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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 09:30 AM
Original message
The Incredible Dangers of the Fetal Rights Movement
Edited on Wed Apr-07-10 10:20 AM by Lyric
Abortion foes and choice advocates alike—take heed. There is a frightening interpretation of the law happening in America—something that threatens the liberties and lives of all women, regardless of whether or not they support or oppose abortion rights. This dangerous philosophy is the notion that a fetus has rights separate from its mother, and that lawmakers, physicians, and medical policymakers can choose to place the best interests of the fetus at a higher priority than the rights of the woman whose body is bearing it, regardless of the wishes or consent of the mother.

We all know that there is a beloved cultural legend involving the selfless woman who, facing a choice between her own life and the life of her fetus, chooses to die so that the baby might live. But what if that woman didn’t have a choice in the matter? What if someone else arbitrarily decreed that the life and health of the fetus MUST take precedence over the life and health of the mother? What if being pregnant automatically meant a subversion of civil rights and liberties on a scale that America has never known before, including the loss of the right to choose whether or not to take medication, have surgery, or even to take a hot bath? Pregnant women are dangerously close to living under precisely these conditions—all it would take to achieve such a travesty of civil liberty would be an extremely short slide down a very slippery slope.

Consider the case of Angela Carder, a pregnant twenty-seven-year-old cancer patient in Washington, DC. Carder, her treating physicians, and her family all agreed to pursue care that would keep Angela alive as long as possible, but did not wish to undergo a c-section delivery of her 25-week-old fetus. Concerned about the effects of cancer treatment on the fetus, the hospital convened an emergency hearing to determine the rights of the fetus, and elected to force Carder to undergo surgical delivery against her will, despite dire warnings from her attending physicians that such a delivery would likely kill Angela. Both the fetus and Angela died as a result of the procedure. Although a federal judge later ruled that the hospital was wrong, the fact remains that Angela Carder and her baby are both casualties of the fetal rights movement. http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/articles/angela.htm">(The Angela Carder Case)

In 1978, a man named Robert McFall, who was suffering from a bone marrow disease, sought a court order to force his cousin David Shimp to donate bone marrow. Mr. Shimp was the only compatible donor in McFall’s family, and had refused to donate of his own will. The court, while recognizing that Shimp’s refusal was morally repugnant, nevertheless refused to grant the order, stating that forcing a person to undergo a medical procedure for the benefit of another would “compel the Defendant to submit to an intrusion of his body” that “would change every concept and principle upon which our society is founded”, and that such an intrusion would “raise the specter of the Swastika and the Inquisition, reminiscent of the horrors this portends.” The court established firmly that no person can be compelled against their will to do something that benefits another—and yet, when women are forced to undergo medical procedures and surgeries against their will, this is precisely what happens. http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/lawmcfall.html">(McFall v. Shimp)

Another sad case is that of Gabriela Flores. Flores was sixteen weeks pregnant when she took a medication commonly prescribed for gastric ulcers, hoping to induce a miscarriage. When Flores miscarried her baby, she was arrested. South Carolina prosecutors initially hoped to charge her with murder (and seek the death penalty) but had to settle for the charge of inducing an illegal abortion—a law that was never meant to punish women, but only to protect them from back-alley abortion providers. Flores spent four months in jail for having a miscarriage, only narrowly escaping a murder charge, which would have carried the death penalty. (SW) The death penalty for taking a legal medication that caused a miscarriage? It’s a dangerous precedent. Ibuprofen is a common medication that can harm a fetus. Taking a hot bath can harm a fetus. When we recognize the notion of fetal rights, how close are we to sending pregnant women to jail (or possibly executing them) for taking a couple of Advil and soaking in a hot bath to relieve a backache? http://socialistworker.org/2005-1/544/544_02_GabrielFlores.shtml">(Gabriela Flores)

One might argue that Ms. Flores’ case is different because she intended to harm her fetus, but we only know this because she voluntarily admitted it. But what if she hadn’t confessed? Is there any other way to know with 100% certainty whether a woman intended to harm her fetus or not? In a world where fetal rights are secure, another slide down that slippery slope would be to take measures to ensure that pregnant women cannot involuntarily harm their fetus. Imagine girls and women forced to endure years of education about EVERYTHING that can potentially cause a miscarriage--women who then cannot claim that they “didn’t know,” and thus are fully prosecutable whenever a suspicious miscarriage occurs. Imagine laws banning pregnant women from riding horses, doing certain exercises, taking baths, or taking medicines that might harm the fetus—even if these medicines are meant to preserve the mother’s life or health. Imagine pregnant women tied to beds and forced to undergo medical procedures and surgeries that could harm them or endanger them (and prosecuted if they refuse or flee), all for the sake of securing the right of the fetus to live. It's already happening! Just ask the Nigerian woman who was tied to a bed in Chicago and forced to undergo a c-section delivery against her will. The woman refused the c-section because she intended to return to Nigeria (where another c-section would not be easily available) and was concerned about uterine rupture during a future delivery. None of this mattered; the woman was shackled to her hospital bed, screaming for help, and FORCED to undergo a c-section because her doctors declared that her fetus' rights were more important than her own. http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/main/publications/articles_and_reports/could_you_be_forced_to_have_a_csection_1.php">(Nigerian Woman)

