules, the players, the field, and so on, can I say I am a sports fan? A conservative extremist is against the tolerance, love, charity, generosity, compassion, and empathy of Jesus. They openly laugh at people who care calling them 'touchy feeling' people. They attack women who want rights as 'feminazis'. They attack workers who just want a just payment for their toils. Jesus taught social justice and yet conservative extremists seem to all hate the poor, the weak, the vulnerable and the frail. They seem to always side with the rich and powerful. Jesus taught the opposite. He condemned the rich and the only time he became angry in the Bible was at the money lenders where he overturned their tables. And Jesus had great empathy for the poor. He healed the sick, fed the hungry and lifted the spirits of the downtrodden, all without asking for a dime. Conservative extremists would attack all of the people Jesus helped as deadbeats, freeloaders and lazy. After all, why weren't all those people at the sermon on the mount working to produce food for themselves instead of doing nothing.

I agree with you though. The Bible can justify anything. And that is what scares me about Christians. They would like our country's laws to be infiltrated with the laws in the Bible. Eventually, if someone ate shellfish they would be condemned to hell just as it states in Leviticus. If Christian extremists had their way this country would be a theocracy and have all of the problems the Muslim ran countries are having. But Christian extremists would love the oppression. They would love branding people on their foreheads or stoning to death a woman on her period, all dictates contained in the Bible.

I mean, look at Cortez who conquered the Aztecs in the name of Jesus Christ.

Look at the the good and kind men of God who stole American Indian Children from their families and raised them in schools to be good and kind Christians.

Look at the Christians who murdered int he name of Christ down through the ages.

Now, don't think I feel any other religion is better.

No matter how you try to limit what Christianity is in order to exclude those you don't like, it doesn't work.

They will continue murdering in the name of Jesus, and they are Christians.

Do you think Bush & Cheney would have invaded another Iraq if it was a predominantly 'Christian' country? I doubt it. Throughout time Christians first demonized people before killing them. They condemned native Americans as savages so they could slaughter then and steal their land. Witches were burned at the stake by people accusing them of being witches so they could steal their property. The Inquisitions killed millions. More people have been brutalized, slaughtered and persecuted by Christians than any other force on earth. It was easy for Bush & Cheney to manipulate the gullible fundamentalist christians in the US killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, after all, they were just lowly Muslims... Sad...

and kill them anyway.

I find it wrong that the first things that left wing Christians or right wing Christians say is that that aother group aren't real Christians because they don't believe A, B, and C.

Do you think Bush & Cheney would have invaded another Iraq if it was a predominantly 'Christian' country? I doubt it. Throughout time Christians first demonized people before killing them. They condemned native Americans as savages so they could slaughter then and steal their land. Witches were burned at the stake by people accusing them of being witches so they could steal their property. The Inquisitions killed millions. More people have been brutalized, slaughtered and persecuted by Christians than any other force on earth. It was easy for Bush & Cheney to manipulate the gullible fundamentalist christians in the US killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, after all, they were just lowly Muslims... Sad...

Do you think Bush & Cheney would have invaded another Iraq if it was a predominantly 'Christian' country? I doubt it. Throughout time Christians first demonized people before killing them. They condemned native Americans as savages so they could slaughter then and steal their land. Witches were burned at the stake by people accusing them of being witches so they could steal their property. The Inquisitions killed millions. More people have been brutalized, slaughtered and persecuted by Christians than any other force on earth. It was easy for Bush & Cheney to manipulate the gullible fundamentalist christians in the US killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, after all, they were just lowly Muslims... Sad...

Do you think Bush & Cheney would have invaded another Iraq if it was a predominantly 'Christian' country? I doubt it. Throughout time Christians first demonized people before killing them. They condemned native Americans as savages so they could slaughter then and steal their land. Witches were burned at the stake by people accusing them of being witches so they could steal their property. The Inquisitions killed millions. More people have been brutalized, slaughtered and persecuted by Christians than any other force on earth. It was easy for Bush & Cheney to manipulate the gullible fundamentalist christians in the US killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, after all, they were just lowly Muslims... Sad...

There is not one set of Christian beliefs beyond the very basic belief in a man named Jesus. There are hundreds of versions of Christianity, at least.

until Paul.

They care nothing about Christ or even general decency. In fact, separated from the rest of the twisted up dogma they would deny Jesus till the cows come home.

It is plain ole nigh onto impossible to reconcile a Reich wing belief system and any of the stuff written in red. They are distortions of Christianity and unadulterated hypocrites. When the Rapture comes they'll be sitting here listing to hate radio and playing holier than thou till Judgment Day comes.

People usually think those in your 'ingroup' have a wide variety of opinions and everyone in their 'outgroup' all think the same.

That's why Muslims are thought to all be terrorists by so many.

As far as I know there has never been a time when you people followed the rules your book set down. All of you pick and chose what parts you want t use to justify or motivate your actions.

So yes of course they are "real Christians".

Voltaire says it all below the pic.

I can call my self a gin and tonic but that doesn't mean a lemon wedge would brighten my flavor.

