They say they were offended by the five boys for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36981179/ns/local_news-san_francisco_bay_area_ca/

Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee shirts

and thats what really burns my hide.....
This is the United States of America not Mexico. If we were in Mexico today wearing those shirts then yes it would be disrespectful...but not here, not in our own country....we can wear our patriotism any day of the week and on any holiday we damn well please.

My great-grandfather, my grandfather and my father did not fight for their country and expect to have their progeny to be told they counldn't wear the flag of the United States of America on another country's Holiday.

btw...one of the kids is half hispanic.

these particular students were intentionally being disruptive and trying to provoke other students, then I can't argue with their decision. Maybe they know that there is already high racial tension, and don't want an incident.

thread, as long as the school is even handed and fair in enforcing proper dress and in defusing possible provocations from ALL the kids, then I can't quibble with it. They know their district and their students and the general atmosphere, and they may know what sorts of things will set off a fight or disrupt. Fights and disruptions do a disservice to EVERYONE, more so than not being allowed to wear a particular bandanna or T-shirt on a particular day. Schools aren't democracy--they are a learning environment, first and foremost.

From Tinker v. Des Moines:

"The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom--this kind of openness--that is <509> the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society."

"In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school," the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749."

wasn't just feared or anticipated, but real--these students most likely chose to wear something NOT just to express themselves, but to provoke a reaction from a particular group of students on a particular day. And they got it. I wonder how many of them called each other and planned to wear American-flag clothing on St. Patrick's Day? Schools ban the wearing of head-to-toe gang colors, too, from what I understand.

From all accounts they were sitting peacefully by themselves. If you mean they caused other students to have to confront unpopular or contrary opinions, then yeah - that's the point of free speech. And frankly, any school that tries to shelter its students from unpopular or contrary opinions is doing a gross disservice to its students, and to society.

as the kiddies got home, too. There is a limit to self-expression, in schools and in workplaces, etc., when it causes disruption or hinders the learning or working environment. Maybe this school overreacted, or maybe they know what will happen if they let this sort of thing play out during the school day. Maybe they're tired of pulling kids off of each other, and retaliation. My sons' school has a real problem with racial tensions, and I have warned my kids to watch what they say, mind their own business, and stay out of the fights. I am less concerned with their ability to express themselves, more concerned with their grades and their progress (and their safety).

That they caused a disruption? It seems like you are just assuming facts to justify your opinion that they were bad and wrong.

to refrain from wearing their stuff. It sounds like the kids refused, so they were sent home. That all might seem unfair, or like an overreaction to the complaints, to an outside observer--but perhaps this school has had similar trouble at other times, and is trying to protect the learning environment and the other students' safety. I give schools some leeway to handle this.

Because they so often end up abusing it out of convenience.

The Supreme Court is clear that schools may not ban speech simply because other students or administrators don't like it. If the principle had more specific reasons to send them home, then he has an obligation to explain his actions and correct the situation, because an environment in which students cannot express their opinions without causing a riot is unacceptable.

I haven't seen a source for this. Can you provide one?

did. Here is their press release:


MHUSD Official Press Release Regarding May 5th Activities Top of Page
The Morgan Hill Unified School District does not prohibit nor do we discourage wearing patriotic clothing. The incident on May 5 at Live Oak High School is extremely unfortunate. While campus safety is our primary concern and administrators made decisions yesterday in an attempt to ensure campus safety, students should not, and will not, be disciplined for wearing patriotic clothing. This matter is under investigation and appropriate action will be taken.

Didn't Mexico win independence from France on May 5, 1862? How are American flag clothes even relevant, much less offensive?

What bugs me about this kind of thing is the hecklers' veto. Those with the minority viewpoint are the ones expected to shut up.

but reality is much different.

May 5th to Mexicans is like Bunker Hill to us. It's an overcoming of occupiers.

(Much like if the Iraqi's defeated the US in a city like Basra today.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo

Mexican Independence Day is Sept 16th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grito_de_Dolores

French intervention in Mexico

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_intervention_in_Mexico

Cinco de Mayo isn't really celebrated anywhere in Mexico except the state of Puebla because there had been a battle there in which the locals defeated the French who were occupying Mexico at the time. It didn't end the French occupation. People in the S.W. have adopted that date to Celebrate their Mexican heritage. It's Mexican-American St. Patrick Day.

