"And I can prove it"

Over the last 6 months or so I have done a lot of travelling to Calexico, CA recently hit by the earthquake shared with its sister city across the border, Mexicali.

Frequently, to save time, I will sit at the counter at the diner to get faster service and invariably will sit next to a couple of 'good ole boys' and we get talking about politics. Generally these have been hard working guys that have been listening to Rush all day and have gotten worked up about the 'direction of the country'.

Now most of them don't have a lot of time or education and are just frustrated about working twice as hard to get half as much - I think many of us can share that frustration.

In person I can get somewhat 'overinvested' in a conversation and because, like most of the folks at DU, have so much more facts than the average Joe, can quickly overwhelm the argument. Quite a few times this has resulted in this guy getting angrier and more frustrated while I spend the next 3 hours on the road congratulating myself for being so uncreative that I couldn't find a way to communicate to someone that hasn't had the educational opportunities or world experience I have been lucky to have.

Through trial an error however I have found a simple device that has worked very well in keeping the angry conservative engaged and got him thinking about his assumptions.

I simply make a simple declarative statement and then add "And I can prove it".

For example this dialogue has been repeated several times almost verbatim:


Angry White Guy (AWG): The government has never done anything better than the private sector and has never done anything effective in health care.

Me: "Actually in a mixed system like we have many times the government is more effective, and our government has been extremely effective in health care and

"I CAN PROVE IT".

AWG: (Thinking and wondering what the hell can be proven is quiet for a minute) "Like what and how you are going to prove it".

Me: "Well I have talked with about a dozen folks who said the same thing and they all had to agree after a minute of thinking about it, it wasn't true."

"So let me ask you a question, 'What has been the greatest health risk to the human race over the last 12,000 years. This one single disease has killed more people than war?"

AWG usually answers with heart disease or cancer.

Me: "Small pox" Small pox killed about 500,000,000 in the first 60 years of the 20th century alone. Yet today we have no small pox? Why? the US Government. CDC eliminated small pox in the US and then worked with the WHO to eliminate and now their is no more small pox".

When you eliminate, for pennies on the dollar, the most deadly business in human history you have to agree that the agency that was responsible for it was effective and quite frankly people who say that the US Government doesn't do anything well are just spreading Anti-American propoganda that isn't based in fact,

Would you not agree, Sir?"

So far, in every case, they agree and it is clear that they were left wondering what other right wing truisms were also no longer supportable.

k&r

Let's see if I have this right:

Number of people saved by the government with just one disease: 500,000,000
Number of people killed by the government using fictitious 'death panels: 0

in the US. army doctors, air force doctors etc. And all those vaccines, many of which were developed by the government to protect our troops and /or dependents going overseas.

Good Post.
Thanks.

There are many more examples where the government has out-performed the For Profit sector.

CDC/WHO although Malaria has been significantly reduced it is having something of a comeback

http://health.howstuffworks.com/12-deadly-diseases-cured-in-the-20th-century.htm/printable

Because the neo-liberal policies force governments to lay off public health workers and cut spending on government sponsored advertisements used to ensure that people were not breeding mosquitoes in their backyards. Further, said lay offs mean that there re no workers to clean public drains where mosquitoes breed, and no one monitors public health in communities these days. Even the community clinics are gone. I speak with knowledge on this one - malaria is back in Jamaica because of neo-liberal BS.

but don't forget the mosquito's amazing ability to genetically mutate in relatively few generations to resist any pesticide we spray its way...

It's regularly cleaning out, rotating, or covering standing water (horse troughs, agricultural and sanitation water catch cisterns) ensuring that pool water and fountains have proper circulation, using minnows or other bug and bug-egg eating fish in standing or slow-circulation water-features (backyard ponds), and in wetlands, increasing the population of gnat-catching birds, fish and amphibians like lizards and frogs/toads.

Haele

And while you're at it, please define the term.

They point to Chile under Pinochet as their great success, but those reforms came at the point of a gun. Business had free rein, but the people were oppressed. Pinochet did not completely buy into the total deregulation of the markets, so we don't know if pure neoLiberalism would have worked in Chile. Naomi Klein Goes into great detail in "The Shock Doctrine."

They also point to the success Thatcherism, but fail to mention the 9% unemployment.

Iceland was a NeoLiberal country, and it is now a bankrupt country because the business community robbed them blind.

Mexico has adopted many free market reforms.

