If you've witnessed all the evidence you need, please check-in. It's time for Public Mass Transit.

Electric rail. Light rail. City buses, as we develop electric driven zero emission/reduced emission city buses and hybrid buses.


Cleaner/ZE buses..
http://www.environmentalleader.com/2009/05/06/electric-city-bus-exceeds-21-mpg-equivalent/
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=1074

Paid for by a federal gas/diesel tax and..

TAX BIG OIL FOR DECADES OF STIFLING PUBLIC TRANSIT IN ALMOST EVERY URBAN AREA IN AMERICA.

Big Oil- long the enemy of public transit/mass transit. Bus/train riders aren't addicted to gasoline.

Big Oil is the reason why America has a third-world public transit system.

Public transit in the third-world is fairly efficient. They don't have the money to buy private cars and continually pour gasoline or diesel into them. The buses may be well worn and overcrowded, but they are there, unlike the complete absence in the U.S.

:fistbump:

:hi:

(But I still want to strangle the idiots who run the Rio subway. Ah well.)

and I didn't bother owning a car for many years. When I moved to a place with an off street parking spot, I got a jalopy for trips out to the burbs for cheaper food and to visit people outside the city.

Now I live in flyover country and public mass transit is just a dream out here. Towns are separated by huge distances. Greyhound is about it, and it doesn't serve everyone.

Mass transit makes a great deal of sense for urban corridors. We finally got high speed rail to the exurbs north and south, something that will help them survive. However, expecting it to serve all the towns in this state that are so spread out is unrealistic.

The single family vehicle is going to have to be used in flyover country.

Especially, as you suggest, on the local level. I've traveled extensively in Europe, and out away from the urban centers, there's plenty of cars. Small towns might have 2 or 3 trains A DAY there. And there's alot of "you can't get there from here" aspect to it as well. It's all designed to take you to the MAJOR urban center.

Even in moderately suburban areas, there just isn't the density of people, nor destinations, to make large scale public transport effective.

So there needs to be highly efficient, low impact vehicles available. The beginning of the rise of the "hybrid" will lead to the "practically all electric" vehicle, which will help us optimize our energy usage for transportation, as PART of the solution that will also include mass transit where functionally useful.

I have never found a town, no matter how obscure, that didn't at least have frequent bus service, if not train service. (And I've been to some pretty obscure places with no tourist trade whatsoever.)

it is a very doable system if you have the imagination and have a real desire to spread facilities equitably. Japan is like what, fourth?, in terms of equitability of wealth and services, if i remember correctly.

so from our experience, it's not a question of possibility, it is a question of will.

Here some asshole's nephew or cousin has to make obscene profits and make the bus service too high priced to be viable. What do the idiot Republicans say? "The free market can do it better." So we get no local non-profit transit. Of course there are exceptions. But fuck a bunch of Republicans.

decided to implement "universal design" in all public facilities and amenities and to encourage private businesses to do the same. The idea is to provide barrier-free access to people with disabilities and the elderly and to make information and consultation in multiple languages available to foreign residents and visitors. This was launched with a public education campaign that included units in the public schools. One of the themes of the project was something like, "Yes, maybe you don't need these considerations now, but most likely, you'll grow old some day, and you may become disabled, so don't go around saying that it's a waste because you don't need it."

Isn't it refreshing. Thank you, Lydia.

Sierra Madre to Union Station downtown and on out to the East side of Los Angeles. I ride it as often as I can. Beats parking downtown. It is quite popular. The cars are very full at rush hour and busy at other times. It has worked out very well. From Union Station, riders can not only go East but also get on other trains including Amtrak and trains that go to the suburbs. It's great. I love it.

number of times. Plus it was/is very easy to get to anti war demonstrations in LA when you are in Orange County.

Poland looks a lot like Iowa, and there are lots of little towns out in the middle of nowhere. But unlike Iowa, if you live in a small town of 400 people in Poland, there are still public transportation options. There are bus stops on the main roads, and there are local trains that stop about every 10km where there is a platform and a few houses. Some type of public transport goes by maybe 6 or 12 times a day, so you can plan your activities around it. Contrast that to the US, where train tracks have been ripped out or paved over and there are NO rail options, and where buses do not make local stops to pick up or drop off (except in music videos where yellow ribbons are tied around the old oak tree).

I use Poland as an example, and more countries follow that transportation model than follow the American model of 100% privately owned automobile transportation.

Completely different ballgame.

Obviously, a mixed system is necessary and only a light switch mentality would insist on either/or. However, there are huge areas of this country where mass transit is unworkable.

You mean where all the towns are strung out along highways like I-10, I-40 and I-15? Seems like the perfect layout for public transportation, unlike farming areas where population is spread out away from the highways. Try getting some passenger service, either bus or rail to any of those places, like Winslow, AZ or Deming NM. Just because you can't get it now doesn't mean it won't work.

You do, however, need a critical mass of people using the service, and big business in America long ago decided that they would push to make the number of people using public transport the absolute minimum so it would wither away.

because most towns out here are not along the interstates or even state highways.

I can see how you chose your nick. If you would get a refraction to unWARP your eyes, you would see that most of the population of Colorado live along I-25, most of the population of Utah along 1-15, and most of Montana along I-90. And where is the bus service? Granted, the passenger trains went a long time ago, but there is no reason intercity bus service has to be as poor as it is. All I'm hearing from you is excuses, not reasons, for not having more and better public transportation.

and they get to them on county roads. Another thing you haven't considered is that rural areas are also sparsely populated and will need to be served by personal vehicle. Some of those places are down unimproved roads and there's no way for any pie in the sky, one size fits all mass transit pipe dream to serve them.

We can start working on solutions now or fall further behind the rest of the world.