Speech of some student, I want to see you saying that THOSE students "were intentionally being disruptive and trying to provoke other students", and defend the school district in that case.

schools aren't primarily a forum for individual expression. That's why they have dress codes, behavioral codes, guidelines for activities and curriculum. This particular school may have overreacted, but then again, we perhaps don't know the entire context or the whole story. If this school has had particular trouble between white and Mexican kids, then perhaps they kept a bad fight from occurring. I can't judge without knowing all the details, and being familiar with that community.

nt

People were arrested for it once upon a time. Wadding up a rag that resembles the flag and sticking it on your greasy head is not what i call respectful.

Not quite flag apparel pre se, but... you get the idea. :puke:

Every time I see this photo, I want to burn the sight out of my brain.

Personally, I find wearing or displaying the Confederate flag to be disgusting. But it is lawful expression protected by the First Amendment.

during school hours as being disruptive to the school.

Same thing.

These kids were wearing the Ts as a deliberate provocation to the Hispanic students. The only difference is, this would not be a provocation on any other day but on 5/5, which in itself shows it to be a deliberate provocation. They would not, and did not, wear these clothes on other days when it would NOT be provocative.

It is not so much about the clothes as about disruption of the school.

After all, the others students are Americans too, so it is no slam on them. And what is essentially political speech is protected by the 1st Amend. in public schools. Now if it read, "Mexicans suck" then it would be disruptive.

It may be that these four kids do this stuff all the time to get attention.

Eyebrow or lip piercings? Huge mohawks gelled to look like the Aztec Sun? Or are those just "forms of expression"? If they are, then wearing an American flag on your shirt could also be considered a form of expression that shouldn't be discouraged.

to redirect into something positive or else you're setting them up for a world of hurt later. Teenagers test boundaries, that's what they do. Adults need to help them figure out where those boundaries are.

agree with that. Cinco de Mayo is not a recognized holiday in this country. Therefore, it shouldn't be asserted that wearing the Stars and Stripes could be considered offensive on that day.

Celebrating the independence of a country by wearing that country's flag, while at the same time choosing not to live there seems kinda strange to me in the first place.

but culture. It is mostly celebrated here and not in Mexico.

This is the same thing as when one sibling tries to disrupt the other sibling's party by drawing attention to himself. That's what kids do. It has nothing to do with flags or nationalism, imo.

One can live in a foreign country and still be proud of one's own country.
Ask your expatriate fellow Americans. . .or ask our soldiers based in Germany, Italy, Spain, Iraq, Afghanistan. . . .

But I agree it is your right (and the right of these stupid kids) to be totally clueless and insensitive to others!

be offended by seeing the Stars and Stripes displayed. In sensitivity to those nationalities and cultures, the Stars and Stripes should be hidden.

I saw something posted in this thread that I thought was ironic: Those students who were sent home because of their offensive and provocative display probably had to walk past an American Flag on their way out the gate. They also probably had to see an American Flag during the time they were allowed to attend the school their parents pay for with tax dollars.

The outnumbered Mexican army defeated the much larger French forces.

Very well stated.

The school here is a government supported school.

Government interference in free speech is the worst offense to our First Amendment guarantees.

I wouldn't do what these kids do, but I defend their right to do it.

As I think you know, the U.S. free speech right goes much further than similar speech rights do in other countries, including our fellow Anglosphere countries of the U.K., Canada and Australia.

My guess is that the school's lawyers will have a chat with the teachers and/or administrators here, and explain the basics that those teachers and/or administrators should have learned in high school government.

Whether you like it or not, teachers shape behavior from the moment kids enter the classroom.

And defending oppositional behavior maybe legal but it's not helpful to students who will eventually have to make their way in a diverse world. These students have a right to wear those t-shirts but that's the least of learning how to live in a society.

As a teacher, my first thought was how many other times have these young men done something that resulted in a visit to the principal's office.