I checked out the Wikipedia definition of 'neoliberalism" (intentionally didn't check out neoconservative) and what I read sounds a hell of a lot like the right-wing/neoconservatives that think the free-market is god's gift to mankind.

They paint it as this benign model - the only game in town. It destroys everything it touches.

With the neo-cons you're dead, your family is dead, your community is dead and your ecosystem is destroyed, often for generations.
IOW, the neo-cons openly endorse using the armed forces to help them plunder (google PNAC), neo-libs prefer the CIA and other covert operations (google John Perkins, Economic Hitman).

They're both neo-fascist and even oblique support of either is a great shame.

People seem to be able to grasp the concept, and understand their place in the system, better.

neighborhood are gone now but they left a huge pile of old tires laying on the side of the road - once it rains they will be breeding grounds. They have been there for almost a month now. No one seems interested in moving them. Little things like that make an enormous difference.

It sure isn't true in Jamaica. The return of malaria on our island is directly linked to economic and social policies.

Man, that was a great comment about small pox, grant.
One of my favorite aunts got polio as a kid in the 30s and although her case wasn't bad, she walked with a gimp for the rest of her life.
So, when we cured polio, she thought the government programs that lead to the cure were great.

But, she was still a Republican. Tried and true, blue clear through.
However, not even she voted for Bush in 2000.
I was really surprised when I found that out a few years later.

So, not all of the Republicans turned into Bush supporters.
A whole lot of them are disgusted by the Tea Bagger's tactics going after Obama like they are today.

I hate to say it, but if the GOP doesn't do something soon, they are going to go the way of the Whig Party.
And no one liked them by the time they finally broke up.

but a damned good post otherwise.

K&R

I always enjoy throwing the good old U.S. Post Office back in their faces too. Most people use the Post Office as an example of how BAD government-run services are, but if you bring it up FIRST, you can totally turn their own assumptions on their heads. Here's how you do it.

You just ask the person, "When you have a bill that needs to be paid, or a birthday card for your mother, or anything else that needs to be delivered, where do you take it?" They will tell you they drop it in the mail. You reply, "Why? Why don't you take it down to UPS or FedEX?" They probably won't have an answer, but you can soldier right on. "For 44 cents, the government-run postal service can get your letter to its destination, whether it's down the street or to the other side of the country, usually within just a few days. Meanwhile, for the private sector delivery services, you'll probably pay upwards of ten times that amount to deliver the same thing, and it won't get there for weeks. So much for the private sector doing everything better, cheaper, and more efficiently."

I have YET to get a single, intelligible refutation of that point. I've had thought-fragments sputtered out at me angrily, but nothing that ever made any sense.

By far. I have spent months at a time in Canada. There were times that I got home before that mail got where it was going. We take our post office for granted.

I was Postmaster here for years and it takes (usually) up to four business days to get to either East or West coast from SK. Overnight mail option, Express mail - either overnight or guaranteed two to three days anywhere... Our postal service is getting expensive, but the service and speed is still good, I wouldn't trade it.

Sorry you had trouble with it.

Everyone in Ontario seemed to complain about the mail service them.

Post Office as an example

However when the Post Office tries to close a rural branch because it is no longer feasible they cry like little children.

The fedex rates start at around $10.

I also tend to ask them to provide me with one example of a service formerly provided by the government which costs them less or provides them with more service since it was privatized. I have yet to have on come up with an answer. I have gotten, on occasion, some crap about how inefficient the post office is compared to Fed Ex or some such nonsense. To which I reply, "It is good there is a choice like Fed Ex when you need it. But it will cost you at least $10 more to get it there in the same length of time and they still don't go everywhere. Aren't you glad there's a choice to still use the US postal service?"

How do you get your UPS or FedEx bill delivered? By the United States Postal Service.

Even if UPS or FedEx makes a daily pick-up and drop-off at your business, they still find it more economical to mail their bill to you rather than have one of their carriers deliver it.

Great argument. Will use this one. Thanks.

KICK!

:hi:

Reading that I could just picture those rednecks with their mouths hanging open, droll dripping down into their soup.

"So, you say that the “private sector” can be trusted to facilitate the greater accessibility and affordability of health care. Really? Like, the “private sector” that outsourced well-paid American tech jobs to Asia in exchange for lead-painted children’s toys? Or, the “private sector” which knowingly distributed autos with exploding gas tanks, defective SUV tires, and Salmonella tainted peanut butter; or, the “private sector” that perjured itself regarding the dangers of cigarette smoking; or, perhaps, the “private sector” that devised “sub-prime” mortgages and mortgage-based derivatives; or, the private sector that gave us the scandals of Enron, WorldCom, Bernie Madoff, etc.; or, the “private sector” that used government subsidies to acquire more of its own shares, rather than explore alternative sources of energy; or, maybe, the “private sector” that used government “bail-out” funds to award $ Billions in bonuses to failed financial executives; or, possibly, the “private sector” that denied coverage and claims for life-preserving procedures in favor of multi-millions in CEO compensation?
If the “private sector” had wanted to make health insurance more accessible and affordable, they could have done it years ago, sans any government requirement to do so. However, they chose not to, which is why applicants, willing to pay premiums, have been rejected for “pre-existing conditions”, and others, simply unable to afford premiums rising faster than their annual salary adjustments. Whenever the “private sector” fails to meet a public need, “government” must provide the solution."

copied and pasted for my next email reply to my uninformed relatives who live by fox "news"

you totally rock. i need to remember this argument.

:applause:

And will use this myself in future.

You are far more patient than I am. But then, I've never really encountered one of these yahoos.

On the other hand, I do encounter quite a few privileged, well-off douchebags who think they pay too much taxes. Oy.

:)

Especially for engaging them with reason rather than disdain.
The best thing about your method is the next time you see them you'll have another big juicy fact to hand them. There are plenty of examples of how government has aided their citizens, some even since 1980 AFTER Reagan began the anti-American propaganda and shifted government to back to feeding on the working class (although he started it in CA before then), however quite a few facts will come from the New Deal.

Thanks for sharing, bookmarked and added you to my buddies to keep an eye out for future ingeniousnesses. :headbang:

creation? I green jobs in the beginning stages of bubble-up, but has so much money been stolen that we workers will continue to watch earnings diminish and jobs disappear.

when she starts in on Faux talking points.

Just have to shut her down immediately with a rebuttal, a strong affirmation that "I can prove it", followed by hard copies of sources (she doesn't "do" the computer) delivered within a week.

I really wish she wouldn't be so challenging and "in your face" about politics. I've tried for 20 years to simply NOT have political convos with her but she can't let it go.

with a Big List of 'And I Can Prove Its.'

I get so frustrated with these dudes that I end up saying, 'I bet you're so happy that there isn't a law against being stupid.'

I'm long gone before they get it. Of course with 3 states allowing concealed weapon carry with NO permit, I just might get shot in the back one of these days.

As long as I don't see it coming and I'm dead, I won't mind. Don't want to be taken to a hospital and the last of my pittance taken by those greedy turds.

All funded through government programs.

And the moment that some conservative points out that maybe ohhhhh.... Bubonic plague actually killed more people in the past 12,000 "and we didn't need no dern guvimint to survive .... then that teabagger who curse "those darn liburls " who fooled him once again.

The way to win over hearts and minds is with passion and real facts. Rhetorical tricks and outright misrepresentations don't work because frankly the opposition will always be better at that.

but cleaner streets, organized by governments, got it under control. Hello? Modern sewage systems?

Small Pox killed far more than the Bubonic Plague.

The Plague had three pandamics that killed millions the worst being the Chinese breakout which killed 12 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_(disease)

Small Pox on the other hand was not a pandemic but a consistent disease that killed an average 2 million people every year


During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths.<9><10><11> In the early 1950s an estimated 50 million cases of smallpox occurred in the world each year.<12> As recently as 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year. <12> After successful vaccination campaigns throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the WHO certified the eradication of smallpox in December 1979.<12> To this day, smallpox is the only human infectious disease to have been eradicated.<13>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_pox

If you combined all of the pandemics for the plague together you would be hard pressed to get to 100 million deaths while the most conservative figures for small pox in the 20th century (and it was cured by the 70s) is 300 million.

Small pox was by far the world's greatest death machine even outstripping armed conflict. It is just surprising that this clearly objective fact is not well known.

If I'm not mistaken, one "cures" a person who has already contracted a disease. So we can "cure" someone who has pneumonia by giving them antibiotics, or "cure" someone who has cancer by subjecting them to chemotherapy or radiation or surgery.

But in terms of smallpox and other similar scourges, isn't it actually more accurate to say that those diseases have been eradicated?

