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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:11 PM
Original message
Housing Crashes Again (This time, it's NOT the subprimes.)
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney04152010.html


A World of Pain Ahead

Housing Crashes Again

By MIKE WHITNEY

The brief period of stabilization in housing appears to be over and the next leg-down has begun. Mortgage rates are edging higher, foreclosures are on the rise, and the government programs that supported the sector, are being phased out. The uptick in bank-owned properties (REO) is adding to surplus inventory and pushing down prices. A recently released report from First American CoreLogic shows that "distressed sales accounted for 29 per cent of all sales nationwide." Nearly one-third of all home sales are distressed REOs. Also, according to a report from Clear Capital, "Home prices nationally have dropped 3.9 percent quarter to quarter, the first quarterly drop in nine months. (Thanks to Diana Olick, Realty Check, CNBC) Bottom line: More people are being forced from their homes, the banks are facing bigger losses, and the housing market is on the skids.

The Obama administration's Home Affordable Modification Program (HAMP) has largely been a bust. Of the 3 to 4 million potential modifications, only 170,000 homeowners have successfully converted into a new mortgage. Under the new "principal reduction" plan, borrowers will be able to refinance into a FHA loan if lenders agree to slash the face-value of the mortgage. This puts the government on the hook if the homeowner defaults, which will lead to heftier losses for Uncle Sam. One of the main sticking points with the new program has been second liens, which are the home equity loans that were made using the mortgage as collateral. Falling home prices have made these loans essentially worthless, but the banks have resisted writing them off altogether because hundreds of billions of dollars are at stake. Even so, the four biggest banks have signed on to the new program hoping to stem the surge in foreclosures. Here's an excerpt from an article on Housingwire that shows how desperate the banks are to stop the bleeding:

"Two major banks are expecting major increases in foreclosures, by the end of 2010.

"According to the Irvine Housing blog, Bank of America, which currently forecloses on 7,500 homes every month will see that number rise to 45,000 by December 2010.....

“JPMorgan Chase is forecasting bigger foreclosure numbers in the coming months. According to a presentation at the end of February, JPMorgan expects the amount of real estate owned (REO) properties in its portfolio to reach between 33,000 to 45,000 in Q410. By comparison, in Q409, REO inventories were at 23,100." ("Big Banks Prepare for Major Rise in Foreclosures Ending 2010" Jon Prior, Housingwire.)

Bank of America's 6X increase in projected foreclosures is a real eye-popper. It suggests that housing prices (particularly in California) have quite a bit further to tumble. This will effect everything from private consumption to state revenues. It's a disaster.

Worth noting is that subprime defaults are largely over, and that, the new wave of foreclosures is made up of option ARMs, primes and Alt As. Many of these are high-income individuals who are using "strategic default" as a way to cut their losses and walk away from what has turned out to be a bad business deal. In fact, the data show that well-heeled homeowners are almost twice as likely to default than middle or low income people. So much for moral hazard....
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. This was predicted
by the finance forum I've frequented for about a decade since the beginning of last year (this summer it's supposed to begin toppling).


We ain't seen nothin' yet.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'd love to know what your finance forum is!
/
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Will send you a pm
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you so much
I am going to take a look.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Could you do the same for me? Thanks!
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. Me too! Always looking for knowledge.
Thanks.
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nilram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
60. ditto on the forum link, please
I quite actively follow this stuff.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. Try visiting our Stock Market Watch thread in LBN every day.
Also the Weekend Economist Thread, Fridays thru Sunday in Editorials.

There's a lot of good articles put up there every day on this and other subjects. Most of it over that last couple of years has been on the money.


On another note, I'm happy my 81 year old dad closed on selling his house in South Carolina today. He's coming down here to Florida to stay Sunday. He had no mortgage, and found a buyer who would pay what he paid for the place 6 years ago. But, they never had the big real estate boom in his area. He didn't have to close until the first of the month, but the buyer wanted to close earlier. I told him to close as fast as he can, and he can stay with me until he moves into his retirement community on the first.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. That's great for your dad!
My husband's parents were damned lucky--they sold their Annapolis home in 2007 for an outrageous price and paid cash for a very small home here in FL. They also sold their sailboat (which cost more than our house, ugh) just before the Lehman Bros. crash which had been on the market for 6 months (?) or so. If they'd waited any longer they'd probably still be stuck with it or living on it, LOL.

It always makes me nervous when parents make those big changes, but if they have good family they'll get through it just fine.
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Naturalist111 Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
48. The derivatives was, is and always has been the problem.
When all this started the total amount for payoff of defaulted home mortgages was 70 billion. Not 1 trillion. This is smoke screen (B.S.) to cover up the real culprit for the collapsing of our economy.
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nilram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #48
61. +10
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. k-
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Due to when the option ARMs reset, we knew this would continue through 2012
Plus it is mostly in CA, AZ, NV and FL where you can make a decision to walk away from a bad investment. In other states it is not so simple to do a "strategic default" without declaring bankruptcy.