How do you know that? I didn't see anywhere that said they bought these clothes to just wear on that one day.

One of them said as much in the interview.

stand up for what they believe. Don't you?

Do you also disrupt weddings and birthday parties? :)

I don't view a T-shirt as a disruption, so long as it doesn't have obscenities on it.

How insecure does one have to be to view an American flag t-shirt as something offensive?

It's mildly surprising when adults defend them but only mildly.

My favorite comment from this flap so far is from the little Latina girl who pointed out she wouldn't wear red, white and green on July 4 because it would be disrespectful.

Apparently what we have here is a cultural disconnect between kids who think respecting other people is a value and kids who don't.

as Abby Hoffman, IIRC. And, it has been a part of the 'Flag Code' for decades, that flags and representations of the flag are not to be used as apparel.

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It
should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to
fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above,
the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a
speaker’s desk, draping in front of the platform, and for a decoration in general.

(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner
whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or
handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or
boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising
signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel,
firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag
represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the
lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Face it - the kids were wrong.

The Tinker case was decided long ago. Schools can't discipline the students or send them home in a case like this. I hope the parents sue the district. Because of the Tinker case the ACLU will probably take the case for an easy win.

Who was right: Nixon and his henchmen?

BTW: Before this goes any further, I have GREAT respect for the flag, moreso than MANY. I am infuriated when I see it in inclement weather. I went around to neighbors on 9/11-12 to tell some they were hanging it the wrong way on their doors (the "surrender" way).
Moreover, I stand and sing the anthem. And I have hand-written letters of thanks from Veterans' Organizations and one-time Marine Commandant Kelly for my contributions. I'm a PATRIOT.

But when the flag IS ALREADY in the form of a patch, a shirt, shorts, and cake decorations, it's a tad late then to worry about "desecration."

and I definitly don't like most flag apparel, there are specific ways to display our flag respectfully. However it is also not illegal (for civilians anyway) to display it like that, and this display was well within the student's civil rights.

So, you know, if you're as proud to be an American as you say you are, put your money where your mouth is, kid.

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Apologists?

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I'm saying a kid in a made-in-China American flag t-shirt isn't the best representative of what patriotism is all about, IMO.

a "Mexican" side?

But enjoy your outrage. :)

A pair of socks! :think:

lol

what is wall street up to today?

your ancestors fought for kids' right to wear flag shirts? Really?

My father joined the Marine reserves for the money, no idea of going to war. When we got into WWII, he considered deserting but chickened out and that's why he fought for his country. My grandfather was drafted into WWI, that's why he fought for his country.

But that's just my own ancestors. Who knows, maybe your people fought for the kids' shirts.

what duty and loyalty meant.

to each their own.

What branch did YOU serve in?

All while hiding behind his granpappy's skirt.

And you agree with him?

I'll take his uber-patriotism and lack of response to my question as an affirmation of my suspicion.


Loud-mouthed-Chicken-hawk.

nt

two uncles and an aunt fought for the U.S. and the Union.

Keeping their freedoms was one of the reasons that they fought, too.

Kind of like how the KKK is just honoring their proud Christian heritage.

Fuck 'em.

And I have no problem if their principal sends them home for drawing bigoted cartoons.

The ones who take it to the extreme and commit violence?

No. But I'm not going to cry any crocidile tears for the bigots either.

Are you one the side of the bigots, WinkyDink?

I sure hope not.

Looks like you're totally overreacting.

Considering your avatar is an affront to all the world's religions. It reminds me of a story I heard once about a pot and a kettle. R'amen.

No, it's an affront to Creationists.

Who are neither all the world, nor a religion.

But after several re-readings of the Gospel of FSM has made me realize that Pastafarianism is a mockery of all things religious. Mostly the Abrahamic religions. That's why I like it. And that's why your avatar amuses me. You of all people should know that mocking religious figures is a very important task and should go unfettered. There is nothing sacred.

heads to prevail is over-reacting.

Tu eres loco en la cabeza.

with very few restrictions.

It protects these kids and it protected you during the Bush and Reagan administrations.

The First Amendment doesn't pick and choose between whose views are protected and whose aren't.

