Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

20 Students Wearing "Border Patrol" shirts on Cinco De Mayo asked to remove them

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:05 PM
Original message
20 Students Wearing "Border Patrol" shirts on Cinco De Mayo asked to remove them
"About 20 students showed up at Pioneer High School wearing "Border Patrol" T-shirts. By the end of the day, administrators asked them to remove the shirts, which they apparently did with no problems, according to Karen Fuqua, spokeswoman for the San Jose Unified School District"

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15030582?nclick_check=1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Okay, forget US flags, THAT is fucked up. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Freedom of Speech, no?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. More likely for their own protection
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
130. So your are claiming that it would incite violence. Isn't that low an opinion of potential
offendees racist in its own right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #130
205. Some people want to blow right past the fashion police to the fashion executioners.
One wrong outfit and it's off with your head! You see the problem is that we don't enough piss poor excuses for violence. So we're going to create another one. If people don't like the way you're dressed. They have the right to beat you up.

:eyes:

For the Sarcasm Challenged: :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
29. High school students do not have the same 1st Amendment rights
as adults do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
166. They don't but they have rights.
In Tinker (1969) , perhaps the best known of the Court's student expression cases, the Court found that the First Amendment protected the right of high school students to wear black armbands in a public high school, as a form of protest against the Viet Nam War. The Court ruled that this symbolic speech--"closely akin to pure speech"--could only be prohibited by school administrators if they could show that it would cause a substantial disruption of the school's educational mission.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
54. That seems like an intent to be offensive and possibly incite violence. Students may expect
school to be a place where they aren't intimidated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. There is no right to not be offended.
Incitement to violence is not protected, if there's also immediacy and likelihood.

ie, I can say "Rush Limpballs should be shot" or "Someone should shoot Rush", but not "Rush lives at 123 elm street, the code for the security system at his house is 12345, go shoot him."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. Expressions of RACISM are not welcome in public schools
whether they are "legal" or not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. Welcome? No. Protected? Often, yes.
To rise to the level of discrimination, objectionable speech must create a "hostile environment." Under Supreme Court decisions, reflected in guidelines issued by the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights, discrimination occurs only when harassment is so "severe, persistent, or pervasive that it adversely affects a student’s education or creates a hostile or abusive educational environment." Age and maturity of students is also relevant. For example, under the DOE Guidelines, "a kiss on the cheek by a first grader does not constitute sexual harassment."


http://www.ncac.org/First-Amendment-Schools/harassment
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. So why is this legal argument important to you?
Is that your standard for behavior in social groups, what is legal?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. I support speech that is legal, yes.
Even speech that I despise.

Because that is the cost for having the same protection for speech that I agree with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Which neatly avoids the question of what social behavior is.
A lot of anti-social behavior is legal. That's a pretty low standard.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. What people _should_ not do is quite different than what people _must_ not do.
I can see the difference.

Can you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #87
100. Precisely. The law doesn't describe a standard of good behavior.
It describes behavior that is so bad that the actor needs an intervention for the good of himself or the group.

So, saying that this behavior is legal doesn't really say very much, does it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. It only says that it's protected, and can't be cause for punishment.
Had the vice principal used it as a teaching moment about how rights work, how we have to put up with the bad to protect the good, it could have been positive. It would have shamed the idiots while educating everyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. Right. I don't think telling students in an eastside high school
Edited on Fri May-07-10 01:38 PM by EFerrari
that they have to "put up" with racism is a particularly valuable lesson. In fact, what it teaches is that as long as what you do is "legal", it doesn't matter how much you hurt your community. A standard of ethics so low that you have to bend down to see it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. Rather wrap them in cotton wool and tell them the world will always be fair?
Better to treat it as a civics lesson.

Hell, we tackled harder subjects on the debate team.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. Between enduring blatant racism and being wrapped in cotton
there is civil society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #113
174. Knowing the difference, and being able to deal with it is one thing that school can teach, yes. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #86
138. Schools are not there to teach social graces. Trying to have them do so has never worked
Mostly because in that age group rebellion and questioning rules and roles is the norm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
137. Its the decision of what is racist and what is not is the real problem
If you allow Blue Pride Shirts, you have to allow Green Pride shirts. You do not have to allow Blue Sucks or Green is Superior shirts. Schools have already lost on that in the courts. Substitute for colors, genders, sexual orientation of your choice, but it still holds true. If Mexican Pride shirts are OK, so are expressions of American pride or any other nationalistic pride for that matter. If Gay Pride is allowed, then so is Straight Pride (been thru the courts). If Girl Power is OK then Boy Power has to be to.

If you ban symbol X as intimidating, you have to honor it when someone else claims symbol Y is intimidating. That is happening more and more. If you ban the 2nd Confederate Naval Jack (what the ill informed call the Confederate Flag) what do you do when a non-black person wants the African National flag banned http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-African_flag (this has actually happened)? What if a non-hispanic student claims they feel intimidated at the school by all the Mexican flags? Should they be banned as well?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheMightyFavog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. For some reason this "prank" sounds like the kind of fuckwittery seen on the /b/ forum of 4chan.
End of Line.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. But they're just expressing their love for the border patrol.
My ancestors didn't fight the War of 1812 so that kids in school couldn't intimidate minorities show their love and appreciation for the border patrol.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. LOL!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
73. .
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
185. But of course. That's what they want to be when they grow up!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. Rethughlican Larvae nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yup, still protected speech, IMHO. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:17 PM
Original message
yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater .. .
yelling out racial epithets -

are those protected speech?

And yeah, it's the same thing... Deliberately provoking confrontation...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. racial epithets are definitely protected speech...
inciting panic is not...

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes, the first amendment is not unlimited
Edited on Thu May-06-10 05:49 PM by X_Digger
(And for future reference, it's "falsely yelling FIRE in a crowded theater". One would assume that yelling FIRE when there actually is one is perfectly acceptable.)

Yelling "my blue boxer shorts" (or anything else) can be construed as disturbing the peace. However, using racial slurs in and of itself is protected speech.

