I think the #1 thing rich people REALLY DON'T GET

is how completely draining stupid little bills are to the middle and lower classes.

In the last few months I spent 700 getting the front window replaced (after one of the dogs blew it out), 900 on the cars (cracked axle, busted bearings, new brakes, and general tune-up issues), 500 on a new dryer, and tonight my laptop won't work and so I don't have a computer (this after spending 500+ to try to fix the stupid power connection). So far none of the dogs has had to go to the vet this year, but we spent about three thousand last year on vet bills alone (if your dog ever starts vomiting blood, seriously consider pretending you don't notice it).

Thousands of dollars in random bills may not matter to people making 100K, but to people making half of that amount, or a quarter of that amount, this kind of crap can be the difference between being financially stable and losing the house.

Stable people are not in fear.

All whining about not having what the rich have. Well, if you work hard you will be just as successful as they are. That's what all the right wingers say. If you're working 12 hours a day increase it to 16 or 18. Stop taking care of your children or elderly parents and only think of yourself. That will increase your wealth. Stop doing anything for anyone. Only do what gets you money. That is the right wing belief. They equate the 'worth' of a person by the amount of money they have. If you spend your time helping others and using your money to take care of your parents or your children you are a loser in their eyes.

So wake up, get selfish and even become a sociopath. Even you can become a 'successful' right winger if you strip yourself of everything of actual 'value'.

Some posters were seem to think we are jealous of the wealthy. Its not that were mad at the rich for living their wealthy lives. What they buy and what they spend their money on is up to them

Its the fact that they LOBBY AGAINST the middle class is what has us steamed...these people want to cut regulations to pre depression days. Back when workers were paid pennies for 12 hour work shift. They want to shed away with environmental laws spending billions on oil...raising the fuel price till it gets to 4 dollars a gallon. Have any of these gas companies explained why their gas prices spike even though the price per barrell has experienced no change. Why is Exxon Mobil reporting record breaking portfollio in an economic crisis?
???

Why is that some companies don't have to pay taxes simply cause they have their PO BOX location located in a Tax Haven? This is the kind of thing these companies are lobbying in favor of...The Bush game explains http://bushgame.com/g7.html


They're against taxes..even the sightest bit of rise in taxes get them steam. These are people who fly in lear jeats, drive luxury cars and own 3 yachts and their worried about not feeding their children? ROFLCOPTER

The blood, sweat and lives of the poor and slaves built this country during it's first half. Then the poor and middle class built the greatest industrialized nation in the world. But today's middle class is much lower down the economic ladder than they were in the 60s and 70s. It's dwindling. And the people have no representation. As long as money buys elections the current trend will continue until we are a country of the super rich and the very poor. Everyone I know is just one major financial calamity away from total economic devastation, homelessness and poverty.

I got this morning ... very ugly!



I am my mother's sole caretaker. I don't ask my GOP siblings ("me and Sandy and Scotty") anymore for help with her because I know how they are. All I asked them was to remember to send Mom flowers for Valentine's Day. They all screamed at me!!! Nice, huh? They all live out of state.

Mom may have dementia, but it's considered "modest dementia" by her doctor, and she's not bad enough for me to put her in a home.

financially unstable?

But their issues are different than they are for us. They feel the need to spend as much as possible on what they get and do. There's a lot of competition among the rich as to who can spend more lavishly on themselves, their parties and even their charities. Everything has to be expensive and everyone has to know exactly how expensive their acquisitions are. Money is everything to them. Nothing is worse or more shameful than to lose their money because that is what defines them in every moment of their lives.

It is human nature, if you isolate the community you engage in, and the very rich are isolated. They eat and party with the rich and famous. The majority of them are their because their parents were rich (read up on class mobility, there is very little). And they just have no ability to understand why it is we poor folk can't just become rich like them. On some level we are "lazy" or "less intelligent" to many of them.

That is also why our institutions are failing at every level. Most of them are run by rich families who have a very narrow understanding of the world.

We don't even notice when they are taken out of our paychecks.

We have problems when the cost of groceries and medications and cars and utilities go up. Those are our concerns. Utilities are especially bad.

Today I bought two very special items from a slightly more upscale grocery store. I go there every couple of months for these two items. The upscale store is more expensive than my neighborhood grocery, but the local grocery does not carry these items. The prices had gone up yet again. No specials. No deals. Horrific prices -- for sausages and tea.

Everything is going up. Just watch, and you will notice.

The first thing people are going to start scrutinizing when the costs of goods and services skyrocket is the percentage of their money going to pay for social services that support other people. You simply cannot separate the two.

considering it's half of my income taxes...

not wearing Rolexes. I am serious.

There aren't different classes.

There are different worlds.

One mother is hoping she can just get enough food for her child, and another is worried that she might embarrass her child because her clothes are not expensive enough.

What kind of country are we?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

It's a good comparison. They have become so consumed by their own clinging and attachment to money that no amount satisfies them, it's always MORE, MORE, MORE!!!

The rich in this country don't have to worry about degrees, loans, credit scores, credit checks, any of that shit. That shit is put upon us to make it so the average person (like me for instance) cannot get ahead in life. It fucking sucks but I guess it's a way of life now. Only if we stage a revolution will they be truly worried about the way they conduct business.

are their customers.

And that the problems resulting from the poverty they cause with their greed is going to bite them on the butt at some point. Gated communities are not protection against angry mobs.

$250,000/yr you are just stupid and lazy.

I wonder how many of the people that fawn all over them make that much.

Of course, I'm sure the rich just eat that kind of rhetoric up.

Boosts their ego, and all.

I would imagine Coulter was joking, and Beck never means anything he says. They've gotten pretty brazen, haven't they?

I'd love a link to that, though; it's the sort of thing which properly timed can devastate their supporters.

across here on DU sometime in the fall. If I remember correctly it was about the time there was talk of raising taxes on people that made more than that amount.