The high school should prepare kids for life after school, where conflicting viewpoints are all over.

IMHO, it should not teach students that only the politically correct views of the day will be protected.

really represent him.
But if kids (or adults) purposely wore clothing to PURPOSELY offend a group, especially if it is a special holiday or event for that group. . .I would think the offending kids should be expulsed from that event!

Respect of others always works best!

but it is not the government's role to enforce whatever someone or anyone thinks is respect. In this case, it is the government in the form of a public school that tried to prohibit speech and expression that some might find offensive. The government just doesn't have that right.

The First Amendment allows people here to say what they want.

The near absolute guarantee is unique to the US as far as I can tell.

It keeps out in the open instead of underground, which is healthy IMHO.

or to be contrarian, or for any number of reasons. Regardless, it was a total overreaction. Just wearing the shirt shouldn't have been met with this. And assuming what it was meant for is pretty stupid. Who cares if someone wears an American T-shirt on Cinco de Mayo? I don't care if someone wears a Mexican T-shirt on July 4th. I don't automatically assume they must be a racist asshole bigot. But I guess you would.

But FIVE of them, probably standing in a group???

This seems like a purposeful attempt to offend and inflamme! Especially at this time!

At the least, those kids were stupid! At the most, they were looking for trouble. . .and they got it!

it would be an overreaction. If they were looking for violence, then no, but there is nothing in the story to suggest that. It looks like they were just being contrarian. Maybe they don't like the idea of celebrating a Mexican holiday in America. Who knows. It may be stupid, but it's not worth getting sent home for. It will only reinforce any provincial ideas they had before, not to mention by a rallying call for all on the right now.

They must be dead set against St Patrick's day, right???

And how about Easter? It's not an AMERICAN holiday, it's a CHRISTIAN holiday!

And if one doesn't like a holiday celebration. . . one just ignores it, or avoids it!

except I guess a good comparison would be if they were in a school that was 1/4 pure Irish, recent immigrant and very patriotic of Ireland. St. Patty's Day is definitiely an American holiday, and very inclusive. Cinco de Mayo is still pretty recent in the American psyche and becoming more inclusive and widespread, but it's still not as well known.

I agree with you on how they should've handled it, but how they ended up handling it was, well, immature. But that's teenagers.

We are not responsible for other peoples' feelings, and no one has the right to not be offended. This was a stupid move on the part of school.

Specifically problems involving bigotry.

So they were disciplined for it.

Case closed.

Your defense is that the Mexican students might have responded violently?

My response is that the bigoted positions of the students was inappropriate. And bigoted. Schools have policies against clothing and speech that causes problems (be it from causing distractions to starting hostilities, fights, etc.) and they've also got rules about bigotry and making the school a safe comfortable environment for all students, particularly minorities. So the school is simply enforcing those policies, and good for them.

If a student wore a T-shirt that said "niggers go home," would you still be objecting to the school disciplining that student?

Because that's effectively what these students are saying, minus the literal vulgarity.

"nigger go home"?

Wow...

So stop playing dumb please.

a burning latin cross as a symbol.

:shrug:

These were flag t-shirts, not "nigger go home t-shirts". Try to stay somewhere near the point.

Let's try a real analogy. What if a kid wore a t-shirt with a star of David on it to a Christmas party. Would the other kids be justified in beating that kid up? If they did, would you blame his t-shirt?

"Let's try a real analogy. What if a kid wore a t-shirt with a star of David on it to a Christmas party."

How about a kid who wore a swastika to a bar mitzah? Would the boy's parents be justified in sending him home?

*edited for lucidity*

Well, it's not really a talent.

for wearing t-shirts they don't like. I'd give them a little more credit than that, personally. In either case, this was a stupid move on the part of the school.

Is the only problem that you have with a t-shirt saying "niggers go home" a fear that one of those vicious black thugs might jump the poor innnocent black child?

I honestly don't understand you.

In the incident in question, it is the government, in the form of a public school, that is doing the "sending home."

The First Amendment keeps the government from "sending home" when the governmental entity, in this case a public school, decides what is "sending home" material and what is not.

Surely, you got some of this in your high school US history and government classes. It is basic Constitutional Law.

