Cyclists And Drivers Can Keep Each Other Safe

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126909906

"Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced in April that he wants to make cycling as important as driving. But anyone who's pedaled two wheels through rush hour traffic knows most roads cater to cars. Loren Mooney of Bicycling magazine talks about how to make room for all on the roads."

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It's worth a listen, or a read, IMO, for everyone who drives, rides or walks, regardless of vehicle type.

If there is a discussion, I hope it can be constructive.

Cheers!

:toast:

would use reflective tape or gear or lights that make it easier for drivers to see them. I applaud those who bike everywhere- I just don't want to hit them with my car.

It makes no sense to put oneself in that position, and it does put automobile drivers in a bad place, too. I would say the majority of cyclists where I live do wear reflective clothing, and have lights on their bikes. However, far too many do not.

I have almost run into unlit cyclists on the bike path on my ride to work. It's always the same two people. Thre's just no excuse for it.

I have two taillights on my bike and one on the back of my helmet. Up front, I have a very powerful headlight and a cheapo one set to strobe. In the winter, I sometimes wear a powerful headlight on my helmet too (to point at the ruts, etc. in the ice an snow so I can see them better). I also have reflective sidewalls on 2 of the 3 bikes I use for commuting. I have been complimented on my light setup by both cyclists and drivers alike.

I figure if I'm going to ride in the dark, I need to make sure the drivers can see me. Judging from their feedback, they REALLY appreciate it.

The problem here is that we actually have parents here who ENCOURAGE riding in the wrong lane claiming that it's safer.

Are they going the opposite way of traffic? Riding in the left lane?

Sounds like a public health education need.

Scares the shit out of me whenever I see a kid on a bike coming right at me.

Somehow, it remains. I've seen some people doing it in rural areas in Oregon, too.

(On edit: I was taught to do that by a couple people, as a kid, as noted above, in Wisconsin. I'm sure it was taught everywhere, but I just noted your residence.)

Too many people turn right without looking. I need to see them so I can avoid them hitting me.

If you ride with cars at your back you have no chance to see and avoid their insanity.

I'm not usually one to defend conventional wisdom, but there seems to be pretty solid evidence that riding against traffic is more dangerous in most situations. I definitely share your worries, though.

How you should ride depends a lot on the areas you ride in. I ride suburbs mostly, areas with very few pedestrians or other bikes to worry about. I try to avoid riding in traffic at all costs, because no matter what you do, you are still at the mercy of motorists. That means sticking to sidewalks when I must use a main street, and yeah, that means a lot of neck-twisting. 20 years I've been doing this without an accident or serious confrontation. I think the statistics that show sidewalk riding is more dangerous are skewed by the fact that the people least likely to practice defensive riding are the most likely to ride sidewalks. Defensive riding is the key.

That site offers nothing but speculation. Where is the solid evidence that more people are hurt or killed as a result of opposite side riding? If it is indeed more dangerous than more people would be injured as a result. If they can't show that then they have nothing but meaningless speculation.

Riding on the opposite side has been a reaction to the insanity of drivers. As a result I have avoided countless accidents that I would not have been able to avoid going the other direction (even with a mirror).

No one has any idea of how many miles cyclists ride in this country, much less what people do when they ride.

There would be no method to obtain that data.

How could you get that data? Hire people to watch cyclists and systematically record their findings? What would constitute a reliable sample?

The "speculation" is basic laws of physics: The amount of reaction time and the probable result if you don't react quickly enough.

You can do what you want to do, but don't pretend there's a rational basis for it.

Something tells me you didn't read the link, you've already made up your mind.

But that's just speculation.

There appears to be some listed in the posts below.

Saying that the laws of physics supports your data without anything to back it up is speculation.

Which one will collide with Object C first?

Try not to "speculate" when you answer.

Try not to speculate when you answer.

How clever.

NOT!

Being closer to cars is not what is in question. You need to know whether the decreased time will prevent avoiding the object. The same way the decreased time would prevent avoiding a car.

Is it just "speculation" that slowing the rate that things come into contact with each other enhances safety?

And why bother with lanes at all?

Since it's safer to see what you might collide with, why not have all autos go against the flow of other traffic?

Just saying that physics support it is speculation.

Other posters have the intellectual rigor to come up with a study, which I'm currently reading. It appears to provide actual support for the belief that opposite direction riding is more dangerous.

You could be correct, but if you have nothing but speculation your argument remains meaningless.

The other poster's study is 20 years old, which makes it a bit meaningless. And it's been posted quite a while which means you're a slow reader.

Read Superfreakonomics. There are no definitive studies about bicycle safety.

That's not speculation.

That's quoting Stephen J. Freakin' Dubner.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

You are admitting that there is no evidence to support that opposite riding is dangerous. Not only that, you have dismissed the only data that supported your claim.

I admit that there is no reliable data about cycling accidents.