And they think those of us who have ethics and do what PEOPLE NEED done are stupid.

:party:

I work with dozens of families that have maybe 1 - 10 million in assets. You may mean billionaire rich.

The people I work with are more aware of fees and unexpected bills eating you up than anyone else I work with.

They didn't save $ 1 million throughout their life by not paying attention to money.

Also, the majority of them would never be picked out as rich by anyone watching people come into my office during the day. They live in middle class homes, drive middle class cars and dress like middle class people. They're usually pretty old and they always saved money throughout their life. Now they're rich.

They complain plenty about rising costs and fees and charges. In fact as much or more as anyone. I know because they complain to me.

It is these same MF'ers that have through their "thriftiness" brought down the unions and have brought up the free-trade debacle we are currently living in therby destroying ANY chance generations that follow will EVER live as good as they have!

I know dozens of people just like the OP mentioned, in fact to a lessor degree my wife and I fit in that mold too. I never made a shitload of money in my life, but to this day - though I no longer work - I am a Union member,. And my wife made even less in her job that relied on tips more than pay-scale, but we saved and we paid our bills and when those unexpected costs popped up we were prepared to deal with them, but we sure as hell dreaded them as much as was mentioned in the original post. And here we are now, both retired in our late 50's and millionaires on paper. Do you see us as the rich who are out to destroy the world? Oh, and it was my father and mother who belonged to "the Greatest Generation" , not us, we're considerably younger than those few of them that are left.

You can never get that idea across here. Some one did it to them and someone should make it better. Sure there are things that keep you down but you have to work with the cards you have. I like the saying that it is better to lite one little candle than to curse the darkness.
I am finding it weird that I am buying a much more expensive house than I ever thought I would because if I don't I will have to pay more in income tax. I'd rather put it into a house then give it to the government and I was homeless for a while so I know what poverty is. No one did it for me.

If there is one lesson the left could learn from the right it is taking a little more personal responsibility. I think the country is politically centrist because of the level of personal responsibility people feel is correct. On one extreme people are very selfish thinking I got mine, you get yours. On the other extreme is the thought that someone is screwing us over and someone should come along and change that. In the middle are people who look at the world as it is and try to make it better for themselves and others. I find it ironic that it takes money to win elections and money to do charitable things so only people with money have the means to make the changes the far left want but they are always so ready to bite the hand that can help them.

Having wealth is not evil and poverty is not a virtue. People of all incomes can be evil and good..

The best way to "take personal responsibility" as a member of a social species, is to take responsibility for something larger than yourself. That means seeing that large groups of people are being systematically oppressed and exploited. One's personal responsibility - supreme personal responsibility - then become to stand with that group, stand for group action that will help millions, not merely help yourself.

Saying that the people with money are the ones who can help us so we shouldn't bite the hand that feeds us is a powerful and pernicious argument in defense of the current social arrangements and conventions, the inequality, the brutality and cruelty and the human misery we see all around us.

The idea of "personal responsibility" that you are pushing here is highly anti-social and destructive, and is certain to condemns millions to a nightmare of limited choices where the whole concept of personal responsibility become some sport of con, some sort of cruel joke.

Our first and most important "personal responsibility" is to our fellow suffering people.

Saying that in this system, wealth is everything and that to obtain that wealth requires certain anti-social and destructive traits, the traits, the only traits that are rewarded is not to say that "wealth is evil and poverty is a virtue." I don't think anyone here is saying that, and claiming that they are is a deceptive and misleading way to smear them and to encourage others to ignore and dismiss what they are saying.

The reason why "the country is politically centrist" is because of decades of relentless propaganda, pushing exactly the ideas you are promoting here. The orchestrated and well financed ongoing propaganda campaign is operated by the wealthy for the wealthy, and the main theme is that those suffering are "losers" who didn't "take personal responsibility" and who are to blame for the mess the country is in.

By the way, this system makes the rich people miserable, too. But so long as so many are losing their homes, their jobs, struggling to get access to food and medicine, they are not high on the priority list right now for our sympathy.

Also, I think there is at least some truth to the idea that the rich are evil and the poor are noble. The rich pay the price with their integrity and spiritual well-being and are often very lonely, paranoid and self-centered people - not by nature, necessarily, by what success has required of them. Perhaps every dollar gained is compensated for by a portion of their soul lost. Poor people, on the other hand, are more charitable and cooperative and more likely to look out for those below them and for the group, and in this way for every dollar stolen from them - that IS how this system works - perhaps they have an opportunity to reclaim some of their soul.

It is a sign, I think, of just how morally depraved our society has become, that here among Democrats - supposedly the defenders of the poor and working people - there is so much malice and contempt toward the less fortunate - much more politely expressed than we hear from the right wingers, of course - and so many apologies and defenses of the wealthy. I think a lot of people have internalized the most slanderous and vicious right wing propaganda and can no longer distinguish between those lies and reality. They think that "this is the way things are" and that accepting the right wing lies is a matter of being "practical" and "realistic." Stunning, really.

"The reason why "the country is politically centrist" is because of decades of relentless propaganda, pushing exactly the ideas you are promoting here. The orchestrated and well financed ongoing propaganda campaign is operated by the wealthy for the wealthy, and the main theme is that those suffering are "losers" who didn't "take personal responsibility" and who are to blame for the mess the country is in."

No, it is not decades of propaganda. This is part of the American Myth and it goes back to at least Jacsonian Democracy if not earlier.

By the end of the 19th century we called it the pull yourself by your bootstraps and American Dream.

IT IS OLD.

And the question is how to change it.

I fear we need to kill this, with quite a bit of the American Myth... aka the National Creation Myth that goes back to at least the 1770s. and we have been teaching this with mother's milk in the education system.