I might object if the school had a banner out front that said the same thing.

I'll bet there's an American flag in front of this school. In which case, the school shouldn't use that as an excuse.

You wouldn't object if it was a student wearing a T-shirt saying "nigger go home" and the school did nothing?

I would
(a) be MUCH more upset at the school than the student
and
(b) be very suspicious at the school for wanting to punish the student.

Why would you support a school that would put such a banner out front anyway?

It was your friend during the last administration.

Constitution fail.

Case still closed.

It's like that white supremacist who said that his license plate wasn't racist, and everybody knew he was lying.

It was the DMV's authority to determine his intent in that case, it's the schools in this case. And that's that.

Here is a helpful link. http://www.ncac.org/First-Amendment-Schools/student-expression

It is a good thing that the school intervene before what the kids were looking for (probably a fight) came to pass!

Obviously, you haven't travel abroad very much, either that, or you must have been considered as one of the "ugly Americans!"

You say people are responsible for their behavior, but apparently don't apply that standard to the Mexican kids. You imagine these flag-wearing kids being physically attacked for their choice of t-shirt, and place the blame on... the kid with the flag t-shirt.

And I have lived abroad, thank you-- part of that time in Mexico. You might want to leave the mind reading to someone else.

As I said: "ugly American!"

HFPS. It's not a normal occurance, but politics makes strange bedfellows.

to be so disrespect to fellow students. i would encourage them to embrace and enjoy the celebration with their fellow students.

and next on the list? yell about no school prayer. how unfair it is to have to sit next to a black. girls should not be allowed an education.

who wear any Mexican T-shirts on July 4th in summer school. I don't know, to me it just seems a great overreaction. It's not a big fucking deal, but the school sure made it one.

then I know your argument has failed.

that mexicans in this country feel? you dont get it? you need it spelled out? really?

i suppose the white male is being picked on too?

And to use that as a reason for this ridiculous overreaction is just a poor excuse. Americans are quite a diverse lot from all sorts of backgrounds, many of them Hispanic but not Mexican too. I think that Mexican-Americans should tolerate fellow Americans who wear American T-shirts on Cinco-de-Mayo in America. I don't think it is too much to ask. And I would expect the same from all Americans.

I don't know why you bring up white males. Mexicans mostly consider themselves white, and many pass for white much better than Europeans. Mexican-Americans don't have it that bad here at all, especially compared to other immigrant groups of the past. Perhaps illegal immigrants do, but that's not really a surprise. And most of the hardship comes from the economic struggles of new immigrants, not discrimination. Many live in majority-minority communities.

Plenty of white males feel injustices, discrimination, and anger. But it doesn't make them automatically correct or mean society should bend to their every want. That's just an excuse.

government.

It is really very libertarian in nature.

It protects the right to express any idea, and it particularly protects individuals from the government interfering with their expression.

At the same time, it prevents the government from forcing religion on you.

We also have equal protection in the fourteenth amendment.

Really, I strongly suggest that you brush up on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They are absolutely fundamental to our society.

From this thread, it appears that many DUers have no respect for our essential governing rules.

Time for a refresher course in U.S. history and government.

that has already been established. the schools set the rules.

do you know, the kids in a home does not have the same rights/ they do not get freedom of speech? reality.

Tinker remains a viable and frequently-cited Court precedent, though subsequent Court decisions have determined limitations on the scope of student free speech rights. In Bethel School District v. Fraser, a 1986 case, the Supreme Court held that a high school student's sexual innuendo–laden speech during a student assembly was not constitutionally protected. Fraser qualified Tinker in making an exception for "indecent" speech. Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, where the court ruled that schools have the right to regulate, for legitimate educational reasons, the content of non-forum, school-sponsored newspapers, also limits Tinker's application. The Court in Hazelwood clarified that both Fraser and Hazelwood were decided under the doctrine of Perry Education Association v. Perry Local Educators Association. Such a distinction keeps undisturbed the Material Disruption doctrine of Tinker, while deciding certain student free speech cases under the Nonpublic Forum doctrine of Perry. In Morse v. Frederick, the Court held that schools may, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at a school-sponsored event, even those events occurring off school grounds, when that speech is reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use. Mary Beth Tinker continued to support freedom of speech and demonstrated in front of the Supreme Court during Morse v. Frederick

This wasn't a student newspaper, or speech during an assembly, or promoting illegal activity.

