Greek rioting is a Euro version of our 'no tax' crowd

A huge underground economy prevents the Greek government from collecting taxes. Greece has a very small economy with a very large public sector which accounts for about 40 per cent of its GDP.

Tax cheats

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?scp=1&sq=greece%20taxes&st=cse

'That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.

Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.'

'The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all.

Such incomes defy belief, said Ilias Plaskovitis, the general secretary of the Finance Ministry, who has been in charge of revamping the country’s tax laws. “You need more than that to pay your rent in that neighborhood,” he said.

He said there were only a few thousand citizens in this country of 11 million who last year declared an income of more than $132,000. Yet signs of wealth abound.

“There are many people with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year,” Mr. Plaskovitis said, which is about $15,900. “You cannot heat this house or buy the gas for the car with that kind of income.”

Comparisons to the U.S.

http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/flowchart/2010/5/5/what-washington-needs-to-learn-from-greece.html

'There are, in fact, big differences between Greece and America, which makes it easy to refute direct comparisons. Greece has a huge underground economy, a dysfunctional tax system, and a nepotistic public sector that makes American-style crony capitalism look virtuous. By western standards, Greece's economy is uncompetitive and its workers are overpaid.

But there's also an alarming similarity between the two indebted nations: Both are run by feckless politicians who seem incapable of addressing problems of their own creation.'


How they're planning on catching tax cheats,and why the country is in chaos

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/greek_tax_ax_cuts_to_bone_sxoH3tXCghQSELYnw365sM

'Athens is also dropping a sledgehammer on tax cheats in the country's infamous underground economy. The new laws forbid cash transactions above $2,000 at businesses, requiring they be paid with checks or credit cards under the threat of seizing shops for violations.

Athens also will start paying whistle-blowers a 10-percent bounty on all cash recovered from tax cheats and clawbacks from secret banks abroad.
What's more, Greece's notorious tax breaks are being abolished. Lawyers and taxi drivers, for example, are among the self-employed who'll have to forfeit their long-held income tax rates of as low as 5 percent. They'll now have to pay 40 percent on incomes above about $52,000.
Both the middle class and well-to-do are getting slammed with tax hikes right away. Any household making more than $82,500 will pay a 40-percent tax, and those with income over $130,000 will pay a new top rate of 45 percent, each amounting to a 5-percent jump.'

Don't like taxes? Of course not, who does? But they are necessary in a civilized society.

IMO it's another attempt of Bankster theft of the tax dollars many Greeks have already paid into their social services and pension funds.

I'm supporting the Greek People on this. :thumbsup:

A Greek tax cheat is no better than an American tax cheat.

I'm afraid we are heading towards the same unrest in the USA. Municipalities, local and state governments no longer have the revenue coming in to support the pay, pensions and benefits of government workers because the well paid private sector jobs have mostly been outsourced to China. In the USA, government workers have fared far better than those in the private sector because that's where the stimulus money went. Only government workers, entertainers, celebrities and those on Wall Street got raises last year. We need to tax those on the highest tier at 90% so that CEOs and Wall Street pay their share.

Geithner never should have been nominated by Obama because of his record on this, but those who pull the strings of Wall street wanted him pulling the string and determining regulation.

economic collapse was caused by people evading their taxes, which many did btw, is the excuse being made for the failure of Capitalism on a world wide scale. Iceland, no tax evasion by the working class caused their economic collapse, and next it is predicted Spain, and Portugal and Great Britain.

This 'blame it on tax evasion' is gathering steam and needs to be debunked. It was the same as the rightwingers trying to blame the total collapse of our economy on ordinary home-buyers here.

The truth is Capitalism has failed, mainly because it was not regulated and the elites of the world went on an orgy of greed, sucking the life out of any country they were operating in.

well said. Bravo and thanks.

The capitalist elites use words such as "entitlements" when they describe social security trust when the trust fund was pilfered by government to wage war, give tax cuts to the wealthy, corporate pork, and do many things that should have been paid by fair income taxes on all and they should be mostly on the rich who have benefited the most.

The tea party should be stomping their feet on the wall street bankers, and the corporatists instead of government. I do believe that the elites are worried about the potential of such activism.

it's working perfectly fine as it would without regulation. Which is the problem. Capitalism has to be regulated.

Let's regulate it the way Farm Credit and the USDA rural housing development program do.

NO profiteering on farmland and housing for human beings.

No turning, no speculating, no hustling, no swaps, no derivatives, no nuttin' for you, investors and profiteers.

Now there is effective regulation, but somehow I don't think the people arguing for "regulated Capitalism" have that in mind.

Let's try it out, shall we? here are my suggestions for regulations:

NO profiteering on food.

NO profiteering on housing.

NO profiteering on health care.

NO profiteering on communications networks.

NO profiteering on public resources.

NO profiteering on financial services.

How we doin'?

Just another layer to the biggest bank robbery in history.

something sinister in the wings, but hey, blame those greedy cheating greek postal workers.

feh.

and are trying to get the working class to pay for everything.

Their wealthy elite, like ours, caused this problem, do not pay their fair share, and the burden is being passed on to the working class.

And the working class is fighting back. The Ruling Class are very worried that other countries' working class may take some lessons from the Greek people. So, the NYT and the rest of the propaganda machine, will try to discredit them, without covering the real story. Because protecting the wealthy is what they do.

Let's have some names and some actual accusations of wrongdoing.

Arthur Andersen to their Enron and the exact thing happen - just this time to an entire country.

Obviously what Greece needs is a competent government that won't trust snake oil salesmen with their treasury.

Even 30% of retail sales transactions are off the book to avoid VAT (sales tax).

USA: 28%
Greece: 31.3%

If tax evasion is "virtually 100%" in Greece, how do they manage to collect 31.3% of GDP in tax?

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/48/27/41498733.pdf

the reason VAT is so popular is that it is almost impossible to evade.

I thought Greek working people evading taxes was the cause of the crisis? Yet the revenue figures deny that this could be true. If the working people are paying the regressive taxes - that is sure a familiar scenario - then where is the shortfall? And now the proposed solution is MORE privatization and MORE regressive taxation? Who is trying to kid whom here with this? People are seriously blaming the Greek working people for this mess? It is not even remotely plausible.

Funny how no one points out that if the working people are burdened with regressive taxation, that A) there is a greater need for social services, pensions, etc. and B) they cannot possibly be the drain on the economy or the cause of the crisis, since they are merely getting back the money they already paid in - the taxes that are difficult (for poor people and working people) to evade, as you say. The taxes on the wealthier people are, it would seem quite obvious now, quite easy to evade. This is one of the great dangers of regressive taxation.

If the regressive taxes explain how the Greek government is actually taking in more revenue than the governments in the more "advanced countries are, then it is absolutely impossible that "tax cheaters" is anything but a smear against the working people, and it is absolutely impossible that the working people are responsible for the crisis.

Every single point in these attacks on the Greek working people is collapsing in a heap of smoldering rubble after even the slightest investigation or examination.

It is shameful that American working class people - Democrats! - are spreading this vicious and poisonous anti-Labor propaganda.

they bring in tax revenue because while they cheat like crazy on their income tax they can't avoid the VAT. If the didn't have a VAT they would be in an even bigger hole.

It is irrelevant what the amount of revenue is if the expenses are bigger. Why do you think that the revenue is adequate? I can always spend more than I make - so can governments. That's what happened to the Greeks - they borrowed too much money.

A progressive income tax is a way to generate revenue from the wealthy, not the working class.

I the flat taxes are being paid, and the income taxes are not, that tells us that it is NOT the working people, not the people whose wages and benefits are being cut, not the people who are demonstrating (not "rioting," demonstrating) who are evading taxes.

We have been over and over this bogus comparison of governments to household budgets. That is a right wing think tank stunt tot use that argument.

If you want to compare a household budget to government, this would be a more accurate analogy:

Dad controls all of the money, but it is the kids who do all of the work and bring in all of the revenue. Dad then charges the kids rent, and sells them their food and clothing and charges them for heat - even though he also eats the food and uses the house. Dad also controls the kids' income, because he owns the plant where they work. Dad then lowers their wages and raises the rent, and when they can't pay, tells the kids they will have to work more or give up some of their food. Dad also might call in the cops if they object or try to resists and have them roughed up a litle bit.

You sure you want to use household budgets as an analogy?

because what the kids demand cost more than the income they provide? What if he an indulgent dad - or a politician who will promise anything to gain power?

The abusive Dad as head of the household is a bad model for running the household.

The politicians are not the ones with the power.

Indulgent Dad? You have go to be kidding. You really are applying some sort of paternalistic autocratic model to this, and defending the abusers.

financial) aren't even assessed vat.

that's because governments = the executive committee of the ruling class.

which is why they're turning the screws on ordinary people to pay off their bad bets.

that doesn't hurt Greek workers?

if you spend more than you can take in then it doesn't matter how much you tax the rich - it still won't be enough. And how do you plan to fix the corruption that allowed the rich to avoid taxes?

The crisis was caused by the wealthy looting the economy. We don't even need to take back what they stole, we merely need to stop the ongoing theft.

The "fix" is this - educating, organizing, mobilizing, demonstrating, striking. That is what the people there are doing.

That is the only way to change things - numbers, solidarity and resistance are the only things the working people have. The Greek people are doing that, and you complain.

How could taxing the rich "not be enough?" That is illogical.

