"The flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery"

Did everyone read that correctly? It's from the US Code that I've seen defenders of the notion that wearing stars and stripes is offensive to Mexicans and Mexican-Americans quote all day long. The Flag. I'm assuming that when the US Code was written, its authors meant exactly what they wrote... The Flag. Not a representation of the flag, not white stars on a blue background, not red and white stripes. Rather, The Flag.

I dare say that if you took any of the clothing the five young men wore today that got them sent home from school, you could not make a true flag out of it. That is to say no one took a flag and made a piece of clothing out of it. A true US Flag, according to the US Code, would look like this:

Hoist (width) of the flag: A = 1.0
Fly (length) of the flag: B = 1.9<3>
Hoist (width) of the Union: C = 0.5385 (A x 7/13, spanning seven stripes)
Fly (length) of the Union: D = 0.76 (B × 2/5, two fifths of the flag length)
E = F = 0.0538 (C/10, One tenth of the width of the Union)
G = H = 0.0633 (D/12, One twelfth of the length of the Union)
Diameter of star: K = 0.0616
Width of stripe: L = 0.0769 (A/13, One thirteenth of the flag width)

I don't think anything worn by those young men today met the requirements of what the US Code states The Flag should look like.

A bandana with white stars on a blue background, that includes red and white stripes is not a flag. A T-shirt with white stars on a blue background, that also includes red and white stripes is not a flag.

Radical Muslims threaten the creators of South Park with violence for showing a representation of their prophet, and DU'ers say HOLY FUCKING SHIT who do they think they are?! They're stifling our constitutionally protected FREE SPEECH... in our OWN country no less! Let's have a Muhammed drawing festival! Conversely, a high school vice principal says no one can wear a combination of red stripes, white stripes, and white stars on a blue background on the 5th of May because it might offend Mexican-Americans and incite them to violence, and DU'ers say RIGHT ON, who do those bigots think they are?!

I'm not gettin' it. The high school was wrong. Evidently, the school district agrees.

I think the end result will be that the Mexican-Americans who were protected from the outrageous bigotry of five young men will feel as though their "rights" outweigh those of others on their campus.

had his hair shaved all because he sewed a flag on his jean jacket.

He was jailed for three days and had his head shaved because he sewed a whole US Flag on his jacket? While I completely disagree with his incarceration and theft of his hair, I have to say he was at least worthy of being pointed at and laughed about for sewing a whole US Flag onto a perfectly good jacket. What a goofy thing to do, ruining a perfectly good jacket like that...

by non conservonuts were somehow seen as anti american behavior. The funny thing was conservonuts often made homosexual reference's about guys with long hair, they claimed that it made the boys look like girls or some nonsense. We used to reply that it was not long hair guys gay guys went for they preferred guys who looked like the conservonuts, which tended to make them go away.

is probably obsolete due to the SCOTUS decision that protected flag burning as free speech. They're just outdated laws that are still on the books because nobody's bothered to remove them.

That was an easy one.

wrapping themselves in the flag and stand in front of it,as was said by one wise person some time ago.

They love to do that, wrap it around them. But when it comes to the principals of the flag they forget what they are.

I'd be willing to bet that the kids who wore the red, white, and blue today haven't begun to formulate a political philosophy yet, and that their vice principal did a great job of pushing them in the wrong direction.

I don't have a donor star, so next to your post, I see an ad for 'Americana Apparel', which is proudly selling a tacky American flag t-shirt. :rofl:

:thumbsup:

had no say in this whatsoever. So to continue to attack them based on nada is a little silly.

And to make schoolyard antics somehow about Latinos in general is ridiculous and sad.

I stated CLEARLY in the OP that I thought the HIGH SCHOOL was wrong.

I grew up in a Latino community called Norwalk. My high school was 60% Latino when I graduated. My vato homies always had my back because they knew I had theirs. We played baseball together and my dad drank with their dads at the pizza parlor when we won Saturday games. I was raised eating chorizo con huevos and lengua burritos made with homemade tortillas at their houses. I helped them install hydraulic shocks on their Impalas and Caprices in high school auto shop.

Try as you might, you won't pin me down as someone who has a bone to pick with Latinos. Most of those I grew up with still consider me to be family.

My bitch is that some asshole vice principal saw it as his duty to protect his students from the outrageous bigotry of five possibly misguided white kids by telling those students that representations of the US Flag were not welcome at his school today.

So you can take your remark concerning schoolyard antics about Latinos and hold it in one hand, shit in the other, and decide which has more value.

that the principal sent the other kids home.

I do think the principal made a bad choice, though, unless the kids were actively inciting animosity and fighting. Then everyone involved should have been sent home.

Although, it's easy for me to say that, I wasn't there and I don't know these kids.

deliberately avoid... for reasons I've so clearly proven here. But I get scatterbrained and forget my own protocols often enough. Call me deservedly dunce-capped.