The last Schiller-Case report showed housing prices increasing in CA and in several other states. Still going down in NV, though.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Definitely still going down in my area of FL
Jacksonville.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. Tampa Bay area too.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. In case you haven't seen this, Map of Option Arm Misery
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thank you for this map. California is being decimated.
Good god. What's the time frame on some of this stuff?
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That was posted 4 Jan 2008
by BusinessWeek and was used quite a bit on the forum I pm'd you about.

It's like watching exactly where Hurricane Katrina will hit and knowing just how bad things really did get. This is why we decided against getting a home equity line of credit in the summer of 2008 (we almost did, thank goodness we decided against it!). Being able to make some of those decisions helped us keep our neck above water to survive dh being out of permanent work for over a year (although barely).
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. I am going to join your forum.
It's good to have that kind of info in advance.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Interactive map from New York Federal Reserve
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. +1 superb resource nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Thank you for this
I appreciate it. It looks terrible, though
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Criminy
This writer needs an editor
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. TPTB
will probably try to do whatever they can to keep the economy looking hopeful until after November 2010.
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The Northerner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. +1
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. If you're just coming into the know at this juncture, then yes it looks really awful.
If you've seen the signs and followed the right places, you've hunkered down as best you can to ride the storm (can you tell I'm from FL, LOL!).

There's a lot of positive things moving, too. I'm cautiously hopeful.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Can you give me some insight on a couple of things?
I have a friend (an ex, actually) who just bought a house in the DC area (Virginia). He took a job with a contractor and bought a house with a big mortgage. My fear is that he will be upside down on his house if this happens. He's somewhere near Fairfax, I think.

I am in Southern California and just waiting this damned thing out.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. DC is the complete opposite of CA
Except for higher real estate prices, because of the low unemployment due to the concentration of government and gov't dependent contractors they are doing pretty well. They are experiencing some pain, but nowhere near the degree as where you are and the housing prices will ALWAYS recover. They always bounce back more quickly than other areas experiencing recession.

BTW, DC=greater Beltway, NOVA, etc.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Well, I feel better for my ex then
He bought a house and it was a little steep for him, but he said he'd never be able to afford a house like that again once the prices went up. I am glad to hear he won't be out on the street.

California is just awful. I can't even tell you how bad the news is here. I get the feeling we are going to be completely remade in the next couple of years.

One other question: I have a friend who is moving with her husband to Arizona. She doesn't mind the heat and he has a better opportunity out there. They're going to the Phoenix area, not sure exactly which town, but they tell me the housing prices are lower there. However, the place looks bad on the map. Does Phoenix look that bad?
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Sorry, I don't know anything about that area.
But if it's followed the same type of sprawl as a number of other cities (and I suspect it has), then it's probably bad and they'll want to rent for a long time.

BTW, now is a great time to buy in DC--many people who never could afford it before are able to buy if they have a job. My sister lives just south of there in Fredericksburg, the DC sprawl has moved all the way down there and prices have sky-rocketed. They are hoping to move further south to avoid the congestion.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. How far is Fredericksburg?
So you think my friends going to Phoenix should rent for the next year or two?
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. It's the last stop on the VRE.
About an hour fifteen minutes on the train to Union Station. By car it's about the same due to traffic which is INSANE.

I'm of the belief that anyone moving to a completely new city should rent for at least a year to get a feel for the area.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. That sounds like LA sprawl
We have people who travel 2 hours to get to work due to distance and traffic. What's further south than Fredericksburg? (I assume a lot of people take the train in.)

I guess what my friends thought is that with prices so low it was better to buy than to rent.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Stafford County
then you get into the outer-Richmond area. My sister's sons are both special-needs (one Aspy the other with CP) and nearly all of their doctors and therapies are in north Richmond/Richmond. Her husband is co-owner of a business in F'burg so they can't completely leave the area, but it's become a traffic and shopping nightmare! It's absolutely beautiful, however. I used to canoe the Rapidan/Rapahannock rivers and at least they haven't moved (although the rivers are down so low).
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. So the sprawl ends somewhere in Stafford then?
Pardon my lack of knowledge of the area, but how far is Fredericksburg from Richmond? I always think of Richmond as the way south of the state.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Yes, pretty much.
F'burg is just up I-95 about an hour and a half or so.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Trying to get the geography in my head.
I wonder, it seems like Fredericksburg to Richmond is like LA to San Clemente (Southern Orange County) although the LA metro area is actually very large. I think LA metro extends to the high desert (the 14 fwy) to the border of Orange County, and that may be an hour an a half all by itself.

I am trying to find stuff on Phoenix but it's hard. I'm really relieved about my ex in DC. He's a good guy and we've been friends a long time now.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. Note also that both VA and MD allow "deficiency judgements", which tend to reduce foreclosures
In other words, if a house foreclosure sale nets less than the mortgage balance, the lender can come after the borrower's other assets or wages in order to get the difference still owed.