As has been explained over and over again, a government budget is not analogous to a household budget. In a household budget you spend money that leaves the house and you never see it again. When a government spends money in a country, the people spend it within the community and the country. It doesn't disappear, it cycles and creates jobs and incomes for others. The only way it can disappear is if it is being drained off into the pockets of global investors from outside of the country, and that is what in fact happened in Greece, and with the "bail out" plan that will accelerate.

second, the kind of spending you're talking about is mainly spending on food, housing, & employing people to do actual work, so i guess you're telling me greece "can't afford" to keep its people in houses (which already exist in surplus, i can direct you to entire deserted villages in greece, for example, not to mention entire islands owned by wealthy fucks) & food (which is about the lowest level of spending there is, not to mention greece exports about $7 billion worth of food).

& if you think the corruption that allows the rich to evade taxes is "impossible to fix" then you've already told me you understand quite well that the current plan is designed to pinch the non-rich, who don't have such sophisticated methods to evade taxation.

if they can't stop the rich from evading taxation, then why should the bottom 90% pay, & why should they obey such discriminatory laws that force them to, when the powerful don't? What is the legitimacy of such laws & such governments?

is government spending - pensions, health care, economic subsidies. Of course the Greek economy can feed, clothe and house their population.

If the Greek population was so concerned with tax evasion then why haven't they done anything about it? A fundamental assumption of yours that I question is that only the rich have benefited from this corruption - I think is extends much deeper in their society (the same could be said for any country by the way). I don't think that the "workers" are any more or any less corruptible than the rich.

They don't have to obey such laws - they just have to accept the consequences.

They feed, house & clothe people.

And health care prevents them dying of easily treatable conditions.

But these minimal provisions must be dumped to ensure the wealth of the master class.

again...

If anything, it exposes the logical consequences of right-wing anti-tax ideology. If the Freepers are pushing this narrative, they ought to stop and think (there's a first time for everything).

Though many comments on the thread would have you believe it is troll flamebait, be assured it is not.

The Greeks are notorious for being a bunch of tax cheats. They simply haven't paid taxes in years if ever for some of them.....and don't like the idea of starting now. They're an embarassment.

Before you spout off about supporting the Greek people in their riots at least do try and get a clue about what has been going on there for years and years.

Greece's economic collapse was caused by, guess who, 'the little people'!

What caused Iceland's economic collapse?

Latvia's?

Italy's near collapse?

Spain's, Portugal's, Britain's, Ireland's, all falling like dominoes, all victims of unregulated Global Capitalism and governments only too willing to deal with snake-oil salespersons like Goldman Sachs?

The tax evasion problem in Greece had zero to do with what is happening to their economy, but it is a nice rightwing talking point to avoid the unpleasant truth about Global Capitalism. As one country after another falls it will be harder and harder to blame it on the working class. It is already and only the willfully blind would continue to repeat that attempt to divert from the real problems that have collapsed economies world-wide.

They are doing "God's Work" and don't you forget it, prole.

:rofl:

What caused Iceland's economic collapse? The total deregulation of their banking industry, followed by collapse of that industry in the credit crunch, and the fact that their only other industry is fishing.

The situation in Italy is a bit more complex, but they have problems similar to Greece - namely that about a third of the economy is underground and untaxable, and they have a horribly corrupt government.

Spain and Portugal were in a recession TWO YEARS before the start of the current economic crisis, and (big fucking surprise) having a heavily tourism-dependent economy with a small manufacturing base and lousy export numbers doesn't exactly work well in a recession.

Britain's economy isn't collapsing. Their problems are minor compared to the above.

Ireland has basically the same problem as Iceland, only not so pronounced. Again, their economic "miracle" was based on bank deregulation which has now backfired.

As for the tax evasion problem in Greece, people here are certainly blowing it out of proportion. The best estimates I've read say that it accounts for somewhere between 5 - 20% of the debt load. So fixing taxation alone will not solve the problems in Greece. The thing that irritates the fuck out of me is that people keep shouting "It's all global capitalism's fault!" without actually EXPLAINING ANY KIND OF MECHANISM whereby global capitalism created Greece's debt and deficit problems.

The U.S. has debt. Economies don't collapse because a country has debt.

How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt

Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

......

Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.

Fictional Exchange Rates

Such transactions are part of normal government refinancing. Europe's governments obtain funds from investors around the world by issuing bonds in yen, dollar or Swiss francs. But they need euros to pay their daily bills. Years later the bonds are repaid in the original foreign denominations.

But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.
.......

In previous years, Italy used a similar trick to mask its true debt with the help of a different US bank. In 2002 the Greek deficit amounted to 1.2 percent of GDP. After Eurostat reviewed the data in September 2004, the ratio had to be revised up to 3.7 percent. According to today's records, it stands at 5.2 percent.

At some point Greece will have to pay up for its swap transactions, and that will impact its deficit. The bond maturities range between 10 and 15 years. Goldman Sachs charged a hefty commission for the deal and sold the swaps on to a Greek bank in 2005.

The bank declined to comment on the controversial deal. The Greek Finance Ministry did not respond to a written request for comment.

We don't know half of what these corporations have been doing around the globe, but wherever we do find them operating, it seems to spell disaster for the countries that deal with them, including our own.

This is one of the reasons the people of Greece are rioting. They, like the Italians before them, Argentina and elsewhere, Latvia eg, are refusing as they have said clearly, to 'pay for the problems caused by their governments'. All these secret deals, done without the permission of the people, then when they fail, it is the people who are asked to pay.

And then in comes the IMF imposing more debt and more rules on those countries. It IS Global Capitalism. And it HAS failed, and maybe that's because it has not been regulated. But you could say the same for all the other 'isms' that failed, 'it wasn't done right'. Of course they each have different problems because they are different countries, but tell the people of Iceeland or Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Spain or Greece that their countries' economies didn't collapse because of Global Capitalism.

I don't think this will last much longer. They used to be able to operate without much resistance, their World Banks coming in after the collapse of an economy and doing what they always do, eradicating social programs, lowering salaries of the working class, turning countries into serfs. But Europeans are a bit more savvy about all this. They know about their 'disaster capitalism' which is what is happening now in Greece, and if that isn't 'Global Capitalism' what is? And they don't want it.

I know that the people of Greece are getting huge support from all over Europe. And to hide the real cause of all of this, we are told it is because the people were doing something wrong, here they 'bought homes they couldn't afford' etc. Except no one is believing them anymore. Their are the past. I don't know what the future will be, but Capitalism HAS failed, it has caused untold harm to millions of people around the world. As long as they were doing it in third world countries, no one here cared but now it's closer to us. South America has thrown them out, having suffered for decades under Global Corporations.

You can argue that if it had been regulated, it would have worked. The fact is that the Capitalists didn't want it regulated and they got what they wanted. Now, I hope they get what they deserve. Starting here in the U.S. with some indictments, hopefully.

I have about $200 in debt and I make a pretty high salary. Does that put me in the same league as someone owing $20,000 in debt on a lower salary? Debt as a percentage of GDP is the issue here, and Greece blatantly has a problem in this area.

Now as for GS, they were definitely helping Greece hide its true debt obligations from the EU and others, and allowing Greece to accrue more debt than it could reasonably pay off. But GS did not create that debt, nor did they force Greece into more debt by their actions, as your own article makes perfectly clear.

We don't know half of what these corporations have been doing around the globe, but wherever we do find them operating, it seems to spell disaster for the countries that deal with them, including our own.

Really, now? Do you see the economies of Germany or France collapsing? Norway? Denmark? Morocco? Indonesia? Australia? New Zealand? Brazil? The Netherlands? Do you think the same corporations don't operate in those countries?

I'll end by telling you the same thing I've told everyone else in these threads. Show me an actual corporate entity or group of people who forced Greece into this situation, and the mechanism used to do so, and I'll hear you out. But making vague allusions to some sort of global capitalist conspiracy does not constitute evidence of actual wrongdoing. In other words, show me the money (or lack thereof) and then we'll have something to talk about.

That is a false analogy, Mr. Pretty High Salary.

A company town is a better analogy than your domestic budget.

Of course, the investors and bankers want us to think of countries as though they were households, with them as the authoritarian fathers and all of the workers dependent, compliant little children. The difference is this - in that imaginary "household" the children do all of the work and generate all of the income. Daddy keeps most of it (he owns the plant they work in) and then rents rooms to the kids - at more then they can afford - and sells them food and clothes. Then he cuts their wages. When they come up short, Daddy says he will bail them out, but they will have to further reduce their standard of living. If they object, he wages a smear campaign against them in the media, and calls in paramilitary swat teams to main, murder or arrest them.

That isn't how you run your household, is it?

Is it so difficult to name a single firm that is in some way responsible for this mess? Why can't anyone go beyond vague generalizations?

What bankers and investors? The ones who control the entire economy around most of the world.

Now, that is a quick and simple answer, because that is what your question implies there should be. Obviously, it is inadequate, though accurate. But we most certainly can dig in on the topic - that would be a great idea, and there are people here already doing that on a daily basis.

Let me ask you this: if investors and bankers do not control the entire economy, then why were we told we had to bail them out or the entire economy would collapse? Why does even Alan Greenspan know this is true, and is now channeling his inner Marxist, and yet we have some Democrats here saying "bankers? What bankers? I don't see any bankers. Investors? What do they have to do with anything?"

Fine.