However, neither of those is applicable to the current case.

Here's the prevailing precedent on free speech at schools concerning clothing-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District

"The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom--this kind of openness--that is <509> the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.

In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school," the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Agreed
Offensive speech is what the First Amendment intended to protect. Let it reflect on those who express it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. It's easy to support the first amendment for speech you agree with.
The true test is supporting its application for speech you despise.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
55. Schools are expected to provide a safe environment for ALL students. What part of that
don't some DU'ers get?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. How does wearing any particular flag endanger safety? n/t
Edited on Fri May-07-10 09:45 AM by X_Digger
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
npk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #61
136. That is a tough one I know
:rofl:

Sometimes you have to understand who you arguing with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Actually, it was created so that people can air their grievances
with the government without censorship or reprisal. That is a difference from saying anything regardless of circumstance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
208. And perhaps their grievance
was that they felt they should be able to express their Americanness on a day that has been hijacked by Mexican beer companies to sell more fizzy yellow piss water.

Clearly, the First Amendment has evolved to include much more than worrying about if your petition or newspaper pisses off King George.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dems_rightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. Protected.... sure
In another setting. If I choose to walk down the street with that on... it's protected.

Certainly in a school, they have the right to say what's appropriate, and what causes problems. And the ability to enforce it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Not really, see the Tinker case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District

"The court's 7 to 2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. Justice Abe Fortas wrote the majority opinion, holding that the speech regulation at issue in Tinker was "based upon an urgent wish to avoid the controversy which might result from the expression, even by the silent symbol of armbands, of opposition to this Nation's part in the conflagration in Vietnam." The Court held that in order for school officials to justify censoring speech, they "must be able to show that action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint," allowing schools to forbid conduct that would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school."<1> The Court found that the actions of the Tinkers in wearing armbands did not cause disruption and held that their activity represented constitutionally protected symbolic speech."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
59. Protecting a certain segment from intimidation is within the scope of a school's administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. Please define intimidation.
The closest I can find for such authority is Title VII and 'hostile environment', but even then, cases have ruled that limited utterances of offensive speech in and of itself does not constitute harassment under that section. See Henson v. City of Dundee
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. The problem is what constitutes intimidation.
If symbol X is banned since someone claims its intimidation, then if someone else claims that symbol Y intimidates them, does it get banned too?

I've seen that approach used on a reducto ad adsurdum level and the school basically ban all words and symbols on shirts except commercial logo. Then a kid wore a shirt with a commercial logo that included the 2nd Confederate Navy Jack (what the ill informed call the Confederate flag).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. And if they had shown up wearing shirts that said
"We support illegal immigration", what would the appropriate response have been?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Well, that wouldn't be racist.
So I wouldn't see a problem with it.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Was either set of shirts really racist or just varying degrees of tacky?
Schools often have capricious enforcement of what is considered disruptive. There is no right not to be offended and we should be teaching young people to deal with such idiots, and not treat them as delicate flowers that might wilt in the presence of stupid/tacky/ obnoxious speech. Otherwise we enable and make acceptable the hecklers veto. The only other approach is uniforms which have their own set of issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
28. How is border patrol racist? Could refer to Canada's border, or coastline border
Or is ok for people assume it refers to People south of the border?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Yes, absolutely, these fine young gentlemen
were NOT making a statement about illegal Mexicans. No way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. So what if they were
Its not hate speech, its not advocating illegal behavior or illegal drugs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. Disruption to the school day
The SCOTUS says the school can take away rights for that purpose.

What if the shirts had said "Go home you dirty Mexicans, this is my country"? Because I feel that was the clear subtext of what they were doing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Actually, read tinker and following cases..
The court's 7 to 2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. Justice Abe Fortas wrote the majority opinion, holding that the speech regulation at issue in Tinker was "based upon an urgent wish to avoid the controversy which might result from the expression, even by the silent symbol of armbands, of opposition to this Nation's part in the conflagration in Vietnam." The Court held that in order for school officials to justify censoring speech, they "must be able to show that action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint," allowing schools to forbid conduct that would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school."<1> The Court found that the actions of the Tinkers in wearing armbands did not cause disruption and held that their activity represented constitutionally protected symbolic speech.


http://www.oyez.org/cases/case/?case=1960-1969/1968/1968_21
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=393&invol=503
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Yes
Key being "the actions of the Tinkers in wearing armbands did not cause disruption and held that their activity represented constitutionally protected symbolic speech." The administration felt that this could cause a disruption. Certainly the white flag wearers can take this to court and the court will decide if it was a possible disruption.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Let me expand..
The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom - this kind of openness - that is <393 U.S. 503, 509> the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.

In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school," the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. What about this nugget you didn't bold
"Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear." Tinker is talking about protecting the minority. In this instance, the white kids aren't the minority.

Certainly you aren't claiming that a school has to wait for violence to occur (which, again, was never a claim in anything related to this instance) before the can do something. Certainly a school has a right to stop racism, yes? Bullying? Or should the victims of bullies just suck it up and deal with it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. Protected speech is protected speech.
Unless it significantly interferes with the operation of the school (such as a protest blocking the halls), or promotes illegal activity (bong hits for jesus- I don't agree with this one, but it's the precedent), etc then it can't be stopped.

Another case for perusal is Walker v Ford

This court recognized in Henson that "the mere utterance of an ethnic or racial epithet which engenders offensive feelings in an employee 'does not rise to a Title VII violation.' For ( ) harassment to state a claim under Title VII, it must be sufficiently pervasive so as to alter the conditions of employment and create an abusive working environment."


This case was about employment, but the 'hostile environment' standard has been applied to schools as well.

"Stopping racism" is an educational mandate, but it can't override free speech in a school unless it meets the Tinker standard, or the preponderance of evidence would lead the court to believe that there exists a hostile environment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. But schools can ban more than that
There are cases that support schools banning of baggy jeans, the Confederate flag, a shirt with "Drugs Suck" because "suck" was interpreted as being vulgar, can't wear tobacco or alcohol shirts, 9th Circuit said a school can prohibit a t-shirt with "homosexuality is shameful" on it when the kid wore it on the day of silence.

