Commandmant of the Coast Guard: The government does not have the equipment to operate at such depths

Admiral Allen is speaking at the White House briefing right now.

He also said, "Push BP aside and replace them with what?"


Looks like we and the gulf are at the mercy of BP... :nuke:

that we went ahead and nationalized all their assets... nice dream there.

What personnel will operate this?

See that is part of the problem. The oil companies have the ROV and personnel. We don't...

However, I don't think it needs to get to that. I think a deal can be cut that we won't send their executives to prison, if they let new management come to be in charge and use their equipment and workers.

shady and smokey rooms and all that...

:-)

This to me points to the major problem we have... since Reagan we have privatized so much crap and functions that it is not funny.

And I'm really asking here. I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand this process. I'm going by what I read daily but...

I wish it was possible and that we had the assets and personnel... but that went away a long time ago.

Should we have teams and equipment? YES... they could even be part of the USCG which at times has screamed as we have gotten increasingly, rid of assets to respond to things like this. But in the current reality, it truly is... we kick BP out, we need to hire another private contractor with their proprietary equipment, which will take time for them to assess and all that.

Truth be told, I expect this upwards of a year to be solved and relief well. Don't make me happy, but that is the reality that unfortunately we are faced with.

it effectively. You can't just sit down and start running it.

Let's look at an example that's pretty easy to understand. Everyone here can drive a car. Most of us can drive one with a standard transmission, although a lot of people don't learn that any more.

Now, imagine you got plopped into the seat of a large piece of off-road earthmoving equipment. It has an engine, a transmission, and other things that make it similar to a car. But, you're going to have to have training and a lot of practice to become efficient and skilled in its operation.

Now, imagine that that large piece of earthmoving equipment had to be operated by remote control from a computer, using a couple of joysticks, while watching what it's doing on a monitor. It's still a vehicle with an engine and a transmission and tires, etc., but you're going to have a lot of trouble operating it at all until you are trained in its operation and have practiced for some time.

That, on a simple scale is what is going on here, except that the equipment we're talking about is nothing like a car, doesn't work at all the same way, and would be completely unfamiliar, even if you could actually see it and not be running it from a mile above.

Very difficult.

maybe the Norwegians, who seem to have pretty good knowledge of this kind of thing? Is it only trained BP engineers who can do this?

equipment that's on-site. I'm not sure that would be the case.

Bottom line is that for each robot submersible, there are probably only a few qualified operators on the planet. Seriously. It's not standard stuff...not at all.

We'd be better off hiring the ones already there...but they're already at work, and BP's paying them already.

Just get rid of the business managers and profit managers. This ain't rocket science. BP workers don't benefit when BP breaks the rules and endangers their lives. They were forced to speed production for corporate profit. We can nationalize BP, seize their assets to pay off the bills, and tell the workers and managers to be completely honest with the government and the American people. Hell, we can probably even give them a goddamn raise.

The real reason we can't nationalize BP isn't know-how, it's the stock market panic that would ensue.

:thumbsup:

US has about as much claim to Nationalize BP as Brazil has to nationalize Google or China has to nationalize Exxon.

refuse to cooperate under new management, but we do need new management. If BP doesn't want that then I believe the President has powers to comandeer equipment in times of emergencies. It has been done during wars.

for this.

And he is right, to a point. Their choice is simple and faustian... who do you hire?

We lack the capacity to do this in the public sector.

Should we have it? YES, but the reality is we don't.

So he has to deal with that reality.

I also expect this to take upwards of a year... to be honest and a relief well.

And that don't make me happy... but we need to deal with reality.

The fact is that what is being offered in the Admiral's statement is a straw man argument. He is offering the choices are BP or nothing. I think the reason the White House is extending this BS talking point is that they have decided that they will be safer politically if they can lay everything at BP's doorstep.

NOBODY thinks that. At all.

Some people however do believe that BP cannot be trusted to do what is best for the Gulf of Mexico and for its shorelines. What motivates BP is not what motivates we the people of the United States. Some of us further believe that no one outside of BP is willing to step in and ensure that this situation is being handled in the best possible way. My personal belief is that everyone who understands how bad this situation is also understands that it is going to get much worse before it gets better, and whoever is perceived to be running the show when it does will get the blame whether it is justified or not. If the US govt were to take absolute command over the operation all that follows would be blamed on them, even though ultimately it is BP et al who is to blame here.