The question is nonsensical. It is framed in such a way so as to have no answer. "If you can't name the bad guy, then nothing bad has happened." Odd argument - "how dare you accuse someone of wrong doing" combined with "your argument is flawed because you haven't accused specific people of specific wrong doing." I think that is your argument. Hard to tell.

That does bring up an important point, though. Whether it is Enron, Ken Lay, Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, or British Petroleum being used as a scapegoat, singling out one firm or one player as the target for public anger does us a real disservice, I think. They were doing what all of their competitors and colleagues were doing, as well, and throwing one to the wolves by holding dramatic hearings in Congress or setting up show trials creates a false illusion that something has been done to solve the problem.

The Greek government didn't want to make tough cuts so they went for looking for ways to hide their debt so they could get more credit. Goldman Sachs was more than willing to help them.

Greece is not the victim here - the government knew exactly what they were doing.

All of us witnessed first hand, and still see, the tremendous pressure to privatize, to open up new areas for the investors, with all of the promises of prosperity for all. Any who spoke out against that over the last 30-40 years was quickly dismissed and ridiculed. Now, as it all goes to Hell, suddenly we are going to blame those who were duped by the promises, or forced to submit to the programs whether they wanted to or not, rather than blaming those who made the absurd sales pitches in the first place, who corrupted and strong-armed and threatened government officials, who fed a steady stream of propaganda into the media, who steam-rolled over all opposition.

No the "hard choices" all fall on the people least responsible for the mess. Good opportunity to keep repeating "socialist government" too, so as to discredit and smear the political left wing, and I see that corporate media is beating that drum as much as they can.

"Greece is not the victim here." Which Greece? Apologists for the wealthy, for the ruling class, never make a distinction. Are you talking about "Greece" as in the Greek working class, or as in the ruling class? People do the same thing with the word "America." They use that word as though it meant "the American ruling class" and then even say "we" when referring to them, thereby inadvertently revealing their allegiance to and sympathy with the ruling class.

When things go well with a country, the rulers get the credit and when we say "Greece" we mean the wealthy few. But when things go bad the "Greece" that needs to be punished then becomes the working class people.

let the Greeks simply handle themselves? I have no problem with that.

I didn't realize that Greek politicians were so naive and unsophisticated and therefore need to protected from themselves when those polished, sweet talking bankers come knocking. Are you sure that they have what it takes to run a modern democracy?

I think that clarity is the most important goal in these discussions.

The arrogance and contempt in your post is simply staggering. It is the same arrogance and contempt that we are faced with right here. I am glad to see your post, as it reveals exactly what the game is and where the battle lines are drawn. People need to know that, they need to see the face and hear the voice of our tormentors and not be fooled by the "sweet talking" when they "come knocking." Could anything invoke the image of organized criminals more effectively - "just here to have a little talk with you. Think of it as a courtesy call, and as a word to the wise. No need for anyone to get hurt here, and I am sure we can reach an understanding."

You are calling the well-financed and orchestrated play for world domination by the investment class, backed up by the threat of the US military and augmented and facilitated by corrupt regimes and puppet governments, phony "modern democracies," supported by the US "sweet talking?" You call the relentless pressure, the threats and bribes and bullying merely a matter of some friendly bankers who "come knocking?" You derisively question whether or not people have "what it takes to run a modern democracy?"

Of course if it were all as benign as your "sweet-talking" and "come knocking" comments would imply, then there would be no need for the contempt and arrogance in the rest of your post. That combination of "we are innocent well-intentioned people who are only here to help you" and "you had better go along or else" is the perfect dramatization of the psychology of the predator - in this case the colonialist, the exploiter, the imperialist." Your use of the modifier "modern" in front of "democracy" is telling, as well. "Modern" democracies, as opposed to real democracies are of course some sort of window dressing to fool the workers about the true nature of these "democracies" - fronts for global imperialism and predatory economic behavior.

Fix whose mess? For whose benefit? Obviously, the wealthy get to control the game and then the workers must suffer when the game goes bad. You are as much admitting that in your brief post.

Dear working people -

Nice planet you have here. Be a shame if anything were to happen to it.

Sincerely,
Your friends on Wall Street

P.S. We'll be in touch. Don't call us, we'll call you.

the Greek workers are unhappy but what solutions are they suggesting? Regardless of how they got there, they are in a huge financial hole. How do they get out of it?

You say the Greek workers are unhappy, as though it were some petty and minor thing - followed by that age old canard "yeah but if you don't like the way things are then what's YOUR solution?" and then you say "they are in a huge financial hole." Who is in a huge financial hole? "How do they get out of it?" How does who get out?

The solution for the workers is to stop letting the investors and bankers rob the country. That is how the workers get out of the shithole they are in. That always requires organizing, mass mobilizing, going on strike - they are doing all of that. How the investors get out of the shithole they are in is their problem.

The problem and the solution for the workers is quite different than the problem and the solution for the wealthy people. There is a battle between the two, the interests of the two groups are oppositional. You are consistently siding with the wealthy and attacking and maligning the workers. How come?

where do its leaders come from? Perhaps I misunderstand your argument.

Let me ask you this: who do you think runs this country? The elected politicians?

or are they dupes?

And again - what is the immediate solution?

The immediate solution is exactly what the Greek people are doing.

how does Greece deal with the debt? Why do you keep dancing around the issue? Can't you lay out two or three practical steps that the government needs to do to solve their immediate problem?

The ever-evolving argument. Now we have the "practical steps" and "what's YOUR plan" gambit.

I am not dancing around the issue, I am refusing to accept that the issue is what you claim it to be.

The problem - for the Greek working people - is in the process of being resolved. They are following the "practical steps" - educating, organizing, mobilizing, demonstrating, resisting. Pay attention. those are the practical steps we should be taking, as well.

As for the problem that the wealthy have with all of this - why is that our worry? What they want is oppositional to what the Greek people want. I refuse to accept your demand that we all get to work to solve the problems of the wealthy and the investors, and that this is the same thing as solving Greece's problem.

That is pretty basic politics, nothing all that radical and nothing that should be difficult to see or grasp for anyone with pretensions of being even the teensiest bit to the left and in opposition to the political right wing.

to maintain their social benefits - the riots certainly don't solve that problem. The rich - they can simply escape

No doubt the plan for the international investors and the wealthy is to first try to force the Greek people to knuckle under, and if that fails take the money and run.

Many people will then say "oh we had better do what they want, or they will really screw us." That is in fact how many people in this country are responding to the extortion threats from Wall Street, the pharmaceutical industry, the insurance industry and on and on.

There are two choices, for the Greek working people and for all of us as well - knuckle under, or fight back. Fighting back carries some risks, but knuckling under is certain death and misery.

and by "public," i mean the working class.

what are those rich people going to eat if others don't work for them?

maybe they can eat their houses, jewels & stock certificates.

Let's take the investors and capitalists and put them on an island.

The let's take all of the working people and put them on a different island.

We will have both groups keep doing what they are doing now.

The first island would collapse and starve, the second would prosper.

The investors and capitalists need the workers, but the workers don't need the the investors and capitalists. The biggest lie of our age is that it is the other way around.

We agree.

:patriot:

Bunch of idiotic right-wing tea partiers that hate bailing out the rich!

Hundreds of thousands of strikers, unions, and protestors are tax cheats? Are you insane? This is a left uprising, not a right-wing joke.

have these burdens, rich people!? They just move because they are loaded and don't suffer from the slippery slope.

but if you read these and other articles you'll see that tax evasion is practically a national pastime. People in Greece just declare how they make, then pay the amount they owe not surprisingly in a system where you have to be honest many weren't. Meanwhile the government is paying for things like their national healthcare system and generous benefits to it's own workers like full retirement at 54. But they aren't taking the revenue to support it that is how they ran up their massive debt and now they have to make cuts to live with in their means. Of course this piss a lot people off, no one likes giving a benefit and then being made to pay more in taxes.

Re-read the first sentence you wrote over and over until you get it.

This crisis had nothing to do with tax evasion. Period.

posters have informed us that Greeks retire at 50, 53 or 54 with full pension benefits.

All false.

Average age at retirement in Greece is 61.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8506142.stm

100% of population unreports income for income tax. Unlike our income tax system you simply state your income and write a check to the govt. Anyone realize how that system might now work well.

Even the VAT is not subject to widespread abuse. Roughly 30% (almost a third) of the economy is off books to avoid the VAT.

To pretend tax evasion isn't rampant and corrupting all aspects of Greek life is simply silly.

Greece wants a massive social safety net but unlike actual progressives in say Sweden or France they don't want to pay for it.

Big Govt & Low (no) taxes!

and we need to be careful to not incorrectly apply our own American problems to what is going on in Greece today.

And "aliens" too! Round them up!

All of them! Lazy SOBs, criminals, cheaters, and free-loaders! Time we give them all a dose of reality, IMF style.

Amazing how people who want to defend the wealthy and attack the working class grab onto some little theme and repeat it and repeat it.

These are working class people, government workers and pensioners.

Retiring at 50? 14 months' pay for 12 months of work? Greece is full of small biz owners who grease the wheels of bribery on a regular basis to avoid paying into the system from which they must draw.

If I had to make a prediction about what will ultimately happen, it would be that the people take over the banks and ultimately install a completely socialist system. At least it would be more fair and sustainable, but they still would be in for many years of difficulty with the D word--depression.

Ever get a pay raise? Like, oh say maybe 15% or so? OMG!!! That would mean you were being paid for 14 months of work but only working for 12 months!!