As much as I love schools, quick where did the public school system come from? The early Unions (as much as they could be called that way and the American Working Man's Party of 1824, later adopted by the early GOP, and Emerson, this needs to change. Kids need to learn that the US is NOT special (Manifest Destiny, American Exceptionalism). They also need to learn that PROGRESSIVE Taxation is very AMERICAN... and that we need to work TOGETHER.

Those three things would help to start the changes needed.

As is if you do not identify any idea by left\right, the country is actually pretty left leaning, not center.

Of course you are right - it "is part of the American Myth and it goes back to at least Jacsonian Democracy if not earlier."

Nadin, I have to tell you that I have no hope anymore of the average person knowing anything much about the history of the last 30 years, let alone back to the Jacksonian era, so I try to reduce the scope down to smaller pieces in the hope of reaching people.

"The country is actually pretty left leaning" - I agree. I was quoting the other poster when I said "centrist." Should have phrased it more clearly. "IF the country is in fact centrist, then it would be because..."

but it is sadly, part of the American DNA... the lack of history knowledge that is. We are proud of our lack of knowledge. It is the anti intellectual strain in the country... and that also goes back to at least the 1700's, if not earlier. What I like to call the Echoes of History.

I just point out these things hoping that somebody will actually become curious and find out about it.

:hi:

But last thirty years, people sadly don't remember last week.

:-(

Post # 54 here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8300351#8301650

Very well done. Thanks.

People doing well want to take the social context as a given, ignore all of the advantages they have, and only then start talking about "personal responsibility." They can then see themselves as superior, and dismiss the less fortunately situated, seeing them as having "made the wrong choices" or as morally or intellectually deficient.

This is all pure poison, and yet if we try to talk about it we are met with charges that we are treating the woman unfairly, that we are resenting the well-off and successful, that we are being bigoted, that we are speaking from jealousy or envy, that we are angry or otherwise out of control emotionally, that we have a bad attitude, that we are losers.

Aside from the fact that those are the smears and attacks that are always used by the bosses and managers and owners against working people, by whites against people of color, by straights against GLBTQ people, by the gentry against poor people and homeless people, by men against women, it also is highly defensive, which suggests that the people using those arguments are not completely comfortable with them, know that they are taking an untenable and unjustifiable position. They are themselves conflicted about their own status and position. That could only happen if it were true that all of the social arrangements and relationships were in fact seriously distorted so that there were pervasive and systemic injustice and inequality. Otherwise, there would be no need for those sort of attacks.

I speculate that there is an instinct, related to the instinct for self defense, that responds to imbalances in systems, e.g. the disproportionate relationship between productivity and employment compensation.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/working/entry/5940/disparity_between_productivity_and_pay_3_trillion_a_year

Having wealth is not evil and poverty is not a virtue. People of all incomes can be evil and good.

It's the "Grease" generation and the Boomers that ate up the anti-labor BS. Those "rich older people" nowdays are younger Grease generation folks and older Boomers.

I think the people who have brought down the unions belong much more to the "keep up with the Jones" (including go into debt to do so) group. The thrifty people are more likely to pay more money for a good, reliable product that will last for a long time. The post mentioned that the people he's talking about look middle class - its the people who need to look "rich" (want the lifestyles of the rich and famous but at cheap Walmart prices), who want the latest fashionable bullshit accessory who are the ones who have contributed to this debacle. Buying cheap Walmart crap made in China is false thrift and the truly thrifty who eventually become the "normal" rich (as opposed to the obscenely rich) recognize that.

Not so much in terms of net worth (we're working on that, though) but in terms of annual income, I consider my household to be in the lower range of upper class. And, as an example, I'm about to have my house painted ... I will ONLY use a contractor who is registered and licensed (which means more tax revenue for my local community) even if it costs me more because my thrifty self recognizes that paying more for a job well done enables me to save more in the long-run than paying less now. I have always supported unions, as have my parents (very comfortably retired, EASILY worth over $1 million ... not sure exactly how much) and my grandmother (just died - also a "rich" retiree).

Better keep your mouth shut and be thought of being a fool, than open it and clear any sort of doubt...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

What? You don't have a full time accountant on your payroll?

Heavens man! You must be going crazy trying to manage all thost things yourself!
If you don't engage an accountant there is nothing I can to do help you.

Now we're down to ramen noodles and beans. Somedays we splurge and have a can of spam.

Would be hilarious if not so infuriating.

Surprise: you blew a tire. Really need to replace both front tires. That's $250, three weeks of groceries.

Surprise: your kid broke her arm. You've found a place where you can get it set for only $500 in cash, and $500 which they'll bill you. Five hundred bucks covers all the bills for a month except the mortgage. It isn't like you have a choice here; find the cash somehow.

Obviously, those who can operate with a little cushion in their checking account do so, but the surprises take that away.

...to view things through glass

then I realized my car inspection was coming up. I have a crack in the front window -- it does not impede my driving and has been there 1.5 years but now I have to get it fixed just to get my inspection sticker. I just pray they do not find anything else. Oh and I finally paid the $400 for the student health and activities fee that I owe each semester. I avoided paying it until the last possible moment. Ugh...

And that is what can happen when driving a car with a cracked windshield.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Don

Seriously, I drive my car about once every three months since I carpool with husband to and from work.

Sometimes if it's necessary to pass inspection, they will even waive the deductible.

Several years of no raises combined with some "salary compression" due to the types of people leaving (higher paid subgroups had left, leaving lower paid colleagues behind), the average salary for my staff had actually fallen by perhaps 10% - 15% in 6 years.

Last year our company finally allowed us to offer raises. Just like years previous, and just like most other companies, raises are based on percentages of pay, with a sliding scale for performance.

With the consent of my own boss, I tried to allocate my own raise to my staff instead, because I had seen their standard of living fall from solid middle class to struggling working class, while I personally haven't had any worries.

For example, instead of 5% for the guy making 120K -- an extra $6000 per year -- you can give an EXTRA 5% ($1500 per year) to each of 4 guys making 30K. When combined with the 5% they were going to get anyway, you can really make a difference in 4 people's lives.

