May 13 ...the day they bombed our own in Philadelphia.

25 Years Ago: Philadelphia Police Bombs MOVE Headquarters Killing 11, Destroying 65 Homes

http://www.zikkir.com/index/262608

<snip>Despite two grand jury investigations and a commission finding that top officials were grossly negligent, no one from city government was criminally charged. MOVE was a Philadelphia-based radical movement that was dedicated to black liberation and a back-to-nature lifestyle. It was founded by John Africa, and all its members took on the surname Africa.

<snip>The adults were hollering out that we’re coming out, we’re bringing the children out. The children were hollering that they were coming out, that we were bringing them out. And we know that the police heard us. But the instant, the very instant, that we were visible to them, you know, trying to come out, they immediately opened fire. We were met with a barrage of police gunfire. And you could see it hitting all around us, all around the house. And it forced us back in to that blazing inferno, several times. And finally, you know, you’re in a position where either you choke to death and burn alive or you possibly are shot to death.

<snip>But the aspect that many people are not aware of, that as that fire raged, we remember the fire trucks, as you mention, that had been hosing down the building beforehand, suddenly the firefighters were just ordered to stand down, and they allowed the fire to rage, I would estimate, for—it must have been about an hour. And of course, eventually, the flames not only destroyed your house, but then destroyed sixty-five other houses, all in the entire neighborhood. But the firemen just stood there, under orders not to douse the fire, because they were trying to basically force you out.

Yes they will murder us ...without a trial.

Oh wait...

No it isn't.

Could it happen again?

All signs point to 'yes'.

people still talk about that to this day, and it's still embarrassing

West Philly would have been consumed in a Dresden-like fireball: the winds were above 40 mph and it would have jumped block to block...

What a stupid horror...

thought they could...it could have been much worse than it was

You tell me what happened to James Ramp in 1978 and why nine MOVE members were convicted of murder in that incident.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/92943429.html?cmpid=15585797
But this wasn't 1985, when a MOVE-police battle would level a neighborhood. It was 1978, and the events of that August day - one police officer was killed, three others suffered severe and career-ending injuries, and four firefighters were also shot - laid the foundation for the later tragedy.

...

Some of those most affected by that day - including the three police officers who were seriously injured that day - are adamant in their opposition to the release of the MOVE members.

"Every year, it's the same stuff. It's a merry-go-round," said Tommy Hesson, 72, a retired officer who has an ugly scar stretching from his collar bone to his waist from a chest wound he suffered in the gunfight. "They should do 100 years. They show no remorse. They're cop-killers."

...

"It completely ruined my life," said Bill Krauss, 74, who was shot in the arm and the side, losing the use of his right arm and suffering serious internal damage.

........................

Grew up just south of there.

What happened in 1985 is hard to understand without the context of what happened in 1978.

The police action in 1985 was irresponsible and grossly negligent.

But it's irritating when the "story of the martyrs" is told absent the larger context.

Just that others here don't. What happened in 1978 had everything to do with what happened in 1985, indeed. And yes, the "martyrs" BS is aggravating to say the least.

The city was just out of their depth in trying to deal with the 1985 incident. What they did was just... I mean really... what the HELL where they thinking??? They needed the National Guard or SWAT or both. They just didn't have the equipment or expertise to deal with this situation, and they should have called in those that did.

Is not wanting another incident where police and firefighters get killed and gravely injured by crazy MOVE members shooting them not sufficient???

Damn.

Neither "blaming MOVE" nor "blaming the police" for what went down in 1985 is accurate.

I do not have the moral clarity of the "true believer", in which every situation is broken down into an "us" and a "them" and WE are always right.

But I certainly do recognize one-sided bullshit when I see it.

This was a cult with a history of violence which had been terrorizing the neighborhood for a long time.

So was the Philadelphia police department.

Lets rewind to WHY the dumb decision to use an explosive device was made. The police wanted to use teargas.

How about you ponder why they didn't just launch it in through the windows?

Well... they couldn't. The row house had been turned into a fortress and logs blocked the windows. Is that typical of your urban neighborhood decor? Philadelphia - the fifth largest city in the country with a population of of millions of African Americans... but somehow was soooo bad that EVERY African American family needed to fortify their home? No, just this one, and with a bunker on the roof having viewing slots with a commanding view of the street.

The objective was to break a hole in the roof to get the teargas in. The police did not stop to consider that flammable materials - i.e. gasoline - was stored on the roof of this "back to nature" commune in a city.

So, then, they had a burning house. Did anyone come out? No.

So, at the end of an 18 hour confrontation, you've got a burning house, and the people inside won't come out. I LOVE the notion that "firemen should have gone in and rescued them". Rescued them? They had 18 hours to come out of a house that wasn't on fire. NOW you are going to enter the fortress of a violent cult and just carry them out? Some firemen would prefer to see their own families at the end of a shift.

This is a much more complicated story than either one-sided radical propaganda OR one-sided "they deserved it" crap, and the story deserves honest treatment.

and it is shocking now. compare and contrast how that event was handled vs. some others, not involving black people.