Average age at retirement in Greece is 61.

14 months pay?
For 10% of the workforce. 90% receive nothing.
Total bonuses for the entire nation equal six months income for hedge fund manager John Paulson.
Bonuses cut by 70% in April.

All of the right wing propaganda about this has now been challenged and shown to be false. Those promoting that propaganda have not been able to - have not tried to - defend their assertions.

Yet, despite that pack of lies having been utterly demolished, those lies keep getting repeated and repeated as though there were no rebuttal, as though they had not been refuted, on thread after thread. That can only mean that the board is being used, exploited, for the purpose of spamming right wing talking points.

It is not as though people were posting "I heard that the Greek people are retiring at 50, is that true?" and then dropping it when it has been demonstrated that it is false. No, the charge is posted as though it were the truth, and then when it is shown to be a lie there is no attempt at defending it, and no retraction. Instead, the person moves on to another thread and posts the same lie yet again, forcing people to debunk it yet again, or else it stands without challenge. This is the classic way that authoritarian regimes and propagandists get their message out there and implant it into people's thinking - repeat it and repeat it and repeat it, knowing that if it is repeated often enough it will be impossible for people to debunk it each and every time it is thrown out there, and it will then start to be taken as "common knowledge" by people simply because they have heard it so many times.

A quick search reveals that the average age at retirement is 61.
Took all of one minute to find this BBC link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8506142.stm

And yet it is now "a fact" that Greeks retire at 50 through the power of propaganda.
And you are correct...not one attempted rebuttal.
But a falsehood can't be defended, so it is quickly dropped.
It's repeated without fact-checking and by now 90% of the world thinks Greeks retire at 50.

The bankers who bought swaps on Greek bonds will order their PR firms to lower the imaginary retirement age to 38 this week.
And by Friday, "The Greeks retire at 38" will be accepted as true.

You'd think after "Saddam can nuke London in 45 minutes" people would be more skeptical of our "news".

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda

Global Capitalism.

The riots in Greece are for the same reason we SHOULD be rioting on the streets here. The Wealthy do not pay taxes, just like here they get tax breaks and hide their money over seas.

Global Capitalism, the same thing that brought down Iceland's economy, has brought down Greece's and now the IMF, Germany and the U.S. want the ordinary people, NOT those responsible, to pay for it all. That will happen here too if we don't get the kind of courage these people are demonstrating.

This is greed being challenged. And it's scaring the shit out of the greedy around the world in case it spreads, which I hope it does.

The bail-out of Greece's economy was pretty blatantly stated to be to protect the wealthy. Ordinary Greeks are saying they will not pay for the corruption that brought down the economy.

By contrast, Americans have been tamed and have paid, in the form of the Bail-outs, with hardly a whisper.

I think we ought to be joining forces with ordinary people around the world and giving at least moral support to the people of Greece for being among the first to rise up against the horrible results of run-away, unregulated Capitalism. They are showing us the way. Massive strikes, paralyzing the country, causing the greedy Wall St. types to shake in their expensive shoes. That's what is needed here until all of them are brought to justice.

Watch as this country, if the Greek Govt. succeeds in passing the bill to ordinary workers for the greed of the Wall ST. types, follows suit and starts cutting SS and other 'entitlement' programs. You know how they want to.

So the people of Greece are fighting for us also. I admire them so much for their unwillingness to put up with what WE put up with here.

As for the NYT, has everyone forgotten who they work for?

reported how the wealthy don't pay taxes


households in wealthy section of Athens reported approx 6,ooo pools....but satellite photos showed approx 25,000 pools.....

shows they did not report the fact that Exxon (with $45 billion in profit) and
GE ($10.8 billion in profit) did not pay one penny in federal tax for 2009.
Yet they are reporting on the tax returns of a shopkeeper in Athens?
What a Wall Street puppet this paper has become.

The irony is unlike US teabaggers they actually want big govt they simply don't want to pay for it.

Socialist Teabaggers! :rofl:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Poor people = pay the debt
Rich people = move away, them move back

Greece has a massive social system (public pensions, universal healthcare, large unemployment compensation, aid for working poor, no cost higher education, etc).

Now all that is good. Great however Greece doesn't collect enough in taxes to pay for this massive system. It is one thing to be a socialist. It is an entire different (and stupid) thing to be a socialist who doesn't want to pay for the social (common) good.

Tax evasion in both income tax and VAT are near universal. Greece collects less than 20% of the projected tax revenue. Tax enforcement is non-existent.

You can't have a complex social safety net without paying for it.
Greece has paid for it by using other people's money. That has come to an end.

The country has a 13% national deficit. Spending will need to go down and taxation will need to go up. If it doesn't happen now (with generous low interest bailout from IMF & EU) then Greece will go bankrupt AND IT WILL STILL HAPPEN.

There's been multiple cites in every goddamn thread on this topic. Stop wasting peoples' time and do a bit of your own research. Just google "Greek tax evasion" and you'll find stories in everything from the Atlantic to the BBC to the New York Times to DW to AFP.

Well, there is one other that may have him beat, but..

Just like here, though, nothing left for the workers. Just like here, though, nothing left for the workers or the poor.

But then it's much easier to throw the usual mantra of it's the rich or the bankers fault. The Greek government promised benefits it could never pay. The people of Greece evade their taxes as a national pastime. You promise more than you can pay out and someday the bill comes due. That day has arrived and they don't have the money. Goldman's crime in this is helping the Greek government cover this truth up for awhile. The alternative is for Greece to declare bankruptcy and all those protestors will find out quick that all the bennies have run out and there is no tooth fairy around to turn the cash on again. It seems many Greeks like governemnt benefits but don't like paying for them. That day is over...

for the failure of neo-liberalism which has caused a worldwide economic crisis. Iceland was the first to fall victim to this system. Now it's Greece, next according to analysts it may be Spain, Purtugal, and Great Britain among others. Are they all 'tax evaders'?

If the Global Capitalists succeed in privatizing Greece, which is what will happen, then it will happen elsewhere. Which is why right now, people across Europe are acting in solidarity with the Greek working class knowing that they may be next.

This is an attack on social programs and the vultures are moving in quickly. I admire the Greeks for refusing to accept it. And I hope they, like Iceland, replace the government that basically sold them out with a government that works for the people. Even if tax evasion is a problem, it did NOT cause this economic collapse. That is something that can be fixed. And every economist I have read on the subject, while acknowledging that taxes need to be collected, and the wealthy who have left Greece with their money need to be tracked down and start paying their fair share, all say that even if tax collection had been 100% successful, this crisis would still have happened because it is an entirely separate issue. It is the failure of predatory run-away, unregulated Capitalism and fortunately Greeks, unlike many here in this country, are not buying the excuses.

they worked with banks to hide their debt. And guess who elected the Greek government. And the fact that tax evasion is so pervalent in Greece is once again the fault of the government. That's called lack of regulation. And yeah, it involves the working class and the rich.

...that problems can have MULTIPLE causes? That it could be at least possible that there's lots of blame to go around for Greece's economic woes, and it's not as easy as the brave, solid, trustworthy, hardworking, honest and kind working class heroes vs. the evil, swindling banksters?

that needed to be fixed. But those problems would not have collapsed the entire economy. Globalism is a disaster for all but the most powerful countries, (check out what it did to third world countries eg). Greece eg, was unable to increase their export business due to being part of the EU. Factories, just like here, are practically non-existent as global corporations find cheap ways to over produce food and other goods and then flood markets such as Greece's with those cheap goods, killing the businesses, as they did the farms in India and elsewhere eg.

The only difference now is they have moved to Europe and are an increasing presence here, killing the manufacturing industry, and even the Tech business, and the farming business. Haiti is another example of the evils of Global Capitalism.

To deny it is really silly. All that is needed to sell out a country to Global Interests is a willing government. That is why we hate the new governments in South America. They've been there, and have now kicked out their corrupt leaders who enslaved them to Global Corporatism.

...anything about global financial markets having been part of the problems in Greece. Greece has so many internal problems, however, that it became a "canary in the coal mine", it made itself more vulnerable to economic woes when the world economy went into a tailspin. Greece may not have sunk as far as it currently has without the insanity of the world financial problems, but it likely would have gotten itself into some serious trouble over time no matter what happened in the world at large. The Greek economy is unsustainable more than most national economies, and it can't dig itself out of its current mess without some painful internal changes. Who's most to blame has very little with what needs to be done to fix things.

What I'm objecting to is the way I see so many people so eager to frame everything as having one and only one cause that they rail against even mentioning other contributing factors as if it's a denial or a smoke screen or a propaganda game to even dare mention anything other than Big Evil Global Capitalism as part of the problem, and people acting as if it's a necessity to have only praise for the Greek protesters rather than dare mention any part the Greek people may have played in their own problems.

European countries joined the EU, they were no longer autonomous and free to deal with those problems themselves in whatever way they people decided.

Their export business is restricted as a result of their membership in the EU, and I recall huge resistance in many countries to joining it.

Global Capitalists could not do in Europe what they did in third world countries. Europeans were 'spoiled' with too much democracy for too long. So, the EU was a way to get them into a situation where they could be controlled more easily.

Ireland eg, held out from joining for a long time, but finally succumbed. Initially it seemed like a good idea as Global corps started setting up businesses, hiring people etc. However, the dream didn't last long. All this 'new money' created huge inflation ~ in the cost of housing eg. Homes that 20 years ago were affordable, were sold to speculators and resold for so much money it was hard to believe. Many people worried, and rightly so, that these changes were not sustainable.

Greece was not a third world country, neither was Iceland or Ireland. But now, after their experiment with Global Capitalism like all those third world countries before them, Greece has fallen into that category, or close to it with a foreign entity dictating how the country will run. Had they stayed away from Goldman Sachs, eg, and set about collecting taxes and cutting costs where necessary, exporting their own goods without restrictions, they might not have been one of the wealthiest countries in the world, but they could have survived as an independent nation.

So now, the EU is another entity that is too big too fail. As people across Europe realize the folly of giving up their identities, currencies, independent trading rights etc. many are regretting the experiment and hopefully many will simply opt out of the EU altogether.

You seem to want to rush into oversimplifications in order to prop up false equivalencies.


I don't see any indication that autonomously the Greeks would have dealt with their internal problems much better than they did as part of the EU.

As Winston Churchill once said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." One of the downsides of democracy -- this is not an evil attributable to capitalism, global or otherwise -- is that voters are happy to vote for politicians who make unrealistic promises to give them plenty of benefits and lower their taxes at the same time. The main thing the EU and bankers facilitated was allowing the Greeks to dig themselves a deeper hole faster before harsh reality forced unpleasant changes on them, and that hole might have been deeper than otherwise because of effects like our own housing bubble that weren't merely internal problems.

Globalization does have its downsides, the main one being that we don't have regulatory measures with sufficient international reach, but lets not pretend that having the world divided into little fiefdoms with a plethora of individual currencies and artificial trade barriers is all sunshine and roses either, free from abuse and economic calamities.

We have billions of dollars available to finance think tanks and the relentless and wide dissemination of propaganda, we control the media, and have serious clout in all of the western governments. We bombard the public 24 hours a day with our message. We have billions of dollars at stake in this battle as our own personal fortunes, and we are used to having our way in all things. We will stop at nothing to win this battle.

And that is how we are able to disseminate our Big Evil Global Capitalism propaganda, and why we do it.

Yep. That's it.

The fact that you could post that with some hope of people taking it seriously is a sobering commentary on the state of political discourse in this country, and reflection of just how effective the propaganda effort I described in that first paragraph actually is. But of course it is not those defending the working people who are doing that, now is it?

So, you would have us mistrust, and you dismiss and ridicule, those advocating for the poor people and working people and you want us to take as legitimate and valid the utterly false and malicious propaganda being distributed by the shills for the wealthiest and most powerful few? You must have some confidence that people will take what you are saying here seriously, as well.

You willfully misrepresent the other posters on this thread in a derisive and condescending way. You want us to see the predators as the aggrieved party, and the victims as the dangerous predators.

These are lies -

"So many people so eager" to side with the working class? You have got to be kidding.

No one is "railing against even mentioning other contributing factors."

No one is saying "it's a denial or a smoke screen or a propaganda game to even dare mention anything other than Big Evil Global Capitalism as part of the problem."

No one is saying "it's a necessity to have only praise for the Greek protesters."

Those statements by you are not opinions, not points of view, they are willful misrepresentations.

Meanwhile, is your opening paragraph to merely be taken as gospel, or can we take it to pieces and reveal it for what it is - unsubstantiated and unsupported speculation that can only lead to blaming the working people and support the interests of the wealthy?

The criticisms of the thoughts expressed in your opening paragraph have been mild compared to the smear job you just did on those who disagree with you.

This would be far more accurate then what you posted:

"What I'm objecting to is the way I see so many people so eager to frame everything as having one and only one cause that they rail against even mentioning other contributing factors as if it's a denial or a smoke screen or a propaganda game to even dare mention anything other than those lazy tax-cheating Greek working people as part of the problem, and people acting as if it's a necessity to have only praise for the investors and financial experts rather than dare mention any part the the bankers and investors may have played in their own problems."

Far more accurate.

Care to debate which paragraph might be more accurate, yours or my rewrite, rather than maliciously and dishonestly smearing your opponents? You claim to want to get at the truth. Let's dig in and get to it.

they were the ones that went to Goldman Sachs looking for a way to hide their debt so they could obtain more credit.

most governments these days spend more than they take in. Japan has far more debt than Greece, yet they are not in a crisis.

You need to think this one through a little bit more. I don't think you've got the whole picture, not even close.

that will increase its deficit in a few years. Japan also has much less debt as a percentage of GDP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt


also, greece's debt/gdp ratio jumped recently because of their bankster bailout.

Where are you hearing this "usual mantras" of "it's the rich or the bankers fault?" What sort of reactionary nonsense is that?

We are hearing the usual mantra all right - that it is the poor people's fault and the working people's fault.

But let's say just for the sake of argument, that half of the media - or even half of the people here - spoke for the working class, and that they were "throwing the usual mantra of it's the rich or the bankers fault," while the other half of the media were "throwing the usual mantra of it's the poor or the working people's fault." Now, do you think for a minute that half of the media speaks for the working class? No, of course not. But let's say that this were true. So we have two "usual mantras" flying around, in about equal amounts under those circumstances, yes?

In that case, why are you - a Democratic, I presume - siding with those throwing the usual mantra of it's the poor or the working people's fault" around? Why would that be?

Given that the two sides do not have equal access to the media and so to the ears of the public, it is safe to presume - and a quick Google will verify this = that "it's the poor or the working people's fault" is more prevalent in articles than "it's the rich or the bankers fault" by a margin of at least ten to one.

So, actually "it's the rich or the bankers fault" is the LESS usual mantra, when compared to the very common mantra, the one blaming poor and working people.

Why do you think that side - already with all of the advantages - needs you help? Why do you think those of us throwing around the opposite mantra need to be attacked and ridiculed?

I don't get it. Explain why you are fighting so hard for the side you are fighting for, and how that is consistent with being a Democrat?

less social spending. But the reason they are in the position they are in is because of their elected officals getting them there. Greece has been spending way beyond its means for years. If the Greek people don't see that they are fucked now, and that they only have their government and ultimately themselves to blame, then they will find out soon enough if they don't change their government and their spending just how screwed they are.

just like our spending has brought a boom to China. It's a two way street. Europe needed the free-spending Greeks.

Greece has actually been reducing government spending for years, yet the debt crisis did not abate. Why? Because they suffered from a collapse in private capital and private exports, and unlike the US, Japan, and other indebted sovereigns, their currency is pegged so they are heavily constrained.

It's simply not valid to blame a crisis caused solely by bad monetary policy on a facet of the economy that was both functional and extremely instrumental to the Eurozone.

government spending has been increasing, and quite rapidly, though the rate of increase was starting to fall. I don't deny that Greece is a major part of the world economy. If they do go bankrupt, the whole world will suffer. Which is why they're getting bailed out.

In 2008, it was about *half* of US SS spending.

They're not "a major part of the world economy".

But if they default, some banksters will lose some change.

It simply is not true. As a requirement for being in the Eurozone they are required to keep deficit below 3% of GDP.

A requirement they have never met not even once since entering the Eurozone.

The fiscal consolidation achieved during the last three and a half years is substantial:

�� The deficit was reduced from 7.3% of GDP in 2004 (according to the revised GDP data) to levels below 3% in 2006 and 2007, for the first time since Greece entered the EMU.

�� The general government debt has diminished by 5.2 percentage points of GDP during the period 2004-2007.

�� This progress was achieved mainly through the curtailment of expenditure and of tax evasion. At the same time, the tax rates on firms and households have been reduced.

http://www.mnec.gr/export/sites/mnec/en/economics/2008_Budget_at_a_glance/2008Budget_eng.pdf

While the Greek petit bourgeoisie and their 'betters' may indeed cheat like hell they are a relatively small part of the populace. The people in the streets look to be workers, the people who will really take it on the chin.

The lengths that water carriers of the ruling class will go to deflect criticism of their beloved masters is pretty disgusting.

Whatever they are ideologically, the blame lies with the Greek government and those who elected them.

They are all the same. If they can't get on the corporate game plan, can't get with the program, they have what's coming to them.

Yep. Let's blame the working people.

Riot in Reykjavik
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-189127

:silly:

Are they ALL tax-evaders? This is the Global Capitalist propaganda machine at work and sad to see people buying it here.

Remember when Republicans tried to blame the derivatives-fueled insolvency crisis on fair lending laws?

The same "logic," the same people making the arguments, the same people standing to benefit.

it's understandable. Their government overspent and gambled their money. But if they are mad at their government and want that government to keep spending at huge levels, well then that is stupid and teabagger-like. The teabaggers want the deficit cut, but they don't want their medicare and social security to be cut. Same difference.

Our government overspent - on the wealthy - and gambled away our money.

I want our government to increase spending on the needs of the working people - don't you?

I want the government to alleviate the tax burden on the working people - don't you?

I want our government to raise taxes dramatically on the wealthy and on passive income - don't you?

I want an end to privatization and regressive taxation - don't you?

I want the investors and bankers out of our government - don't you?

I want an end to government policies that help and protect investors - don't you?

I think all people should be guaranteed jobs, housing, safe food, education, access to medical care, and a good standard of living, and that it is the appropriate role of the government - the only important role for the government, the main purpose for having government in the first place - to guarantee those basic necessities. Don't you?

I think all of that is in agreement with what the Greek workers are fighting for. What does that have to do with the tea baggers?