"HR" absolutely prohibited it. I'm sure that "HR" everywhere has manuals and "HR textbooks" that give all kind of reasons why this shouldn't be allowed, but like many such professional truths, they are likely based on hidden social principles which are rotten at their core.

Before someone suggests just handing over the cash, problem #1 is that the people are too proud and problem #2 is that many things are tied to base salary such as pension and next year's salary.

A raise ripples through for many years. The rules made by capital prohibit middle management from tipping the scales in favor of the lower classes.

HR is worthless. They do nothing productive for the company.

Side Story: Our group of about 20 people working on the same project all agreed to sacrifice 1 percent of our paltry 3% raises to give to one of our members who was transferred into our group. He did the same job as all of us, but because he came into the company at a very low rate he was stuck at that rate. So that gave him a nice 20% increase, plus the 3% he was going to get anyway. Our manager was a true leader and everyone in the group was more than happy to do this for one our group members. But it's a shame the company couldn't pay him for the new level of work he was performing.

I have known many co-workers who were told to quite the company (a major aerospace company) to quit their jobs and then reapply for their same jobs to get a raise. Some got 25-50 percent raises using that scheme. The company had no method for giving someone a raise in pay that large unless they quit and returned. A typical worker is stuck at his entry salary and then gets yearly bonuses.

I created my own facility at a company giving them a capacity they didn't have before. I asked my management (up thought five layers) that if I brought in 5 million dollars in added revenue could I share in a portion of that, even 10 percent. And they responded by saying they couldn't even guarantee I could keep my job. And this was Boeing, where they spent millions using HR to 'teach' the rest of us to be productive, how to break through barriers in the company and all that other corporate feces. I thought it was offensive to have HR conduct lessons when they have never interfaced with a customer or produced a product in their lives. I produced products for my customers at NASA and other contractors and each of them were thrilled with what I did for them.

You don't get rewarded working in corporations, you get abused and overused. I eventually learned that doing virtually nothing brought in the same amount of pay as when I was working 14 hours a day completely sacrificing my life for the company. So guess what I did...

It's a miracle if they did.. God forbid that any of us stick together or look out for each other.. It's no longer considered the 'American way'.

He kept in his top desk drawer a resignation letter and when he didn't get what he needed to do his job and deliver a product to a customer he would pull out that letter and tell the company they were going to lose him, his expertise and his long success record. He was a true 'maverick'. And he only hired people into his group who thought just like he did as far as going against the flow to get the job done.

We had the most productive and brilliant team in the company and he knew he had the power to turn the tables on management and win. He was a great student of psychology and that was one of the skills he used to get the job done for the customer. I really miss working for that team. We were the hardest working, brightest and close knit group ever. We all had interlocking jobs so we all depended on each other for our group and individual success. And even though we put in 12 hours a day, or sometimes a lot more, we also took liberties like take long lunches if we wanted to. He had a sailboat called "On Sight", which meant in NASA lingo that if you were 'on sight' you were at NASA. So all he had to do was tell everyone there was a meeting 'on sight' and we would all show up at his sailboat, even during a work day. We were, by far, the most productive group in the entire company and our customers were always thrilled with the products we produced for them. (It was offensive when the company put HR in charge of teaching us how to be more productive since not one of them ever produced a product for a customer or even worked for a customer. And yet the company spent millions on their 'plans of the month' (like TQMS) when they could have used that money to give people better salaries.

Management must of had constant seizures because we rarely followed their corporate rules, but it didn't matter because we felt like we were working for the customer, not them. Pleasing the customer was the purpose of our job. We did it better than anyone...


Side note: Later in that same company after a big change in management morale was destroyed. I found a book that described their tactics perfectly in "Worker Abuse". My wife was a teacher, a totally different profession, but the things in that book how workers are manipulated is the same in any profession. When we read that book we both felt validated about the feelings we had. I called and talked to one of the authors and I told him his book would make a great documentary. I was about to start working on the project when a tragedy struck our family and I gave up plans. But it would still be a great documentary. I haven't seen any other program address the systematic abuse that is going through almost every industry. The book is fascinating to anyone who has been a victim of work abuse. All the best...

Months ago I told my very wealthy boss that I couldn't afford my sons prescription (his dad, my ex, lost his job and the benefits and managed to fuck up the chance at COBRA). She gave me a blank look and said nothing. Fast forward to now and, after 14 months employment, was refused a raise of any kind. Was told if I make the business more profitable we'll be able to afford some luxuries and to please ask again. This from a woman who travels the world monthly, has a mansion with two professional kitchens, a race horse down south somewhere and every other luxury you can imagine. She has an antique crystal chandelier in her barn and I can't afford my son's prescription.

Julie

I see it all around me.

The "haves" do not get the "have-nots." They can't imagine the situation of barely getting by & the stress it causes and they don't care whatsoever. In fact, I submit that it makes some of them feel good--so entitled and fortunate. "There but for fortune..."

The wealthy in this country have either not earned it (like execs being paid huge bonuses) or they have not come by it honestly and shelter their income without paying taxes.

There are very very few who you can say have truly earned it, without benefiting from corruption or ill-gotten gains.

What the rich REALLY don't get is how much this situation is killing this country and how much better THEIR lives could be if they understood the principle of investing in PEOPLE.