Don't worry though, they don't see me as a real Christian either. The Bible is a living document that should speak beyond the words on the pages.

Read the Gospels and then objectively let me know how well the Reich stands up to those teachings. You don't have to believe anything just read it and compare it to their philosophies and tell us how it connects. Listen to them speak of their faith and observe how little the teachings of Christ come to the surface.

Jesus gave only two commandments and I try Ringo, I try.

I stand by what I said, the religion does not and never has followed the teachings of it's nominal master. Hell, he was even killed before the perversions of what he failed to teach began. It sounds to me that you are doing what Jesus would have wanted (I try to live by the second), but by doing so, you are right, you are not a real Christian.

Question; What about the Old Testament? Isn't it an integral part of the whole?

in a world where recycling & frugal living *used* to be conservative but has instead been replaced by capitalistic anarchy and liaise fair libertarianism - a further excuse to not even being willing to maintain the infrastructure of the republic such 'conservatives' claim they hold so dear; not in a world where it is said Jesus' disciples were conservative with respect to his entering The Garden; not in a world where John the Baptist was considered 'extreme' but at least brought/suggested people to a thought filled with a greater kingdom for all, and not just the money changers and for which he ultimately lost his head...

...

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So the simple answer is 'no'. There's no way in hell Glenn Beck or any one of them is willing to get up on that old rugged cross, or skeedaddle off to the grottos of Patmos for any self-effacing reflection which is a good thing cause it does seem reasonable to conclude that none of that will be part of their travel itinerary

The same way a suicide bomber is still a "true Muslim", they are the very definition of their faith taken to the extreme.

And as far as that whole "go to church and learn about love" thing, it certainly depends on who is preaching AND if you want to you can find all sorts of horrifying crap in the Bible to justify hate filled extremism.

+1 Good argument.

You are indulging in the "No True Scotman" fallacy.

So is religion.

If you condensed Christianity down to only one action for its adherents to take, that action would be to save themselves. Sure, there's nice stuff in there, but the fear-based death cult acquiescence to a superior entity seems to be in the driver's seat a lot more often, and the selfish mania to secure one's safety in the good graces of this cosmic Godfather sort of spoils things.

Believers of all faiths tend to not take responsibility for the ugly elements within their respective faiths; those who go off the deep end are consistently dismissed as not being true believers, even when they're taking the nastier parts of the scripture and acting upon them. Islamist terrorists have plenty of scripture to justify thumping on the infidels. I've literally been told that men and women are equal in Islam, but a quick rejoinder of "oh yeah, so how many husbands can you have?" gets met with spluttering equivocation and triple-talk.

It's unfair to cherry-pick to justify religions or vilify them, but unfairness is the heart and soul of the major religions.

Thus, for all its niceties, Christianity demands "faith" (certainty), really doesn't much care for heathens (different people), and focuses on personal status with the big sky chief, so it's no damned mystery to me that CHRISTIANS TEND TO BE CONSERVATIVE.

Unquestioning belief that one's group is the only one that's right is a sign of conservatism. Expecting to have sway over others by dint of superiority is a recipe for tyranny.

The odd belief that so many Liberal Christians have that these intolerances and rigidities are not the dominant forces in the subculture is endearing, but pretty much unfounded as far as I can see.

:eyes:

But notice how right wing christians love to break God's laws by bearing false witness against their neighbors and judging everyone as evil? Right wing christians are fakes. If there is a God I hope he does something special to those hypocritical conservative extremist christians who regularly attack everyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do.

becaue I'm completely objective.

Sid

this is what biblical prophecy foretold.

Indeed, it is profoundly antithetical to Christianity.

Modern American conservatism is its own religion.

There is no such thing as a "true" or "false" Christian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Yes, when some people's action belie 'most everything Jesus is supposed to have said, we really are entitled to conclude that they are not Christians, despite plentiful lip service paid to Christianity.

It's when we get hasty or imprecise about it that we fall into fallacy.

I think it came down to the conclusion that all that's really needed to be Christian is

1) self-identification as Christian
2) belief that Jesus probably existed and was a good guy
3) belief that at least some parts of the Bible are useful advice for modern life

"I frankly do not understand how a true Christian can go to church to listen to an hour-long message about God's love,"

It really depends on the church whether or not the message you hear is in any way contradictory to the Beck/Limbaugh diatribes. The church I grew up in did not do any real charity or outreach, and the weekly message was usually "Aren't we all so special because we are saved and God loves us...look at all the stupid people out there who would reject his love..aren't they dumb?" At no time were we encouraged to reach out with love and compassion and maybe that way more people would come to KNOW his love...no, it was pretty much the spiritual equivalent of the "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude so often seen in the Republican party. It was entirely consistent with the crap spewed daily on hate radio and Fox.

That baptist preacher savagely attacked everyone in the building, saying they were all pieces of shit (or words close to that). I was with my girlfriend, but I had to get up and leave. I would not allow myself to be subjected to that kind of abuse. So in that case the preacher wasn't teaching love, he was teaching hate. So I can see how right wingers can easily believe dopes like Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity since they have preachers who are just as evil, and just as clueless about Jesus.

Jesus actually taught.