"I want our government to increase spending on the needs of the working people - don't you?"

The teabaggers claim this as well. Key word: "working people".

"I want the government to alleviate the tax burden on the working people - don't you?"

Yes, definitely a point teabaggers agree with you on.

"I want our government to raise taxes dramatically on the wealthy and on passive income - don't you?"

Not something the teabaggers advocate as much, though they are against all taxes in general. Course, I don't know that the Greeks want this either per se. Maybe?

"I want an end to privatization and regressive taxation - don't you?"

We have progressive taxation here. Perhaps you want to make it more progressive? Which would just relate to your point above. Same thing. As for privatization, not so sure the Greek protests are even about that. The teabaggers are suspicious of anything government, though, to be honest, I'm guessing the Greeks are right now as well.

"I want the investors and bankers out of our government - don't you?"

The TeaParty agrees wholeheartedly with this as well. They are anti-Wall Street and anti-Government, even if they're too ignorant to know they support both in different ways.

"I want an end to government policies that help and protect investors - don't you?"

Teabaggers fully agree. Remember, they wanted to let the banks fail and hated the bailout.

"I think all people should be guaranteed jobs, housing, safe food, education, access to medical care, and a good standard of living, and that it is the appropriate role of the government - the only important role for the government, the main purpose for having government in the first place - to guarantee those basic necessities. Don't you?"

Teabaggers do think that there are appropriate jobs for government, though I'm sure will disagree greatly on what should be provided or how. But of course that is a rather broad idea of socialism, not a reflection of what the protests are currently about. The Greeks aren't protesting their government's socialist policies, which surely reflect what the people want ideologically. They are protesting that they will lose them because there is no money left.

So of the 7 reasons you gave, 4 of them the teabaggers would wholeheartedly agree with the Greek protestors, and those 4 reasons directly relate to the reason for protesting, 2 of them there would be partial agreement on, and have some relevance to the protests, and the one thing were they are different is there core ideology, which really has nothing to do with the protests and just goes to show that opposites in ideology can have very similar, ignorant positions.

The real big point to make is this. Many in the Tea Party and many on the left advocated for letting the banks fail and were against the bailout. Everybody pretty much agrees that we should make sure that situation never comes up again. But it was only certain extremes that were against the bailout. It is a great comparison, because without the bailout, the US economy would have been destroyed and there would have been a second Great Depression. But despite that, these people didn't want the bailout, I guess on purely ideological, rather than reasonable, grounds. Now, we bailed out the banks, and it is getting paid back. The Greeks will have to pay for their bailout, along with the Germans. But it will be temporary and not nearly as long term as if they defaulted. And the Germans will be paid back. And the Greeks will still have their socialist policies, just not as much money to spend, which I think is reasonable given they are spending within their means now.

The Greek protests are based on ignorance, just like the Tea Party, as well as legitimate anger. I understand the anger. But what they want is just stupid. Maybe they don't believe they will be down the shitter if they default. Many on here and many teabaggers said the same about the banks failing. Except for all the experts of course. And that anti-"elitism" just reeks of teabaggerism.

Interesting post, and unexpected. I appreciate you spelling out your position so clearly. That is rare.

I had assumed that people were just throwing around "tea baggers" as an insult, but as you explain there is a point of view from which "tea baggers" and left wing protesters can be seen as more or less the same. I also think you are correct that the real political divide is between the "experts" and the "ignorant" - which roughly corresponds with the haves and the have-nots, and with the "advanced" countries and the not so advanced countries, and that of course means between the working class and the ruling class. You come down forcefully and unambiguously on the side of the ruling class. Working class people all look more or less the same to you, be they "tea baggers" or socialists.

Another interesting facet of this - should any of us say that the Republican and Democratic parties are more or less the same, that they are two variants of the ruling class that have more in common than not, that is violently rejected by many Democrats. But those same people will urge us to see the "tea baggers" and socialists as more or less the same - ignorant, angry, ideological.

Your post basically says that the people in charge are doing just fine for all of us and know what they are doing, you condescendingly say that you "understand the anger," and that socialists and tea baggers are all basically the same - ignorant plebeians who should go home and let our betters - the intelligent knowledgeable experts - run things for us.

Truly fascinating post, and very enlightening. I hope that this can be discussed further, that more people will make their position as clear as you have made yours here.

not at all. But what these protesters are asking for isn't much better. I don't think it's condescending to say I understand their anger, and think it is reasonable. They should be angry. But anger is often misguided, as are the course of actions needed to solve problems.

The other part is that Greek citizens don't want various benefits cut, taxes raised, and probably most important, to be in debt and impoverished by the IMF.

Read Naomi Klein's book "Shock Doctrine" and see if you would want to be indebted to the IMF. Somehow, I think after reading that book, you would be out in the streets as well.

And just repeating "Shock Doctrine" over and over again isn't an intelligent response. The Greek government and people brought this upon themselves by the simple fact of spending far more than they were taking in. Nobody forced them into this situation. Not the EU, not the IMF, nobody.

Yes, Greece racked up some massive debt. But the fact of the matter is that the IMF is coming in to "bail out" Greece, and we all know where that leads, given the IMF's track record. Higher taxes, lower benefits, lots of privatization. You may be ignorant of what the IMF does, but people in other countries, including Greece, are fully aware of the implications when the IMF gets involved, which is one of the reasons they're rioting.

The World Wildlife Fund? Uzbekistan? In case you haven't bothered to actually read the details of the so-called "austerity" measures, one extremely large component on it is a massive tax hike on the rich. There's very little involving cutting social programs, but a lot about cutting public sector employment. But hey, I'm all ears if you have a suggestion for how they could possibly continue their current level of deficit spending without causing enormous problems. I've yet to hear one single person argue intelligently for an alternate solution.

Then perhaps you will understand what is happening.

Educate yourself.

They aren't asking how bad an IMF bailout would be. They are asking what solution YOU would propose.

In other words, since you don't support an IMF bailout, would YOU personally bail them out with your own cash?

If not, who do you propose bail them out with different conditions?

Or are you against a bailout with any conditions (and thus for default)?

Talking about the IMF is not answering the question.

The working people are not the ones in debt. They have been robbed, and now the people who robbed them want some more of that action.

The investors don't get paid. They gambled, they played funny games, they lose. Too bad we didn't take to the streets here and say "no!" the way the Greek people are.

The working people have already paid - thew workers are the source of all of the wealth in the country, the only source. It all belongs to them - always did. There is nothing to "bail out" anymore than there was anything to "bail out" when we did it here.

The Greek economy has been driven into the toilet so that debt slavery could be imposed on the people there - that is how the IMF figures into this, and that is why people are telling you to educate yourself about the IMF.

They're about to default on their public debt. Do you have even the smallest clue of how bad that is?

And here again I will say, for the record, we have yet another post that names no names, specifies no specifics, nor in any way even vaguely tries to explain who or what got the Greek government into this situation.

Also, you make the even more ridiculous error of conflating the Greek economy with Greek public debt. Their economy is not in the shithole. Their economy is relatively fine, all things considered. It's their public debt that is the problem. Government spending is not the same thing as the Greek economy.

We have been over your "name names" thing. It is a nonsensical question, as I explained.

I don't know where you are going now with your "government spending is not the same thing as the Greek economy" line of argument. Who said it was?

I want an explanation of how Greece can maintain its current level of spending without causing serious hardship for its population. If you cannot give me a reasonable answer for this question then you are not addressing the problem, and are casting aspersions at third parties.

Your questions are loaded and prejudicial.

It is not that people are not answering your questions, rather that they are refusing to accept the framing of the issue that you are trying to force on us.

would more than likely prefer to have been bailed out by anyone, including your snarky list of possibilities. It is because of the harm they have done, especially to the poor in so many countries, that they have been forced to at least act as though they have reformed themselves.

No matter what Greece does at this point, life is not going to be easy for them. Paul Krugman eg, had some suggestions along with several other economists. Nearly all agreed that the IMF bailout is probably their worst choice among some very bad choices.

Their government found the money, like ours, to bail out their banks, which like ours, should have allowed to fail. And don't bother claiming there was no choice. It didn't work, did it? But their government, like ours, couldn't find the money to bail out Main St.

Goldman Sachs helped Greece to hide its debt, pushing the problem into the future, and in fact making it worse. Doing that is now illegal, although it wasn't at the time. But, as has been said 'It broke the spirit of the agreement to keep debt below a certain level'. To expect ethical beharior from Goldman Sachs especially when they find a compliant government, like ours and apparently like Greece's, would be like expecting an elephant to lay an egg.

Blaming the working class for what caused the total collapse of the economy should be left to rightwingers.

As far as a solution, they might consider doing what Venezuela and Argentina have done. First accept no debt from the IMF. That won't solve their problems anyhow. Expose the speculators who have been betting on their failure and start working to make this practice illegal, at least in Europe, we are too cravenly addicted to gambling here to even think of it.

Then they need to leave the EU which has restricted their ability to export goods. Change the government asap, as they did in Iceland. And yes, they will have to accept cuts everywhere for a while, but at least they will remain a free country. The EU has failed, it has benefited only a few countries, like Germany with only short term gains to others. Maybe if Greece leads the way, other countries will follow. European countries managed well enough before this hair-brained idea came about and many countries were against it. Now we see why.