The days of cheap gas are gone. Wait til the oil market begans skyrocketing due to the gusher. We all know it's going to skyrocket.

If you live in Houston, the nearest big city is Austin, 180 miles.

San Antonio, 220 miles.

Dallas, 260 miles.

Corpus Christi, 210 miles.

Brownsville, 350 miles.

Amarillo, 600 miles.

El Paso, 840 miles.

:shrug:

Houston itself is about 45 miles across if you include the burbs. It sprawls into the surrounding counties. Dallas is quite large too.

This is why I mentioned the west specifically, although a lot of the distances even in Dixie and the upper midwest are too great to be covered by any sort of rail system.

Add mountains to that and you begin to see the problem we'd have here in NM in trying to design any kind of state wide mass transit accessible by bicycle or EV. It's just not feasible with current technology.

Ranches here are not only way off any highway, they're often at the ends of miles of rutted dirt roads.

c'mon, it already works in other parts of the world, whether or not you believe it or have even seen it. no really, no need to reply, the rest of the world does know about rural life and long distances -- and atop that they go without having our luxury of cheap access to cars and oil and other resources. the rest of the world has figured something out, it is possible, it's already done.

it may not be perfect, or up to our expectations, but honestly what's not a work in progress? sure private solutions like bush taxis and the like will have to supplement any mass transit solution. but to say our situation is wholly unique on earth is again cultural exceptionalism, and thus illogical. other countries deal with similar and do it with less. we can easily do better because we have more tech and resources. the only thing we lack is will and imagination.

and that is why I suggested consulting a map to find out how and why.

advocate a "pie in the sky, one size fits all mass transit pipe dream".

Maybe the private sector can get involved, lol.

and up until the 70s, long-distance buses & trains stopped in or near most of those small towns.

up until the 70s, i still knew households that didn't even *own* cars & managed just fine, even out here in the wild west.

Someone always seems to jump in and point out the sparesly populated flyover states as a reason to not support public mass transit. For the size of our country, perhaps the only practical way to cross the whole continent in a timely way would be by air. But it's not all about flyover country.

If we start with regions with a large population and cities that would only be hours apart with high speed rail, it would be a whole heck of a lot better than what we have now.

I don't live in the Northeast but it's always appeared to me to be a model for how regional transit should be rolled out. And when I lived in Los Angeles, I had a customer in San Diego and chose to take Amtrak back and forth when I needed to go on site. It was reasonable in cost and less stressful.

Easier than hell to get around from giant cities to tiny towns.

Sadly we can't think our way past a muffler and stick shift in this country.

Not some pool of diesel-belching "dinosaurs" that run inconvenient routes.

Here in KC last year for several months, I tried riding the bus downtown. If I missed one bus, I had to wait an hour for the next one. They're filthy, noisy, and extremely uncomfortable!

Mass transit like I experienced when I lived in Switzerland: I took electric rail into Zurich from a town about 20km away, then it let us off at the station where we merely stepped out onto the electric tram hub for destinations throughout in the city.

Fast, efficient, clean, and if you missed one train/tram, another would be along in a short while!

Not like here where we have the illusion of "mass transit"

the grounds that it's too expensive and crappy, so, guess what, we get "diesel-belching dinosaurs". Another self-fulfilling prophecy.

maintenance of our car/highway infrastructure. Our current road-only infrastructure is unsustainable.

77000 structurally deficient bridges across America for decades. We can't even afford to fix what's broken. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act did provide funding to start replacing some of these bridges. At least that's a start.

Mostly opposed by car-addicted Rethugs, of course.

(I know you understand this stuff, patrice. Don't want to sound like I'm directing this outrage at you :) )

People that want to cling to cars need to be willing to cough up the money to pay for fixing our roads.

Take a nation with pretty high unemployment, people itching to find work, the need for a whole new transportation infrastructure and the job creation it would bring..

Seems like a no-brainer.

But instead our govt chooses to be warmongers.:grr:

:fistbump:

Members of our "underclass" struggling to keep cars and what that costs them in terms of their ability to provide the quality of life that they need to motivate not only their own work, but also to help their children grow out of poverty.

ALL sacrificed to the costs that they pay directly for cars and even more so also to what cars cost our economic system and our culture overall.

Is it surprising that a culture of economic slavery might produce millions of people who have a hair trigger to "proove" that their lives are meaningful in extreme behaviors like War?

Our government is warmongers, because we are LOST and we are Lost because we have accepted the economic yoke of Capitalism in exchange for our birthright of Freedom.

Mass Transit. If she had had the expense of transportation these last 10 years, who knows what opportunities she would have MISSED, because she couldn't afford to go after them, or might have been doing something else with her time, or her whole approach to business could have been different because it was driven by the economic responsibilities of owning a car.

warmongers transfer their greed to renewable energy and mass transit infrastructure? We would all be a whole lot better off.

:grr:

actually disenfranchises the young, the elderly, the disabled, and the poor, who are either stuck in place or have to spend money they don't have to operate a car.

of those self-fulfilling prophecies.

The only place in America where I've seen European-quality mass transit service was NYC. Buses every 10-15 minutes.

:fistbump:

in my town. Nothing. Unless I am elderly, of course. I cannot get from my town to Grayslake, which has a community college where I go to school, unless I have a car. Mass transit is an illusion in this country. There's lots of little towns that aren't served..no matter what road they're on. I don't think Blue Hole, Ky, has a mass transit system.

way overdue

:fistbump:

and if you miss said bus, r/t fare into town is $75.00 via taxi.

It is costly and one must travel into town for food/supplies at least once a week.

That said, you need a car. If they had some sort of decent public transportation that was accessible, I would use it and dump the car.

I lived many years in a large city and I did not own a car. In fact, I did not even want to learn how to drive but it was a required course to graduate from high school back in the olden days.