I knew there was something amiss - which lead me back here to check it out. And there I was, being an idjit. : )

The US code is only advisory. A flag is whatever people construe it to be, and more importantly, any icon or symbol worn in public school is subject to restrictions not found on adults in public venues. A school can set dress rules and those rules can take into account such things as likelihood of the symbol contributing to disruption.

The lapel pins are flags. They don't have to fit the US code requirements to be a flag. They are symbols of the flag, and intended as such. They were worn as that symbol, and arguably, they were worn as a statement in opposition to Cinco de Mayo. In that sense, it was an attempt to speak out against the Cinco de Mayo celebration.

I do not favor the school's action. It's speech and if one student can wear a flag of Mexico, I don't see why another cannot wear a US flag. If they want to argue about it, make them argue about it in class. Make them debate these issues, instead of simply promoting their respective icons.

Make it a teachable moment. Do they not have Social Studies classes anymore?

I have no doubt the students who picked this particular day of all days to deck themselves out in Old Glory did in fact have racist intent.

But don't bury that under petty-bureaucrat power plays and legalities about flag codes. Call them on it. Make them explain their reasoning in public in front of their classmates in class, preferably head to head with Mexican-American students who are also well versed in history. Have classes actually DISCUSS the flag codes, and free speech, and racism, and immigration and assimilation, and cultural conflicts. High school students should most certainly be capable of having such a discussion as long as there's a competent moderator (teacher) present.

The best way to combat racists is to get them in front of a crowd and make them say the things they typically say only to each other. Let them condemn themselves with their own words.

Even in my piss-poor Appalachian public school days...well, the highlights of most of my school days were the History and Social Studies classes where I got to expound on my liberal/progressive point of view in debate on the issues that came up.

(As it happens, one of the few friends from those days I'm still in close touch with on Facebook was my regular sparring partner, a Reagan Republican at the time who was also smart and well-read. He's better now, as it happens, but not to do with me. More to do with the fact that he deeply loves blues and old-time music, and researching them deeply over the decades and really coming to understand the songs, he's learned wayyy different attitudes about poverty and race and gender than the ones he was raised with...but that's neither here nor there, we were in school together having our arguments with a very smart teacher for a referee almost 30 years ago.)

This is the idealist in me, but I really think that all forms of bigotry (racism, sexism, homophobia, etcetera) come out of being taught a message of fear and alienation from childhood. Given a chance to really learn better, both by reason and by empathy, a not-negligible proportion of people eventually will.

Just before the 2nd Gulf war began, my daughter and her "Liberty Misses" USO group went to Barhain and Kuwait to entertain the troops for Christmas. They all wore American flag jackets as part of their performance wardrobe, and no one ever said a damn thing about it. This was when we had a decent Sec. of Defense, who was at one of their performances along with his wife Janet Langheart and country singer Larry Gatlin. These were not "liberal" people folks, and no one ever complained about it. Neither did the troops for that matter!!! This is just another double standard show put on by the teabaggers for another 15 min. of fame!!!

in a Norwalk high school, an ass kicking would ensue. Bet on it.

This is not political. It was just a couple of asshole white-boys who wanted to be funny...they weren't.

The kids I know from Norwalk, those children of the people I grew up with and whose houses I still visit on a very regular basis, have had the same experience as I did but on a larger scale. These kids are much more homogeneous than we were in the late 70's. They listen to the same hip-hop, wear their pants below their asses the same, hell they even TALK the same.

There is less white vs. brown, soc vs. greaser, surfer vs. cholo in Norwalk now than there was when I went to school.

A smart Vice Principal would have used the matter as a teachable moment, rather than screwing his school out of ADA by sending five kids who hadn't done anything wrong home and as a result having hundreds of his Latino students walk out as well. I wonder how much money that cost the school today. If you know how schools are funded in California, you'd understand the problem he caused. You, on the other hand, seem to be trained to believe that "white-boys" and Latinos are so diametrically opposed that violence is a guarantee. I'd bet against you, and probably win.

An impromptu assembly in the multi-purpose room that everyone had to attend might have promoted a discussion resulting in respect for the fact that cultural differences don't have to end in group on group violence and are part of this wonderful melting pot we're supposed to live in.

I think it would take less than a minute for you to tell me everything you know about Norwalk. Maybe you could indulge me?

My family has been living in this area when there was no such city as Norwalk.

As far as the straw man about how I think...you know jack shit. This is about one thing, smart-ass punks in a high school who were trying to provoke.

Would it be cool for a few white kids to wear Stars and Bars t-shirts on MLK Day at Long Beach Poly High?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000008----000-.html

"(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown"

"(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."

No PART of the flag. Not a whole flag, NO PART.

Having seen the shirts and bandannas in question, several represented parts of the flag, and one was a flag (with correct geometry) printed across the shirt, another pair of pants reprinted flags all up and down the pants.

edit: more detail on the clothes

of the US Flag?

