If everybody truly believed in reincarnation, the world just might be a better place

I'm serious. Just think about this for a few minutes.

If you *knew* and I mean KNEW for a certainty that after you died, you would be making a return appearance somewhere, sometime on this planet, would you do more to make the world, everywhere, a better place?

You might come back to be born in Afghanistan. Or Pakistan. Or the Gulf Coast. If you thought that, do you think you would do more to make life there better, not only for those living there today, but because you yourself might be living there in poverty tomorrow?

I believe that too many of our problems are based on the belief that after death, either nothing happens or there's some mythical paradise (or hell) that one will exist in forever, never to have to worry about poor ole planet earth anymore.

To me, this (belief in reincarnation) is a complete win-win situation, if the belief were held firmly enough, people would strive hard to make the world better for EVERYONE EVERYWHERE because they would have to come back again and again and again, and want the odds of having a happy life increased.

You can try, but I doubt you can dissuade me from this position. I've thought about it for a long time.

Editing to add for clarity: I'm not talking about karma, where one's reincarnation is based on anything done in this life. It's totally 100% random, like the lottery.

and I wasn't disappointed. I think this one took about 15 seconds.

Because that is what I see as one big source of our problems, collectively.

I hate to sound like a broken record on this, but bagging on religion is not going to get you or your society anywhere.

"All we need is another fairy tale" is definitely a swipe at those who believe in said "fairy tale". I'm sure you know that.

And I'll say it again - attacking people of faith will not advance the Democratic cause one iota.

Calling your faith a fairy tale is hardly an attack.

As long as people of faith continue to label any disbelief in said faith "an attack" it's unlikely to bring any advancement to Democratic causes either.

You're telling them they believe something that is demonstrably NOT TRUE (as fairy tales are not true). And only stupid people believe something that's demonstrably not true. So you're calling them stupid, which is an attack on them.

And you're missing the point of faith, because people don't have a religious faith because they can prove that what they believe is demonstrably true. They can't. That's why they call it "faith." You can't measure it and declare it stupid in any empirical way. You can have the opinion that it's stupid, but that's just an opinion--and if you express it, expect people of faith to feel insulted. As they well should.

Depedinging on the criteria used, religion can't be disproved but it can be proved to be pretty unlikely. Religion requires faith. In that way, it is no different from an adult who believes in a jolly fat man who lives in a gingerbread house near the north pole who provides gifts to all regions of the world in a 24 hour period.

Religion is one of a small number of areas where you can believe in something that you can't prove and not get laughed at by reasonable people.

Most believers would "attack" a grown up peer who stated they believed in the tooth fairy in the same way. Why do believers get a pass?

What about creationism? Should we just let that go without challenge because it's a religious belief? What about religious beliefs that are anti-women or anti-gay?

The most vicious people always seem to think everyone is just like themselves. They're always trying to do unto others before they are done unto. Believing that they would be making a return visit after death would do nothing to dissuade them from "defending themselves" today.

Let's say you find one such a person and you say to them:

"Look, I know for CERTAIN that after you die, you WILL be reborn somewhere in Afghanistan. Now, do you want to continue our use of Predator Drones in that country, EVEN KNOWING that soon you yourself and your family will be one of the targets?"

Of course, for those with no imagination, they'll never get it, I suppose.

...I think they'd remain 100% in favor of bombing and killing in Afghanistan, and change their position when they reached old age or contracted a terminal illness. I'm convinced that many people are *completely* blind to hypocrisy and inconsistency. They have fear, and their little well of cruelty, and little else.

I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't think people are nearly that consistent or rational, myself.

the masses to think they had only one time to do it right (which meant, of course, doing what the Church said to do).

You raise an interesting point...

chemical sensitivity decide early on to live as good as life as possible in the event there may be reincarnation.
We know what is in store and do not want to come back to this earth.

and I don't have chemical sensitivity, although I've known people who do.

I'm sure you'd see a global caste system in no time.

But I see your point, and that's why I didn't include the concept of karma.

I've always felt I've lived before and that I'll live again

but anyone who believes in these things and still does horrible things always just says how they are forgiven because they believe and accept god.

there is less incentive to leave the planet in better condition then you found it.

after you lived some good live or whatever.

I know it's a tall order, but imagine if everyone knew this were the case, that we are all just making the rounds, and we all get to act in every part.

Think of it like a play where every actor has a chance to play every part.

And if there is a hell, then it would be something like being born as a baby with aids, by a mother who is dieing of aids.

there are large areas of the world where people do or, at least until very recently, in my living memory, DID believe in reincarnation

i don't want to condemn whole nations as shitholes but the poverty and the cruelty in some of those areas can be quite beyond belief -- people who believe in reincarnation don't in practice seem to try to make the world a better place any more or less often than those who believe "this is it" -- in fact, for some people, a belief in reincarnation allows them to commit acts of true cruelty and bigotry, if you believe that someone is born a certain color or caste because they were "evil" in a previous life, you don't have to look into the hate in your own heart when you step on their heads...YOU may pretend to believe that it's all random what life you get next, but most people won't/can't believe that -- in practice there's a blame the victim mentality that seems pretty hard-wired into most humans to distance themselves from another's pain

you can tell someone they'll be reborn as a pond scum, but they won't believe, only that guy over there is going to be reborn as pond scum, THEY know they were a princess in a previous life and will be again (i've spent a LOT Of time w. these people, can you tell?)

this subject is rather painful for me for another reason, a friend spent several weeks investigating reincarnation and getting involved with others in our circle who convinced her that, yes, "it was true," she killed herself, leaving a note that she was not satisfied with the life she'd born to and that she needed to try again -- i realize she suffered, and suffered terribly, from clinical depression, but it does suggest that a belief in reincarnation can be hurtful for some people

if this world is not beautiful enough, if it is not amazing enough, to make you want to care for it, why would a belief in another life on the same planet at another time be any more beautiful or amazing? people care who care, and people who don't care have some piece missing out of them -- t hat piece won't be replaced by feeding them myths

i'm pretty sure that there are people on this very site who were born on the gulf coast or who are living there now, we needn't speculate on what we would do in some theoretical life after we're dead and re-born, we can look at our lives right now

honestly in my experience, at the end of the day, of the people i know who converted to a belief in reincarnation, they pretty much all became ineffective idiots, i'm sorry to say...