:kick:

I've been living in Boston for the past five years and I don't think I've been riding the same T that you have, lol. The MBTA is totally broke and very inconsistent, not to mention its older than my grandparents. But it serves its purpose all the same and does get me to work every day, although not always on time.

The biggest issue with this country is that its just too darn big. I'm sure the transit system in Switzerland is great but, its the size of a SINGLE average state in the US. Even the entirety of Europe is only half the size of the US. While most major urban centers do have mass transit it is just unreasonable to build mass transit everywhere. What we really need are electric cars, that is the solution.

but it does get you there eventually. Once you take a relaxed attitude toward the whole thing, you begin to appreciate it fully.

When I first moved to Boston, some of the Blue Line cars still had wooden seats.

Subways. They are not only disgusting and dirty, but they don't run enough cars, are way too overcrowded and unpredictable. Also the platforms are built for about a fraction of the people that they currently serve. It's dangerous. If you look up, it looks like the whole underground structure is about to come falling down any minute and when it rains, the rain goes right through the streets on to the platforms, sometimes flooding certain stations so that they are unusable. Ok. End of rant.

You forgot to mention that in times of heat and high humidity, you realize all the subway stations are urinals with tracks. Trying to hit the third rail while waiting for the last train out at midnight is probably still one of the great unnamed college sports in town.

It's a pretty miserable system if you do the 9 to 5 job and commute. Then again, they don't have train packers like they do in Japan, making sure the maximum number of bodies is crammed into each train.

Even with all its problems, it's a hell of a lot better than trying to drive in that town.

and I rode it for 20 years daily. I still ride it every time I'm home. It's at least as reliable as driving a personal vehicle when you consider traffic jams, construction detours, snow storms, and the time it takes to find parking in many areas. Of course we don't think of that when we're stuck in a tunnel somewhere.

Increasing the use of mass transit doesn't mean that cars disappear, it only means that they are no longer the only or principal means to get around. Europeans have cars --smaller, more fuel efficient, and used for far fewer trips than the average American car.

Put together, the EU is fairly large in both area and population. Each nation is equivalent to an American state. If they can manage at that level, why can't we?

I know, the geography issues. But honestly, America has a far easier geography for the most part (larger plains and smaller mountains).


It is not a one size fits all, but we need to invest in having an actual, efficient, and clean method of transporting large amounts of people. It is both vital for the welfare of our citizens, and to keep our country competitive.

I would imagine a public program, ala Apollo program, to revolutionize American transportation would be an awesome method to restore our economic might, and restart our production/industrial infrastructure. Not to mention the best job creation program I can think of right now.


Alas, that would require actual leadership... which we don't have right now.

forcing NJ Transit to cut one train per line and hike fares. Thanks Burger King.

he's done nothing but insert politics into everything he touches. He's destroying what is left of NJ. What a fuckin' tool.

which is good because we need to work hard on keeping Democrats in Congress. No way I want to be represented by Mrs. Hedge Fund or Michele Bachmann 2.0

But I thought you meant a massive multi-city protest march, which would also be good.

When I visit there, my first stop is at the nearest subway station to buy a pass for the time I'll be there. Then, I ride the trains and buses everywhere I go. If I lived there, I'd never drive.

My favorite trip involved a day off from the conference I was attending. I went from the Lincoln Center station to Coney Island, just for grins. Wonderful! What an adventure!

:fistbump:

i'm honestly amazed anyone drives in Manhattan at all. In other good news, more streets are being closed to cars and open for bikes and pedestrians.

benefit from bike-only streets.

:fistbump:

DO NOT LOVE going BLOCKS out of the way and paying for the privilege.

and just allow busses and cabs--no passenger cars. There is no need for a car in Manhattan.

and clean up the whole system (and i mean that literally, its disgusting), then I think most NYers would back that.

Lots of hypocrisy when it comes to promoting public transportation..and trying to cut back car traffic and air pollution.

I have still never gotten a decent answer to my question about what they do with all the millions of dollars they make from the ubiquitous advertizing. I mean there are ads EVERYWHERE in the system... Someone. somewhere is making a fortune off them..and why is it not being used to subsidize the transit system? Horrendous cuts were just announced..with more to come.

I'm just sad that it seems to be taking this horrible environmental crisis for some people to come around to that conclusion. And some still haven't.

My own father told me last week, because he knows I don't drive but was apparently unaware that I have been riding a bike for years, that it was really great that I was riding my bike and that "the next step" for me would be getting and driving a car.

*sigh*

http://www.industrialbicycles.com/BananaPeelTricycle.htm

:rofl:

I think a lot of people are starting to open their eyes. This disaster may lead to the 'awakening' that mankind has needed to experience for far too long.

:fistbump:

Car pooling is pretty popular here in northern Virginia. We have HOV lane when during a certain times during the day only cars with three or more people can travel in. We have park and rides where drivers in cars with less than three people can pick up extra riders so they can drive in the HOV lanes. Its called slugging. it helps a great deal, because there is only really one way to get to the dc/metro area, interstate 95.

It's not a lot, but we all have to start somewhere. :shrug:

Mass transit really isn't an option in central Wisconsin. The ease of mass transit in rural Germany was an inspiration. It was so easy and you could get around throughout the day. I do not understand how we can not have that here.

We don't do that here in 'Murka. It's every peon
for themselves!

Tesha

Right now, that would only work in urban areas.

Public transportation's great . . . when it works.. . . and if you don't live in a city like Cleveland, whose public transportation system stopped progressing around the end of the Reagan administration.