I do wish that for once politicians would stop worrying about their careers and worry more about doing their fucking job, but when has that ever happened?

and hired a contractor to operate it, we would hear howls of outrage from the right that Barack Obama was 'nationalizing' the petroleum companies.

Besides, I prefer that BP remain in charge for liability purposes; it's their mess, and I want them held responsible for its cleanup all the way. If the government intervenes, I'd expect BP to attempt weaseling out of their responsibilities.

matter how untrue it is. It's time to ignore that peanut gallery and get on with running this country and this planet for the greater good.

By kicking out the people who know more about that operation than anyone on the planet? Who better than oil company personnel to operate that equipment? Who do you suggest take their place? Are BP engineers deliberately 'holding back' for some ill-defined reason? Employment of Occam's razor cuts down on overwrought, reactionary responses.

They do what they are told by them. If new overseers come in with a different outcome goals, then maybe we can get two opinions and that is never a bad thing. I never suggested changing the workers or even the execs. I think the execs need some supervision though and fresh thinking that isn't about the bottom line because this is what it's about.

1. Realistically, BP are the only ones who can stop the leak before September. They may still fail, but replacing them with "smart government engineers", or "another contractor" is not going to speed up the timeline.

2. BP needs to know there is no exit for them other than fixing the problem. On their nickel. BP needs to feel this as a matter of life and death for them.

3. The government should focus its energies and talents on protecting the environment - contributing what they can, and sourcing the rest. For example:

a. Contract every oil skimmer they can find on the planet, and get them to the gulf. And send the bills to BP.
b. Get someone building miles and miles of protective boom, and other such stuff. And send the bills to BP.
c. Find out what capabilities other oil companies can contribute, and contract for that. And send the bills to BP.
d. Crank up research on remediating oil-fouled coastline. And send the bills to BP.

I wish more were being done to ensure item 2 above. Some would say that there may be a lot of pressure being put on them behind the scenes, but I see little evidence to support that.

I wish we devoted more energies to the clean-up and let BP handle plugging the leak, as you say, but I fear that even our best efforts will result in a lot of wildlife and shoreline lost and our govt would prefer BP stay on the hook for that as well. In other words they don't WANT to be in charge of an effort that is destined to fail mightily.

So Jindal's HURRY UP DO IT NOW bullshit was just that, bullshit that a lot of DUers fell for like the Iran bullshit.

Smarter than BP's petroleum engineers, smarter than anyone in the Obama administration, smarter than the Commandant of the Coast Guard, etc. Did sleeping in a Holiday Inn Express have anything to do with this sudden acquisition of sofa king smarts?

:evilgrin:

Now, where did I hear that? :rofl:

:nuke:

He strikes again!

:mad:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/7719941/Gulf-of-Mexico-oil-spill-James-Cameron-offers-private-submarines-to-help-BP-clean-up.html

So what's the excuse now?

:sarcasm:

Our government claims not to have manned subs capable of going down that deep. Cameron offered HIS. Therefore the argument that we can't take over because only BP (who cares more about recovering profit than about stopping the gusher) has the deep-water equipment to get access to the site is no longer a valid excuse. We can use Cameron's subs to get down there and take over observation, cleanup, and analysis so that BP is no longer running around on a free leash in the Gulf, doing (and not doing) whatever they damned well please without any meaningful government scrutiny whatsoever. They can continue their efforts to stop the leaks, but this time with the entire nation watching EVERYTHING they're doing...not just what they choose to show us.

But if snark and :sarcasm: are what float your boat, by all means, indulge away.

specialized robotic submersibles there, actually working at the wellsite. Still, it would be good to be able to send an observer down there.

You seem to be missing the point that it is tools that are needed, and those robotic tools are already down there on the ocean floor. Cameron's sub is not designed for oil rig work. The tools that are there are specifically designed for that work.

The point is to get government oversight down there so we don't have to rely solely on BP to be honest. How can Obama make decisions when the only information he has about "Ground Zero" is what BP chooses to tell him? And what motivation does BP have to tell us the truth when there's no way for the government to do independent analysis and oversight?

a shame we are completely vulnerable to and at the mercy of accidents/culpable criminal negligence of the oil companies that could inflict incalculable damage to the economy, livelihoods of countless citizens, and the environment for decades to come. :shrug:

No one has the equipment to work on the gusher?

FAIL.