Remember most of us are living paycheck to paycheck. we have been systematically targeted for the last forty years.This should jog your memory "Middle class,what"s middle class? There is no such thing as middle class. Either you are rich or poor." or this one " Death to the unions" all compliments of the Reagan Administration and the right wing religious cohorts.There also was an anger with the southern states over low wage african american workers going north for better incomes in manufacturing.(All your foreign automakers).But you want to know what the brilliant part of their plan they forgot? After they stole all our money for themselves,and outsourced the work,they would not have anyone to purchase their goods. And since we now know better,and have adjusted to not having for so many years,we get to watch them eat and fight with each other over what is left.Because it is now starting to trickle up. The trickle down theory to unemployment is now moving upward and they are scared.Because you can't have 95% of the country with out anything and think that they can stay in those gated communities and not have to deal with us.And don't let them fool you with rhetoric,they are losing money in every way.They don't have us to invest.We have been pulling what little money we have left out of their financial institutions and going to credit unions,we are now making purchases with cash or when credit card is needed we use a prepaid card with only enough on it for the purchase.We shop discount,We are growing our own gardens and feeding family and friends.We are networking to get the rotten to the core politicians out of office so our President can work in peace.And most of all we are working together for the positive so fuck rich people who control the twenty four percent vanished wealth that was once flowing through America.

:applause:

"We have been pulling what little money we have left out of their financial institutions and going to credit unions,we are now making purchases with cash or when credit card is needed we use a prepaid card with only enough on it for the purchase.We shop discount,We are growing our own gardens and feeding family and friends.We are networking to get the rotten to the core politicians out of office so our President can work in peace.And most of all we are working together for the positive"

That is what is needed, some initiative and willingness to do something rather than to just curse the rich!

$100,000 may seem rich to you, but it isn't. For a 2-income family it isn't at all rich. Between my husband and myself, we make right around that much, and we get nickeled and dimed, too. On the same types of things. We've had car repairs over the last couple of months, vet bills, my dryer is taking longer and longer to dry things. Yes, if those things weren't happening, we would be much better off.

Also, the rich probably think there are things YOU don't "get" either--for instance, that their disposable income keeps a LOT of businesses going, businesses that employ middle- and lower-class people--restaurants, car dealerships, clothing stores, etc.

Finally, working at a bank over the last couple of years has shown me a lot about the attitudes of the different classes toward money. Many of the very, very comfortable watch every nickel. They shop their CDs, and 1/4% difference in the interest rate will cause them to take their $$ elsewhere. On the other hand, I have one customer whose Social Security check is deposited on the first of the month, and he then proceeds to withdraw most of it over the next couple of DAYS--and to buy stupid stuff, like junk food, or tools he can't even use. He's out of $$ by the end of the first week, and then goes around asking people for personal loans.

Some are very careful how they spend their money. That's why they're rich. :)

But I talk about this very same problem here. You add up enough of these triple-digit "SURPRISES" and it really, REALLY stifles your ability to save any kind of money. One setback . . . just ONE . . . is so, SO COSTLY anymore. Used to be families were able to bounce back. Now, these sort of "need-to-fix-NOW" problems can put a family in a financial sewer for months and even years. Why does it have to be this way?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7423004

As a case in point:

What would be it like to go a day without spending any money? I've thought about this before but I've never considered actually trying it. I couldn't imagine going a day without spending a single penny -- is that even possible? How would I get from A to B? What about food? Turns out, a day of living expense free is possible and you'd be surprised by the overwhelming sense of satisfaction and feeling of elation that comes from it.

On Tuesday night I had just returned home after a long day of work and I decided to order in from my favorite restaurant. Forty minutes later, the deliveryman arrived with my pasta primavera and a Greek salad and I handed him $32.50, including tip. Pretty steep for a dinner for one, I thought. I returned to my kitchen counter, brown bag in hand, and it was then that I had a moment: I reviewed my spending for the day and I realized that I had spent well over $80 over the course of the day on menial expenses. I hadn't gone shopping, I hadn't dined out at Cafeteria for lunch, and I hadn't joined my friends for drinks. It dawned on me that the taxicab rides, stops at CVS, the Starbucks lattes, the mid-morning or mid-afternoon snacks, my take-out from the fabulous Italian restaurant, and other trivial expenses really added up; realizing the total cost of it all was a painful but eye-opening experience.

That night, I decided to go on a mission to live a full 24-hour day without spending a penny. A self-proclaimed female A.J. Jacobs, I pledged to wake up Wednesday morning and eliminate all expenses from my daily routine. It would be a feat but I was determined to test my discipline and my creativity. I would prove to myself and to those around me that a day of living expense free is possible - and a worthwhile experiment.

more (bring your barf bag)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexa-von-tobel/financial-challenge-go-a_b_566492.html

She spends $100 a day on complete and utter shit. $3000 a MONTH on NOTHING! And her smug self-satisfaction tells the reader that she will never, EVER have a clue about what it is like to not be wealthy. I would beat her senseless if she were here right now, I swear to God, and I am *not* a violent person.

And they scrubbed all the negative comments, and then closed all comments so no one else could pile on and tell her what a clueless little twit she is.

Maybe someone should start an OP with a challenge to Alexa.

Come HERE, to this Site, and face the proles with your entitled little world view.

She won't because she's a coward.

She has Zero Credibility, and I wonder just how high her legs went in the air to get that multi-million dollar Grant she got for a business to do something she CLEARLY has little to no knowledge of.

Fuck her, and Fuck HuffPo. THEY lost LOTS of credibility by letting her re-edit and scrubbing the comments.

But then again, they seem to be in love with Russell Simmons and his debit card scam as well.

Nothing more than Gatekeepers for controlled dissent and opposition, the lot of them.

on it!

I couldn't even bring myself to follow the link or read any further.

I thought the article would be about making it through the day without consuming anything; pretty difficult to do. But no, it is some exercise in being not-quite-so-urban-trendy. :puke:

A busy rich exec on the go in mid-town Manhattan. Please... That spoiled ass-hat doesn't know the meaning of going without mom and dads money. Never had a struggle once in her self-important life.

:eyes:

We need to form a group and start a website to fight against this terrible travesty. It is shocking the sort of persecution and abuse that rich people have to endure. Will no one defend them from these mercilessly attacks? I don't think there has ever been a group of people who have suffered more than they have.