The Rapid (train) only drops you off in one place downtown, the busses in the city always arrive either late or not at all and there aren't even NEAR enough routes to the suburbs. Cleveland has long since needed an extra train line that runs along the lake from West to East. We have some of the worst weather in this nation and a public transportation system that doesn't accommodate for it.

and/or transit systems that have fallen behind and can't meet the demand. Service gets worse in these situations, people get angry, commutes slow down, simply because said city or county govts won't keep transit systems up to speed.

Its a self-destructive system when they de-fund transit. Service worsens, people quit using transit, further driving down funding with less transit passes sold etc. Often by design of course. At the behest of Big Oil buying politicians and writing laws to kill transit.

Gave birth to America's greatest drug addiction. Gasoline.

Thanks for adding that about Cleveland's transit as sad as it is. We need another Recovery Act dedicated to transit.

:fistbump:

The "end of the Reagan Administration". This is when we embraced the idea that private enterprise will do it or it won't be done at all. Ask Newt Gingrich about mass transit. Just ask him. You know what he'll say. "Public mass transit is a failure." Funny how mass transit is not a failure anywhere but in the U.S.

Right when Cleveland's system desperately needed an influx of investment it was abandoned. This is the Republican way. Unless some criminal cabal can make an obscene amount by cheating the tax payer (like in Iraq) it won't be done.

:hi:

:hi:

let's create jobs, cut back on climate change emissions, spend less on existing infrastructure, ease congestion and catch up to the rest of the civilized world.

In other words, I totally agree!

:rofl:

:fistbump:

if the Democrats even suggest it Republican heads would explode.

:fistbump:

I used to travel a lot in Europe. Watch the scenery pass, take a nap, sip some wine, read a book, chat with new people, buy a treat from the food cart...it was so soothing and civilized. Half the time the freeways here feel like rollerball!

Road rage is such an unfortunate phenomenon.

At least to me.

I'm sure the angriest among us get some enjoyment from it. :p

Asia, and of course the big cities in the US. I love taking PT.

The time is way, way, WAY past due. We need to make it happen.

That's for losers.

Public transit, where it exists, is great for transporting people with small carry on items. I have yet to see any public transit that allows the transportation of goods. So, how does one use public transit for grocery shopping, or, say, going to Lowes for a few bags of concrete and some 2x4s?

I've never seen groceries on public transit, but we have had very poor public transit (Southern Cal.), though it may have improved some in the last decade. Is it limited to what they can carry on their lap? How will that help folks who shop once a month or even less frequently?

Buying online is also no substitute, as shipping charges are generally per item, though there are a few exceptions (such as when multiple items are ordered from the same shop).

He sat down and set the bag in front of his feet. People moved out of the way to help him out. It's a pretty regular occurance.

Is asking people to attempt to learn a cleaner way of living really too much? I mean, are you aware of climate change and how oil, gas, diesel are destroying our planet?

It will require each and every one of us to make changes to our lives.

Are there no stores nearby where you live?

Remember, who chose to live in an isolated spot?

Your transit options sound very limited and inadequate.

She has a chocolate lab that eats like a horse.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

So it would be kind of bizarre to see someone carry it on a train. Maybe on days when people need to lug around a hundred pounds of something they could call a cab. :shrug:

Though some people have transported some very large music equipment on the NYC subway.

And somehow, it all works out in the end. :)

That's what they do in Europe and Japan--pick up food daily on your way home. In Japan, I saw a fabulous grocery store right in the train station in Hiroshima. Big items like furniture you'd have delivered.

Their prices are far too expensive for poor folks! Every time I've stopped in there to look for a "staple" (as in non-prepeared bulk item), they don't even carry it.

Lots of expensive and newer cars in the parking lot, too.

So instead of just wasting my time sitting around waiting for transport I can also waste time on seven trips a week to the grocery store instead of one?

I think I'll keep my car, thank y'all very much.

Time is the most valuable resource any of us has. You only get so much and when it's gone there's no way to get it back. So if I'm a selfish bastard for prefering to drive my own vehicle for 20 minutes one way to work rather than spend the hour it takes to cover the same distance on PT (and yes, I've timed it) so that I have more time to spend with my family then I'm okay with that.

We have a bus system here in my town. The bus has to stop to pick up and drop off pasengers and this is what accounts for the difference in travel time. You could potentially create express lines that don't stop between major travel points but unless you have them depart and leave from central points you still have a certain amount of wasted time while the bus drives around gathering passengers. Having the routes start and stop at stations spares you that but still requires you to somehow travel to the station and wait there for a bus.

Then there are all the vagaries that come along with using public transport, such as missing a connection, mechanical failures and the ever popular "dealing with the weather" issue (getting caught in the rain at 5:30 in the morning on the way to work isn't fun even if it happens in Honolulu).

Please don't think that I'm unsympathetic to your point. I fully understand that public transportation is a good thing and have used it frequently in the past when I had no alternative. But now that I have options I prefer to have more control of my transportation and time.

contemplate the people now using mass transit, instead of personal transportation, stuck in stop and go traffic. It wouldn't be pretty.

I imagine many people value their own time and convenience more than they do the well-being and healthy maintenance of the planet... regardless of how it's justified.

So how much is enough? At what point have I given up enough of my life to satisfy you that I'm doing enough for the maintenance of the planet?

My satisfaction is irrelevant. Answer to your own conscious, live with the consequences of your convenience, and justify it as much as you need.

We've been successful non-commuters for more than twenty years. I hope we can keep it up until we retire.

Living close to work, or working mostly from your home, is not impossible. Throughout human history that's been the norm.

I was recently looking at some old maps of San Francisco looking for the address of the house my grandmother was born in. She was born at home when doctors and midwives made housecalls. Her father was fairly well-to-do -- the company he ran had many employees.