:wtf:

They brought that whole thing down upon themselves. They were a quite disgusting, violent cult who, besides murdering a police officer in the original 1978 confrontation, initiated a firefight with the police, had an armored bunker on their rooftop and soaked their own and all the neighboring roofs with gasoline before the standoff. They would torture their neighbors by blasting their ludicrous propaganda over loudspeakers at all hours of the day/night and would beat them if they complained. They were so filthy that they bred rats and roaches that infested the entire area and would strew garbage and excrement everywhere under the guise of being "back to nature". If they were back to nature why not go live in the fucking woods somewhere instead of trying to force their neighbors into their foul lifestyle?

The concussion bomb that was dropped on the bunker was something of an extreme action but it was not the reason for the fire that engulfed the entire city block. The fire department had been soaking the house with a water cannon throughout the day. The gasoline poured on the other houses by MOVE members is what caused the fire and their shooting at the fireman trying to put it out is what caused it to go out of control.


What happened that day was a disaster and it was all the fault of John Africa and the rest of his stupid cult. I have no more sympathy for them than I do for Koresh and the Waco people or that idiotic Christian militia that was recently busted for plotting to overthrow the government. I am far from an authoritarian but there are certain standards of decency and lawfulness that need to be adhered to. They chose not to and they got themselves and a bunch of innocent kids killed for it. Fuck MOVE.


Google John Gilbride MOVE for another aspect of this murderous cult.

according the the official report.

No one could have fired a bullet that would do that at street level from a basement.

The jury didn't buy what you are selling either.

and not the freakish blatant wildass contradictory lies of Ramona Africa and the rest of her cult.

Since you obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and have just become enamored with Ramona the Minister of Propaganda for MOVE, I'll clue you in on a just a sample of the actual facts presented at trial and that the jury heartily agreed with beyond a reasonable doubt. Keep in mind that pretty much the entire episode was filmed and though we didn't get to see any of that in the news (graphic stuff like that wasn't shown in those days) you better believe the jury saw it. Keep in mind also that this is the 1978 episode we're talking about here since for some bizzaro reason there's people here that can't seem to differentiate between the two incidents... keep that in mind, indeed - MOVE did this shit TWICE.

Prosecutors used both eyewitness testimony (some of whom were Philadelphia Inquirer and Philadelphia Daily News reporters and cameraman) and video that showed MOVE members fired first through a basement window as police tried to break through into the basement where the MOVE members had barricaded themselves with their guns and their kids. Officer Stewart was operating a water cannon shooting water through one of the windows when he was shot in the first barrage that also hit Ofcs. Ramp and Krause. Ofc. Hessen was shot while going to Ramp's aid. In the video it can be seen that bullets coming from the basement of the MOVE house slice through the water spray which indicates where the bullets came from and what direction they traveled.

Ramp was on the sidewalk facing the house when he was struck by a bullet at the base of his neck in the area of his left collarbone. He was crouched down and hunched over at the waist in a classic firing position when he was shot which caused him to be thrown onto his back. Kitty Caparella of the Philadelphia Daily News witnessed Ramp getting shot from a third floor apartment window along with Daily News photographer Norman Lono who was also hiding in the apartment and photographed the incident. Both testified at trial.

Think about that. Ramp was facing the house when he was shot in the front of his body while the only people doing any shooting in that direction HAD to come from the house toward him and his fellow officers. Unless you have a REALLY crazy magic bullet theory he couldn't have been shot by any of his fellow officers. In fact, it was shown conclusively in court that where Ramp was shot in the base of his neck and the wound trajectory of the bullet through his body considering that he was facing the house and crouched down and hunched over at the waist the moment he was hit that the shot had to have been fired from the basement window of the MOVE house. This is the "downward" trajectory concluded from the autopsy meaning down through his body from the bullet entrance at the base of his neck. Had he been standing upright when he was shot an autopsy could conclude the this wound trajectory indicated he was shot down on from above. Yet eyewitnesses and film prove the physical position his body was in when he was shot.

Further, Anthony L. Paul, the civilian ballistics expert testified that tests showed that a .223-caliber Ruger rifle found inside the MOVE house was the weapon that was used to shoot Ramp as well as two of the other officers. That weapon was one of the weapons taken from the house afterward along with two .45-caliber semi-automatic pistols, two other .223-caliber Ruger carbines/rifles, two 12 gauge shotguns, two .30-caliber carbines, and a .765-caliber Argentine Mauser.

Even further, a palm print belonging to Phil Africa was found on a federal firearms purchase form of the Ruger used to kill Ofc. Ramp as well as two of the other officers that nailed him as the purchaser.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/92093604.html
How about doing a little reading from the Philadelphia Inquirer's reporting of the incident at the time and take a good look at the photos. Note that one of those photos shows Ramp lying on his back after having been shot just as eyewitnesses testified. Read all the articles particularly the last one that describes things prior to the incident.