Keep a close eye on everyone, and stamp out any hints of bigotry against rich people that might arise. They are so helpless and defenseless.

and although their lives are easier, life is not THAT much different than mine - living with a household income of about 25 grand. Someone with a 100K income HAS to work. They may retire early but they HAVE to work. I consider people who make 100K upper middle class. Some of them, I have no doubt, look down their little noses at me and mine, and I do not care. These people are rarely actually powerful enough to make my life miserable (Unless one of the look down their noses types get elected to office) My enemies are really (other than politicians) the super ultra rich. That 1% at the top around the entire world who manipulates the world markets for their own gain with no conscious whatsoever. The fact a good billion people live in extreme poverty for eons and the few countries who gained a middle class are losing it means nothing to them. We are like little green dots on a game board to them.

Have they not seen a doctor in over 20 years? Do the exist on eggs and cheap bread for a week? Do they pull their own bad teeth?

Trust me they have no clue.

few of us have any real clue what life is like for anyone else. I don't know anything about what it's like to pull my own bad teeth despite never been fortunate enough to have dental insurance, and a fairly low income. That has nothing to do with me being your rich enemy. It has to do with having a different life that carries it's own unique hardships. Does having $100,000 a year to play with make life much easier? Well of course. Does that automatically mean having $100,000 a year to play with makes one unfeeling and selfish? Well I have not found that to be true as a generality.

and didn't start poor.

My wife and I grew up in working poor families - while we are considered affluent now we certainly remember what it is like to be poor.

If I had a nickel for every time I've read "there will always be poor people", "the stupid, ignorant poor" or watch threads on unemployment, homelessness and poverty drop like rocks on this forum I'd be rich.

Glad you remember, most don't.

"And 100 million people, fully one-third of the entire U.S. population, are at or below "200% of the federal poverty line of $21,834 for a family of four", which is a needs-measure made lame by the fact that no family of four can actually comfortably live on such a low annual income."

http://www.alternet.org/story/145950/our_dirty_little_secret:_who%27s_really_poor_in_america?page=entire

Do well off people have difficulties...sure. But the poor have those same life's difficulties with the additional massive burden of having no money to anything about them in addition to suffering the myriad of extreme difficulties that are visited on them by poverty itself.

For the record I don't consider folks making 100,000 my enemy but that doesn't mean the majority of them aren't tone deaf regarding poverty. Most as I said don't have a clue and don't care to.

do in Hatti. My point is the "rich" is relative and I for one don't want to have a situation where we all have to pe on the same shitty level of existance in this world.

Second, nobody wants to live as Haitian peasants do, including Haitian peasants.

Third, exactly what sentiment were you trying to express? Because your post doesn't make much sense to me.

And just to make it clear, *my* point is that the rich in this country don't even know what kind of life the poor in *this* country live, let alone people in third-world nations.

People who make a comfortable salary feel the need to separate themselves from those of us living on the edge. The irony is that they have much more in common with poor folk than they do the elite class. Although they often behave and vote like the elite, their interests are very much tied to people living from paycheck to paycheck.

The "middle class" illusion is that most of us are "standard normal" with a few in extreme poverty and a few extremely wealthy. The illusion is that "anyone can make it." The illusion is that the social interactions and arrangements are more or less neutral, or inevitable and eternal - "human nature" people say, and "things are pretty much the way they always were." The illusion is that we have these exceptions - the super rich and the way they act, and the extremely poor and the challenge that presents to us.

The truth is that we are all participating in a system of social arrangements and conventions that operates exactly the same way at all levels of society, and that the relationship of the super rich to the rest of us is exactly the same as the relationship between every boss, landlord, and owner to every underling, tenant and employee. There is a pecking order, a hierarchy from top to bottom, and people adjust their thinking and their interactions with others strictly along the lines of perceived "success" - as measured by money - and who has power over whom. The manager emulates the owner who emulates the bigger owner who emulates the super rich. This is seen as "reality" and striving for dominance over others is seen as "success." That message in continually reinforced and those obeying it are rewarded and those resisting it are punished.

The happy white picket fence middle class life as powerfully an compellingly presented in every TV commercial is all an illusion, a cruel joke on all of us.

If you don't perceive those more powerful than you making your life miserable, then it could well be that you are one of those making the lives of others miserable. Not because those tormenting you are bad people, necessarily, or in the other case that you are a bad person. The system forces all of us into this dog-eat-dog dynamic, forces all of us to dominate or be dominated. It is pervasive, and it is very difficult to escape.

Are you out of your mind spending $3,000 for vet bills?!! I've had dogs and cats over the years. We have an adorable Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier now. I'm here to tell you, if the dog gets sick to the tune of 3 G's, his life is over. He's being put down. Priorities. If you can't afford things, don't buy them in the 1st place. I'm a working union stiff. Believe me, I'm on your side. But there are many things I spend my money on that I know I could do without in a serious pinch. I work with a guy who has 13 cats! He said one has cancer and he's already spent $3,000 on it! The cat would be in kitty heaven if it were mine. I'm an animal lover, but not to the extent of financial ruin.

If your kid got sick, would you put him or her up for adoption?

Many people view their pets as equivalent to their children. Regardless of your own feelings on the matter, suggesting someone euthanize their animals as opposed to caring for them when they are sick is a really fucked-up thing to say.

I don't particularly care for children, nor do I necessarily respect a person's decision to have a child, but I wouldn't out-of-the-blue suggest that they give their children up for adoption if they are having trouble paying their bills. Because, you know, that would make me a classless asshole.

Congratulations on being rude and proud of it.

Else you wouldn't break DU rules to lash out at me, who only pointed out that you prefer animals to people.

Good luck with that.

That's why you can post so casually about 'putting down' an animal who simply costs you too much.

Welcome to Ignore, you nasty sociopath.