While looking at the map it struck me that my great grandfather could walk to work! His employees could walk to work or take the streetcars. Nobody needed a car and most people got to work quicker than they would have if things were arranged as they are today in deference to the automobile.

The automobile has become our prison, a box to keep us in. Our roads and highways serve constrain our movement. We are not so free as we used to be.

Or do we have to do without investing in public transportation so everyone is forced into making the choice you have made?

I have no problem with anyone using public transportation. I myself have taken advantage of it when necessary. I'm just trying to point out that PT isn't a silver bullet that will solve all our energy needs nor is it an appropriate means of transport for everyone.

It's way less hassle than going once a week to a supermarket with a car.

I also have a spouse, son, two step-sons, a step-daughter and step-granddaughter to feed. Are you seriously suggesting I stop to pick up dinner for all seven of us and carry that home on a bus every night?

Are you seriously telling me you can't? Dinner for 7 people is, like, two shopping bags.

Also, ummm... why are you doing all the shopping? Cant your spouse or one of the kids help?

Sorry if that seems like an obtuse question but I'm also from a large family and we all muck in.

Transporting two bags of food is not as easy as it sounds. Especially since I'm also carrying an umbrella and briefcase (I'm on the way home from work, remember). Not to mention that I need to find one or several places to get food that are near either where I get on or off the bus.

And yes, my spouse could (and does) help take care of the shopping. She does this in our privately owned vehicle though, not using public transportation.

My point here is that mass transit has a place in our society but isn't a workable daily method of transport for many people.

I don't drive. At all. I have no driving license.

It's never stopped me shopping. Or doing anything else.

Mind you, I live in Scotland...

Thanks for giving some insight from Scotland.

:fistbump:

:hi:

I've ridden the buses, trains, trams, subways, and boats.
Those systems work because of:

1. High taxes, esp. on the top earners, and then heavy subsidizing of the public transit. OOPS! Socialism!
2. WAY smaller distances intra-nation than the U.S.;
3. A RE-BUILDING post-WWII;
4. VERY high gasoline prices;
5. The shopping areas, churches (etc.), schools, and businesses mostly confined to in-town/city sites, as opposed to malls and/or "industrial parks";
6. The heretofore relative non-wealth of the population, many (most?)of whom simply do not have the single homes and land that much of America has.

I happen to love public transport. I live 90 mins from NYC, and absolutely never drive into the city; always the bus. I love riding on trains, but there are none in most of eastern PA.

America would need such a radical shift in so many areas that I cannot foresee the above list migrating here any time soon.

If top earners don't want to pay enough taxes to keep the infrastructure from falling the fuck apart, why don't they just move to fucking Somalia or something?

What's so wrong with wanting to live in a civilized country instead of a giant parking lot?

America needs to prepare for a radical shift, or deal with the consequences of #4 and #5 being abruptly forced upon us by circumstance. (Don't look now, but #6 is already happening. The population doesn't own much of that land and those homes, the fucking banks do, while heavily subsidized by the taxpayer. Oops...um, socialism? :freak:

In other countries transport is more efficient and you pick up a few groceries on the stroll home from the train station. There's a world of difference between that and the screwed up system we have here.

:fistbump:

Oh, I know; your family drinks tap water.

that it is helpful, in this scenario, to keep "staple" items in your kitchen--

i.e., making sure that you always have rice, spices, noodles, veggies, etc. that could be used to make many different meals.

That way, if you do need to shop it's for a special ingredient, or it's to restock one of your staples. The chances of you running out of all the staples at once is slim if you keep them stocked.

(This point-counterpoint is becoming a question of best cooking practices, I think. :))

taking your car away. The idea was grab a few items every day when you are already in the area after work. This is about options.

But we Americans think we're so damned SPECIAL that we make up excuses for not riding the bus or train even when they're available.

We HAVE TO buy things in 50-lb. bags to "save money," only we have to spend hundreds of dollars a month on a car so that we can "save" this money.

The apartment I had in Japan was mostly furnished when I "inherited" it from the last American student, but when I bought a kotatsu (heated table) for winter, the electronics store sent an employee to HAND CARRY it to my place as I walked home.

and do your shopping, put it in the cab, and unload the cab quickly when you get to the house. By quickly I mean, you put everything on the curb or up by the front door, not making trips to and from the kitchen.

My grandmother, who did not drive, took the bus to the market every other day or so to provide for her family of 9. She continued doing this until she was in her 70s. Many urban areas in the US used to have grocery delivery services, and they're making a comeback in some places.

Concrete and 2X4s? Hardware stores here will deliver for a fee. If you just need a vehicle for an occasional delivery, rentals or cabs can be more cost effective than having to have one that mostly sits in the driveway.

An additional one I would suggest is allowance for traveling by foot with large carts, and camping, on what used to be, freeways and highways, that presumably would be seeing much reduced usage. This would primarily be a legislative change. I don't know how it would dovetail with "public transportation" as in bus services.

If one could make a two or three day jaunt into the city to get supplies, without breaking any laws simply by taking your tent and a sleeping bag and walk cart and being able to camp overnight near the side of the roads, that may also help some. I know that I've been told many times by official looking types with badges and uniforms that that is no longer allowed.

I know I've read family histories of the 1800s that that is also what some folks did in So.Cal. way back when.

It's wonderful to want to believe that everyone is a mini-millionaire and can afford lots of shipping fees, but there are a lot more poor folks who simply cannot. However, they may have sufficient time to take 2-days for a long-walk shopping trip to town, one day there, one day back, if they didn't have to pay $100 (or whatever it is these days) for a hotel room at some point.

Any system with trains, it's pretty easy to schlep home a fair amount of stuff using a granny cart or a big knapsack. On buses the granny carts are usually not a good option but I've seen them plenty of times. For things that are bigger or heavier you pay a delivery charge-- and for those who go without a car altogether those occasional delivery charges and the occasional cab rides still provide a net savings over the true cost of owning a car (buying, maintaining, fueling, insurance, and parking.)