It's not all as clear as you are attempting to make it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. You're right, I'm leaving out a lot of cases- because the precedent they set doesn't apply--
Edited on Fri May-07-10 09:54 AM by X_Digger
There are cases relating to speech that advocates illegal activity- this one doesn't.
There are cases relating to speech that relate to dress codes- this school doesn't have one.
There are cases relating to systematic offensive speech that contributes to harassment based on race- this one doesn't, nor is this speech more than one event.

eta: fat fingers (no, I didn't type 'billion' instead of 'million', lol)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #40
48.  If its not attack language, or clear double entendre the school should not act
Edited on Fri May-07-10 09:17 AM by ProgressiveProfessor
Otherwise it becomes a very slippery slope that school admins have shown themselves totally unable to manage properly.

Subtext is subject to way too much interpretation. If you interpret those wearing flag shirts that way, it would be equally valid interpretation that those wearing Mexican flag shirts are saying "Go home you dirty gringos this is my country". If one is valid, the other is equally so. Is that where you want to go?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. But that is clearly not what was being said with the May 5th celebration
It was an identity of culture. People reacted negatively to that identity. Surely, we as a society can work against that lack of acceptance of culture. Look at what progressives are saying on the threads about these two instances. How many times have their been references to "Americans" while talking about the white students as if the Mexican students aren't American? How many times have people essentially (or literally in a couple instances) told the Mexican students to suck it up and deal with it? It seems very clear to me that these kids meant to intimidate. How many times in GD have people bitched about schools not doing enough to counteract bullying and now, when a school seems to be doing that, people bitch at them because it involves the American flag.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Again, you are interpreting subtext and intent
That is way too slippery a slope and the government, including schools, should stay out of that. To say that those shirts were bullying it way too big a stretch. Would they be bullying any other day? Why are Mexican flag shirts not bullying? Your approach becomes untenable in the larger case.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. Let's take your argument to the other extreme.
As long as there is never any physical violence, there is nothing a school can do to stop bullying. The actions of the bully can always be interpreted in a variety of ways as to intent. Short of punching someone in the face, the school is powerless. Certainly you, and society, don't want schools to react that way. So where is the line? Certainly schools need to deal with intent and subtext. You just don't seem to like this instance. Or can a kid just say "That's not what I meant" and walk away. Call the girl sitting next to you everyday a "skank bitch" and then tell the principal that you meant that as a compliment as they seem to mean in R&B songs and you can't be punished. Your argument, taken to the extreme, is rather untenable, as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. The example you gave is actually hate speech and can be legitimately controlled
Again if its not "attack words" or advocating illegal action, the school should be wary. If its political is already limited by Tinker. Arguably in both cases it could be considered political.

Another way to look at it is this:

If you allow Blue Pride Shirts, you have to allow Green Pride shirts.
You do not have to allow Blue Sucks or Green is superior shirts.
Schools have already lost on that in the courts.

If you ban symbol X as intimidating, you have to honor it when
someone else claims symbol Y is intimidating. That is happening
more and more.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. Disruption is not limited in scope to violence.
You're creating strawmen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. No, not a strawman
I wasn't talking about all disruption being violence. I was just taking that person's argument to the other extreme. If we can't judge an action on subtext and intent, then my scenario is as logical an extension as the extension of my argument.

What's your line, then. When can disruption be addressed and when should it be ignored? What about when it is about intimidation (read: bullying) as it seems to be in this case?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
112. When an actual disruption occurs.
Again, I've seen no evidence that there was a disruption in this case. I'm open to any evidence you may have.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Do these people get up in arms about the Canadian border? Ever?
We don't have a militant citizens playing at border patrol at the Canadian border for obvious reasons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. the obvious reason being that
canadians are not flooding over it without documentation
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. And they are white. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #41
72. and speak English...
... and can integrate into American culture...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
175. The obvious reason being most Canadians are white.
I never hear any uproar about the illegal aliens from Ireland either. Funny how that works.

Actually it's not funny at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
75. um, yeah, right
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
77. San Jose's Canadian population consists mainly of the Sharks' first line
on the other hand, we have a Consulado General de Mexico located right where you'd expect to find it, next to the Japantown light rail stop. :-)

So I think it's safe to assume that the refernce was to the southern border.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
120. It is reading minds
But we do know, don't we, that these bratty kids wanted the Hispanic students, some of them illegally in the U.S. perhaps, to feel that their classmates want them gone. This promotes conflict, so the school has some right to shut it down - like wearing gang colors, and things like that. They know there is going to be a flare up.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. I think offensive items can be banned within a school setting
I thought the American Flag stuff should've been permitted, even though the way they did it was extra classless.

But this is different. And schools do have more right to deal with this kind of stuff than out in public.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. The standards are so capricious that it makes defining offensive almost impossible
and makes riding the line an art form.

I've witnessed various forms of this kind of hysteria over the years. It gets harder and harder not to laugh at it. There is no right not to be offended. If a shirt does not attack another group, it should be allowed unless we want to strip all words and images off the clothes allowed in school. That is called uniforms and has its own problems.

No one has a right not to be offended, and some of the things people take offense at are just stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Bong hits for Jesus, baby
Edited on Fri May-07-10 03:29 AM by depakid
The US would be far better off with cool school uniforms.

Not that I would have said or even thought that even 10 years ago, but in the interim, I've had some time to both observe and interact first hand with two cultures- administrators, teachers, families and kids that it works with.

On balance, it seems to be the preferable way to go, both in terms of outcome measures- and also with respect to avoiding unnecessary problems.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
33. There is a very strong feeling against them in the US. Not sure why, but its widespread
In California the current law allows parents to opt their student out a mandatory uniform policy at public schools. One school tried to mandate a very strict dress code instead which was found by the court to be a defacto uniform.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
46. While I don't agree with the Bong Hits case..
.. this case doesn't cross into that case's precedent. That case relied on Morse v Frederick which limited the scope of speech that advocates illegal activity.