Read also Kitty Caparella's most recent article here...
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/special/20100506_Cops_death_in_78_clash_was_a_spark.html#axzz0nvWqlBBN
((GRAPHIC WARNING: photo #7 from that article is *highly* disturbing))

There is no escaping that what the MOVE members did that day was evil beyond belief... note especially in the original Inquirer article at that time that before they started firing they let their DOGS out of the house while keeping their damn CHILDREN with them as HUMAN SHIELDS. Over FIFTY dogs came out of that house before they started firing and they made sure that ALL THE DOGS GOT OUT TO SAFETY THEY DENIED THEIR KIDS! And it wasn't enough that they used their children as human shields ONCE, they DID IT AGAIN in the 1985 incident and it cost all but one of those poor children their lives!

And WHY? Because they wanted to abuse their children and their neighborhood to their hearts content. They lived and forced their kids to live in abominable squalor with no plumbing, no running water and no electricity, shitting and pissing and throwing their garbage into their yard to rot along with all the shit and piss from the over FIFTY dogs that lived with them and all the rats, roaches and other vermin and diseases it attracted. They denied their kids even the most rudimentary education, denied them healthcare, denied them decent food, clothing, personal hygiene and used them as human shields to either watch their friends and parents die before their eyes while being terrified for their own lives or die themselves.

This is what Ramona Africa is partially responsible for and what she's grossly been lying about for decades. This is the kind of person she is and what she was deeply involved in doing. And here's something else about her that bears taking serious note of... for all her years of ranting and lying and supposedly fighting for the jailed cretins she insanely considers as innocents - when it came to the MOVE Commission that investigated the 1985 incident she refused to testify. When it came to the Attorney General's grand jury investigation that could have found criminal wrongdoing on the part of the city she refused to testify. The only time she DID testify was in the civil case she brought against the city that netted her a nice chunk of change. Think about that. The two biggest opportunities she had to speak out on behalf of herself and her "family" and have it MATTER in the interest of justice that she still insists she fights for she blew off as too unimportant to bother with.

And so much for that "back to nature" philosophy of living in squalor without plumbing, running water, electricity, etc. that was supposed to have been so vital to them they had to kill people including having caused their own kids to be killed for. Since Ramona got that money from the city MOVE has lived in a very nice tidy neighborhood in a very nice tidy house with all the upper middle class comforts money can buy including a swimming pool, tv's, stereo, computers, video games, cellphones, etc., etc.... oh, but the kids still aren't taught to read or write. And what's the excuse for this complete about-face on that philosophy they killed and caused their kids to be killed for? "You have to use the system to destroy the system." Yes, indeedy. Just like if you want to save the whales you kill them all. Or if you want to keep Repubs out of office you vote for them. Or if you want to grow your hair long you shave your head. Makes perfect sense... at least it does to Ramona Africa the Minister of Propaganda of her whackadoodle MOVE cult.

one could rec individual posts. That was fantastic. :applause: :yourock:

Well done.

You'll bring them down from their "fuck the man!" party.

What ever they did before shouldn't be a reason to deny a trail and the justice system. What the cops did is circumvent justice.

That's what the whole thing was about. The police repeatedly tried to serve the warrants and MOVE barricaded themselves in and refused to comply. They had the house built up with steel plates and bunkers. They were armed to the teeth and they started the shooting. What the hell? Do you think this was all just done on a whim? Do you think this was the first option? Of course it wasn't. These assholes wanted the confrontation and they got what they asked for.

I agree with you

the whole thing was one big mess in the end

- while you don't think of yourself as authoritarian you clearly seem to be exactly that. For example, you place the Branch Davidians ("Waco people") in the same category as the MOVE sect when the only comparison between the two groups is their resistance to authority. Aside from that the two groups are as dissimilar as circles and squares.

Your description of the MOVE group is rather detailed in explaining the need for initial police intervention. But you provide no such justification for the BATF's raid on the Davidian commune at Waco, which suggests that as far as you are concerned resistance to authority was sufficient cause to massacre those people.





4464

Not my own any more than the douchebags in Waco were my own.

Yea ...it's great that the cops can just blow up every one with out a trial or conviction.

Show me where I said or implied anything of the sort.

Since when does law enforcement have the right to blow up people or burn down their place? I guess that's ok with you.

I guess that's all you've got. Again, where did I say anything of the sort?

or do they not?

When did I say they did not? :shrug:

But they are not "my own" any more that the Teabaggin freepers are. I choose my own based on more critical criteria than citizenship.

That's what the cops came to do. Serve a fucking warrant. You answer the door, you take the papers, and you say, "Have a nice day, officer."

You then show up for your fucking trial in the fucking justice system.

It doesn't take an 18 hour standoff to receive service of a god-damned warrant.

And at your trial, it MIGHT be a good idea not to shout at the judge, accuse your public defender of conspiring against you, and demand a non-attorney cult leader to be your counsel.

She interviewed the lone adult survivor, Ramona Africa. Must see teevee.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/13/25_years_ago_philadelphia_police_bombs