You somehow know I would casually put down my pets and I don't love them in the first place. Get a damn clue already. If you don't possess the ability to understand when something just costs too much and could lead to financial ruin, then don't give me this boohoo bullshit that the rich don't understand your or the OP's plight. Fixing a wash machine for $400 is a necessity. If a pet costs you too much if it gets very sick, you shouldn't have the pet in the first place. Tough shit if I'd choose to put a beloved pet down if it'll cost me multiple thousands of dollars. It's a pet! It knew love. It lived a good life. But it's not going to ruin me financially. Priorities.

I don’t mean to provoke a fight with my comment but each day I focus on the first really down & out person I see and all day long keep her/him on my mind and ask divine providence to bless that person.

Can't help them materially; that would make Nordic Baby Jesus cry. :eyes:

But it looks like the same people I want to see making $100K would appear to be happier having us all making 5K.

I don't know what to say?

Don

My first job was McDonalds for about a year. Then I, I "moved up" to White Castle because they paid $2.50 more an hour. Then after moving out from my sisters in with some roommates I moved up again to deliever pizza's because the tips gave me an extra $200 at least a week.

Then some friends and I went and got hired at a plastic company working midnight shift since they were hiring at $9.00 an hour...shit, at 20 I thought that was some good money (over 15 years ago)

Then finally I got a job in my profession (what I was going to school for) and have been doing that ever since.



As you get older you gain knowledge, become a more valuable employee, and earn more compensation...At least that is how it should be....

"Give to charity. Get married and have a family. Stay off drugs and alcohol. Invest in the stock market. Plan for a rainy day. Vote for free market capitalism--they know how to regulate themselves. Keep the government small. Depend on the church to help the poor. Use tax breaks for the rich and the economy will grow. Maybe you'll be lucky!"



Fuck that shit. The middle class is dead, DEAD. The wealthy made up rules for US to live by in order to keep us down, while making their own separate set of rules based on lies, greed and ruthlessness.

We have been played, perfectly.

:loveya:

An NPR program years ago discussed them. In one, which they called the Japanese model, the ruling rich are careful to make sure that society flourishes. They give up total greed to perpetuate the economy that makes them rich and guarantees a perpetuation of this wealth for their children and grand children. Stability and longevity of their family's place of privilege is most important. So they do not ruin the lives of the millions that make them rich.

In the other model, which NPR referred to as the Latin Dictator model, the only ruling motive is greed and selfish power. It is important to make the lives of others bad in order to enjoy your wealth. You ruin lives, environment, economy, resources because the only thing that matters is how much money and power you have right now.

I think America has been run by the ultra-rich for some time. In recent years (coinciding with reagan's office) the trend has been for our ruling rich to move from the Japanese Lord model to the South American Despot model. They no longer care about their family or their descendants. They are perfectly willing to bequeath their future generations a ruined and despoiled nation and an angry and vengeful populace. Greed and meanness has become the defining characteristic of the very rich.

all of that brother.Couldn't said it better. glad someone remembers good ole Ronnie reagan.

about the way Japanese trading partners develop as opposed to US trading partners, but never heard the two described in this way. I'll have to look that up.

No luck so far. I know I had to have gotten the idea somewhere though, so I will keep looking. My memory is that I heard it rather than read it. At any rate, it wasn't my own concept.

$1800 on vet bills over and above yearly maintenance; vaccinations, etc..

$650 on plumbing repairs: broken pipes.

$1200 on electrical repairs; an underground line leading from the property line to the house (350 feet) went bad, and the electrician first had to FIND the broken connection, before he could repair it.

$600 in federal taxes by April 15th (the first time in my life I've ever owed any taxes)

There has been no money for other, less immediate repairs; still needed, but I'm getting by without them.

The above expenses leave me with NOTHING put away for fuel or hay next winter; a major financial crisis.

When I was in graduate school in the Ivy League, I needed to go to Japan for a year to do my dissertation research, so I applied for a bunch of fellowships.

I mentioned this to some undergraduates, and one of them said, "Why worry about getting a fellowship. Just go."

I stared at him. "I can't afford to support myself for a year in Japan."

He looked surprised, thought for a bit, and said, "Well then ask your parents."

"They can't afford to support me for a year in Japan either." (I was in graduate school on very generous financial aid, but it didn't cover study abroad.)

That shut him up. It was as if he had never considered the possibility that not all families could afford to support someone in Japan for a year.

What's even more stupefying is that there are those on this very site that just can't seem to grasp the concept that not everyone can afford to spend multiple thousands of dollars to go overseas even for a week. They don't get it. I'm not made of money. It wouldn't just be me going; it'd be my wife and step-son also. I'd have to save for three years and not purchase anything else. Overseas travel is expensive no matter HOW you slice it. The exchange rate is not even close to being in our favor.

If you rely on a paycheck, you are not wealthy. Truly wealthy people make money by having money. It's a completely different sort of life.

Are you smoking crack? Do you think the ultrawealthy believe in "the common good"?

Are you high?

100K might sound a lot to you, but it is in the upper limit of what you are going through...

Now people who are comfortable don't get that... but 100K is not, realistically, that much... ok let me correct this, depends where in the United States.

There are places where even 60K could be comfortable, but there are a FEW places where 120K faces the same stresses you are facing... and what you have are poverty wages.

Now if you are talking of 250K or above... for sure you are mostly correct. A medical emergency, which is the ironic part, can wipe out even a family making that much.

Also realize, and this is the same lecture I gave many a Navy wife, when my hubby was still in the service and this is something I do to this day. PAY yourself at the beginning of the month, Even ten bucks will make a difference. That is the true reason why when my washing machine quit, we were able to replace it. Before you say it, hubby does not make that much.

Reevaluate what is actually a necessity.

I got rid of cable television about 5 years ago. That's saved me close to 4K. I got rid of the landlines for our business and home because cell coverage was cheaper. That saves me about 3K per year. I drive older vehicles and keep them maintained. Even with repair costs, I spend less than I would with a car payment.