Wearing a flag does not promote / advocate illegal activity.

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District is the appropriate precedent-

The District Court recognized that the wearing of an armband for the purpose of expressing certain views is the type of symbolic act that is within the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. See West Virginia v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943); Stromberg v. California, 283 U.S. 359 (1931). Cf. Thornhill v. Alabama, 310 U.S. 88 (1940); Edwards v. South Carolina, 372 U.S. 229 (1963); Brown v. Louisiana, 383 U.S. 131 (1966). As we shall discuss, the wearing of armbands in the circumstances of this case was entirely divorced from actually or potentially disruptive conduct by those participating in it. It was closely akin to "pure speech" <393 U.S. 503, 506> which, we have repeatedly held, is entitled to comprehensive protection under the First Amendment. Cf. Cox v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 536, 555 (1965); Adderley v. Florida, 385 U.S. 39 (1966).

First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years. In Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390 (1923), and Bartels v. Iowa, 262 U.S. 404 (1923), this Court, in opinions by Mr. Justice McReynolds, held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment prevents States from forbidding the teaching of a foreign language to young students. Statutes to this effect, the Court held, unconstitutionally interfere with the liberty of teacher, student, and parent

<snip>

The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom - this kind of openness - that is <393 U.S. 503, 509> the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.

In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school," the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
179. One can argue that with the current makeup of the court, Tinker's no longer viable
though in the current case, the arguments re: promoting racism, creating a hostile environment with the potential for disruption and/or violence would be undermined by these 5 justice's propensity to engage in case specific and results oriented jurisprudence.

Some of the sophistry that's come out of the so called "conservatives" on the court over the past 15 years (and beyond) is enough to make one's head spin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #179
183. re hostile environment..
It has to be systematic, not just a single event. One event could be part of the evidence of a larger pattern, but taken singly, does not cross into Title VII protection. (See the Ford case mentioned elsewhere in this thread.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #179
191. You well may be right (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
revolution breeze Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
49. My daughters wear uniforms to school
I don't have to worry about tasteless tacky incidents like this and the kids in our school find better ways to express their individuality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. Is she in a California public school?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
revolution breeze Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
67. No we are in south Louisiana
A very racially diverse area.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #67
156. In CA parents can opt out of uniforms and schools can not create defacto uniforms via
dress codes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #67
186. Charter? or Public?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
revolution breeze Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #186
207. Public N/T
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. The link won't for me, but those kids sound pretty lame.
Looking forward to this though!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R10ljA0-sHs
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. Working Link HERE:
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15030582

(snip)
Five Morgan Hill high school student athletes are now entangled in a national debate over what they wore to school on Cinco de Mayo: shirts and shorts bearing the American flag.

An assistant principal at Live Oak High School asked the teens Wednesday to turn their T-shirts inside out or go home because the red-white-and-blue garb was "incendiary" on May 5. Many of the school's Latino students — 39.9 percent of the Live Oak student body — were celebrating the unlikely defeat of the Mexican army over French forces in 1862 by wearing Mexico's colors of red, white and green.

Three boys left campus because they found the other option to be "disrespectful" to the flag, and two remained in school anyway, without changing, some of their parents said.

(snip)

This wasn't the only symbolic protest on Cinco de Mayo. About 20 students showed up at Pioneer High School wearing "Border Patrol" T-shirts. By the end of the day, administrators asked them to remove the shirts, which they apparently did with no problems, according to Karen Fuqua, spokeswoman for the San Jose Unified School District.

(snip)



...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
20. Let 'em wear 'em.
Makes it even easier to identify the scumbags.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
36. I ptretty much feel the same way
If some are offended, so what. There is no right not to be offended. The concern about violence is bogus
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
22. Why all the May 5 hoohah? Cinco de mayo is a MEXICAN holiday, not a US holiday.
If anybody here wants to celebrate it, that's their business. It's not the government's (or, by extension, any public school's) business.

Or maybe we should appeal to Mexico to disallow its citizens any display of national pride on July 4th?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. The school has obligations to those that are in their care.
And Cinco de Mayo is pretty much an American holiday. Most Mexicans I have talked to indicate that it really isn't a big deal down there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. Its not even a Mexican holiday...
Its kind of like Mothers Day, pushed by commercial interests to increase consumption.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
74. I don't get it either
It seems really inappropriate to me for a US public school to be celebrating a Mexican nationalistic holiday just because they have a large minority of students of Mexican decent. I don't get this nationalistic pride in another nation anyway especially if you were born and raised in the US and it's just your ancestors that were from some other nation. For that matter, I don't get nationalistic pride at all, and that's one of the things that bugs me about Repubs... that flag waving "America is Number One" my country is better than your country crap.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
79. and St. Patrick's Day is an Irish holiday, not a US holiday
but plenty of folks and institutions here get involved with that as well ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. I have never heard of any students being kicked out of school for wearing
red, white and blue on St. Patrick's Day. Have you?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. I've heard of them getting in trouble for wearing orange
Edited on Fri May-07-10 12:53 PM by fishwax
But I was responding to the suggestion that government/schools shouldn't be involved in celebrations since it's not a US holiday.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #88
125. I was going to bring that up...I always wear orange on St Patricks Day
Its sort of a informal poll I do every year. Amazing how few people know what it means. I get the why aren't you wearing green comment but rarely do any ask if I understand the significance of Orange.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #79
167. St. Patrick's day has never been an exclusive Irish holiday
It's a Christian feast day of St. Patrick who was British and born of Roman parents. He was captured by Celtic raiders around the age of sixteen and brought to Ireland to work as a slave, after about six years he escaped and went back to Britain where he became a priest. At some point in his life he went back to Ireland to convert the Celtics to Christianity. He died in Ireland supposedly on March 17th sometime in the mid-400's, and is buried in northern Ireland where he did much of his missionary work.