Nothing in the text you listed disputes that.

And guess what? The ancestors of your beloved Ozzies didn't hug and kiss the Aboriginals when they hit Australia's sunny shores.

to inflamme an issue. . .they should be asked to leave!
If it was just a coincidence. . .and no bad intention. . .there should have been no problem.

But. . .I tend to believe it was a concerted effort to send a negative/aggressive message to the other students celebrating "Cinco de Mayo." Why would not 2, not 3, but FIVE kids wear the same T-shirt. . .especially with a flag (unless it is the 4th of July? Doesn't sound like a "coincidence" to me!


How would people feel if 5 Mexican selected to attend a 4th of July event wearing Mexican flags???

of these kids "how woud you feel if on Pearl Harbor day 5 kids wore shirts with the Japanese flag on them?" The defender stopped to think and said something to the effect of "I see that point". I was surprised.

That's more of an even comparison!

I'll give you a hint:

Bulgaria's Independence Day. And he was sent home because the Bulgarian kid was offended. lol

Again, the intention was anything but innocent!

I'm sure it's not a coincidence. But if someone is physically attacked for wearing a damned t-shirt, the problem is with the attacker, not the t-shirt.

is Mexican independence day. Good analogy. :thumbsup:

Maybe you can look one up and attach it with a little note.

If Japanese school kids in JAPAN want to wear t-shirts bearing the Japanese flag on 7 December who cares?

They have a right to push back against the event if they want. I can't believe how willing people are to simply stamp out criticism and dissent for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings.

(In the Mexican case). It was an overreaction. Kids do stuff to get attention and raise issues that are offensive all the time in high school, even through wearing stuff. This was not enough to send them home. It wasn't a big deal until the school made it a big deal.

How dare they wear a Mexican flag in Mexico on OUR holiday!

That's OUR day! Everyone around the whole fuckin' world should be wearing the red white and blue, or nothing at all! ;-)

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Obviously it is about the intent of those kids. . .I bet they wouldn't be caught dead any other day wearing "matching American flag t-shirts!"

And, alhtough there is nothing wrong with wearing a Mexican flag t-shirt (except for bad taste obviously) in Mexico on the 4th of July. . .if one wears it specifically to go to a 4th of July party for American in Mexico. . .I'm sure there would be the same reaction!

like this are not done... in fact, you'd see more people WEARING US Flags, with Coke and Pepsi logos though... than you'd see wearing of flags. In fact, a few years ago a singer violated the Flag Code and was fined by the Mexican Authorities. (The Mexican Flag Code that is)

by one's own stereotypes and bad will. You have no idea why the kids did it, or what it meant. But you have certainty, by god.

Do you think Fagerstrom is lying here?

I personally would not take that person's word. Especially considering that a couple paragraphs down one of the other kids admits that they did it to make a point.

All of that is besides the point though, as being an obnoxious brat is not against the law and the school should have let them be.

Does anyone here know these kids? Before I write them off as racist, I'd like something more to go on than just "they wore an American flag shirt to school on Cinco de Mayo."

"Yankee go home!"

you might well take offense - but you might better look for a secure place to hide. That is a not-so-indirect intimidation of a minority by the majority. You would certainly be on the defensive, at the least, particularly if Americans in a neighboring Mexican state were being routinely harassed by the police, and anti-American legislation was passed that not only allowed it but actually made such harassment mandatory.

Might be enough to make you feel not wanted there. Maybe even make you want to confront them and find out WHY they want to intimidate Americans who are living in Mexico. And with any such confrontation there is the chance of a hot word turning it into violence,

which is what the school was out to prevent.

But sure, enjoy your jingoist, nativist crap - it has a long history in the US.

By the way, they confiscated the girl's flag after she had gone the whole day without being beaten up. Personal smear noted.

showing the flag and saying 'we want to be here' and Americans showing the flag saying 'we don't want you here', then anything you may have taken as a personal smear I will stand by.