Basically, as long as it:

a.) Will fit into a personal shopping cart like this:


b.) pass random police inspection for public-transit contraband (knives, flammable liquids, firearms, toxic or dangerous chemicals, etc.)

nobody will stop you from taking it on the subway. I once even shared a subway car with a gentleman who was transporting a full-size mattress during rush hour. As ill-conceived and poorly-received as that was, nobody stopped him from doing so.

Far more use buses and the subway in NYC.

and it is more efficient to have a scooter or van deliver to multiple homes than have several cars all arrive in one space to take away packages.

shopping works in a different paradigm in urban areas with high mass transit. suddenly delivery services makes more sense than buying a truck you drive everyday on the off-chance you might need to do some heavy deliveries.

you'll figure it out. Many people have, including me. :eyes:

Obama has championed this idea too, and I hope he acts on it.

But I commend Pres O for calling for high-speed rail.

He was serious too. Wasn't just pouring honey in our ears.

I hope he puts it front and center now. We need a national high-speed train infrastructure.

So, yeah. K & R.

Thanks for this.

We need public solutions for public problems.

Advocacy of the "personal choice" model by so many here - ride a bike, buy a different car, change your lifestyle - promotes the anti-government privatization mentality. "Progressive" libertarianism and individualism is still libertarianism and individualism.

I hate them.

I have to decide where I live, work, shop, worship, all based on where transit is available. And I'm tired of it!

wrong place

Thanks for adding.

:fistbump:

And good luck finding a job in this economy within walking distance of a city bus route! :grr:

It was GM that destroyed what was once a workable trolley system in L.A. That's right, L.A.

:fistbump:

A car is a necessity, and let me tell you having been forced to take public transportation for eight months, it is an inconvenient pain in the ass. People don't realize how much freedom you have with a car until you are forced to be without it.

My gut tells me that there are vast population centers that are underserved as far as mass transit is concerned.

I once went to Detroit and had to go from the train station to the airport. When I asked about bus service people laughed and told me to take a cab.

And of course, for places where public transportation isn't practical we could make small changes that would make biking much more feasible. Cities like Portland and Minneapolis do it with minimal expense. The whole damn country should follow their lead.

You have NO idea what it is like to be a 2ND CLASS CITIZEN in a place where going to where you want to go REQUIRES a car. The lack of a decent high-speed rail system in this country is a VIOLATION OF MY HUMAN RIGHTS.

My position is that mass transit should be implemented in places where it's practical.

MY BAD!

But it makes perfect sense to cover regional corridors or cities that are within a couple of hours of one another.

But in-city mass transit - absolutely... it should be thorough and convenient for all to use.

People who are unable to drive due to a disability or whatever?

People who can't even afford to take driver's education courses? (Maryland forces EVERYONE who does not have a license to go to a private driving school AND earn 30 supervised driving hours. Guess where you have to get those 30 supervised driving hours? Hope you got 1,500 for the entire 30 hours...)

Teens who are stuck at home because they are unable to get a car?

and in general, people who can't even afford to maintain a car?

I've done waiting for years for a decent public transit network in America, and if I hear the next politician saying that "they can't afford it" without a alternative they know, I will say this: SPARE ME YOUR BLOODY EXCUSES, I'M DONE WAITING.

People can work and read and talk on mass transit. It's not a waste of time, if you know how to use your time.

If I can take it to a salvage where there is a car crusher, I will take photos.

:patriot:

It should be strengthened where it can work effectively.

I take the commuter train to work every day from Claymont, DE to Philadelphia. On weekends there are so few trains that I have to drive. The whole transportation thing is a hot button issue for me. Why is it that you could travel from Leominster, MA to Worcester, MA in 30 minutes by train in 1945, but now it would take 3 - 4 hours because you have to go through Boston? Don't even get me started on trolleys in every city and town during the pre WWII period.

I have very limited ability to get places by myself because I can't drive. All we have here in Fargo are city buses and taxis. the only way I can get to Minneapolis by myself is by the once-weekly Amtrak route or by Greyhound bus. It limits our ability to find a job, too.

It is a human rights violation.

F'n sad that the 'wealthiest' nation, tha land of plenty, a so-called "x-tain" nation is so willing to leave so many people behind.

That must change.

This may not be possible ATM for you, but I recommend getting out of that area if at all possible. I know Fargo well. I grew up in northern Minny. Life can't be easy for you in Fargo.

Peace
UY

Do we want to be a society, or a live reenactment of the Lord of the Flies.

transportation innovation and improvement.

There is no reason sociopathic corporations should own and be in control of the nation's natural resources; in fact there are all reasons for them to NOT be in charge.

Out-of-control greed kills.

should be subject to strict regulation. In the UK BP is not allowed roughshod behavior like they are here. Why is that? Because the damned corporations control legislation here.

We are a bunch of commie, pink preverts (as claimed by Jesse Helms), but we also have a bus system that is fare-free throughout Chapel Hill and Carrboro for residents and visitors alike. While I still use my car quite a bit (more than I would prefer), it is possible to live in our community without owning a car.

Bus service is considered part of the towns's infrastructure, is extremely reliable even in bad weather (on the roads during ice & snow storms with nearly normal service -- less a couple of really steep hills).

One of the advantages of not having a fare box is that the driver no longer needs to check each passenger for a valid bus pass or paying the fare. Makes the routes run a lot faster with less time spent at each stop along the route. Really important during peak times, with full loads and heavy traffic; also allows boarding at all doors. It also removes the fare as an excuse for not riding the buses, particularly for short trips. Just hop on and hop off.

www.ci.chapel-hill.nc.us/transit/

In my case, while several bus routes come withing a couple of blocks of where I live, the grocery store is also about the same distance. Possible to get by without a car, though I use my car for larger shopping days. Some things really can't be done without a car -- taking the cat to the vet, for example.