However, as others have shown in this thread, your position is contrary to common sense.

Do you have any actual evidence to refute that?

And don't even think about using the word "speculation" in your response.

My position is not contrary to common sense, it is contrary to your opinion.

Your opinion is that (correct me if I'm wrong) common sense says the decreased reaction time due to increased closing speed makes reacting to traffic less safe.
My opinion is that common sense says that the increased visibility due to facing potential dangers increases the ability to see and respond to dangers making riding more safe.

Common sense, like facing cars so you can see what they are doing to react, as opposed to turning your back to them so you can not see what they are doing to react. Common sense would show that you have a faster reaction to events you can see, as opposed to events that take place behind your back.

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm

They found that cyclists riding against traffic are 3.6 times more likely to get hit, and that the risk is greater across the board when other specific factors are considered. My caveat for sidewalk riding could also apply here, though, to some degree. Those who ride against traffic may be less knowledgeable about and/or experienced at riding defensively, which I still consider to be the most important factor.

It appears to support increased traffic risk, but I can't comment until I've read and analyzed the study.

1. Closing speed. a bike traveling 10-15 head on into a car traveling say 35 gives a closing speed of 45-50. Compare reaction time to a car following a bike where at similar speeds the closing speed would be 20-25.

2. What is the car to do when confronted by the wrong way bike rider? A. Stop and let the bike ride into him. B. swerve into opposing lane, risk getting hit by car coming from other direction.
C. hope the bike dives off road to save himself. Compare to this alternative; Car following bike, has more time to react (see #1 above) and slows, waiting until road ahead is clear to overtake.

3. It is generally accepted that pedestrians should walk or jog on the wrong (left) side of the road facing traffic. He can watch the vehicle (Car or bike) and ascertain his visibility and the intentions of the vehicle. He can step off the payment without fear of spillage as might happen with a bike, if he sees the traffic is not yielding. Closing speeds with walkers is not an issue, but mainly, the pedestrian can safely make one side step to safety off the pavement.

4. Generally, a sober, alert driver, will avoid things on the road he can see, even rabbits and skunks. If the biker is properly lighted and attired for visibility he should only worry about the impaired drivers or texting cell phone users. These drivers are a danger to all road users, bikers and pedestrians the more because of their lack of steel enclosure.

5. As these various studies show, most collisions are happening at intersections and where vehicles are turning, misjudging speeds or not seeing the other party.

:applause:

As a cyclist, when I'm riding with traffic like I'm supposed to, and I encounter someone riding against traffic, it creates a lot of danger.

One cyclist must to veer out into traffic to pass. Often it's the person riding against traffic who volunteers. Sometimes, however, the person riding against traffic expects me to veer (as if that's going to happen) so it becomes a game of chicken.

Regardless of who jumps out into traffic, if a car is passing at the moment we pass, we're both toast.

So stay on your side of the road - OK? It really is safer.

Side street traffic is the biggest threat to cyclists and if you're on the sidewalk:

a) Cars won't see you since they usually don't look to see what traffic is on the sidewalk.

b) You'll have less time and space to react if a car pulls out in front of you.

YMMV of course.

A) That's true. That's why defensive riding is so important when sidewalk riding. I still feel that it is less of a threat than having cars and trucks constantly whizzing past inches away from my unprotected ass. Then there's the crazy factor. No one has ever tried to run me off the sidewalk.

B) Not true IMO. People who ride in the street generally ride faster and are less likely to stop or slow down at intersections.

This is kind of an old study, but it's shows that riding with traffic on a sidewalk, as I do, is actually more safe than riding in the street.

On sidewalk with traffic: .7
On sidewalk against traffic: 3.0

On road with traffic: .8
On road against traffic: 1.5

All too often, I see adults cycling in the wrong direction in a bike lane right at me. It drives me nuts. I generally play the asshole and force them to go out into the traffic lane against the traffic. I'm hoping that by doing that, it might possibly dawn on them just how dangerous it is for them to ride against traffic.

insurance. Seeing way way way to many bicyclists riding above their traffic and knowledge skills to the detriment of themselves and others.

...and the vast majority of drivers/riders already have driver's licenses, I don't think that would change anything.

I'd say have it like boats or snowmobiles here in Wisconsin... Require everyone to complete a safety course before they are allowed to ride.

Pass a basic test when you're sixteen years old, show up every few years afterwards to make sure your eyesight is ok.

In theory we should be more rigorous about who gets to use the public roads but since our society is based on individual mobility we let all sorts of people on them who have no business being behind the wheel or on a bike.

I am an avid Cyclist,Cross Country Touring is my thing.And I am a "Hot Rodder" at Heart as well...Love the sound of a Big-block Chevy under Wide Open Throttle.

Frist off I ride this...