While this may come across as nitpicky and pedantic, I think in fact pointing out that the disease itself has been essentially eradicated is an even more powerful statement. I'm not sure that we even have a "cure" for smallpox should someone come down with it, but what we have done is simply wiped the disease off the planet for all intents and purposes. And without government policies and programs, including NGOs working with government funding and cooperation between governments, that simply would not have been possible.

The argument can be made that the research leading to effective vaccines against and treatments for various diseases may be funded by private enterprise (usually drug companies) but much research is also done by government-funded research facilities at public universities and university medical schools. However, the implementation of public health policies -- everything from mosquito abatement to massive and universal inoculations -- can only be done through government.


Tansy Gold

The more misunderstood point is that Small Pox was by far the greatest killers of homo sapiens for the last 12,000 years and how it was eliminated.

you rock!

many of them don't relaize that the government provides healthcare and the same people are actually using medicare, the VA or medicaid. It's also nice to know that the fire deparment might put out your house fire free at the point of use (we pay taxes to the government).

go for health care? Walter Reid military hospital...

and a treasure for DU

that the Bubonic plague was the greatest health risk to the human race and killed far more people then small pox . Your second mistake is that due to a bumbling American government it took almost 20 years after Jenner came up with the small pox vacine to even start inoculations . Spains King did a far better job eradicating small pox then the American govenment did so maybe we should be under a monachy .

smallpox throughout history has killed more people than the bubonic plague. We still have some outbreaks of bubonic plague in this country from wildlife; however because of government programs regarding sanitation, etc.. bubonic plague is contained-also if treated in time not fatal.

Most european countries have parliamentary governments, including Spain. The government of any country is as good as their leaders. And, when you have leaders who wish to "drown it in a bathtub", you have little hope for strong organization or social programs for the people. Maybe you think those global corporations (who are too big to fail) can provide better service to the people. Of course, those services will only come to those who can afford it (and since you probably believe that there should be no government control on prices), I guess those corporations can provide a shitty service and charge what they wish.

I'll take strong governmental services over being held up by for-profit, money over people corporations any time. And for the price, the postal service is excellent. I guess if the wacko profit vultures keep saying it over and over again, the zombies can repeat it on cue. Big business wants to take over every service that the government provides--pay slave wages, no benefits, make oodles of tax payer's money and provide shitty service, and there is basically no representation when you're screwed (who you going to call, your congress critter?). Look what has happened with * privatizing some services in the military. Soldiers electrocuted, served tainted water twice, unsafe food and now being poisoned by contaminated air. And those corporations that have building contracts in Iraq--some using slave labor (by gun point from places like the Philippines, and building unsafe structures) ALL WITH OUR MONEY!!!!! You let me know if you think a corporation can do it better than the government--I want to know your reasons.

by the most conservative efforts small pox has killed 10 times the number of people killed by small pox.

Go up thread and get the links or just go to wikipedia.

Small Pox killed between 3-500 million in the 20th century and it was eradicated in the 1970s.

the Plague consisted of 3 pandemics that were very virulent when they attacked but Small Pox was averaging 2 million people every year.

The person who designed and oversaw the world wide eradication of small pox was Donald Henderson a CDC employee who went on to work for WHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Henderson

The US is generally considered to be the first country to eliminate Small Pox


By 1897, smallpox had largely been eliminated from the United States.<53> In Northern Europe a number of countries had eliminated smallpox by 1900, and by 1914, the incidence in most industrialized countries had decreased to comparatively low levels. Vaccination continued in industrialized countries, until the mid to late 1970s as protection against reintroduction. Australia and New Zealand are two notable exceptions; neither experienced endemic smallpox and never vaccinated widely, relying instead on protection by distance and strict quarantines.<54>





The next time you enter the discussion to correct somebody on the facts take a few seconds to check your own and bring some citations because factually speaking you got nothing right.

that "smallpox has killed ten times the number of people than the PLAGUE." And, I agree with your statement. Also 15 count poster probably is a hit and run.

Since the right-wingers seemed to be so in love with the military you could point that out as something the Government does well. Sure there are a lot of private contracts but the government runs the whole thing, interstate highway system. You could even mention how the government managed to put a man on the moon.

knr!

the wingnuts I know would never agree the earth is more than 3,000 or 4,000 years old. So I'll have to modify it a bit. :)