Germany will then have to share exportation rights with other countries and faced with that prospect, who knows, maybe the EU will step forward, Germany included and help. The same government that bailed the banks out and caused this problem, are now making a deal with the IMF. No wonder the people of Greece are outraged.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/opinion/07krugman.html

There's an alternative intelligent solution.

over and over BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING!!!!!! Except now they're doing it to European countries rather than South American banana republics. And soon it'll be happening here. It's the same MO that the international cartel of bankers has used in the past to push their brand of greedy, rapacious, unregulated capitalism. The goal is to dismantle ALL social programs and turn the entire world's workers into their personal slave pen. And it was documented in Naomi Klein's book.

Which "they" are you talking about? What international cartel of bankers did this? Can you name a single entity with some responsibility in this area other than the government of Greece? The only one I can think of is Goldman Sachs, but they were helping Greece cover up the problem created by the Greek government, not forcing them into more debt. Your argument would have a hell of a lot more validity if you could actually name some entity, any entity for which there is a demonstrable responsibility for this problem. Otherwise it's just so much prattle.

Venezuela, one of the first Chavez did was to pay off Ven. debt to the World Bank, and that is one reason why they hate him.

Now, they are in Europe. Greece should have threatened to default on their debt, to drop out of the restrictive EU and do what Chavez did, turn to Russia and South America if they needed it. Once out of the EU they can start exporting again, which they are restricted from doing as part of the EU.

if their country defaults.

They have alternatives which are much better than the shit sandwich the IMF wants to force them to eat.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9544

Rising wages, huge export surplus, IMF paid off, American banks out, growing GDP.

The American people are being prepped now for their new austerity program and many who will be targeted are defending those working on it now. Some here on DU.

:silly:

please go away

:eyes:

It sounds like the population in Greece cheats on taxes just as much as the Corporations in America

They're all angry because the nanny state is reduced to cut benefits because they're evading their tax responsibilities.

* Public sector pay to be frozen till 2014;
* Public sector salary bonuses – equivalent to two months’ extra pay – to be scrapped or capped;
* Public sector allowances to be cut by 20%;
* State pensions to be frozen or cut, with the contribution period up from 37 to 40 years;
* The average retirement age raised from 61 to 63, and early retirement restricted;
* VAT to be increased from 19% to 23%;
* Taxes on fuel, alcohol and tobacco raised to 10%;
* A new one-off tax on profits to be introduced, plus new gambling, property and green taxes.


see bemildred's thread:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x534438

Propaganda only works as an argument until it is exposed for the steaming pile of BS it is.

The only possible response after that is:

I figured that sooner or later someone would figure out a way to blame the working class for the trouble in Greece. There sure is a nasty little authoritarian faction within the Democratic party that consistently and reliably defends the interests of the owners and the wealthy and attacks the working class.

The Republicans are clear where they stand, whose side they are on, whose interests they represent, and are relentless and consistent in advancing the needs and desires of the wealthy few, and they get results despite the fact that they are working against the best interests of 90% of the people.

You will never see the owners attacked among right wingers the way that the working class is routinely attacked here - every hour, every day, on almost every thread. Nothing is a bigger threat to the future of the Democratic party, not to mention to all of us and to all working class people.

But that's what you're taking from it.

Taxes MUST be paid to support the myriad social programs in a country like Greece. If they aren't paid there is nothing to fund these social safety nets but more debt (IMF or otherwise.)

I care not which class you belong to, if you legally owe taxes you should pay them.

The original post does not mention class warfare.

But I know firsthand how business is done in Greece, and if we did the same here there would be NO money in the Federal budget.

Pay your taxes and everyone benefits.

Quite a few posters think that was the point of the OP, and are bust following your lead and attacking the working class. You had better straighten them out, then.

I have appreciated your posts the last few days.

So you work for Goldman Sachs?

:rofl:

Such pithy nonsense.

You copy/paste a bunch of MSM nonsense and then act like you are an insider who "knows something", with little more content to share beyond the Propaganda you posted other than tired one-liners.

I guess Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and the REST of the Eastern Block are all Tax Cheats too?

Please, just STOP.

"Greece!!!!!!11111 Those Dirty TAX CHEATERS!!!11111111 Destroying Us All!!!!!1111111"

Isn't it interesting how Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and the rest of the EASTERN BLOCK are ALWAYS left out of the discussion?

If that Propaganda piece someone posted earlier today about 2 Million Jobs being created in April has a HINT of reality or Truth to it, maybe I know where a great many of these low-wage jobs are coming from.

People getting paid to sit on their asses and Post this Drivel on Sites like ours all day.

The People CANNOT be allowed to think for themselves.

They MUST tow the Propaganda line.

This is just childish.

Amerika.

Now Just Like The Soviet Union You Love And Remember.....But With Better TV!!!!!

Economy shrank 18%, unemployment over 20% --


but the banksters get their money.

posted on this a few days ago, no response.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/marketwatch-view-latvia-austerity-program-gets-mixed-reviews/

Economic reality of any kind is fast becoming verboten on DU.

:rofl:

Divide and conquer's the name of the game.

Sell it somewhere else.

:kick: & U

in order to turn their country around as a whole.

But in order to fix their issues, they are going to have to make some sacrifices.

Why can't they be more like us - nice compliant little shills and mouthpieces for corporate interests, traitors to our own class, smug and arrogant and so special?

Have you seem their GDP and their economy?? Apparently not.

And, and welfare queens, and an elete corps of impudent snobs... yeah, that's the ticket.

Oh brother.:thumbsdown: :sarcasm: :yoiks:

And obese. Drinking that soda pop and eating junk food - you know how "they" are. Bet they are having children, too. We have already established that they are "illegal" - tax cheats - and lazy and all of the rest, like all working people. Probably dirty, too.

They made the wrong choices, and now must pay the penalty.

I say we round them all up and send them back where they came from.

Why can't all of "those people" be more like us?

Greeks, Can't trust em, can't trust their salads.

The Teabaggers are not in danger of losing their standard of living.

to this article appear to go as far as "They're criticising the little people - they must be wrong! Teh banksters!"

And I'll put money on money on the fact that 90% of the critics have absolutely no knowledge of the Greek economy at all. Its threads like these that make me realise that a large number of people who share my left-liberal values are partisan thinkers first and rational second, sadly.

There is massive evidence which can be corroborated from multiple sources that the combination of a culture of tax evasion and extraordinarily high percentage of employment in the public sector is a major driver of the present debt crisis in Greece.

What's especially dissapointing is that so many apparently lack the facility to step out of the either-or frame and realise the perfectly obvious fact that it could be an "and" situation. As in, the Greek debt crisis is the fruit of a culture of tax evasion, poor enforcement, a massive public sector, a small private economy that produces little compared to other OECD states AND opportunistic politicians aided in hiding their ever growing debt by Goldman-Sachs, et al. Unbelievable. I find the knee-jerk responses here sorely disappointing and sophomoric in the extent of their reasoning.

You mock people for taking a stand with the working people? You call what people are posting here knee jerk responses? Some sport of prejudice against the wealthy, against the investors and bankers? We are awash in a sea of pro-owner propaganda, working people have little or no voice and little or no power. All of the corporate media propaganda is knee-jerk anti-worker hatred. And you have the nerve to suggest that it is the other way around?

I have many relatives in Greece and am very familiar with the economy and history.

I would love to step out of the either/or frame, wouldn't you? It is unfortunate that the wealthy are waging all out war against the working people, so we are trapped in that either/or frame and have no choice but to fight back.

Yes, this is being repeated in corporate media in the US, UK and Germany ad nauseum - "a culture of tax evasion, poor enforcement, a massive public sector, a small private economy that produces little.."

You mockingly and derisively say "they're criticising the little people - they must be wrong!"

Yes. The relentless and vicious attacks on the working people, the poor people, the people with the least power, here and everywhere else, must be wrong.

Yes. That is what I say. I have no idea what world you live in, where that stand would seem absurd or inappropriate.

assuming you live in the states, for others its more of a light drizzle. In my experience, the European press is considerably less servile to corporate interests (probably why socialism isn't such a scare word). And its obvious to me that a lot of Americans cannot parse the internal dynamics of other countries (even those "they've got relatives in") without presuming an American frame. Greece has a Socialist government FFS. And with something like 40% of the country employed by the government, its practically a welfare state. The tax figures don't lie either. So yes, I mock people, because even your response comes across as the angry polemic of an ideologue who has little or no interest in available facts.

And I have dozens of Greek friends, some of whom are recently returned from Greece, most of whom are social democrats, all of them VERY political (my best friend is Greek and we've wiled away countless hours talking politics) and all of whom concur with the opinion voiced above. In fact one anarchist vegan Greek woman I know, who fights tooth and nail with people who suggest ongoing poverty in this country (South Africa) is the fault of the poor, went substantially further recently, saying Greek society was rotten with entitlement. I'm on the extreme left of the American spectrum and have no problem accepting that the rich are waging war on the poor, quite successfully in many places (like the USA). I just think a one-size-fits-all-hands-around-the-world-in-solidarity approach to political and social analysis isn't particularly bright.

ETA: Look up "Mockery" in a dictionary. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

Yes, I notice that "Greece has a socialist government" keeps getting repeated an repeated in the news stories.

Yes, we are awash here in "a sea of pro-owner propaganda."

I have been talking politics with friends and relatives from Greece for over 40 years. How is that a joke, and your conversations with your friends are not? Oh, right, I am a colonial and you are a sophisticated European.