Are you stating that the US Code forbids red or white stripes, blue backgrounds, or white stars?

No part of A US FLAG. No part of a group of pieces of different colored and shaped material that when sewn together comprise The Flag of the United States of America. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? How fucking hard hard is that to understand? I may NOT disassemble a flag, and use it for my own purposes.

"printed or otherwise impressed on... anything that is designed for temporary use and discard". Are you saying that in your opinion, what the five young men wore to school today was designed for temporary use and would be discarded after said use?

Laughable at best.

Does it look like a US flag, or not?

A white star, by itself, does not.

A print of a waving flag, even without all 50 stars showing, does.

No part of a group of pieces of different colored and shaped material that when sewn together comprise The Flag of the United States of America.

Perhaps you are confused about how flags are actually made. Hint: They are not made by flag fairies.

Does a bandana with white stars on a blue background, also having a few red and white stripes look like a flag to you? It doesn't to me. Does that silly speedo G. Gordon Liddy is wearing in a photo on this thread look like a flag to you? It sure as fuck doesn't look like a flag to me.

A print of a waving flag isn't a flag. Get it? "printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard". I'll ask again, do you think that what the fab five were wearing today was designed to be discarded at the end of the day?

I have a much more simple test... IS it a flag, or is it not?

"fab five"?

Wat?

As to your simple test, three were disrespecting the flag.

Two were wearing red/white/blue.

One of the cool neat nifty things about most laws and ordinances is they have a vocabulary section at the beginning so they can just use a simple word later on.

"The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America."

The flag patch and the flag lapel pin have specific mentions in the Flag Code showing how they should be worn to show proper respect.

Does a print of a waving flag, to you, represent the US Flag? Is it a picture or representation of the US Flag? If it is not a representation of the Flag, what is the point of wearing it?

The SCOTUS has determined that violations of the Flag Code are not legally actionable. A violation of the Flag Code is no excuse for what the school did -- if the t-shirts were fine to wear as far as they were concerned on any other day, they should have been fine to wear on May 5th. That does not mean that it isn't still a violation of the Flag Code.

The purpose of the things you are supposed to do to show respect for the US Flag is to make us value it as a powerful symbol of our country. Have you ever witnessed a military funeral? Seen the Flag folded in a ritual of solemnity and dignity? Presented to the loved ones as a symbol of what their son or daughter died trying to defend, or if they did not die in war what they devoted their lives to? Displaying the Flag everywhere and on everything and everyone cheapens that symbol. Why should they take any comfort at all in their son or daughter living and dying for something that's a magnetic decal on what seems to be every other car you see driving down the street? Worn as Speedos, ties, bikinis, t-shirts, bandannas?

I mean, seriously.... hasn't seeing the Flag lost some of its emotional impact on you in the years since 9/11, when the recent upswing of "patriotism" started? Be honest.

(Edit: I really ought to proofread more carefully or I'll words out.)

I guess it's easier than actually contemplating what they represent!

1. One should never, ever, ever point ANY kind of gun at (or in the general direction of) anyone, even if you know it is a facsimile and incapable of inflicting harm. If it looks like a gun - treat it like one. Come to think of it, I feel the same way about knives and other weaponry...

2. One should never, ever dishonor or willfully damage the flag - and whenever preventable, you never, ever let it touch the floor.

Right or wrong (and likely surprising to some who know me), both things make me shudder when I see careless handling in either case...

We're gonna be hearing about this shit for a fucking CENTURY.

This will be a RW meme for a long time.

Now, the Flag Code is no longer an enforceable set of laws -- it's a set of common traditions about how we show respect for the flag of the United States.

"The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America." -- Flag Code, Section 3, above gleefully pirated from http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm#q031.

It infuriates me to no end to see how we devalue the impact of the Flag of the United States by splashing it all over this country in the name of "patriotism" -- it dilutes the power of the symbol. The Flag is supposed to be special. We don't treat it that way anymore. It's apparently just fine to wear it as a tie, to wear it as a bikini, to use it to sell just about anything under the sun.

Check out the photo essay "Tattered" if you haven't yet before:

http://www.sethbutler.com/tattered/

It's just plain sad.

The school being right or wrong has nothing to do with the way we use the Flag for everything from selling burgers to sunglasses. If the school allows those t-shirts on any other day of the year, they should have allowed them on May 5th.

One of the guys mentioned one of the students was "just off camera" mentioned the name Matthew Dejeriano how fucking convenient I thought "off camera" LOL

This was in response to the clueless ex beauty queen asking "Did the wearing of the shirts have anything to do with the immigration discussion we are having today?"

"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead." - Arundhati Roy

The school was wrong (1st Amendment)
The flag-like-cloth wearers were jerks
The Mexican kids get the blame from the wingers. Typical.