So is the outrage really just because of racial profiling or is it because we don't want to deport

people who are here illegally?

I'm curious to know if a random checkpoint model would work with you all if it were based on say every 5th car.

If you are against intrusive government then are you also against the TSA program? Or being carded to buy alcohol?

They are not illegal.

A law not enforced equally does not exist.


So by buisness wanting their labor, and letting them live for years working, that sector made them legal citizens in my view.


There is an arguement that could be made on new illegals.

So if the SEC doesn't enforce security laws for say 8 years under George W Bush then it's okay to break them?

If the IRS doesn't enforce offshore income laws since Switzerland started unnumbered bank accounts is that law also moot?

It's such a slippery slope to say we can all disregard laws we do not see enforcement of.

Leadership starts at the top, and if people think laws will not be enforced they will not be followed, if the person has no moral center.

If a leader, like Bush did, strips all enforcement, he makes all laws become non existent, anarchy, total freedom for a certain class to do what it wants, and actually within there own group they then say they can handle problems by throwing them out of the group if they do not follow the secrecy of the group. But that is complicated.

You can make the moral arguement that people did wrong, but it becomes hard to prosecute, the only prosecution you can do is that 'doing what is ordered' is not an excuse for criminal action.

It becomes very hard to prosecute legitametly.



For there to be justice, laws have to be enforced. You can have selective enforcement, but that is to make targeted enforcement to just be used by people that have some power to begin that enforcement for there own reasons.


It is not justice.


So they are morally responsible, and by justice they did wrong, but because no laws are enfoced on that class, they don't worry about it at all, hence the laws do not exist. If the laws are now enforced, and they were told they would be, then they become culpible, and they have continued there behavior after being told that, hence why after not working with the SEC, they got charged with a crime.

You do make a good point about the fraud case, but they inherit the guilt for paying the lobbiest that are responsible for getting the laws not enforced, so they still are responsible.


So the wrong of having illegals, is the fault of the buisness that lobbied, and the politicians that did not enforce it. They are responsible for the issues it causes.

Is car ownership a requirement for citizenship?

If you don't drive, will you be deported?

What questions are you going to ask to determine citizenship?

Where were you born?

What will you do with US citizens who do not have their identification with them?

Are you going to card minors for citizenship?

Will children have to carry citizenship papers with them to school? Kindergarten?

Heck I have to carry around my medical card at all times along with my id

My Incapacitated uncle's HMO wouldn't accept his expired drivers license as an approved ID! We had take him to get a valid state id for which he needed a copy of his birth certificate.

When I went to get a professional license they made me show them two ids with my address.

Showing ID is a fact of life.

Why?

Maybe it's forged.

We'll keep you in protective custody while we verify your papers.

Here's some reading material while you wait:

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8222153&mesg_id=8222153

Look, I spent my entire youth watching propoganda films telling me that the US was superior to the USSR because we didn't do the "papers please" BS.

Now, my former state of residence wants to BECOME the USSR in the absolute control that they just handed their police over the citizenry.

I guess it proves that as a country we'll say anything at all to get what we want at the moment.

"Only in a police state is the job of a policeman easy." -- Orson Wells

Try to do ANY business with ANY government agency without your papers in order, see how far you get.

Try telling the next cop who pulls you over that you don't have license, insurance, registration in order.

We're already well past "papers please", we're at the point where it is so routine that most people don't even consciously notice that it is everywhere.

I made a reference to a series of youtube videos at lower in this thread. Watch them. It's good to see some of the BS getting called.

If I want to build a garage, I know I have to get a permit and other things from my local government. My neighbors and fellow residents have some interest in what I do with my property.

If I wish to drive, I understand I have to respect society's need to know that drivers are qualified (age, knowledge, vision, etc.) and have insurance to pay for my mistakes. I'm driving a 2,000 pound machine that can do a lot of damage to other people.

To me the question is not whether there are not some situations, like those you mentioned, when you should be legitimately expected to show your "papers", but whether we should have to show our "papers" in all situations - sitting in my living room, walking to the store, jogging on the bike path, hiking in the local nature reserve, etc. I, for one, am not so used to showing my papers that I wouldn't consciously notice it if the police stopped me while I was jogging and asked for my ID.

of course not. You don't know what it's like to have to constantly declare to some idiot just out of BP school in Georgia that yes, you are in fact a US citizen. Doesn't matter if it's the third time that week some idiot in a BP uniform has demanded this from you. Or if you want to go somewhere like San Antonio, & have to spend time at the checkpoint while they go through every car with a fine toothed comb, then have the BP agent ask you a ton of incredibly stupid questions to "prove" you can speak English properly, when all they're supposed to ask is what your citizenship is.

"Oh, well don't answer THOSE questions" you say, laughing...yeah, you try that sometime & watch as they send you over to secondary inspection & give you your car back in a shoebox.

dg

Dye your hair and wear blue contacts. They are only looking for black-haired, brown-eyed "aliens".
Isn't this the sickest thing ever? Soon you'll have to wear an armband that says US CITIZEN on it. Or maybe they will pass a law that all "legals" must be USA tatooed . That might wake up the masses.
Travelers...stay out of Arizona.

I'm white & I can't tell you the number of times some idiot BP assumed I was Mexican. Really pisses me off too, especially when the light dawns in their eyes as if they're thinking "Oh shit, she's white!" because then I know & they know they KNEW what they were doing was wrong, but they did it anyway. Fuckers.

They once tried to search my car because they didn't like my Kerry/Edwards bumper stickers & when I popped the trunk, their eyes about popped out of their heads because I had a lot of legal books in there. "Are you a lawyer?" "Yes, and do you want me to tell you exactly how many ways you just violated my civil rights?" "Move along."

dg

:applause:

My certificate is large, needs an 8x10 envelope, the copy cost $15 and took about 3 weeks to arrive. The copy is so hard to read that the registrar sent a note saying that this is as good as it gets, and if anyone has problems they should call their office. Great piece of ID that is.
Neither of my parents had certificates of birth, ever. Rural, long ago, poor people. Dad was in the Navy so he had some papers there, but proving Mom's place of birth not possible, and came down to word taken and assumptions made.
So you are supporting pointless shakedowns of random people, based on how they look. And that is all. If the point was to stop people coming without papers, the employers would be the targets, instead, they cash the checks. This is about hating Mexican people. And that is all it is.

...producing your birth certificate is another.

For most of us, the birth certificate is an important document that should be kept in a safe place so that it can be produced when required, such as to get a driver's license or passport. Note, those last two items are considered to be IDs and are made in a size that is convenient to be carried on one's person in a pocket or purse.

I will never accept a law that requires us to be able to produce our birth certificates on demand. It is ludicrous, invasive and un-American.

My birth certificate is on an 8-1/2" x 11" piece of paper and is notarized. It is not something that I want to fold. So carrying it around in a pocket or purse is out of the question; it also would not fit into my car's glove compartment without folding. Also, what about when I'm walking or hiking? And the birth certificate is a foundational document that I need in order to obtain other documents and IDs so I do not want to lose it. If I carry it with me, it is much more likely to become lost or stolen.

You may not mind, I most certainly do.

For example, a foreigner who has Resident Alien status in the U.S. is not a citizen, but is present legally in the country.

Never mind the alleged undocumented foreigners.

It's about what particular subclass of citizens you are going to harrass in the course of looking for 'illegals'

I am only checked if I choose to fly or to buy alcohol. I understand and accept the reasons why my society feels the need to do this. No one checks my ID to see if I'm 21, if I'm walking down the sidewalk nor should they. No one checks my bag or the contents of my pockets, if I'm driving to grandma's house nor should they.

I do not look forward to the day that police start stopping every 5th or 10th or 100th driver or person walking on the sidewalk and asking for their papers. If I'm driving, I need to carry a license. But if I'm out for a run or a walk and don't plan to buy anything, why should I have to carry ID just to keep the government happy? If my wife doesn't want to bring her purse, because I'm driving, she should be free to go without official government ID.

I used to laugh and shake may head at stories of life in countries where the authorities were always stopping people and checking their papers. Can't happen in the US. We have rights that others do not have. Sounds like the day that happens routinely in the US may not be too far away.

We could have every transaction accompanied by a check of ID then would you approve?

My point is that we are already intruded upon in countless ways. Yet we are only outraged now? Seems mighty convenient.

just like the RFID national ID card. Too many of our fellow citizens are sedated by God knows what. It's nice to see there is a point at which my fellow citizens roar, "ENOUGH!!!"

Mighty convenient? Nope, about damn time.

Your point is that if we are already intruded upon in countless ways, why worry about being asked for ID when I'm walking on the sidewalk or jogging on the bike path?

I'm not OK with having ID to buy anything. Why should I have to show ID at the grocery store or hardware store? If I'm walking to the store, I'll have ID with me because it's in my wallet with the money. If I prefer to take the cash and use that to buy something, why should I have to bring ID? What kind of society would detain me for walking to the drug store without ID?

Civics and government are no longer taught.

History is ignored.

And suddenly, living in a country that keeps the trains running on time seems like a pretty good idea.

You can still do illegal things by walking around after all. You can litter too. Or not pick up your dog poo.

I don't drink. Don't show ID to buy 'merchandise' at all, ever. Alcohol is a controlled substance, with legal restrictions upon who can purchase it.

I am completely, totally, absolutely against the TSA. I don't care who buys alcohol as long as they don't endanger others while imbibing. Any other questions?

Segregation was mostly before my time and yet I'm against that, too. Separate but equal? Hardly.

I am not outraged but

The police already, informally, have the ability to hassle anyone they want, for any reason they want pretty much with impunity. I really don't want any laws subjecting me to arrest if I can't produce my papers. I mean seriously. Who the hell carries a birth certificate around all the time - which is pointless since those can be faked just like any other bit of paper.

Even the Caucazoid-Americans in Arizona who backed this legislation don't fully grasp the law gives the police and the government powers to arrest and jail them how ever long it takes to produce proof of citizenship. -- and I can promise you, a good many of the old geezers who retired to Arizona could not produce a birth certificate if their lives depended on it.

Amnesty

Those businesses exploiting the undocumented immigrant benefit most when;
A) The undocumented are discouraged or punished for going to law enforcement/authorities for help.
B) Enforcement activities are focused on arresting the undocumented and not those who seek profits from exploiting their situation.

There is a reason the Right Wing is vehemently opposed to cracking down on those who seek out and hire undocumented workers. Sad part is the moment the current group of undocumented is given a path out. The profiteers will seek out replacements to continue the exploitation.

one nut tries to light his shoe ... EVERYBODY has to take off their shoes at the airport ...

And how much fun it is to have to answer citizenship questions every time you try to go to work across one of them.

A colleague of mine (a true libertarian) has spent a lot of time documenting this overreach of power:

http://www.youtube.com/user/checkpointusa

Welcome to the police state and weep. This new law brings "papers please" into the mainstream.

Thanks, "small" government "conservatives!"

demanding they declare what their citizenship is. Why? Because the little bullies can. They like to stake out the bus stops near grocery stores, the women's shelter, schools, and legal aid offices. But oh no, they're not engaging in racial profiling. :sarcasm:

dg

The point of the colleagues video is that away from the border, the BP can engage in conversation but legally could not compel you to answer without detaining you (which requires a legitimate
probable cause). Armed with lots of video cameras (more than is apparent, he's been threatened a few times) he refused to answer their questions. The levels to which they would push even where they had no legal right to do and under the eye of a camera which would not allow "he said/she said" stories is eye-opening!

After my AZ experiences, I'm just SURE the new law will NEVER be abused for any reason!

Your arguments make me truly wonder why you post on this board. This law is unenforceable bull shit and meant to placate the Republicans' base of Tea Party ignoramus racists. As I suggested earlier it would have been more effective to pass a law that all ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS must wear a distinctive clearly visible yellow bullseye at all times. That way anyone who isn't wearing the bullseye could be suspected of being an illegal providing the cops with Reasonable Suspicion so that they could choose to question those Brown People at will.

no, it is not the same as carding for alcohol.

police state in Arizona. And yes, I find the TSA program more than intrusive. I find it a total waste of tax payer money that could have been used to check on-flight cargo.

I don't think there should be any random stops.

I also think these a people on the bottom of the economic rung, just like the immigrants of old, but the immigrants of old were not subject to a law that cleverly kept them "illegal" so they could not stand up for their rights (or to make it harder).

I don't think they are qualified or responsible enough to implement the law fairly.

Secondly, the racial profiling and the fascist nature of the law are troubling. BTW, it won't just affect Latinos. This law can be used to inconvenience/harass anyone based on a police officer's whim.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

"nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The alcohol comparison holds no water. Being carded in a liquor store is not an unreasonable search and seizure.
It is also enforced equally among all people who appear to be under 21.

Two related questions:

Will European and Asian tourists at the Grand Canyon be asked to show their visitor visas or not?
Will people with Irish or Russian accents be equally harassed?

...who were born here, and who are minding their own goddam business are going to be hassled by the cops because they have brown skin.

How do you not get that?

We don't live in a police state.

Your suggestion addresses only a tiny part of the problem of how people are getting into the country illegally. But that's not the major problem that needs to be solved to stop illegal immigration. What's driving people to immigrate is economics. The problem won't be solved without an economic component to the solution.

they already have a system in place that may better suit you.

That is all.

go through TSA. And people get carded if they look underage regardless of what color they are.

I don't like this because it specifically targets one group of people. So it cannot be carried out without racial profiling.