I have a copy of one of the first bestselling vegetarian cookbooks, The Vegetarian Epicure, or "the Veggie Eppie" as my vegetarian friends used to call it, published in the 1970s.

I'm not a vegetarian myself, although I mostly cook Asian style. Still, I think that something the author Anna Thomas wrote in the introduction is worth noting. Vegetarianism was not nearly as widespread as it is now, and Thomas wrote that when most Americans imagined a vegetarian meal, they just imagined a typical Middle American meat-and-potatoes meal without the meat: just mashed potatoes and boiled vegetables, and of course it sound unappetizing.

She noted that becoming a vegetarian required rethinking your idea of what constitutes a meal, especially by looking at other cultures. Thus, a stir-fry over rice, a curry with naan, an African peanut and vegetable stew are all filling and nutritious meals that owe nothing to the Middle American pattern.

Similarly, a Car-free or Car Lite life is not just trying to live the American trophy house thirty miles out of town life without a car. It's reimagining one's notion of "the good life." That may mean moving into the city or retrofitting the exurbs to allow walking or biking or transit instead of actively discouraging them.

For example, what about foot and bicycle paths between the various areas of an exurb, so that kids can, for example, walk or bike to school? What about banning chainlink fencing between businesses on a highway strip--Does McDonald's fear an invasion by Best Buy?--so that people who work or shop in one business can move onto the next one without starting up the car again? What about pedestrian bridges at major intersections, so that the people who work in Acme Office Park don't have to drive to the Mexican restaurant on the other side of the highway?

Objections to Car-free and Car-Lite life are failures of imagination.

the rich, in Korean conception, wanted to live as close to the city center as possible to get easy access to amenities, and preferably on flat land so it's easier to walk around. our western dream of living on the hills away from everyone, having a private Versailles or Italian villa, clashed completely with this. Korea: the poor live on hills far away from the city; America: the poor live in the flat lands close to the city center.

the funny part to this however is that most European nobles also had "downtown" residences -- or rented such residences -- so as to be close to the action. the elite classes always had the luxury of both urban comforts and distant retreats. somehow America got its wires crossed and only understood distant retreats as the luxury standard...

funny, in a sad way.

Houses are almost all on flat land, and I once saw a suburban development under construction where they were blasting a small hill away in order to make more flat land. Kyoto, Nagasaki, and Kobe have hillside housing, but most places don't. There are all kinds of towns stuck in hot little valleys surrounded by mountains.

There are some problems - tonight they came to pick me up too early and I had to drive my grandson's car home. However, more people are beginning to use it and my guess is that the dispatchers will eventually learn to schedule the riders.

I bike around. 17+ miles to work, 18+ miles back home. (work is on a long one-way street) One hour commute each way by bike, 30 minutes commute by pickup if traffic is good, 45+ minutes if traffic is normal to bad. I've been getting faster and traffic has been getting worse. Soon it may very well be faster to bike to work.

Mass transit in Texas is complete shit when it exists at all. It's sad because it has made so many people believe that's all mass transit can be, so it's very hard to get people to support a big enough effort to really fix it. Naturally, Gov. Perry isn't exactly a leader in this regard.

More people could and would bike if an effort were made to make it safe and convenient. As bad as the hostility towards mass transit is, there's much more towards bicycles and riders. What we really need is a cohesive effort to enable and promote transportation by all means other than cars. Right now the road grid in most places is made specifically for cars; and buses, bicycles, and pedestrians are tolerated as long as they don't get in the way too much. Most of the time, anyway.

Fund them completely, and then, politicians, shut up about it.
If I hear another Republican beating his chest and boasting about how he's going to get rid of Amtrak I'll puke.
The world has turned.
The automobile as it has existed over the last century of so is obsolete.
And to a lot of people, this truth is far from ugly.

Funding at least would be a start. Then we need to consider expanding public transportation.

car ownership and driving aren't as destructive to the planet (i.e. electric cars, which get the electricity from renewable energy).

I'm in Pittsburgh, and outside all but a few American cities (New York City, Boston, Washington D.C., Philadelphia, Chicago, Portland, San Francisco and possibly Seattle), it's arguably one of the best mass transit systems in the United States.

but that rarely gets brought up here or anywhere else: http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/beyond.html

All they do is give lipservice to wanting to cut done traffic and air pollution. Public transportation is always at the top of the list when cuts come....

even though it's an hour one way at a pretty good clip (but it's good excercise and it's good for my mood). I cut through Central Park since I live on the Upper West and work in Midtown East. I have to make 3 subway changes to get to work and with service going downhill, I just can't predict how long it's going to take to get to work. Plus it's getting dirtier and more unpleasant. At least when I walk, I know it will never take me more than an hour.

the rumor is that peak oil is going to make those suburbs unlivable.

Guess they can become isolated hubs? Can produce their own electricity, which

I doubt we will waste on TV -- and that concerns for farming/produce/canning will

mean local stuff. That is, if we haven't so destroyed the environment that food

production becomes impossible. IMO, the only road to survival is supportive

communities and self-sustaining communities.

Computers might make it possible to work from home.

Needless to say, there has to be mass transportation connection to the cities/jobs.

By the way, what are our jobs all about and could we live without this "bus-i-ness"?

Can we live without throwing petroleum on crops?

Without all the plastic we've created?

After food, shelter, clothing, medical care . . . what else is there to do?



And -- keep in mind that the military is the largest user of petroleum -- so maybe instead

of begging for an end to "perpetual" wars -- we might be hopeful that peak oil ends wars

for us????