If fetuses are granted rights, then even a staunchly pro-life woman who very much WANTS her baby could find herself charged and imprisoned if she accidentally does something that harms her fetus--or worse, could find herself living as a virtual prisoner because the safety of her fetus takes legal precedence over her own civil rights. This is an issue that has repercussions that reach far beyond the debate about abortion rights. When legal fetal rights are recognized, the constitutional and civil rights of pregnant women nationwide are removed from the equation, and pregnant women lose the protection of those rights as a matter of course. If we value the civil liberties of women, we need to oppose the legal recognition of fetal rights.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. The only possible good I can see coming from the "fetal rights" movement...
Is that pregnant women will be able to drive in the carpool lane even if no one else is sitting in the car.

Oh--and I guess it will be illegal to jail a pregnant woman, because that would also entail the unlawful imprisonment of a pre-born person.


Other than that, the entire movement is dangerous bullshit.


K/R x 1,000,000
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. K and R
Yep, women and girls are nothing but 'ovens.' And if you think this culture cares about this 51% of the population, go research rape and how few of these dudes spend time in jail.

The world views women as low class beings...animals garner more respect (ie Michael Vick).
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. yes, the Vick story makes quite a statement when compared with numerous pro-athlete rape stories.
OK, I'm getting too angry.... gotta get off the computer.....
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Anger can be a good thing.....
but I know what you mean.

When I feel anger, I know an Injustice is occurring.
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. How long before sperm are protected as "potential life"? I know it sounds ridiculous and
unrealistic, but these lines being drawn seem entirely ridiculous and unrealistic to me.
..."Mr. So and so, was put to death today for pulling out during ejaculation and murdering the baby that would have resulted had he not committed this heinous act..."
..."Ms. Such and such was put to death today for not fertilizing her unborn child..."
All these anti-choice bastards can put their energy into forced fertilization clinics.
They'll say: "Can you believe that girl has been menstruating for 6 whole months and STILL isn't pregnant? Why, I was pregnant before my third period at the age of 14.. She'll never have the reprductive satisfaction of 15 kids, like my dear mother who passed at age 30."
I know it sounds silly, but, using the anti-choice extremist propaganda, it makes perfect sense and is only a few easy, simple steps away...
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. It doesn't sound ridiculous at all, especially considering the rightward
direction that the Christian churches seem to be leaning. They're hoping for a theocracy someday--one in which "onanism" will probably be severely punished. I'm not sure how they'd punish a woman for ovulating and "wasting" an egg, but they're creative. I'm sure they're up to the challenge.

*sigh*
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. The answer to this is simple.
I have no problem with fetuses being people. I believe they are alive at conception, and abortion is killing a human life.

I just happen to think it's OK to kill such people.

I think it's silly to try and hide behind the argument that "it's not a person".

Fine. It's a person. But it's OK to kill some people at certain times, and this is just one of those times that society has said it's OK to kill someone.

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Excellent point.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. This is not about whether or not abortion is acceptable or not.
This is about fetuses having established, legal rights--and the danger to ALL women that such rights would represent. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with abortion--you can be 100% pro-life and still end up in prison if your fetus has legal rights, all because you did something that might have caused or contributed to a miscarriage.

The fetus-worshipers don't tell people this. They don't want to talk about the horrific long-term consequences for women that the establishment of fetuses as legal people would bring about. If the whole country turned against choice overnight and abortion were outlawed tomorrow, if EVERYONE agreed that abortion is morally wrong and the whole argument just went away, legal fetal rights would STILL be incredibly dangerous for women.

It's not about abortion. It's about the civil rights of women.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. To many, it's also about the life of an unborn person.
It's not about abortion. It's about the civil rights of women.

The problem here is that to many people an unborn baby is still a person.

Trying to argue over when a person becomes a person is a futile exercise.

It's far easier to say, "Yes, it is a person, so what?"

There are many people that we have decided have no legal rights and that it is OK to kill.

Unborn people will be just one more to the list.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. And to a vast number of others, it's a constitutional privacy issue.
Edited on Wed Apr-07-10 10:53 AM by riderinthestorm
This is a medical decision between a patient and her doctor. And nobody else gets to be in the middle of that, all emotionality aside.