ANY symbol may be misused. It is generally accepted that the swastika is a symbol of hate - despite it predating the Nazis by 5000 years and being used in numerous cultures around the globe. The American flag is not automatically a symbol of hate, but when it is flourished by racists and nativists it becomes one, for those they target.

You might consider, in this discussion, what the first three of the 14 characteristics of fascism are, and see if they apply --

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

1 - flag symbols on clothes. Check

2 - disdain of human rights; the rights of Hispanics in America, and particularly in Arizona, are under brutal assault, and this is further RW pushback against Hispanic pride and celebration. check.

3 - Picking out scapegoats. See #2. Check.

This is not about free speech. This is not about shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater. It is about starting a fire in a crowded theater.

wearing the Mexican flag/colors?

http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/265404-five-morgan-hill-students-sent-home-for-wearing-american-flag-t-shirts

Couldn't the same argument be made that these students were merely being confrontational? Why weren't these students similarly sent home?

would be a July 4th celebration in a Mexican school, with several students wearing Mexican colors and flag attire.

I don't know how that would play out. Different country. Possibly different attitudes.

I do think making a big deal out of this situation probably created more controversy than just ignoring these boys would have.

It's time for gringos to get over that.

means sales on Old El Paso products in my grocery store in PA.

Christmas is just people buying gifts and trees.

New Years is just people getting drunk.

So is St. Patricks day.

Thanksgiving? Turkey.

Martin Luther King Jr. Day? Day off.

Veterans Day? Day off.

I mean, I was born on Guy Fawkes Day, and I'm Catholic, but do i think it sensible to call november 5 AN AMERICAN HOLIDAY????

I THINK NOT.

July 4th was a holiday originating in Colonial England.

Christmas is a Judean holiday.

St. Patrick's day is Irish.

Veteran's Day is based on something that happened in France.

And MLK Jr. Day is about African Americans but, like Mexican Americans, apparently they don't count.

In suburbs of Chicago where populations are mostly Hispanic, it is not celebrated much except for maybe some higher than usual beer consumption. Does this mean it is not a U.S. holiday?

it most decidedly is NOT A G*DDA*N NATIONAL HOLIDAY.

Sidenote: Having a middle name of Erin means very little. That's my middle name as well and I have not a drop of Irish in me.

I replied, for it is THAT post that declared the Fifth of May is a holiday in the United States.

It is not. It is a day celebrated by a sub-culture within the US, like Welsh descendants in Bangor, PA, might choose to whoop it up on St. David's Day (I'm part Welsh, too), or French-Americans in New Orleans singing the Marseillaise on Bastille Day.

I know full well we basically plundered and murdered our way to obtaining the SW U.S., but still....we are not Mexico.

AND WE HAVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT THAT PROTECTS THOSE STUDENTS' RIGHT TO WEAR THEIR OWN NATION'S SYMBOLS---OR ANY OTHER SYMBOLS COMMONLY CONSIDERED UNACCEPTABLE, E.G., THE SWASTIKA (spare me the digressive Buddhist stuff).

I am looking forward to hearing legal arguments that the U.S. flag in the U.S. can, at the whim of a school administrator, be deemed provocative and disruptive.

Will. Never. Stand.

How many links would you like? Is it a holiday because Mexicans say it is? Find me what state agencies consider May 5th to be a holiday of any kind. I'll get you started.

Oh by the way, in my opinion which isn't worth much admittedly, I find it strange to celebrate a country's independence by wearing its national flag, while at the same time choosing not to live there.

http://www.ftb.ca.gov/aboutftb/holidays.shtml

http://www.edd.ca.gov/payroll_taxes/State_Holidays.htm

http://www.dpa.ca.gov/personnel-policies/holidays.htm

http://americanaffairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/california_holidays_and_furlough_fridays_in_2010

List of National Holidays

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_the_United_States

Also- Kwanzaa.

Again, deal with it.