Ireland embraced St. Patrick as one of its patron saints for his missionary work in Ireland converting Celtics to Christianity. Though many Protestant Irish do celebrate St. Patrick's Day many don't as they don't embrace Catholic saints (although at the time Roman Catholic was the only Christian faith). Many people in countries throughout Europe celebrated St. Patrick's Day and always did by religious tradition... celebrations of saints feast days were compulsory for all Christians throughout Europe right through the middle ages, and Christians brought that tradition into other lands. Celebrating St. Patrick's feast day was and is only more widely embraced by Ireland and those anywhere of Irish decent because of his missionary work in Ireland.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #167
176. And it is not a drunken orgy with green beer either
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #167
178. true -- but it is a national holiday and a solemnity in Ireland
And is overwhelmingly associated with Irish culture and the Irish diaspora. Also, celebration of saints feast days are only compulsory in some cases (otherwise Catholics would have to go to mass all the time), and in the case of Saint Patrick's Day is only a solemnity in Ireland. AFAIK, it hasn't ever been a day of obligation outside of Ireland.

Incidentally, Cinco de Mayo has never been an exclusive Mexican holiday either. It's been celebrated in California since 1863, the year after the battle it commemorates.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RonSunn Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
23. Guy on fox compared it to "Wearing your fave sports jersey"
I compare it to tea bag kids :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
102. Even a jersey can get you in trouble these days
Edited on Fri May-07-10 01:25 PM by KamaAina
a school in Louisiana had "Black and Gold Day" right before the Super Bowl. Wouldn't you know, they just happened to have a kid who had recently moved from Indiana, who insisted on wearing his Colts jersey!

The school wouldn't allow it; they said they'd made an exemption from their usual dress code for black and gold only, not blue and white.

The rest, of course, is history. I hope the kid didn't get bullied too much the next Monday...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
132. a guy on my news station asked a parent who
defended the kids "would it be alright if on Pearl Harbor day to wear a shirt with the Japanese flag on it?" The parent shut up, thought about it and said something to the effect of "well, when you put it that way...".

just goes to show me that it's not about free speech. It is about race.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #132
145. Interview with one of the "offended" students said dissed, not bullied or intimidated
There is no right not to be dissed just as there is no right not to be offended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MODem75 Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
26. I agree with the administrators
They don't want students intimidating minorities. The only reason they wore the shirts is because they are racists. That should never be tolerated at a school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. Why would
ANY US citizen, minority or not, be "intimidated" by somebody wearing a border patrol t-shirt?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. I can't believe the reaction of DU to these May 5th cases.
Are you seriously telling me that minorities should not feel a little threatened by whites making these statements? Are you seriously telling me that there isn't a good deal of racism underlying this? Don't you think this is an extension of the Tea Bag movement? Don't you read/see/hear all the violent messages of the Tea Baggers? Of course, some high school kid won't take that seriously ever and resort to violence against minorities.

Man, I just don't get it. The stuff being said about this sounds like rightwingers. I just don't get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #43
70. Right and when pushed on it, the response is always, "it's legal"
as if racism is somehow excusable if its expression is legal.

I bet there are people here who would defend kids in klan robes on MLK Day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
81. Neither can I. The level of hostility towards free speech is frightening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #81
93. Couple thoughts
1. speech is not unlimited.
2. speech of high school students is even more limited.

Should schools address issues of intimidation or not? What if the boys had been wearing Klan shirts on Martin Luther King day? Is that disruptive enough?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #93
162. And how would you compare
the reasons for existing of the Klan and the US Border Patrol? Essentially the same, or fundamentally different? And how does that affect your attempt at an analogy?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #81
106. Free speech is only one of the issues in these threads.
Edited on Fri May-07-10 02:22 PM by EFerrari
But it does seem, like "states rights", to be a favorite argument of people who have nothing to say about blatant racism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #106
111. Blatant racism is not an excuse to smother free speech
There are/were plenty of options for the administrators to address racism that don't involve punishing speech.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. And free speech was only one issue here.
But I am loving all you "free speech" advocates. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. Good on you.
Because when allow govt agents to censor speech based on what 'might' happen, we risk having our speech restricted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Aim low. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #117
122. So if Progressivism becomes socially unacceptable and makes kids sqeamish
It will be OK to censor that too? How about if a kid wears an Obama t-shirt that offends a teenbagger, should we make the kid remove his Obama t-shirt?

If you answer no to either question, you're a raving hypocrite and you would be precisely the reason why I speak out in protection of the speech rights of those that offend me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #122
143. You really don't understand the difference between social behavior
and anti-social behavior, do you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #143
146. That kind of judgement call is not your, mine, or the school's to make or enforce
If the school has to disallow anything that annoys/bothers/disses a student or group of students, where does it stop? There are some really prissy idiots on all sides of the spectrum
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #146
151. Oh, baloney. Btw, what you are calling "prissiness"
is usually called good manners by socialized people.

Where does it stop? When poor oppressed, bad mannered @ssholes learn how to behave in public?

LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #151
163. School are not mechanisms to enforce your or my standard of decorum
They need fixed, deterministic standards to operate from. What is offensive/insensitive/racist to one person may be fine to another. Who makes the call on that for the school. If shirts with US flags are banned since they offend some, what happens when some one complains that they are offended by shirts with Mexican flags.

As for prissiness, I have seen some doozies. One of the best was a parent who was seriously offended by what she called "racially inappropriate hairstyles" and claimed that those who did not support her were all racists.

I have also seen retribution claims in this area. After the 2nd Confederate naval jack (which the ill informed call the Confederate flag) was banned at a school, a group of parents went after the Rastafarian and pan African flags claiming they were symbols of intimidation and even drug use (Rastafarian). Others went after other symbols, including Mexican flags. Eventually the school quietly relented on the ban.

Yes it can get stupid very fast and that is what happens when one tries to dynamically enforce social standards in mixed groups
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #163
168. Oh, please. This relativistic argument is irresponsible.
Everything is not relative, like the universe as one of my students said some years ago.