I ride Aggressively,Constantly using an Offensive riding stance,Using every trick I can to Keep the Drivers around me aware that I am There...110 Db Airzound Horn,675 Lumen Light at nite (Some Autos don't have lighting this good),I "Take the Lane" when necessary,Meaning I use the road like a car when making Left Turns for example,I wear Tye-Dye as a "Riding Kit" (Riding Clothing),have been Known to use the occasional Tr-7,Prius (Wedge Shaped Car) as a launch ramp,Learned the art of "BikeFoo" to use my Bike to defend myself against Those who are out to hurt me or steal my bike. (I can Nose-Wheelie a fantastic Cresent shaped dent in any car just by swinging the rear wheel around as it is off the ground).

I am one of those "Arsehole Cyclists"

Why do I ride like This? Simple...Self Preservation.

Don't tell me you're too cool for them, kickstand boy.

And did you actually read the post?

Not that I care, but I seriously don't see any reflectors in that picture, even now. I see a headlight, tail light, and a helmet light, but nothing you can see from the side. What am I missing?

Around here all that promotes is an ass-kicking.

Or worse.

Must be nice to be such a bad-ass.

:eyes:

into the side of an automobile that has overshot the stop line.

You must not be very coordinated dude if those are your only options.

Or maybe you're just an asshole.

:shrug:

Most rec.Riders don't put themselves in High Density Car traffic areas,Commuters have no choice.

Big Difference out on the road as oppossed to riding Mass.St from Arlington to Boston on a Mon morning at 6:45 am

That is, I ride for recreation and commuting.

And there's plenty of, well actually too much, density of car traffic on my commute to work.

you and I Approach the same thing from a different point of view.

But I thought we established that already.

if you walked your bike across the street in the crosswalk like you're suppose to. At the very least if you were going slow enough then stopping wouldn't be a problem either. Surely you are aware these things happen and yet when a driver overshoots the xwalk you'll act surprised that bike riders face-plant themselves because they're obviously going way too fast for their own safety? Bike riders aren't thinking are they.
But it's the driver that's wrong in this senario.

And your parents must be so proud of you:eyes:

BFD... Hell I can dent a car wth a bat, a foot, or a rock but I don't go around bragging about it.

It only takes ONE to ruin it for everyone. Congratulations on being ONE of them. Now I'll view all bike riders as "Arseholes" and I can use your own attitude as proof thanks to you:thumbsup: Proud of yourself now?

Everyone thinks that the NYC/DuPont Circle Bike messengers ride the way they do (Very Agressively) because they (Us Arsehole Riders) are "Showoffs"

Please pray tell,How does a Rider/Bike Combo that weighs about 200lbs.defend itself against a 3100lb Machine that it being operated by a totally distracted driver who may be Phone chatting,Texting,Eating,Reading,Grooming et al.

The Same way Motorcycles have been doing it for years...By being loud and obnoxious.
Yes it is at best Rude...But any one here who rides a Motorcycle will agree...its about Self-Preservation

we just don't have 112Cu.In. Motors with straight pipes,so we use whatever tools we have.

Edit to Add: I as I stated have a VERY Loud (110 Db.) air horn on my bike....Thumpa,Thumpa Sound systems have nullified their effectiveness

Its limited to part of the MC community, the rest of us laugh at them. The stats bear it out. Loud pipes do not save lives and the disdain for safety equipment often found with the loud pipes crowd means heavy scaring at best in a mishap.

Smart riders use SEE (http://www.msf-usa.org/CurriculumMaterials/BRCHandbook2009.pdf) kind of approach to things. Keeps us riding in the long term. It has nothing to do with being obnoxious.

I do have serious horn power. If I have to use it, it means I missed something I should have caught earlier.

I broken my share of mirrors and dented some panels. I have out grown that. Most good riders do.

More than once it has been the thing I first Noticed as a Motorcycle approches me.

Folks...I Drive for a Living and ride to get to work when I live Close (Usually 10-15 miles).

As a Driver I see what the 'Average American Driver' skill level is,Belive me I see it every day...And it scares the hell outta me all the time!

Windows up with the AC or Heat going and the radio blasting. 20+ years ago, more people had their windows open. Also consider the physics

I am extremely aware of how vulnerable I am around any traffic. Granted there will always be accidents but I don't have to up my own odds of being involved in one by acting foolhardy = offensive riding.

and I have done lots of riding. The bike messenger types are going R-17 or more in a place with ridiculous traffic. They make their living by speed, but the rest of us do not need to ride that way.

Internet Bicycle Tough Guy must be the new meme.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_7139503a-62e6-11df-93ae-001cc4c03286.html

oh no a batshit crazy republican state rep wants to ban them!

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_233e0e24-6602-11df-a306-001cc4c002e0.html

My city has none but hopefully that will change.

I thought "batshit crazy" was reserved for Michele Bachmann. Looks like she has some comptetition.