Arguing fetal viability isn't productive, imho.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. That also is not a valid argument.
This is a medical decision between a patient and her doctor. And nobody else gets to be in the middle of that, all emotionality aside.

This is only true if you don't believe that the unborn is a defenseless person who needs an advocate. For example, if a mother kills her born children, surely you would not argue that no one gets to be in the middle of that.

Arguing fetal viability isn't productive, imho.

I agree, which is why I say it is much easier just to say that a person is a person at conception, and to simply say it's OK to kill certain people under certain conditions.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. "Trying to argue over when a person becomes a person is a futile exercise."???
Edited on Wed Apr-07-10 05:58 PM by uppityperson
Look at this ( ) . Can you see the picture of the life sized fertilized egg between the parenthesis?

How about this ( ) . It is now a week after fertilization.

Are either of these a "person"? How do you define "person"?

Is it futile to say there is a difference between
this:
( )

and this:


and this:
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ehrnst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Precisely - you can't give equal rights over the use of one body to two entities.
not logically possible.

So you either give the rights to the woman OR the fetus.

Any PL crap about giving the fetus "equal rights" has no basis in reality. They are putting fetal rights ahead of the woman's rights to the use of her body.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. While I agree with you in theory, I take exception to the way you phrase it.
A fetus is not viable on it's own, so it's not a person - it's a parasite. The host's rights trump the parasite's.

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The problem with that approach is...
The problem with that approach is you cannot define when viability happens, and with advances in medical technology, the point of viability is constantly changing, going earlier and earlier in the unborn's development.

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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Until the fetus can survive independently of it's host, it's a parasite
I don't like the term parasite. I prefer fetus but for all intents and purposes, it's a parasite.

The host has the greater right in that case.

You are right, the point of viability is certainly an issue, and a changing timeline depending on technology, but it's in the range of 25 weeks +/-. We know that the fetus' lungs are simply not developed enough before that to survive independently.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. But what about after that time?
What about after 25 weeks?

I just refuse to get into a discussion about "when is a person a person". By couching abortion in terms of "well, it's OK because it's not a person" opens up the door to abortion not being OK if it is a person.

Avoid the whole issue. Say it's a person at conception.

Now it's just a debate over who it's OK to kill. Much more clear-cut.
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Mojeoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. God Loves Women as Much as Men, We are NOT ovens, vessels, or the Holy Grail
I also believe that the fetus has person-hood. I also believe that if

anybody on earth gets to be reincarnated, it's the aborted.

When I was a kid, the Catholic church taught me that aborted unbaptized babies go to "Limbo."

Now the church says there is NO limbo?

Americans accept collateral deaths everyday. Children and pregnant women

are killed by our drone bombs all the time.

Has the Anti-Choice movement condemned the bloodshed in the middle east?

If they have it's news to me.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. We are after all, only objects to serve men -
first to provide them sexual pleasure & second as vessels to carry their precious seed. :grr: :grr: :grr:

They have already tried to pass this shit in Colorado. What is truly stunning, is that it even gets enough signatures to get on the ballot! How can even fundy women think it's ok to put the rights of a potential life above the rights of a living, breathing person? Honestly, how do you reach someone who believes this? :banghead:

Never in my youth did I think this country would come close to the horror of "The Handmaid's Tale."

Lyric, thank you for this very critical post. I wish I could rec it multiple times.
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Neurotica Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. I heard a teenage boy say a fetus takes precedence over the mother because
a 40-year-old woman has already lived a full life!

My husband and I were standing in line for a restaurant, and this boy behind us was saying this to his mother. My husband had to restrain me!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R FOR CHOICE.
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. young women don't think they'll need abortion, because of all
the birth control available today. I think that is why they don't care about it.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
20. Roe v. Wade itself recognizes fetal rights separate from its mother.
Hence, the increasing restrictions during the second and third trimesters.
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. When the gay gene is discovered and isolated
these fetal worshippers will suddenly shut up.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. This has always been my primary objection to anti-abortion laws.
Edited on Wed Apr-07-10 07:50 PM by OnionPatch
A fetus having the same rights as a fully-developed person brings up all kinds of scary questions in my mind. Will there be a murder investigation and uterine inspections each time there is a miscarriage? How can conservatives, who want to keep big government out of their lives, not get this? It boggles my mind.
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Neurotica Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Isn't this the case in El Salvador?
The NYT magazine had a cover story on this several years ago. Great reporting. I have it filed somewhere.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
26. I'd K and R this 1 billion times if I could.
What will it take to truly HUMANIZE women and put these fucking christofascists and conservatives and authoritarians down a shit-clogged sewage pipe where they belong?

ok, I have to get off the computer now... too damn angry.....
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