There is such a thing as a community consensus and shared reality. There is such a thing as valuing your community reasonably. Anyone that can't grasp those simple ideas should probably not be teaching.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #168
177. I agree, that is why I support deterministic standards, not squishy capricious ones
Why you support the squishy ones is beyond me. Define a framework. Make the lines clear and well defined. Enforce them. Don't try to read subtexts, intent, hurt feelings etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #168
200. Consensus should be arrived at through reason and discussion, not suppression
Edited on Fri May-07-10 11:14 PM by Viking12
I pity your students.

Ed- sp
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
95. Are you seriously
telling me that an American citizen should feel threatened by someone wearing the American flag? That an American citizen should live in fear because someone wears a border patrol t-shirt? Get real.
I have marched for gay rights and against discrimination, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let a bunch of fearful people tell my kids they can't wear a t-shirt because it makes some people uncomfortable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Search DU for bullying
Go ahead, it's easy; it's right up in the corner.

People want schools to stop bullying; to stop intimidation.

Are you seriously telling me that the kids wearing the flag shirts and the border patrol shirts weren't trying to intimidate the Mexican/Hispanic students?

Do you support the 9th Circuit decision that the school could stop a kid from wearing a "homosexuality is shameful" shirt on the Day of Silence? It was meant to intimidate.

Like it or not, schools are charged with protecting the kids in their control. Stopping intimidation/bullying is part of that. This is a pretty clear case in my mind. Just because it involves flag waving makes them no less the bullies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #99
110. Bullying is valid point.
and I accept your example that the border patrol shirts could be viewed as intimidating by a weak person. Some American students of hispanic descent could have viewed it as such, even though they have no reason to fear the border patrol.

I do not accept that with the American flag shirts though and to say anybody can show their love of another country but not their own is wrong, under any setting.

No, I do not support a school not allowing a "homosexuality is shameful" shirt. It is no more intimidating than a "Gay Pride" or rainbow shirt. If you ban one, you ban them all and I cannot support that kind of authoritarian lifestyle.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #95
107. I think you've asked this question before and you've gotten an answer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #95
124. What is the point of wearing a border patrol T shirt?
A flag is pretty neutral, but the Border Patrol? Why would they be singled out for praise? I can only think of one reason.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #124
148. Do they need a reason?
I personally feel it was contrariness/look at me act than racism since most high school boys have minimal political views at that point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
180. "I can't believe the reaction of DU"
I can.

Anyone who is pretending that those stupid shirts weren't a childish statement aimed squarely at the illegal immigration debate in Arizona right now should spare their breath. And I also appreciate the administrators for telling the students to take them off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #180
193. The administrators have backed down and apologized on the flag shirts already
If there is any disciplinary action taken on the other shirts, the students can invoke Tinker and force the issue into the courts.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
68. Because it's racist code?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
96. I see that your empathy training is incomplete. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Self delete. Wrong place. (nt)
Edited on Fri May-07-10 01:16 PM by Heidi
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
37. This RW racism has to stop.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
44. 20 little assholes.....future teabaggers unless college changes their worldviews
nt


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. I see it more as "look at me" contraianism, more than political
Its fairly common in US high schools, esp among the boys. They do not understand how it might be considered tacky or hurtful. Most of them have not matured any kind of political views yet.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
69. Schools are not free speech zones. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #69
83. Actually, they are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District

The court's 7 to 2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. Justice Abe Fortas wrote the majority opinion, holding that the speech regulation at issue in Tinker was "based upon an urgent wish to avoid the controversy which might result from the expression, even by the silent symbol of armbands, of opposition to this Nation's part in the conflagration in Vietnam." The Court held that in order for school officials to justify censoring speech, they "must be able to show that action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint," allowing schools to forbid conduct that would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school."<1> The Court found that the actions of the Tinkers in wearing armbands did not cause disruption and held that their activity represented constitutionally protected symbolic speech.


Now, later cases have carved out exceptions for Tinker, specifically relating to speech that promotes illegal activities, is indecent, or goes against dress codes.

This case? I'd say tinker applies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. The cases following this prove that schools are not free speech zones...
whether you think this applies or not is a matter of opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Err.. it's not unlimited, but it does apply there.
No right is unlimited. That doesn't mean the right doesn't apply. Nothing in the following cases asserted that the first amendment doesn't apply to schools.

Exceptions where speech may be regulated, and what kinds of speech enjoy protection do not destroy the right.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
78. jerks n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
90. The selective outrage against "violation of freedom of speech" is sadly predictable.
Fuck that shit, mandate uniforms for everybody in every school up to and including senior HS year.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. It's just a bunch of Mexicans.
They should just suck it up so that real Americans can show their pride.

:sarcasm: for those in need; though, read this thread and the one about the flag shirts for similar attitudes that are not sarcastic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
98. But we're supposed to solve the bullying problem. . .
And protect free speech at the same time.

Anyone else see the rock and hard place here?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #98
115. Not really. How many responsible people do you know
that set out to intimidate others on purpose? This isn't about legality but about community.

It's legal for me to wear a shirt to my mother-in-law's house that says, "You stupid controlling C word" but as an ethical person who doesn't need the law to tell me when I'm being anti-social, I don't do that.

People who refrain from anti-social behavior don't do it because of a law. They do it because they have a conscience as a consequence of having a working brain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #98
135. There is a slippery slope here that needs to be acknowledged...
Again if its not "attack words" or advocating illegal action, the school should be wary. If its political is already limited by Tinker. Arguably in both cases it could be considered political.

Another way to look at it is this:

If you allow Blue Pride Shirts, you have to allow Green Pride shirts.
You do not have to allow Blue Sucks or Green is superior shirts.
Schools have already lost on that in the courts.