I am not so much talking about the European press as I am the UK media. Of course the European press is less servile to corporate interests than the American press - by far. That isn't saying much.

"Angry polemic of an ideologue?" LOL. Sure, that must be it.

International working class solidarity "isn't particularly bright?" Good grief. Out of fashion in your social circles, is it? And yet you claim to be "on the extreme left of the American spectrum."

"Mock" means "treat with contempt." And your point was?

:eyes:

Nothing more, nothig less. :shrug:

There were considerably less replies on this thread. And I may have missed one or two *blush*

Here is a different view of the crisis, from a point of view that is not right of center.

From the New York Times, about the austerity measures...



Regressive taxation is what is being proposed. Do we have Democrats here who support regressive taxation?

And I wonder what comes next to "save" the Greek economy? Privatization! Surprise, surprise.

From the Gerson Lehrman Group -



Are there Democrats here who support privatization?

From an article by Jeffrey Kaye -





The Greek working people are saying something that we here should be saying:

"Let the plutocracy pay. Why should we, the working people, pay for this crisis?"

this isn't anything like the Shock Doctrine. Bullshit. The IMF is doing EXACTLY what they did in South America during the 70s/80s.

.... I suggest you look a little closer to home.

The Greek working people have been saddled with an increasing tax burden in the form of regressive taxation, just as has been happening here. Privatization, and elimination of barriers to an influx of investment capital were eliminated. This is parallel to the de-regulation of the financial industry here. This led to declining wages and job losses, just as it did here. Unleash investment capital, and the working people will suffer. Of course. That is the plan from the start. The Greek working people are paying higher taxes, and working more hours, and are more productive than ever. The wealthy investors blew up the economy, and now want the working people to bail them out.

The crisis was not caused by "tax cheats" because regressive taxes are difficult or impossible to evade, and besides the revenue figures show that the Greek government has been receiving revenue at a greater rate than the US government has. Taxes on the wealthy, progressive taxes are the ones that are easy to evade.

We all know - we should all know - from our experience here that de-regulating and unleashing investment capital, that privatization, does not work for 90% of the people and only benefits the few - the very people who happen to be financing the political campaigns, controlling the media, and whispering in everyone's ear about how great it was all going to be for all of us. We also know what happens - we all get screwed and the whole thing blows up and then the high rollers come back to the working people demanding massive handouts - or else! "Your paycheck will bounce, ATMs won't work, cats and dogs will be sleeping together! Fork over all your money and no one gets hurt!" Now that the economy - the REAL economy, the economy of the working people, not the economy of the wealthy and the investors - is still in the toilet, the Wall Street bail out apologists say "if not for the bail out, things would be even worse now!!!"

In Greece today, as was the case here when we were all being pressured to bail out Wall Street, there is some sort of urgency to quickly pass the IMF bail out. "It is an emergency! we must act quickly or else! No time to think! No time for hesitation! Sign here!"

Then once it all goes to Hell - as of course it will - then we hear renewed calls for privatization and regressive taxes, calls for more public funds to be poured into the pockets of the wealthy, and lots of bullshit talk about what is wrong with the working people - they are lazy, making the wrong choices, looking for a handout, cheating, stupid, ignorant, etc. Then scapegoating can start, which is consistent with blaming the least powerful, the most vulnerable, leading to police state actions such as persecution, harassment, suspicion and snitching, hatred and bigotry, mass round ups, detentions, internment, and expulsions. Exactly that is happening right here right now in this country, and we have people here everyday cheering that on. I said police state actions such as persecution, harassment, suspicion and snitching, hatred and bigotry, mass round ups, detentions, internment and expulsions are happening right here right now in this country. Let that sentence sink in. I am also saying that this is part of a consistent pattern of blaming and attacking working class people. Almost all of us here (I assume) are working class people, so this places us all at grave risk.

If the cruelty, the brutality and the resultant costs in human misery were not bad enough, the lying about it, the calculated and cynical deception and misdirection really adds insult to injury, doesn't it? Yet right here we have working class Democrats spreading those lies.

Greeks don't want to ruin their lives just to pay foreign bankers.

Goldman Sachs betting on Greek Collapse

Banks Bet Greece Defaults on Debt They Helped Hide

By NELSON D. SCHWARTZ and ERIC DASH
February 24, 2010
The New York Times

Bets by some of the same banks that helped Greece shroud its mounting debts may actually now be pushing the nation closer to the brink of financial ruin.

Echoing the kind of trades that nearly toppled the American International Group, the increasingly popular insurance against the risk of a Greek default is making it harder for Athens to raise the money it needs to pay its bills, according to traders and money managers. These contracts, known as credit-default swaps, effectively let banks and hedge funds wager on the financial equivalent of a four-alarm fire: a default by a company or, in the case of Greece, an entire country. If Greece reneges on its debts, traders who own these swaps stand to profit.

"It's like buying fire insurance on your neighbor's house — you create an incentive to burn down the house," said Philip Gisdakis, head of credit strategy at UniCredit in Munich.

As Greece’s financial condition has worsened, undermining the euro, the role of Goldman Sachs and other major banks in masking the true extent of the country's problems has drawn criticism from European leaders. But even before that issue became apparent, a little-known company backed by Goldman, JP Morgan Chase and about a dozen other banks had created an index that enabled market players to bet on whether Greece and other European nations would go bust.

Last September, the company, the Markit Group of London, introduced the iTraxx SovX Western Europe index, which is based on such swaps and let traders gamble on Greece shortly before the crisis. Such derivatives have assumed an outsize role in Europe's debt crisis, as traders focus on their daily gyrations. A result, some traders say, is a vicious circle. As banks and others rush into these swaps, the cost of insuring Greece's debt rises. Alarmed by that bearish signal, bond investors then shun Greek bonds, making it harder for the country to borrow. That, in turn, adds to the anxiety — and the whole thing starts over again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/business/global/25swaps.html

Goldman's Role in Greek Crisis Is Proving Too Ugly to Ignore

Goldman Sachs appears to be testing the limits of its special talent for avoiding all accountability following revelations of its role in exacerbating the Greek debt crisis.

The bank has come under heavy criticism from European political officials over its role in helping Greece hide its debts, and on Wednesday, Greek labor unions staged a historic strike that shut down the country's national infrastructure in response to economic policies urged by bankster elites. The European turmoil has forced US officials to take notice, and scrutiny of the bank is now coming from the unlikeliest of quarters, with Ben Bernanke telling Congress on Thursday that the Federal Reserve is looking into Goldman and questions surrounding the bank's swap transactions with Greece.

Bernanke was vague about what, exactly, the Fed is investigating, and it is possible that the inquiry will go nowhere. But the fact that the Fed chair would make remarks that amplify concerns about Goldman's role in Europe is a sign that the political winds have shifted significantly since Matt Taibbi's "vampire squid" metaphor first captured the public imagination last summer. The populist outcry against bankster fraud and collusion finally shows signs of steering the authorities towards a more oppositional, watchdog role.

The truly scandalous story with respect to Goldman Sachs and Greece -- that the bank may have been speculating heavily in the Greek debt markets at the same time it was trying to help the country hide its debt -- is also starting to gain traction. During his testimony, Bernanke raised concerns about speculative activity in the Greek debt markets and said that the SEC was investigating, and Phil Angelides, chair of the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission, said that he was particularly concerned about Goldman's role in betting against securities that it had helped create.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-connor/goldmans-role-in-greek-cr_b_479511.html

Goldman Sachs Shorted Greek Debt After It Arranged Those Shady Swaps

Goldman Sachs arranged swaps that effectively allowed Greece to borrow 1 billion Euros without adding to its official public debt. While it arranged the swaps, Goldman also sought to buy insurance
on Greek debt and engage in other trades to protect itself against the risk of a default on those swaps. Eventually, Goldman sold the swaps to the national bank of Greece.

Despite its role in creating swaps that may have allowed the Greek government to mask its growing debts, Goldman has no net exposure to a default on Greek debt, a person familiar with the matter says. Goldman is "flat" when it comes to Greece, the person said. Which is to say, its long and short exposure to a potential Greek default are in balance.

In light of this combination of arranging structured financing while shorting the customer's debt, Goldman may find itself in a familiarly uncomfortable public light. Goldman has come under a barrage of criticism for structuring mortgage backed securities while its traders shorted that market. As a result of those short trades, Goldman lost far less money than its rivals when the US housing market imploded.

Something similar is at work here and the criticism will likely follow along the same track. Goldman was uniquely well-positioned to understand that Greek debt service obligations were higher than they would have appeared just by looking at its official debt levels, making Greece a riskier credit. This knowledge may have allowed Goldman to acquire credit protection on the trades
on the cheap.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-shorted-greek-debt-after-it-arranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2#ixzz0namevTsv

and took their money with them. There are many other Greeks who also have moderate wealth who by and large abuse the tax system there. As usual, its the very wealthy and moderately wealthy who have taken their money and either left or completely abuse the system.

If you look at income distribution in Greece, it is mathematically impossible that the lower class Greek workers and government employees dont contribute enough. Thats a lie.

Its right wing talking points that taxi drivers, for example, make lots of money that they dont report. Its well off and wealthy Greeks that have several homes and other assets that vastly underreport. The people that are rioting are largely lower class and poorer citizens. Blaming the guy who makes the equivalent of $20,000 for not paying his fair share is utter dishonesty and false information.