can somene please update me on the Greek protests?

I know this has been brewing for a little while now but the media (I watch CNN) hasnt really paid much attention - until today. Basically they are in financial trouble and will pick the bones of the people to make up for it - and the people are not going along with this. ?

I notice a distinct fear and puzzlement in the commentators voices - Sanchez show is on now. My tv is not turned toward me for the video but just listening to the voices of the protestors in Greece and of the shit-scared Sanchez.

Could this ignite protests of the same around the world?

If so, This is what the PTB fear the most - the rise of the other SuperPower. Not condoning violence for those that will jump down my back accusing me of that in about 2 minutes.

Guess which one they picked?

These are strange times, and those people in the streets are not Americans. Some serious trouble might go down soon by people outright rejecting the deal their government made on their behalf. Some people care when you steal their wealth and future from them to help out the rich

The country I live in is giving 32 billion euros of taxpayer money to Greece. That is money that I, most definitely not a banker, pay. It's really more a question of "screw the greek civil service worker" or "screw the german taxpayer." They ended up splitting the difference, but apparently even that is too harsh. Am I really supposed to work until I am 67 so that Greeks can retire at 50?

The German taxpayer shouldn't give one euro to Greek. Why aren't the Germans in the streets protesting? This bail-out has to stop.

Besides, Germany has a 40 billion euro problem of its own:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100506/bs_afp/germanyfinanceeconomytaxpolitics

and the people who set the game up where this can happen? the politicians and the bankers, rather than retired postal workers?

Not familiar as I said, but its pretty standard to have us fight each other instead the fuckers that put us in positions like this.

but I dunno. :shrug:

The US financial crisis may have resulted from Bankers playing games that, if not illegal (I'm frankly unclear on the law)were at the very least unethical and stupid.

I think, however, that it is a mistake to look at the European crisis with an American lens. The problems with the southern flank of the Eurozone are primarily political problems, problems that result from corruption and lack of transparency on the part of government. They aren't really about bankers, or loans. Other than that Greece needs money, and people really aren't sure (rightly) that they will ever pay it back. That's why Germany has to pony up cash, because it really doesn't make good business sense to sink money into a manifestly failing concern. I don't blame banks or their shareholders for charging for risk. I don't lend my own money to junkies, I can't expect others to do it for me.

The Greek government lied about its finances. Pretty much everybody (certainly the Greek people, but also to our shame, the German government as well) knew this. This isn't surprising. You can extoll the nobility of the Greek worker all you like, but the fact is that Greece isn't a Rechtstaat, but is a democracy- ultimately the lack of rule of law, the corruption, and the rest can be laid at the doorstep of the Greek electorate. Either through action or inaction, they are collectively responsible for this.

There are plenty of problems with capitalism and bankers as a class. But this one is going to be difficult to shoehorn into that schema. This is more a case of greed, cupidity, and political immaturity.

workers are the ones that get the short end of the stick while the upper crusts, whether it be the financers or the government or whoever hides behind those curtains, get to play their games with peoples lives in relative safety.

The U.S. electorate then would also be responsible for the illegal war with resulting mass murder under the reign of George Bush - whether it be a case of 'greed, stupidity or political immaturity'.

Not liking the way you are segregating Greek people as being especially stupid and corrupt.

I'm not singling out Greek workers as being especially corrupt at all. I wish greece were an anomolous situation. Unfortunately, it isn't. Greece may be the worst of the lot, but the problem stretches throughout the section of Europe that fronts the mediterranean, including Portugal, Spain, and Italy.

The tragedy is that Greek workers aren't particularly lazy. Quite the opposite. Having lived in Portugal and Germany, I can tell you that German workers do, in fact, a great deal less "work" than any of the labouring classes in Southern Europe. They get paid far better for less work as well. they may work more efficiently and more productively than Southern workers, but my feeling is that this is more due to educational differences and the inherently better rationalization of labour in the North.

I do assert that the working class, and indeed all classes generally, "steal" more from the state in the form of tax underreporting and tax avoidance in general. This is in marked contrast to Northern Europe, where government accounts are transparent, the free market is truly free, and the rule of law is well established. Calling this "stealing", however, is problematic. The states of Southern Europe are essentially kleptocracies- the state is in the hands of the well connected (not necessarily bankers, and not confined to the "upper strata" of society). Essentially, the state in these places is the enemy of the working class. This is the conundrum confronting those who wish to be progressive in countries such as this- an expanded socialist state is very often simply a bigger state that steals more. Taking Portugal, the xample that I know best, all the parties cover a spctrum that would be considered extremely "progressive" in the United States. The more left the party is, the more it steals. The PCP and the socialists are the worst of the lot. I wish this meant that the "right" (such as it is) were honest. This is not the case. They simply steal less. When confronted with this situation, cheating on your taxes becomes understandable. Morally commendable even.

Getting back on the topic, I think Americans, having a relatively honest and transparent political system (stifle the laughter, please, I think in fact that , bad as it is, you may not know how lucky you are) and being familiar with the latest drama of fiscal catastrophe, where the villains were the financial class, are mis-identifying the IMF and international "banksters" as the bad guys here.

Greece has cooked its books. The government there has spent far more than it took in in tax revenues and has committed far more than it is capable of paying, for benefits and other remunerations to state workers- and the state sector being as bloated as it is, this isfar more consequential than it would be in the United States, where the state is small, or in Germany, where the state is big and the benefits are similarly generous.

One of the reasons that the German government can do this is because its taxation is extremely high. And not just of the rich, the amount of "rich" in Germany is very small. I'm a teacher, and when you add in VAT, income tax, health insurance, and all other spending that I'm mandated to do by the state, my taxation rate is well over sixty percent. I'm not complaining, well, not too much, as I do get a lot fo value for that money- good health care, a decent retirement plan, free university for the kids, If I had had any, etc.

The only reason that Germany can pull this off, however, is that it has a high tax base and an exceptionally clean government. Greece has neither. Part of this, as I mentioned earlier, is understandable. Greece has a culture of patronage, clientelism, and corruption which makes rational choices of individuals different than they would be in Germany (and in fact different than Greek immigrants to Germany make when they are here). Nevertheless, Greece is in fact a functioning democracy, as is Portugal. The peoples of those countries must accept responsibility for their bad choices. They can vote to change the system, or they can vote with their feet, as I did.

What is unacceptable is to hold the rest of Europe, the Europe that lives under the rule of law, as a financial hostage to the puerile governmental shenanigans of those who don't. It is also unacceptable to engage in violence, or to romanticize those who do. Wether you are "liking it" or not is really irrelevant. The first necessity in dealing with this problem is too approach it realistically, and to correctly diagnose the roots of the problem, which are problems of political culture as well as finance.

The average retirement age of Greece is 65.

Greece to keep retirement age at 65 - minister
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSATH00544920100504

There is a lot of propaganda floating around that's targeting the workers in Greece. Making them out to be lazy cheats who get paid money for nothing and retire early, when it's just not true. On one hand they have a corrupt government that ran their country into the ground, and on the other they have numerous articles in the media coming out saying they are lazy, retire early, etc, in order to justify enforcing these austerity measures that will screw them over and let the people actually responsible slide.

toward the Greek protestors. typical tho, hardly a surprise - the media is linked across the globe to protect the 1%ers from their comuppances.

Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms

On the eve of an International Monetary Fund bailout deal that is sure to call for deep sacrifices here, including harsh austerity measures, layoffs and steep tax increases, many Greeks say they feel chastened by the financial crisis that has pushed the country to the edge of bankruptcy.

But even so, changing things will not be easy. Experts point out that ducking taxes is part of a broader culture of bribery and corruption that is deeply entrenched.

Mr. Plakopoulos, who supports most of the government’s new efforts, admits that he and his friends used to chuckle over the best ways to avoid taxes.

To get more attentive care in the country’s national health system, Greeks routinely pay doctors cash on the side, a practice known as “fakelaki,” Greek for little envelope. And bribing government officials to grease the wheels of bureaucracy is so standard that people know the rates. They say, for instance, that 300 euros, about $400, will get you an emission inspection sticker.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?scp=1&sq=greece%20taxes&st=cse


It seems to be a cultural trait to view the government as the oppressor. When Graft, Corruption and Entitlement converge you have a public finance system in chaos.

Let's see... country in deep financial crisis. Government cutting services and raising taxes. Middle class screaming because they're going to have to give up their benefits and pay more?

Does this sound familiar to anybody?