Petite Bourgeois is really proletariat.

and I feel you. The $600 - $1200 random monthly bill is what prevents my family from getting out of debt.

I think that's what bothers me about this whole thing. I'm more than happy helping the actual poor. But you have to realize that few people in our country are actually poor.

Until you compare yourself to someone who has 10 times more than you do, then suddenly you 'feel' poor. But let me ask a question or two:

1. Do you have a roof over your head?
2. Do you have clothes on your back?
3. Do you have food to eat?

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then I agree, you are poor and it would be moral duty to help you out in some way.

If the answer to all of these questions is 'yes', then you are not poor, you are simply whining. Life is hard, take heart that you have basic needs met, several million people in this world do not.

I've seen actual poor people. I've been to Mexico, India, Indonesia, etc. Trust me when I say that the 'poor' people in the USA are rich in comparison to poor people in other places. I've got photos of people living in tarps and shanty's with children who they cannot afford to buy shoes for and who rarely get enough calories to sustain them at a healthy level.

So my response to this is not from lack of compassion, it's indignation that someone who has a job and can afford a car, a dog, clothing, food and a house thinks of themselves as poor and in need of assistance.

:hi:

And welcome to DU. :hi:

I honestly don't know how much bigger the top 5% of this country have to make the middle finger they give the rest of us on a constant basis, in order for the 95% of the people in the US to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Those bills make them richer, they get it. Stop giving them a pass as if they somehow woke up one morning and put all those mechanisms to funnel our wealth into their pockets just by sheer coincidence.

Real poor people don't have cars or laptop computers.

Real poor people who have pets can't afford to take them to a vet at all.

Real poor people don't spend $700 fixing a window that their dog blew out, because they either don't have windows or live in a place where the window is owned by a landlord, who doesn't allow tenants to keep dogs. (And a window that costs $700 to replace must be a damn nice window, not something you'd find in any Section 8 housing I've ever seen).

What the hell were you thinking spending $500 to FAIL to fix a power connection on a laptop? If the problem couldn't be fixed with $5 worth of parts from Radio Shack, you could have bought a decent used laptop for that amount of money.

Real poor people get nickle-and-dimed to death on check cashing fees and bus fares, and things like toilet paper and bread, because they are forced to buy those things in small quantities at local mom and pop stores that have high markups.

Otherwise I'd be spending every bit of "disposable income" on getting the hell out of debt. Car loan, and motorcycle. One of those things I don't need and I realize that. It was something I did and I can't blame anyone else for it so I don't. I have a plan, that by 2015, the only thing I'll owe is my mortgage. This is a struggle because I'm making giant payments on loans. I feel like a sucker, but I'm playing this "credit game" and trying to live comfortably. I'm also putting my girlfriend through school. Now I find out that the back patio is sinking in towards the house. $700.00 to have it jack-hammered out and hauled away. Add to that the $6000.00 sewer line that had to be replaced, (something they don't show you in a home inspection by the way...). For the first time in a long time I think I will actually be able to save a bit of cash this month. I'm trying to cut things out of life like buying shit, happy-hours after work, and crazy-high restaurant bills. I look around at all of the "things" I've acquired and said, "ENOUGH". I don't fucking need anything else!

The fucked up things is, and I'm convinced of this, if I was making 100k a year, I'd be in the same situation, having a nicer house with a bigger payment.

Stay thirsty my friends? No, stay out of debt! Stop feeding the beast.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

In fact, you could easily change just that last sentence to make it a liberal, conservative, libertarian, socialist, communist or anarchist rant.

Ethiopia overthrew the Monarch, Ras Tafari (Haile Selassie) and installed a Marxist government. Castro wouldn't have been possible if the ruling elite hadn't fucked over the poor and middle class. Hey fat cats, maybe you should stop ripping us off. You put us into a position where we have nothing to lose, we will fight in that manner. At this time you are a pain in the neck, it's best you back off before we see you as a mortal threat.

$100 cell phone bills

$120 cable TV bills

$150 Electrical Bills

$$$ Credit Card bills...

the people earning 100K a yr in louisiana are mostly republicans and mostly don't consider the rest of us to be anything but dirt under their feet, it's the south, they put a fake smile on it, but they certainly don't consider a person w. a blue collar job to be equal or deserving of decent pay, why would they care that we feel grief when our pets suffer and get sick? why would they care that such prices are too high for "real" people to pay? they just don't

the people in this thread who say "but...but...but...100K a year is middle class" are missing the point, such folk may technically be middle class, but they consider themselves to be the elite, their kids go to private "christian schools," their cars are huge gas-guzzling SUVs with the occasional sports car thrown in for the guy losing his hair, their "toys" are boats not a new DVD player...

the middle class person with an annual income of $60K and the middle class person w. an annual income of $100K doesn't socialize together, they just don't, there's a huge gap there, and it isn't just democrats versus republicans, i think it must be what you describe "the little things that blow the budget" -- on $50K a year a household can't buy candy from every brat who rings the doorbell selling for a band trip to rome, on $100K a year this type of nuisance expense is not a problem -- they'll set up things like homeowner's association fees, buying stupid-ass girl scout cookies, etc. -- a million little unexpected expenses that add up to nothing to them but if you participate in all the office gift exchanges and neighborhood "fees" then you don't have the money to get that unexpected car repair...and they truly DO NOT get it

if you don't have money to spend freely, you are just not considered on the same level as they are, you are "tacky" because you are trying to take care of yourself and your future by saving money for the unexpected

i can't speak to places like manhattan where $100K is minimum wage, and i suspect neither can anyone else in this thread, i live in louisiana and $100K is a BIG salary and the person receiving it has a VERY DAMNED GOOD opinion of himself as better than the rest of us...(there are exceptions to the rule but for the most part...i have posed and passed as a rich person on many occasions over the years to get where i needed to be and there is no question that someone making $100K is at very high risk to have little or no empathy for someone making half that)