If you ban symbol X as intimidating, you have to honor it when
someone else claims symbol Y is intimidating. That is happening
more and more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
101. Blatant attempt to intimidate. Bullying little shits.
I wonder whether any of the 20 has ever had even a single genuinely original thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. This is the district my Mom (& I for the duration) live in.
These kids obviously feel entitled by the national conversation that frames all Mexicans and Mexican Americans as "aliens" and therefore, as targets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
118. Assholes
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #118
139. I agree with that, but they have the right to be one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
119. I do believe I know someone who goes to this school
I will expect a full debriefing when I see him later on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishbulb703 Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
121. It is absolutely against the principles of liberalism to support the school's decision. EOM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. +1
sad that so many DUers think that muffling ideas is a good thing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. I support the school decision, I'm a liberal, and you are full of shit. -nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. What other civil rights do you oppose? American flag shirts are not prima facie bullying
Edited on Fri May-07-10 05:25 PM by ProgressiveProfessor
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #128
140. Check the OP. This time it's not American flags. -nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #140
165. Both incidents are being used in the discussion here
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. The Border Patrol one is much nastier, and that's what I'm talking about.
Edited on Fri May-07-10 06:19 PM by Commie Pinko Dirtbag
And that's what the OP is about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #121
127. It is absolutely against the priniciples of liberalism to support the student's racism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #127
129. Your presumption of racism is unfounded
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. It takes breathtaking innanity not to notice the racism.
Or one could just be playing dumb. Either is innane.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. I vote "second option". -nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #133
147. So do I.
It's like when the KKK member gets on the Jerry Springer show and says something like "I ain't racist, I don't hate all niggers, just the bad ones."

Are we supposed to believe this crap? No.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. If its not prima facie, the school really has no right to act.
My experience with high school boys is that most of them have no political philosophy to speak of. However, they have a contraian/look at me streak a mile wide. Given that I am not willing to concede this was prima facie racism. Dumb, stupid and tacky clearly but not grounds for disciplinary action.

Banning the American flag shirts was clear uncalled for. Tinker probably protects the the other guys as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #134
142. What utter bs. Have you ever actually been put in charge
of a classroom full of teenagers? I think not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #142
149. For several years in several countries
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #134
150. Are they contrarian? Yes.
What are they contrarian too? Mexicans celebrating their heritage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. Its the want to be different, not do what everybody else is doing, being outrageous enough to get
noticed. Its not just limited to border patrol shirts. Seems almost genetic in teenage boys
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #154
157. You can say the same thing about skinheads.
They're young. They're stupid. They feel like outcasts. They want to fit in with older kids in their own little cliques so that they'll feel validated.

Does that mean it's not racist?

Fuck no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #157
164. Not nearly as much. Its more like goths and emo. The vast majority outgrow it thankfully
I would have a different take on 40 yo adults showing up on Olivera Street during a festival wearing Immigration shirts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #164
170. If goths and emo kids were racist, sure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #129
141. It's hard to believe you actually dont see how wearing "border patrol"
shirts on a day that Mexicans celebrate, is not a slap at Mexicans.

Since you seem smarter than that, I'll just assume you are being bewilderingly argumentative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #141
153. It tacky and rude, but in that age group probably not particularly racist
HS boys are rarely if every political. I see it as contrariness/look at me behavior, like wearing orange on St Patricks Day.

There is also the consequences if the school starts banning things that offend, since just about everyone is offended by something. Some of the silliness out there is amazing, and that kind license will be abused.

In an interview I heard today one of the students said they felt dissed, which is neither bullied nor intimidate. There is no right not to be dissed or offended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #153
181. You seem to have a difficult time calling racist behavior exactly what it is
It's even possible to exhibit racist behavior without actually being a racist, but there is no question that what these stupid kids did was a racist act.

And your comment that schools should be careful about banning things because "everyone is offended by something" is just inane in light of the conversation at hand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #181
182. Having seen the "ban this because I find offensive" game in action
Edited on Fri May-07-10 08:53 PM by ProgressiveProfessor
its not something to be trifled with.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #153
188. High school boys can be as racist, or moreso, than anyone else.
Your excusal of their behavior is not working.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. Not in my experience, YMMV.
Regardless it is still not prima facie racism and the school should not have banned them, especially not the flag shirts (note that the school has backed off on that one). If a claim is made that the shirts were political speech, Tinker kicks in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #189
194. So your lesson to the racists is...
don't write "Fuck off beaner spic assholes" on your shirt--just be a tiny bit more subtle and we won't do anything about it.

Unbelievable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #194
195. ROFL!
Well put.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #194
197. Actually its what the courts have told the schools: balanced treatment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. The courts have said that poorly veiled racism
is OK in schools and the schools can't do anything about it? Interesting. I missed that one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #199
203. Look up the straight pride case...you will find it instructive
I fully expect the school that banned the Immigration shirts to back down quietly in a little bit. Tinker and other decision are against them. The district has already backed down and apologized for banning the flag apparel and left the asst principal who made that decision swinging in the wind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #153
192. I do not believe that you have been put in charge of high school kids
and think that the age group doesn't have racism and isn't political. That's just silly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #192
196. I think politically active adults project that into others
Most high school boys have a singular interest that does not involve race. Regardless, the schools will back down, the one that banned the flag shirts already has. Once Tinker is invoked the other one will too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #196
198. I teach high school
Have for over a decade with 8 years off to teach college. You're wrong. I have had over a handful of discussions with kids since the AZ law about it not being cool to say that all Mexicans are illegals, that anyone Hispanic should just go home, that this is America and not their country, etc, etc. All of this being said about students in our school that were born in the United States and are citizens.

Go ahead and keep thinking that kids today aren't racist. It's not reality, though. I know the type of kids that would wear the shirts in question and I know why they would do it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #198
202. I have and still do
Right now its college during the year and high school in the summer. Doing it again this year, (just signed the contract)

I am not tying the inane AZ law to students wearing American flag shirts. I see them every day on campus and do not believe they are inherently racist, even on May 5th. I see the immigration shirts as tacky and provocative but not particularly racist on HS kids. I take a harder line on older adults. Its based on how I perceive young people, YMMV. Yes I have seen racists, even down to junior high, but they really are the exception, particularly in California.