Nice post --

ONE DAMN THING in this country for the better! Sure, we get a small "stimulus" once in a while. Little bones that we're supposed to be wildly thankful for. But real Change for the better? Nope. No significant green jobs programs, no movement on that National rail line that was mentioned in early 2009, no sincere push for energy innovation outside of private enterprise, no cutbacks for the Pentagon. Nothing. We just seem to be stuck in this downward spiral of "more for the wealthy, less for everyone else" and that's about it.

liberals seem to fight, win -- and go away for a while to rest.

RW doesn't do that -- they're fanatics and driven by lust for money/power --

power over others, that is!

IMO, we have the leadership TPB want us to have -- the leaders we are given.

That certainly keeps us from any major progress --

My opinion remains that patriarchy/organized patriarchal religion/capitalism are

the unholy Trinity --

And until we do something about that -- their hierarchies of power that are embedded

into our society -- nothing is really going to change.

At one time, liberals did take over the Supreme Court -- look at the RW fight back

on that - we overturned capital punishment -- they restored it! And they've put in

place people who have brutalized the nation and our Constitution. Of course the

Supreme Court is political -- but who was taught that in their school classroom?

What we were generally taught is that capitalism and democracy were synonymous.

Actually they are antonymous.

:)

even if it would be a step in the right direction... we live in an oil civilization... one that IMHO is near collapse. Won't be pretty by the way.

From the east coast to the west and all through the rest of this country, just like we used to have.

It's WAY past time...

We built a single light-rail line from downtown Minneapolis to a suburb called Bloomington, home to the Mall of America as well as our International airport. Before and during construction critics claimed it was too expensive and no one would use it. Upon opening, it overwhelmingly exceeded and maintained not only ridership totals but also revenues generated. Simply put, a win-win-win.

Today the only complaints about our light rail are 1) it hasn't expanded far enough (and should be) or 2) stupid people are killed by jumping in front of it (and so it should be destroyed for more 6-lane interchanges so those same stupid people can apply for and receive driving licenses to kill themselves in a more humane manner than jumping in front of a moving train rather than waiting for the train to pass in 30 seconds.)

where are you going to get zero emission electricity to charge up the vehicle?

ONE TRILLION DOLLARS could have built?

America has a third-world public transit system. And Big Pharma + Big Insurance + Big Medical Delivery is the reason we have substandard overly expensive medical care.

So remind me why this is "The Land of The Free". Why do we tolerate this shit?

not everyone works 9-5.

That's one of the biggest problems for me and using mass transit. Make it 24 hours like NY does and I'd use it.

Where I live there's no public transit at all. This severely hinders poor people from participating in society, and moving out of poverty.

... We live near, and her job is on, very main arteries of Indianapolis, yet in order to take a bus to/from her job, it would be a 2.5 hour trip taking one bus allllll the way downtown, than catching the only bus that meanders in the general direction of her job, which is at a Community College and near a Defense Dep't building that employs a couple thousand people.

AND THAT's the ONLY route possible? :eyes:

We have a great system here in comparison to other US cities but budgets and service continue to be cut.

So sad that our bloated military budget can't include energy independence and alternatives to using so much fossil fuel for private transportation.

But, we still need our cars. America is too big and too spread out for mass transit everywhere--plus as others have said above, how am I going to haul home fence posts, 40 lb bags of dog food, and concrete patio pavers on a bus?

Sorry, but that's how I feel.

Most of the subway, light-rail rail-cars and locomotives used in the US are manufactured domestically, most in NY state...even the ones manufactured by European firms like Bombardier and Alstom and Japanese firms like Kawasaki now are manufactured here for the most part.

When I lived in Yonkers, the plant manufacturing subway and light-rail cars for Kawasaki was across the street from my apartment building. Bombardier's factory was 45 miles up the road in Plattsburgh, NY with another plant in Pittsburgh, PA and one in Barre, VT. The only major importer of rail-cars manufactured outside the US is (again) Bombardier who imports R62A's used on the NYC Subway from its plant in Montreal, CN with final assembly done in Barre, VT.

I think North Central TX has finally reached a pop. density in which large scale mass transit would be not only welcome, but much more than practical. DART, the T, and The TRS are simply tiny drops in the bucket.

When gas prices shot up and incomes were down last summer, all of the mass transit providers in NC TX were overflowing with passengers. IIRC, local media had daily attendance up by 20% over the previous year.

It can work. We may need to fundamentally change many habits we have, think out our trips a bit better, and forgo some conveniences we more often than not perceive as necessities, but all in all a good trade off when it applies to a proper and mature stewardship of this our only planet.

No question that we could go a long way in reducing the fuel use by really focusing on mass transit but this is a very large nation by land mass with a lot of folks spread out in places.

We need a serious rethink on individual vehicles as well. They must become smaller, lighter, and much more efficient. We need a whole different way of looking at personal transport and I'd suggest one that works well with national rail so that a lot of times people wouldn't actually drive long haul but rather ride and then drive off and about their business by bike, electric bike, scooter, cycle, or light car.

We need to be a multiple vehicle model people too, in my opinion.
Walk then bike then electric assist bike the scooter/cycle then (optimally) electric light car and then finally a long haul vehicle each based on expected distance and compatible with mass transit. It all has to work smoothly together to maintain our sense of freedom and self determination while always striving for efficiency in transportation.

No question that we need highspeed rail all over and quality, reliable mass transit within urban centers.

We just can't forget that we need to attack this from both ends and meet in the middle or the resistance and practical considerations will bring it all down. We can import other nation's mass transit systems to a large degree but we will have to re-innovate our individual transportation concept and have it tie in with the greater system to the largest possible degree.