A borrower cannot so easily walk away from an underwater property as in states like CA, AZ, NV or FL. In those states, a first mortgage for purchase money is non-recourse, so there was less risk to the borrower to speculate on a house for a high price. And as soon as things went south, those homes rapidly went back on the market, rapidly depressing prices.

However, there now seems to be some renewed action with investors setting up pools to buy up bank-owned houses, do some cosmetic improvements and flip them to new homeowners. Be careful out there to make sure titles are clean, etc.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Good information.
Thank you
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. DC has been flat for a few months
Per seasonally adjusted Case-Schiller report, DC peaked with an index value of 252 in April 2006, dropped to an index of 169 in March 2008, pulled up to 178 in September 2009, and stood at 179+ in January 2010.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Any predictions for the next 6 months?
Thanks
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Most of the C-S metro areas have a shape similar to DC
Minneapolis, Boston and San Francisco have come back off the lows the strongest.

Chicago, New York and Tampa are showing signs of a mild double dip and trending down mildly in recent months.

February data should be out in a few days.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. C-S?
Thanks
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. "C-S" = Case Schiller home price index.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Thanks
Is there a link?
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Here's the link
http://www.standardandpoors.com/indices/sp-case-shiller-home-price-indices/en/us/?indexId=spusa-cashpidff--p-us----
S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price Indices

Standard & Poors makes you register to download the Excel spreadsheets from the links at the bottom of the page. Then you can do your own analysis instead of just relying on the MSM's fanciful interpretations of the press release.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Am I reading this right? Did Las Vegas really tank this year?
The other places don't look nearly as bad.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Yes, Las Vegas really tanked this year -- it was still declining later than other cities
Seasonally adjusted, Las Vegas peaked at an index value of 236 in April '06. Since then, it slid to 104 in January '10, with a lot of the decline this year. Of the 20 cities, Las Vegas has the greatest decline from the peak -- off 56%.

Phoenix is off 51%, Miami is off 47%, Detroit is off 43% and Tampa is off 42%. But Detroit is different in that it's peak index was longer ago in November 2005, and not the more typical spring/summer 2006.

Dallas is off only 5%, but there was no price boom in Dallas since the index series started in January 2000. It started at 100.75 and is at 119.6 in January 2010.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Thanks.
I'm going to take some time to read this thing.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. One small caveat...
the housingwire article was discussed a few days ago (but it's already expired in my DU or I'd link). One real estate professional who had some insightful analysis pointed out hat the 7,500 - 45,000 figure probably referred to the number of properties BofA would have to release onto the market each month, rather than the number they plan to foreclose on.

Due to their purchase of Countrywide they are apparently sitting on a ton of distressed property right now but have been resistant to selling because doing so would require them to mark down the loss, while as long as they hold a property it can stay on the books at the value of the original principle.

Of course, a large sell-off would just lower prices and encourage more people to walk away from their underwater house, so it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. I have been looking for a starter home for the last 6 months but the market in the Bay Area has almost ground to a halt and there's a sense of a large inventory/price change...so although I was annoyed with myself last year for not moving a bit earlier, now I'm glad I waited.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Thanks. Question
Not all areas are the same. I have a friend that just moved and bought a house in the DC Metro area. He is carrying a large mortgage. I am worried about him and wondering how that area will do. I know that where I am, Southern California, has a lot of foreclosures.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
49. I have no idea about that...we just discussed the west coast situation. Sorry.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. That's ok.
Thanks anyway.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
20. 60 minutes did a story about this in 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kunB4SnAh4g

On top of that, Elizabeth Warren says the commercial real estate market is going to collapse which could bring down small banks and small businesses with it.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latest-news/elizabeth-warren-warns-about-commercial-real-estate-crisis-downward-spiral-small-businesses-local-banks
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks. I like Elizabeth Warren.
.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. She reminds me of my oncologist...
every time she walked into the room my blood pressure would jump, but I knew that she would never bullshit me and that she was on my side.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Oddly enough, that's a great compliment.
I wish the Obama administration would listen to her instead of their Wall Street donors.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Same here...
I wish she would take Geithner's place. I never trusted him because he's one of THEM.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Yes he is
and crooked as they come.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. A lot of small bank CEOs were lending to their golfing buddy contractors and developers
So, yes, a lot of community banks will be taken out by the FDIC in the next couple of years.

Properties that are economically viable will get refinanced.

McMansion plantations 50 miles out in the desert will probably become ghost towns. But there have been ghost towns before.

The large and regional banks have plenty of money to lend. There just aren't creditworthy small business borrowers to lend it too. ("creditworthy" = "can actually pay it back when due")
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
63. That's awful for people who believed those small banks were safe
...
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
43. Contrary to what pretty much everyone has been willingly brainwashed into believing...
Subprime was never per se the issue. That's just where the issue was *seen* first.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:27 PM
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45. Rec. nt
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