The problem is that the cultures that tend to believe in reincarnation also have the karma clause attached to it, which I am deliberately removing.

Think about it again maybe?

if you TRULY believe in reincarnation, then you are the kind of person who has to have some narrative that explains why you were cleopatra and now you're in this shithole in new orleans but one day, by gosh and by gum, you'll be on top

there is no lottery, the human brain does not accept "randomness" as an explanation for anything

even atheists struggle w. the mathematical concept of "randomness," take an atheist gambling some time and see for yourself

for religious believers, there is no "just plain reincarnation"

who's running this lottery? the louisiana state lottery commission?

there's no random, there has to be cause and effect, or at least the human brain thinks so...you can try to start up this religion and pretend that there is no rhyme or reason to it but it would be damned unsatisfying to the religious mind, WHICH ONLY EXISTS TO OFFER REASONS IN THE FACE OF MYSTERY, very soon, the belief in karma and rituals to change your karma or to have you reborn to a better life follows like night after day from a belief in reincarnation

if you REALLY believed in reincarnation, would you be satisfied with whatever body you got handed next? fuck no, in fact we have such magical texts as the tibetan book of the dead to provide magic rituals to improve our chances of a better life...

Well that's interesting at least.

If you believe in reincarnation it's way too easy to put justice off to the next life or allow "the universe" to handle it. There's also no reason to relieve suffering if it's because of that persons actions in another life.

Like any supernatural system, it's simple to abuse when you get to make up the rules. The Untouchable Caste of India might could probably tell you more about how the idea of reincarnation can be abused.

Very different concepts, albeit quite often entangled.

to pretend you can have a belief in reincarnation w.out people trying to influence what next life they get is just silly, the human mind doesn't work that way

Think before you post.

I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to untangle the two concepts and deal with just the one I was posting about.

de facto means that their brand of reincarnation has karma built into it.

You don't see that?

But then everybody would be believing in some pretty stupid shit.

Human birth is considered a rare and precious opportunity because we can work on changing our consciousness.

Most likely many of us may need to come back as oil-eating bacteria next time around to clean up our past action....



I lived for hundreds of years as a mineral,
And then died and was reborn as a plant.

I lived for hundreds of years as a plant,
And then died and was reborn as an animal.

I lived for hundreds of years as an animal,
and then died and was reborn as a human being.

What have I ever lost by dying?

(Rumi, version by Robert Bly)

People have had kids and grandkids forever. However I don't think it has made a 'huge' difference. In some ways it has, but in really subtle ways.

Either way, India was a haven of poverty and political oppression until recently. Partly because reincarnation was used to justify abuses to people living now by claiming they did something bad in a past life.

than I'm damn glad I did.

Of course it couldn't have been a direct role, but perhaps an early support role, before this life began.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about, exactly.

Hare Krishna
Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna
Hare Hare
Hare Rama
Rama Rama
Hare Hare

People eat half a pizza pie in one sitting even though they will gain weight (I just ate half a pizza).

People commit violent crimes even though they will go to prison for years.

People cheat on their spouse even though it may ruin their family.

etc., etc.

I do think the suicide rate may go up.

Infanticide would probably increase as well. Babies born with deformities or mental deficiencies could just be instantly killed so they can be reborn nine months later.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Because, one day you will BE the other

To me, reincarnation only would make sense if I could consciously remember my past lives and learn from them.

But as far as I can tell, I don't remember anything at all about my past lives if I had any so to me, its just like being born with a virgin mind rather than a mind with the wisdom of many past lives. So reincarnation just doesn't make logical sense to me.

So you can remember every minute of the last 24 hours? And the last 24 days?

Of course not. If you even tried, your mind would implode, or at the least you'd go crazy.

So did the last 24 hours never happen?

You can't remember any past lives because the mind can't handle it.

OTOH, I have had glimpses of past lives. Maybe because my mind is open to such things?

As the above posted pointed out, we don't remember things about our youth that nonetheless were instrumental in making us who we are.

I know many of us have met people that we recognize as "old souls" no matter their age.

and thrive to protect her.

Anyway, while ago I read "Many Lives, Many Masters" by Dr. Brian Wess that got me thinking. What an awesome book. I saw him and tried to get to him to sign my book, but it was so crowded. He was at Barnes & Nobles store to speak. (in Miami, FL).

I mean, you're saying that if people convinced themselves it was true, the world would be better. But it's not true. So we are supposed to repeat the lie until it "becomes" truth?

I disagree that it would make the world a better place. People already believe that they will be punished when they die if they do the "wrong thing" here on Earth. But they still do horrible things because they THINK what they are doing IS the right thing. Fred Phelps and his ilk think they are doing the right thing. Bush thought he was doing what his god wanted him to do when he invaded Iraq.

Believing in reincarnation wouldn't suddenly make everyone wonderful people because the bad people doing bad things just convince themselves and others that they really are good people doing good things.

Also, those people won't think they're going to be the ones re-born in Afghanistan or Pakistan or into some horrible life. If anything, they'll probably just convince themselves they're going to get an upgrade.