Nearly every time I see this fallacy, it's in this context.

who have been a staunchly loving, tolerant, pacifistic sect of Christians since their inception.

Maybe time to give the hate a rest.

and hope to evade the problem of millions upon millions of shitty people who are Christian.

It's a cute verbal deception for the dim, and that's all.

New Testament.

The mixture of Christian theology with supply-side economics is one of the most perverse political amalgamations since Nazism.

There are some who do not listen to rush and the like. They believe the government should not get involved because the community should take care of the poor, for example, and they may be very generous in helping out their own family and/or neighbors who get into trouble.

They help who they want to help, i.e., those who follow the rules they believe should be followed (they might help a man out of work to support his wife and children, but would not help a single mother or father because of the "violation" of the rules).

They want to be able to judge that person and/or then have the ability to manipulate gratitude into having the person helped live the way they think they should.

So they aren't entirely full of hate and evil, but they are judgmental. They don't want the government involved because it will treat all the same.

...if they can consider themselves christians at all... I have seen so many fake christians. And every Christian I know who is a right winger is a fraudulent Christian who openly hates what Jesus stood for.

They're as christian as any red-letter jesus fan. Just different Interpretations -- and since there's zero evidence any version is real, they all carry equal weight (which is to say, none at all).

Some Christians actually try to live by the teachings of Jesus. But most do not. And every conservative Christian I know definitely does NOT live by Jesus' teachings. They attack everything Jesus stood for. They believe Jesus should have charged those starving people for food. If Jesus was as 'conservative' as the right wingers of today Jesus would have stood on the mountaintop and yelled at all the masses below "Get a job you lazy deadbeats!". And a 'conservative' Jesus would have demanded an insurance card from any of the sick people he healed.

I would hate to live in the evil world of conservative Christianity.

I realize you said tried, But "I tried" is so trite. And I don't think Saint Peter would take the "I tried" excuse. He'll send you down to hell to be tossed into a lake of fire, and so on. I'll tell you, I don't believe in any of this, it must make Christians really freaked out when they hear the lake of fire part and remember all the bad things they did. Or maybe not. Maybe they plan on repenting just before they die, the way Emperor Theodosius did. He decided to wait, get baptized and repent later, after he had the legions massacre 16 thousand Christians who didn't adhere to the Nicene creed. Those were the days.

Christian doesn't mean "good person" or even "person who tries to be good." Christian to me means one who worships as a Christian. If someone tells me he or she is a Christian, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I just wonder how someone can profess to be a follower of Jesus, yet not practice any of his teachings. I believe you missed my point. A person can say they are an astronaut too, and would you believe them? Or would you want some kind of evidence what they said is true? If someone claims to believe in Jesus they have to at least demonstrate they are trying to follow in his footsteps. If they hate everything about what Jesus stood for and did, as a lot of conservative extremists do, how can they be considered Christians?

Right wing conservative extremists use threats of violence, they verbally attack others, they call for mass killings and yet they 'claim' to be Christians. Sorry but I don't give people like that the benefit of the doubt. There IS no doubt what they really are.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to be a Christian. All it takes is faith, which isn't saying much.

It seems to me that an awful lot of people on the left mistake the stoic philosophy Christianity borrowed from for the religion itself. It is only a small part of the religion, in fact, a part that demonstrably can be easily separated from it. Conservatives ignore the philosophy, but liberals ignore the theology. I'm sure conservatives like to argue that liberals can't be Christians because they don't pay attention to the fierce, godly part of Jesus, the one who came not to bring peace but a sword, to pit brother against brother, to prepare the world for his return when he would separate true believers in him from the followers of the anti-Christ, whom he would cast for all eternity into a lake of fire.

John Boehner said Armageddon will follow passage of the health care bill. John Boehner is a 'Christian' who has faith and believes in Jesus and all that crap, so we'll soon see all the gun-toting murdering 'real' Christians shooting everyone with automatic weapons. My only hope is that when they get beamed up in the rapture that I go in the opposite direction. Spending an eternity with the likes of the evil thugs who are conservative Christians would be complete HELL.

This rapture thing is a new development in American myth. I've heard about it a bit, but not being American I have to confess my knowledge is spotty, although I do read Richard Adams.

But I have a theory, the guy who wrote that part was using drugs.

You don't have to practice any of his teachings. All you need is faith, brother. And then you have to make sure you repent just before the bullet hits you between the eyes. if you do repent, you are going to heaven.

Because according to Christian dogma, to be a real Christian you have to believe Jesus was your saviour, he died on the cross to cleanse our sins, and was resurrected on Sunday. And of course, you also have to believe he was the Son of God, and today sits to the right of God, waiting for events to unfold, to come back to earth and perform additional tasks.

I'm sorry I'm so brief, I learned this by reading the Bible, but I'm not Christian. However, I have studied Christians a lot, so I can behave properly in their company, and can pass for one. It really helps when invited to have dinner with an American family from say Texas, and they really like my Bible scholarship until I have some wine, and point out the walls of Jericho were never knocked down by an invading horde of Hebrews.

You have to explain the reason. Otherwise we can't have a debate.