:rofl:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_day#Opposition_to_Columbus_celebrations

How do YOU feel about Columbus Day? As if couldn't guess...

nation then as there are no nationally recognized holidays for any other religions.

celebrating Marine Day


Then again on November 23 for Labor Thanksgiving Day, and also a big bash on December 23, the Emperor’s Birthday....


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I look forward to your complaints about the Irish celebrating that while living here in the United States.

Cinco de Mayo is not a celebration of independence, it's just a day to celebrate Mexican culture.

I don't notice people wearing Ireland's national flag on that day though, I just see them doing stupid things like wearing green underwear and drinking green beer.

Whatever the argument, I am disgusted with the notion that there could be a day in the United States where wearing the Stars and Stripes could be considered OFFENSIVE to anyone.

You're right, it's not a celebration of independence, but neither is it "just a day to celebrate Mexican culture".

Cinco de Mayo is a holiday held on May 5 that commemorates the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín. It is celebrated primarily in the state of Puebla and in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo

Lou Dobbs signed up for DU a few dozen times this morning.

IOW, in name only.

Cinco de Mayo isn't even celebrated much in Mexico. My family there certainly doesn't bother with it. It's a holiday primarily for Mexican Americans to celebrate their heritage.

And if you have want to see people break out the Irish flag, just watch the St. Patrick's day parade in Chicago.

Why is that?

groups. And when people DID hate the Irish, out and out hatred was more acceptable.

Again, I don't think the school should have intervened, but I think what those 5 boys were aiming for is pretty clear.

It commemorates a battle, not independence. Mexican Independence Day is in September.

People celebrate it if they like.

People celebrate St. Patrick's day, too, and it is not an offical holiday.

I'm part Irish and I celebrate St. Patrick's day.

But if someone wears a U.K. or Northern Irish flag t-shirt, or orange clothing, I'm not expecting the US government to make them stop.

I don't expect the government to get involved unless the orange-shirted person punches me. In that case, it is a simple assault and battery. That's it.

Why do you expect more for Cinco de Mayo?

it. Just as the other students have the right to stand up for their point of view.

It was a chance for both sides to learn about tolerance and respect. The principal blew it by sending the students home who were wearing the American Flag and apparently that is the decision of the school district also.

headbands and turning the t-shirts inside out. From what I read, he didn't make anything of the lapel pins. The students refused, so THEN he sent them home.

The principle has a responsibility to prevent disruptions in the school - and if the kids complied there would be no problem. This is on the kids' head, not the principle's.

What, in deliberately provoking Mexicans and Mexican Americans, is the lesson about tolerance and respect?

Which they did not in this case.

First Amendment trumps any disruptions.

Disruptors get to go home, not those exercising their First Amendment rights.

which is exactly the point.

They were deliberate disruptors. And they were not just five individual kids wearing the flag - they were an organized group, wearing the flag the way a gang wears its colors. The entire purpose was intimidation. That goes beyond the 1st Amendment.

the school didn't force those students who had Mexican flags painted on their faces and bodies to either remove them or go home.

http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/265404-five-morgan-hill-students-sent-home-for-wearing-american-flag-t-shirts

If I were the parent of one of those boys I would be filing a complaint and looking into a lawsuit.

...but this one would be even better.



Emperor Napoleon III's Personal Standard

because they wouldn't get it.

Or did the principal take them down?

the schools flagpole, FLYING THE SAME FLAG they were told was offensive, on their way out.

:argh:

and the great majority of them are surely Mexican-American.

Suppose five troublemakers decided to wear orange on St. Paddy's Day in Southie?? :shrug:

Nobody even thought about sending them home.

Was there a St. Paddy's parade there, for instance?

It's a very culturally and ethnically diverse city.

Most people don't take things so seriously that they get offended by someone wearing a flag, unless it's a Nazi flag or something equally horrid.

all the time

Tip of the hat to DU user NoNothing:

Really, though, it seems like many DUers want to join the thought and expression police.

What do they think kept the Bush II administration from closing this site, anyway?

The goodness of Cheney's heart?

If they had done nothing, the boys would have worn their shirts, thought they were very clever, gone home and that would have been it.

Then I can tell you all to take down your US flags, eh.

;-)

:)

those responsible for sending them home should lose their jobs imo

disgusting