My experience with dress code. offensive speech, or any other controversial issue is that schools are lazy and take the path of least resistance. Nothing new about that. If someone complains often and loud enough they will act. However, if that action later forces them into an embarrassing situation, they will retreat and leave the person who made the original decision to swing in the wind. The school that took action against students who wore flag related apparel has already backed down and the asst principal with a Hispanic name is not being defended in the least. That should surprise no one. The school that banned the immigration shirts will follow shortly rather than risk a legal fight it is most likely going to lose. Tinker and precedent work against it.

The key here is clear boundaries with strong lines. Historically there has been capriciousness about what has been allowed. Gay Pride was fine, Straight Pride was not, until the courts stepped in. The key being balanced treatment. Additionally vague fears about potential hurt feelings and disruptions are not being seen as credible as they were before. Most of the schools today are taking a "nothing negative, nothing illegal, nothing sexual or with double meanings, nothing supporting guns approach". It seems to work with the courts and the students. Under that kind of regime neither the Immigration or flag shirts would have been banned.

Another poster here has been making an emotional play for social consciousness is more that what is legal. Though he seriously overreaches, there is a good concept there...the way to prevent the Immigration kind of shirts is to school community to shun the wearers. Peer pressure is the one thing all high school students bow to at some level. It also teaches some valuable lessons.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #153
201. you don't have to be political to be a bigot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #127
155. it's possible to despise the student's racism and still believe
the administration is wrong. That's where I am.

The more I read about these cases--this one and the flag t-shirts case--the more I think the problem starts with an administration that isn't doing its job well. I read one report (don't remember where) that said the school with the flag t-shirts has had similar Cinco de Mayo issues since 1992 and they have sometimes led to violence. Well, I understand why they'd want to get the kids with the flags out of there, but that's a short term solution to a long term problem of simmering tribalism. A responsible school district would get the students to think about Cinco de Mayo qua Cinco de Mayo, which is to say as a celebration that has emerged out of the synthesis of Mexican and American cultures. Instead, the administration response is to allow the worst, and most reductive, forms of binary 'thinking' that allows students on both sides to fall back into an us vs. them mentality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #155
158. So you believe it's OK for students bring racist messages to school.
KKK robes. Swastikas. Neo-nazi uniforms.

Even if it creates a hostile environment for other students.

OK. Good to know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. I don't believe I said that
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #159
160. I believe you did say that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. your belief isn't well founded then
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #161
169. Sigh.
Edited on Fri May-07-10 06:18 PM by Commie Pinko Dirtbag
You: All VW beetles have rear engines.
Me: Uh-huh.
You: I think vehicles with rear engines are hard to drive.
Me: OK, so you think VW beetles are hard to drive...
You: I DIDN'T SAY THAT!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #169
173. your little syllogism is cute, but it doesn't respond to anything I actually said
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #161
172. It is.
"it's possible to despise the student's racism and still believe the administration is wrong (to discipline them their racist behaviour)"

Ergo, it's wrong for schools to punish students for racist behavior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MODem75 Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #121
184. Against the priniciples of libertarianism not liberalism.
Big difference there. I don't like the idea of "anything goes" when it comes to free speech especially when it has potential to hurt others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #184
190. Slippery slope and I have seen it in action
"Potential to hurt" can become the license or even requirement to ban anything that anyone finds objectionable. What is offensive/insensitive/racist/hurtful to one person may be fine to another. Who makes the call on that for the school? Who are they to determine what a person thinks is potentially hurtful.

When one group gets something banned because they consider it offensive, another group will ask to have something banned in retribution. An example was after the 2nd Confederate naval jack (which the ill informed call the Confederate flag) was banned at a school, a group of parents went after the Rastafarian and pan African flags and related symbols claiming they were of a form of intimidation and supported drug use (Rastafarian). Others went after other symbols, including Mexican flags. School was between a rock an a hard place. It could not support one ban and disallow the others. Eventually the school quietly relented on the ban.

Same goes with clothes. If schools allow Blue Pride Shirts, they have to allow Green Pride shirts. Schools do not have to allow Blue Sucks or Green is Superior shirts. Schools have already lost on that in the courts. Substitute for race, gender, sexual orientation of your choice, but it still holds true. If Mexican pride shirts are OK, so are expressions of American pride or any other nationalistic pride for that matter. If Gay Pride is allowed, then so is Straight Pride (been thru the courts). If Girl Power is OK then Boy Power has to be as well.

It can get stupid very fast when you try and ban speech potentially hurtful to others, even though it is well intentioned. Schools need fixed, deterministic standards to operate from. That is not libertarian, that is common sense. Allowing speech that is within the rules, even if you disagree with it is a liberal and progressive value.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
144. Seems to me that those students were trying to intimidate the "brown people."
And I would bet they were encouraged by their parents, too. Bigotry begins at home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #144
187. Seems to me you're right
And it also seems to me that the few people in this thread trying to turn this into a "free speech" issue know that on a deep level but have their egos now so invested in their position that they cannot extricate themselves from the mess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #187
204. I think you're right. Free speech was meant to persuade, not to intimidate.
If they thought of it in terms of bullying, maybe they'd understand. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #204
210. Who then, would be intimidated
by a T-shirt with the name of a law enforcement agency on it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
npk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
152. Will there ever be peace again at these schools
Edited on Fri May-07-10 05:47 PM by npk
Let us pray that next weeks t-shirts only have nice things written on them. Like corporate symbols or NASCAR. I don't know if my ticker can take much more of this. I just know some damn kid is going to wear a Hannah Montana shirt that is going to cause a massive riot. I just want go out of my house next week or the week after, till all this nastiness blows over.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
206. Shouldn't they be picking on fat people who insist on wearing spandex instead?
For the Sarcasm Challenged: :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #206
209. That happens everyday, its a national disgrace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 12th 2024, 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC