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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-10 07:32 PM
Original message
Famed Venezuelan classical music schools for poor children gets 90% of its funding from the Chavez
government...but you wouldn't know that from this Boston Globe article, which is otherwise laudable, worth reading and very exciting, actually. The "El Sistema" revolution in classical music training for the poorest of the poor street children in Venezuela is an amazing phenomenon.

--------------------------------------

Conducting a Movement: Charismatic Venezuelan Leads Classical Revolution

By BY JEREMY EICHLER – BOSTON GLOBE, May 1st 2010

On a recent morning in this chaotic, traffic-choked city, a large room is bursting with a children’s orchestra. Gustavo Dudamel has dropped by to observe and offer words of encouragement. But the children have other ideas.

“Conduct! Conduct! Conduct!’’ they chant ecstatically from their seats. Protests are useless. Dudamel removes his watch, accepts a baton that seems to materialize from thin air, and steps onto a small podium. The room falls silent. For a split second the conductor beams out at the gathered sea of children. Then he uncorks a massive, rending downbeat. On his mark, 300 music students tear into the last movement of Mahler’s First Symphony, playing as if their lives depended on it.

The Venezuelan-born Dudamel is the most buzzed-about young conductor in the world. Having embarked as music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic last fall at 28, he arrives today in Cambridge to accept an award at MIT. The musical movement he represents also has spun off a program based at New England Conservatory.

Meanwhile in his home country, Dudamel is the equivalent of a rock star.

Something remarkable has happened with classical music in Venezuela. The art form has been turned on its head, shorn of its elite associa tions, and harnessed as a vehicle for social change that reaches some of the poorest members of this society.

In a country whose homicide rates make it among the most dangerous in the world, this national music education movement — referred to simply as El Sistema — draws children off of the streets and into neighborhood centers for intensive musical engagement and orchestral training. The program, founded more than three decades ago, currently reaches 400,000 students. According to its organizers, 70 percent of the participating families live below the poverty line.

Dudamel is a product of this movement and is its most famous graduate. As his international career has blossomed, the conductor has remained unusually committed to his musical roots. In addition to his post in Los Angeles and another in Gothenburg, Sweden, he still holds the directorship of El Sistema’s veteran flagship ensemble, the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra. It is the group in which he came of age musically, first as a violinist and then as a conductor.

As those who saw that orchestra in Symphony Hall in 2007 or on YouTube can attest, the group plays with great intensity and excitement, qualities mirrored and distilled in Dudamel’s conducting. In a group this size, the musicians also have a striking sense of ensemble unity. And for good reason. El Sistema emphasizes orchestral involvement from the very earliest ages. The Simon Bolivar players literally grew up together and grew up in orchestras. Dudamel has known some of them since he was 7.

Sitting for an interview backstage at the Teresa Carreño Theater, where he’s been rehearsing for performances with his orchestra as part of a two-week visit, Dudamel looks relaxed and contented. And why not? The work has been going well. The elaborate public relations machine that monitors his every movement in the United States has been replaced by a single old friend with a BlackBerry. He pals around with musicians and even the theater’s technical staff.

“Here is my home,’’ he said. “Here is my family. I always say they are my muchachos. Sometimes I don’t have to say anything to the orchestra because they understand what I’m asking for only with a movement of my eye.’’

For all of Dudamel’s conducting talent and charisma, all his Venezuelan warmth and bouncing curls, he has no doubt earned many admirers for the way he exemplifies the musical environment that produced him, one in which classical music has a deeper social relevance and children from a young age can be seen making music with a rare sense of exuberance and freedom. Simon Bolivar concertmaster Alejandro Carreño, who has known Dudamel since childhood, put it succinctly: “When Gustavo goes to conduct other orchestras, he’s not just Gustavo Dudamel conducting,’’ said Carreño. “He is Gustavo Dudamel representing hundreds of thousands of kids here in Venezuela, including us.’’

In his own comments, Dudamel makes clear how important it is for him to recharge here in Venezuela. A trip home is a return to the source. “I learn a lot from the children and from the young musicians. Their souls are really clean. Here, if you go to a music center, you see all the rooms full of people working, and they have a smile on their face because they are doing what they love,’’ he said. “This is what I always say to the professional orchestras: Remember the reason why you are a musician. You are a musician not because of the money or because of the job, but because you were once in love with the music. You were fighting to play it! Of course it is natural to forget with the years. You go, you play, you go back to your house, and you forget. This is the problem that I see in classical music — the routine. We have to destroy that. This is also our job as conductors.’’

Thanks in no small part to Dudamel himself, the word has spread about El Sistema. There have been at least two documentaries made, and a third film plus a book are on the way. Countries in Europe and the Americas are scrambling to understand the principles of El Sistema and transplant them within their own borders.

To spread the movement in the United States, El Sistema USA was founded last year and headquartered at New England Conservatory. Under its auspices, the first class of nine Abreu Fellows (named after El Sistema’s founder, José Antonio Abreu) have been traveling in Venezuela for the last two months to study how it all works. After their fellowship year ends in June, they will begin fanning out across the country to lead various El Sistema-modeled initiatives, often in partnerships with schools, orchestras, or existing community organizations.

“I think we’ve all been reinspired here,’’ said Kathryn Wyatt, one of the Abreu Fellows. “We’re all just really excited to get back home, to share our stories, and to start working to enlist lots more people so we can really have a movement and a critical mass in the US.’’

While critics parse his artistic growth and his musical range as a conductor, Dudamel seems to be evolving quite naturally into his other role as ambassador for the growing El Sistema movement. Anticipating his tenure, the Los Angeles Philharmonic launched a new youth orchestra in South Central Los Angeles with free instruments for its participants. During his brief stay at MIT, the conductor will accept the Eugene McDermott Award in the Arts (and its cash award of $75,000). He will also lead a rehearsal with the university orchestra and participate in a public panel on music and social change tomorrow at 2 p.m. in Kresge Auditorium.

Backstage in Caracas, Dudamel projects a boyish excitement about his many upcoming projects, including his trip to Boston. He can’t wait to eat — he struggles to conjure the words in English — “clam chowder!’’ But beneath his easy affability there is a sense of clear-eyed focus on the social mission that drives so much music-making in Venezuela.

“Look,’’ he said, “exclusion is the problem of our society. When you give a child an instrument, you are including them immediately. We have to try to give culture to the people as we are giving health, as we are giving food, as we are giving education. Music and culture have to be a right for the citizens. For me, it’s very important to say everywhere I go: Look, this is possible.’’


http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2010/04/16/conducting_a_movement/?page=full

------------------------

This Boston Globe article fails to note that "El Sistema" receives 90% of its funding from the Chavez government, and certainly could not have expanded so dramatically, with thousands of poor children now being trained in classical music production in an orchestra--the communal experience, commented upon in many articles, that motivates them to learn and to perform well--without that SOCIALIST funding from a SOCIALIST government.

"The Venezuelan (children's classical music) program receives about $80 million a year, mostly from its government."
http://chicago.timeout.com/articles/opera-classical/73275/orquesta-sinfonica-simon-bolivar-at-orchestra-hall-classical-music-preview

"The program comprises 184 centers around Venezuela and receives 90% of its funding from the state."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/10/el-sistema-documentary-highlights-disadvantaged-youth-in-venezuela-.html

The Boston Globe article further places Dudamel's own description of "El Sistema"'s social mission at the very end of the article, where "El Sistema"'s spectacularly talented but down-to-earth young conductor speaks of the Bolivarian goals of inclusion, of feeding the poor, and providing free education and stressing that culture is a RIGHT. "El Sistema"'s mission is rather vague to that point. Dudamel makes it very concrete--the RIGHTS of the poor to food, education and culture.

Dudamel is a product not just of "El Sistema" (which was founded decades ago) but also he is a product of the Bolivarian Revolution which put Hugo Chavez into office, returned him to office after a U.S.-backed rightwing coup attempt and has given him and his government huge approval ratings and electoral victories in one of the most democratic countries in Latin America, with provably transparent, honest, internationally certified elections. And that democracy revolution naturally supports "El Sistema." In fact, you could almost say that "El Sistema" was the pre-revolution--the planter of the idea that the poor have rights and are capable of tremendous achievements, if given a chance in the correct spirit--not to become billionaires and "rock stars" but to perform classical music and please an audience TOGETHER.

This IS the spirit of the Bolivarian Revolution, which our government and our corpo-fascist press tells so many lies about, and hates and relentlessly reviles. The poor have rights and are capable of tremendous achievements, if given a chance in the correct spirit--not to become billionaires and "rock stars" but to perform classical music and please an audience TOGETHER.

Our corporate overlords instead stress getting rich as the purpose of democracy (and music!). They equate predatory capitalism WITH democracy. It is in the interest of the rich plunderers who are running things here to isolate the individual peons of our system--the so-called citizens--make everybody feel alone and disempowered, "divide and conquer" us, split us into factions of women, gays, blacks, browns, 'illegals,' rich vs. poor, workers vs. professionals, and so forth--whatever divides us--so that we cannot exercise our collective will as a sovereign people, which is further damaged--an almost fatal blow--by items like corporate-run 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting and the filthy campaign money/lobbying system. Our togetherness is their chief enemy, and the togetherness that has been fostered by "El Sistema" and by the grass roots of Venezuela, and by the government they have repeatedly elected, is also their enemy. They accept a "star," like Dudamel. It fits their "Michael Jackson" notion of who is important. The subtle message of this Boston Globe article--not quite so crass-- is that the COLLECTIVE nature of the education that Dudamel received, and certainly the SOCIALIST government which paid his way--and that of tens of thousands of other poor children--are unimportant aspects of his story. The first is treated as "unusual"; the second is not even mentioned.

Here, we cut education--and cut it and cut it--to benefit war profiteers, banksters and multinational corporations. In Venezuela, the government lavishly funds education. It is a top priority. And it has shown great results--a near wipeout of illiteracy, a doubling of high school and college enrollment and 400,000 mostly very poor children enrolled in intense classical music training, some from age 2, as well as some 200 children's orchestras formed throughout Venezuela, supported by the Chavez government. While we cut teachers, close libraries and make a college education unaffordable, Venezuela is doing the opposite. They are investing in the future. And what do our corporate rulers invest in--they literally invest in the FAILURE of poor peoples' mortgages; they bet that they will FAIL. They make money from FAILURE.

I think that transparent vote counting is the key factor here--as to Venezuela funding education and our corporate rulers profiting from failure. Others may cite other factors--but if the public is barred from seeing and understanding how votes are counted (as they are here*), then the basic condition of democracy does not exist, and if private corporations are 'counting' the votes in secret, you KNOW that they are cheating. 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting with virtually no audit/recount controls, as throughout the U.S., is MADE FOR CHEATING.

The Boston Globe leaves out the second most important factor in "El Sistema"'s success. The first was the idea. The second was the massive government FUNDING of the idea. And THAT funding is the result of TRANSPARENT vote counting.*

------------------------------------------------


*(Venezuela uses electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE--as opposed to a 'TRADE SECRET'--system--anyone may review the code by which the votes are tabulated--and they conduct a whopping 55% audit of the ballots to check for machine fraud--more than five times what experts whom I respect say is necessary (10%). Half the states in the U.S. do NO AUDIT AT ALL; the other half do a miserably inadequate 1% audit, with a 'TRADE SECRET' system that is now virtually monopolized by ONE rightwing corporation--ES&S, which just bought out Diebold. Venezuela also has other "best practices" rules, such as a ban on political ads in the weeks before an election (to prevent vicious, last-minute "hit" pieces, such as we have here), and the government welcomes all the major international election monitoring groups to crawl all over the country during elections. They have all certified Venezuela's elections as honest and aboveboard. Venezuela also fosters very high voter turnouts and maximum citizen participation.)
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-10 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good news
Children not murdered in the out of control Chavez crime
culture can learn classical music!
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. the "out of control Chavez crime culture"?
You're not serious, right?

(just making fun of the anti-Chavez whackos, right)
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. well,
I am actually open minded, but everything I read tells me that crime is out of control in VZ over the last 5 years. If you correct me I will gladly repent.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. As we have learned from our own police department there are various ways of reporting crime rates,
and it's ALL subjective. Political, often highly manipulated. It can go any direction at all.

Retired Officers Raise Questions on Crime Data
By WILLIAM K. RASHBAUM
Published: February 6, 2010

More than a hundred retired New York Police Department captains and higher-ranking officers said in a survey that the intense pressure to produce annual crime reductions led some supervisors and precinct commanders to manipulate crime statistics, according to two criminologists studying the department.

The retired members of the force reported that they were aware over the years of instances of “ethically inappropriate” changes to complaints of crimes in the seven categories measured by the department’s signature CompStat program, according to a summary of the results of the survey and interviews with the researchers who conducted it.

The totals for those seven so-called major index crimes are provided to the F.B.I., whose reports on crime trends have been used by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and his predecessor, Rudolph W. Giuliani, to favorably compare New York to other cities and to portray it as a profoundly safer place, an assessment that the summary does not contradict.

In interviews with the criminologists, other retired senior officers cited examples of what the researchers believe was a periodic practice among some precinct commanders and supervisors: checking eBay, other Web sites, catalogs or other sources to find prices for items that had been reported stolen that were lower than the value provided by the crime victim. They would then use the lower values to reduce reported grand larcenies — felony thefts valued at more than $1,000, which are recorded as index crimes under CompStat — to misdemeanors, which are not, the researchers said.

Others also said that precinct commanders or aides they dispatched sometimes went to crime scenes to persuade victims not to file complaints or to urge them to change their accounts in ways that could result in the downgrading of offenses to lesser crimes, the researchers said.

“Those people in the CompStat era felt enormous pressure to downgrade index crime, which determines the crime rate, and at the same time they felt less pressure to maintain the integrity of the crime statistics,” said John A. Eterno, one of the researchers and a retired New York City police captain.

His colleague, Eli B. Silverman, added, “As one person said, the system provides an incentive for pushing the envelope.”

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/nyregion/07crime.html

~~~~~

NY crime statistics doctored by police: survey
Sun, 07 Feb 2010 13:54:21 GMT

A controversial report reveals that high-ranking officers at the New York Police Department (NYPD) have consistently manipulated crime statistics in a bid to show the city as safe and secure.

According to two criminologists, who recently launched a probe into the department, the intense pressure to secure annual crime reductions prompted NYPD bosses to make "ethically inappropriate" changes to complaints of crimes.

Both New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and his predecessor, Rudolph W. Giuliani, have used the manipulated data to portray New York as much safer than other cities in the US, reportedThe New York Times on Sunday.

More:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=118104§ionid=3510203


~~~~~

Manipulating crime statistics

The annual ritual has hit us again - the preliminary figures of the national crime statistics, published each year by the FBI, in a report called Crime in the United States: Uniform Crime Reports. On May 8, this report made the headlines in every major newspaper around the country, informing us that "Serious crime down again: 7% dip in'99" (USA Today) and "U.S. Crime Falls, 8th Year in a Row" (LA Times).

~snip~
One immediate problem is that these "index crimes" are the ones that are reported periodically in the press and quoted constantly by public officials. The problem is that when they are reported the words "serious crimes" are usually used (as in the recent headlines), instead of simply "index crimes." There are many problems with this, not the least of which is the fact that many offenses included under the "Part II" grouping are at least as serious as many in the "index crime" grouping; with some far more serious, such as fraud and embezzlement (the monetary value of these crimes dwarf index property crimes), and kidnapping (included in a catch-all category called "all other offenses"). Furthermore, the index crimes lump together murder and shoplifting (the latter is included within the largest single category of index crimes, larceny-theft) - in other words, "serious crimes" include both murder and shoplifting!

The main problem is that the data reported in this annual report are among the most unreliable of all social data. They often become mired in politics and bureaucratic manipulation to put forward a positive image about the criminal justice system's response to crime. In fact, in recent years many police departments have been caught "cooking the books" concerning their official crime statistics. Some police administrators may knowingly falsify crime reports by undervaluing the cost of stolen goods, or report a "larceny from a person" that was an ordinary pick pocketing as a "robbery" (or vice versa), or even exaggerate the number of "gangs," and "gang members” in order to get federal funding to create or increase the size of a "gang unit." Scandals in several police departments in such cities as Philadelphia, Boca Raton, Florida, Atlanta and Buffalo, New York have been reported recently. During 1998 police departments in these cities were accused of falsely reporting crime statistics, resulting in resignations and demotions of high-ranking police officials. In one case, a police captain in Boca Raton downgraded property crimes like burglary to less serious misdemeanors crimes like vandalism and trespassing, resulting in a reduction of that city's felony rate by 11 percent. In one example, he reclassified as "vandalism" a case where a burglar stole $5,000 in jewelry and did more than $25,000 in damage. Philadelphia's problem was so bad that they had to withdraw their crime figures from the FBI report for 1996, 1997 and the first half of 1998. (Crime figures from entire states have had to be eliminated from the annual FBI report in recent years).

More:
http://www.sheldensays.com/manipulating_crime_statistics.htm

~~~~~

We know from our own ability to reason how the crime states will be reported by police chiefs who hate the leader.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Miami has manipulated crime statistics, as well:
John Timoney, America’s Worst Cop
He has spent 138 days on the road in just a few years on the job. Who’s minding the Miami Police Department?
By Tamara Lush
published: September 20, 2007

~snip~
Rather than attending late-night parties or traveling around the country, fighting crime likely should have been the chief's focus. The number of violent deaths in the city increased from 56 in 2005 to a jaw-dropping 79 in 2006. Timoney acknowledged some rise in killings but claimed overall crime was down. He told a USA Today reporter that downtown was "safe." But no one really knows how safe. The city's police union claims Timoney "cooked the books" on crime. Some officers contend reports were changed or misclassified — a burglary into an information report or a robbery downgraded to a theft, for instance. Timoney said it would take hundreds of people "conspiring" to change the stats, yet he did call for a Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigation into the allegations.

More:
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/content/printVersion/726678

~~~~~

44% VIOLENT CRIME HIGHER ….LIES AGAIN!! Manipulating stats R.US Fabian/ Labour- 2,896 Daily that’s UP !!
April 25, 2010

Violent assaults risen by 21,000, A&E figures showThe devastating review comes despite repeated claims by the Government that violent crime has come down substantially since it took power.

It is the first time such a trend in police recorded crime can be made because a change was made in counting rules in 2002 which ministers have always insisted meant figures before that date were not, therefore, comparable.

Instead, they have always used a separate the separate British Crime Survey which suggests violence has dropped by more than 40 per cent since 1998.

The Tories, who requested the new research, said the findings make a mockery of such claims and reinforce the public’s fear that violence is in fact rising.

Statiticians in the Commons Library have used a previous Home Office estimate on the effect of the change in counting rules to estimate the impact on previous figures, had those rules been in place then.

Just last week, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, said violent crime had dropped by 1.5 million offences under Labour before attempting to blame a growing fear of crime on the Tories for “ramping up” public panic.

One criminologist accused the Government of “scheming and manipulation” who knew it was in their interests to avoid historical comparisons.

The figures will also be a boost for the Conservatives who were accused by the head of the Statistics Authority of damaging public trust with their use of statistics on violent crime.

More:
http://centurean2.wordpress.com/2010/04/25/44-violent-crime-higher-lies-again-manipulating-stats-r-us-fabian-labour-2896-daily-thats-up/

:eyes:

~~~~~

KC Police Records Need Looking Into

~snip~
As historian and KCTribune columnist William Worley has pointed out, crime statistics can be manipulated. That should not come as a shock to anyone familiar with Kansas City history. Tom Pendergast used to proclaim that “Kansas City is a clean, well-ordered town.” Of course, Pendergast controlled much of the way in which it was ordered.

Worley pointed out that, more recently, in the 1950s; a Kansas City police chief apparently presided over a department that manipulated crime statistics, especially those covering burglary and larceny, in order to make the crime situation in Kansas City appear better or worse than in other cities.

If he was trying to increase the police department’s budget through the state-appointed Board of Police Commissioner’s, Chief Bernard Brannon was accused of allowing all reports of burglaries and robberies to flow freely through the department’s main record department. On other occasions when it was more politic to demonstrate department efficiency, such as after receiving a funding increase, there was strong evidence that the reports of burglaries and robberies were often filed away and never placed in the central record keeping system.

More:
http://kctribune.com/article/Metro_OpEd/Tom_Bogdon/KC_Police_Records_Need_Looking_Into/18518
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Homicide statistics in Venezuela are not issued by the govt anymore
They are estimated by civil associations, journalists, chavista, non chavista or independent. Last year, they counted 14,000 to 16,000 bodies in the mortuaries of people who were killed by weapons + 2,000 to 3,000 killed by the police.

We are 29 to 30 million people living in Venezuela. If interested, do the calculation, get the rate of violent deaths per 100,000 habs. and compare it to other countries in the world.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. I am not sure what your point is here
Are you saying that the crime rate in Venezuela is bullshit? If that is the case then I say it is easy for you to say who don't live there and I have to assume that you just want to rationalize and defend the infallibility of the government. The violence is not something new but it is a very real and very serious issue for those who live in Venezuela.

Given my own experience with Rio de Janeiro, where we need to bring some cash with us at all times just in case we get mugged (you know, you might get shot if you have nothing to offer), I can see that there are big differences between Brazilian cities and American cities when it comes to security. And I tend to believe the people who live in Venezuela who post here since they have to deal with this problem.

I find it curious how people try to deny the fact that many cities in Latin America are plagued with violent crimes that keep citizens prisoners to their own homes. I have seen an American professor having the balls to compare the Carioca anxiety about crime to the exaggerated fear of violence and crime in US towns. Holy ignorance! And ignorance based on having to find equivalency with the US in order to understand Latin America.

Detroit, Miami, DC, etc. might have their serious issues with crime but the realities are very different.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yes, the orchestra recruits LIVING children. You're perceptive. n/t
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. The Venezuelan government has been fully financing the music schools for 33 years!
According to the poster here.

"Dudamel is a product not just of "El Sistema" (which was founded decades ago) but also he is a product of the Bolivarian Revolution which put Hugo Chavez into office"

"... the COLLECTIVE nature of the education that Dudamel received, and certainly the SOCIALIST government which paid his way"


But readers in this forum, don't be fooled by this usual type of propaganda. The constant attempts to link any positive event happening in Venezuela with the person of Chavez are very revealing and obvious to those of us who actually live in Venezuela.

The truth is:
When Chavez reached power, Dudamel was already an 18 year old rising star conductor and the director of the National Youth Orchestra of Venezuela.


The man who should receive the real credit for all this program is called José Antonio Abreu, its founder and director for the last 35 years. Unfortunately, the OP doesn't even mention him.

For those of you interested in this phenomenon in a genuine non political way, you should get the excellent documentary "Tocar y Luchar" (To play and to fight in English)
http://fesnojiv.gob.ve/en/to-play-and-to-fight.html

Some information on El Sistema:
http://www.fesnojiv.gob.ve/en/history.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Sistema

On Dudamel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavo_Dudamel
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. yeah, i remember hearing about this years ago. Sounds like a great program
public schools in the US are funded by local taxes here. Federal assistance is available too. Some schools are terrible, some are excellent.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Yes, I entered el sistema when it was starting in the late 70's because my mother was/is a friend
Edited on Thu May-06-10 02:24 PM by ChangoLoa
of Abreu from their university years in the UCAB.

If it's totally true that el sistema has received a lot more money... not since Chavez govt started but since the oil price was multiplied by 5 in 2003-2008, it's such a manipulative lie to say that "the SOCIALIST government paid way" or that "Dudamel is a product of the Bolivarian Revolution"!

Considering Dudamel was already 18 and the director of the most important youth orchestra in Venezuela when Chavez reached power, it's also quite dumb since you just need to be a little awaken in life to understand that a great classical musician's story cannot possibly start when he's an adult
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. The gov't "fully funding" the music program prior to Chavez? What a sly lie that is!
Yes, Abreu got funding from prior governments, but NEVER AT THE LEVELS THAT THE CHAVEZ GOVERNMENT IS FUNDING IT. The Chavez government is wholly responsible for the music schools' incredible expansion to 400,000 students, creation of 200 youth orchestras, world travel and success, and ambitious new programs of further expansion including capital building projects. Your sly lie trying to attribute this to your rightwing compadres in previous Venezuelan governments is typical of Venezuela's rightwing oil elite, and typical of other distortions that you have perpetrated here at DU, trying to marginalize or outright deny the remarkable accomplishments of the Chavez government, including the elimination of illiteracy, doubling of high school and college enrollment, cutting poverty by half and extreme poverty by 70% and expansion of health care to include the poor majority. That is why Gustavo Dudamel uses the word "INCLUSIVE" at the end of the interview. The poor children at these music schools and their families were EXCLUDED from Venezuela's society and power structure and received little or no benefit from the oil revenues because of your rightwing pals' gross mismanagement and greed.

Governments prior to Chavez were GIVING the oil away to multinationals like Exxon Mobil, in a 10/90 split favoring the multinationals, and skimming off the top to enrich themselves, while utterly neglecting the poor majority of Venezuelans. The Chavez government changed all that, by tough negotiation on behalf of Venezuela and all of the Chavez government's NEW social programs, which now benefit from a 50/50 split of the profits and 60/40 government control of the projects, and they just signed eight companies, from as many countries, on Venezuela's terms, and last week signed China, to develop the Orinoco Belt. Now your lot want to get back in power to benefit from and loot these Chavista accomplishments, just like the rightwing minority here and their corporate puppetmasters, who completely looted the prosperity and huge government surpluses of the state of California, where I live ($10 billion state surplus outright stolen by the Bushwhacks at Enron) and of the U.S. federal government, which was ravaged by the Bush Junta, to enrich the rich! Now we are seeing our educational system decimated by the looting class--so similar to the looting class in Venezuela.

In addition to greed, looting, selfishness and utter contempt for the common good, Venezuela's rightwing oil elite shares yet another characteristic with the Bushwhacks: bald-faced lying.

-------------------------------

"On December 3 (2006), it is predicted, Hugo Chavez will comfortably win another term, thanks to his huge support among Venezuela's poor. That should secure the System's stability for the coming years....."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2006/nov/24/classicalmusicandopera

The current Chávez administration, best known in this country for its populist, vehemently anti-American tone, has been the most generous patron of the sistema so far, footing almost all of its $29 million annual operating budget and ponying up for additional capital projects."

--

"Abreu argues that the poor are entitled to not only Mozart and Beethoven but also to the best of art and architecture. He retained two of Venezuela’s most distinguished abstract artists to help decorate the center, which contains a beautiful wood-paneled 1,200-seat auditorium, a 400-seat chamber music hall (an afterthought of Abreu) and several acoustically pleasing recording spaces. After attending concerts of Dudamel with the Youth Orchestra at the Lucerne Festival in Switzerland, which is one of the poshest settings for music in the world, Abreu admired the granite entry floor of the concert hall. 'He went to the Ministry of Finance,' Antola says. 'He convinced them. There was not even enough granite in the country. They had to bring it back from Panama, where they had already sold it. He is like a serpent enchanter. You can’t resist.'

"And his ambition is unbounded. Within Venezuela, Abreu is determined to reach even further into society. Supported by the government, the sistema has started to introduce its music program into the public-school curriculum, aiming within five years to be in every school and to double its enrollment to 500,000 children. The organization is also pressing lower in the class structure, having introduced a pilot music-education program in three cities for the homeless children who subsist as scavengers in garbage dumps...

"In a stroke of auspicious timing, Dudamel’s precocious success has coincided with the sistema’s international advance. 'Gustavo is the visible face of what is coming behind,' Antola says. 'You needed some sort of emblem. People are discovering Gustavo and the sistema simultaneously.' In his words and his achievements, Dudamel is an unmatched spokesman for the sistema’s virtues. 'You feel a young sound and a young energy in the sistema,' he says. 'We are not looking at an individual goal, it is always collective. I am a product of the sistema, and in the future, I will be here, working for the next generations.'”


http://www.embavenez-us.org/_spanish/?pagina=Noticias%20culturales/Conductor%20of%20the%20people.php&titulo=Noticias%20culturales

--------------------------

Dudamel is the product of the COLLECTIVE goal of INCLUSION of the poor MAJORITY. He says so above, and has said so repeatedly. That is the SAME goal as that of the grass roots political movement that elected the Chavez government, successfully defended it against the U.S.-backed rightwing coup and has kept it in power with an honest, transparent election system and amazing grass roots organization. And the Chavez government has naturally dramatically expanded government support of this revolutionary music education program BECAUSE they share those goals--of inclusion, and of the collectively perceived and implemented common good!

Your effort to deny what Dudamel has plainly said, and what Abreu has plainly said, and what the facts plainly say, is pathetic.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I've seen Dudamel in a great interview on CBS. He most clearly is devoted
to reaching into the poorest areas in Venezuela to bring that music to the young future artists who have most likely never heard it in their lives until they get to school. He's 100% certain NOTHING separates the raw talent of the young poor from the privileged children, that it's there to be discovered.

Meanwhile the oligarchs remain certain the poor are there entirely to serve them, provide them with material goods, and food, and service, and education can't be wasted on them using their taxes. If God didn't want them to work for the wealthy he wouldn't have made them poor, as these filthy fools seem to think.

No matter how hard the oligarchs try to prevent people from improving their lives, it's going to happen. Wealth and privilege won't save them forever from learning what life has to teach THEM.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. It's very low to do what you're doing.
To put anybody you disagree with in the same basket and to suggest that this person is somehow a rightwinger paid by corporations.

If you were objective, you would understand that the only lie that was said here is to present Dudamel as a product of the Bolivarian Revolution when, in fact, he was a grown up and recognized musician when Chavez started ruling. I know the people who made el sistema work and I give them ALL the credit.

Like Dudamel, let's say "We are not looking at an individual goal, it is always collective. I am a product of the sistema, and in the future, I will be here, working for the next generations" and not "Dudamel is a product of the Chavez government". That's political recuperation and that's bullshit.

Venezuela is a bit more than Chavez and foreign chavistas tend to use anything positive they find in our country to give some cheap credit to Chavez. That sucks a lot!

Read a short history of el sistema in a link I provided earlier if interested (Venezuelan govt link, btw):
http://www.fesnojiv.gob.ve/en/history.html

And get the dvd Tocar y Luchar, it's an amazing documentary about el sistema.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. No, it's very low to do what *you* are doing
which is obviously to spin and distort in an effort to discredit Chavez and the Bolivarian revolution. Thank God for Peace Patriot coming here and taking the time to counter those efforts.

Well it is too late to reference my deleted post now, but I didn't "put anybody I disagree with in the same basket" (another comment of yours that is intellectually lazy at best). I simply wondered aloud where the anti-Chavez efforts were coming from. That is a far cry from claiming that every person I disagree with must be right-wing funded. Unfortunately, that kind of distortion is par for the course, isn't it.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I read your post. I was convinced of what you discussed long ago.
I saw similar behavior at the old CNN message board system in 2000 when it was clear the Cuban American National Foundation (ultra-right idiots) had "representatives" working on combatting people engaged in conversations on the internetS who believe differently about what life is and should be.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Abreu is the man we should give credit to and not Chavez
The subject is Dudamel and el Sistema. The OP discredits the creator and conducer of all this miracle, Abreu, by failing to mention him.

You can say that Chavez significantly increased the funding for el sistema or that this govt built some of its infrastructures, but to say that Dudamel is somehow "a product of the Bolivarian Revolution" is a total nonsense. Not even with the word "also" in the sentence. I remind you that the musician was already 18 and conducing the most prestigious national youth orchestra in the country when Chavez was elected. Dudamel cannot possibly be a product of a process that started at the end of his formation. It's a question of simple logic and culture, we're not talking about Jennifer Lopez...

The "products of the Revolution" (even if the expression is quite questionable) will be visible in 5-10 years.

Now, you come here rising suspicion and suggesting treacherous motivations for other posters like me in the cheapest way possible. Do you actually have something to say on the subject or are you just making a fool of yourself?
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. see my comment #23 (nt)
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. You said that Dudamel is a product of the Bolivarian Revolution which paid his way. That's NOT true
NOT AT ALL. Stop trying to make things look as you wished they looked. Especially with quotes that don't say what you say they say. Not even in the interview you picked from the Venezuelan Embassy does Dudamel say anything about his support to our current govt.


As for you mentioning my supposed "rightwing compadres" and "rightwing oil elite" identity, give me a break and try to control your agressive pulsions. I'll give you a clue: I'm a state university teacher, my salary is not even the half* of the average salary in your country and I've always been a leftist.
* Probably not even the half's half :)


Btw, you're kind of wrong about your oil money sharing numbers. The 90/10 and 50/50 numbers apply to 1/3 of our production and to the 33% value-added that's left for those companies after they pay the govt's royalties.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. convenient of you to leave out the word "also"
The one word you conveniently leave out of Peace Patriot's quote: "also"

The full quote that Peace Patriot wrote is: "Dudamel is a product not just of "El Sistema" (which was founded decades ago) but also he is a product of the Bolivarian Revolution which put Hugo Chavez into office"

As a teacher I hope you know what the word "also" means. Here let me explain it. "Also" means "in addition to" or "not only this, but includes something else too". It implies inclusiveness of two things. In this case inclusive of both El Sistema and the Bolivarian Revolution.

But no, you drop off the word "also" conveniently, in order to paint a picture as if Peace Patriot has written that only the Bolivarian Revolution has supported Dudamel. Then, in further insult to Peace Patriot, you complain that Peace Patriot is not saying true things!!

I will tell you something my friend, if you want to force your agenda on the rest of us, fine, it's obviously a free speech forum for the most part. But distorting what others have written in the interests of advancing that agenda - that is not fair and you will be called on it.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Same thing with or without "also"... Dudamel is not at all a product of Chavez govt.
The moon is yellow... ok

The moon is yellow and "also" square... not ok

Is "also" a magic word for witch-hunters high on off topic rants?

:hi: :dunce:
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Is the Chavez government supporting Dudamel or not? (nt)
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. That's not the question of my comment
Edited on Thu May-06-10 09:56 PM by ChangoLoa
The Chavez government is supporting el Sistema and significantly more than the previous gotvs. Note that it has always been almost totally funded by the government since the late 70's. Today, Dudamel has become such a star that we could say he's supporting el Sistema too and staying to develop the institution even further. As a part of it, he's been supported by the govt but I don't think Dudamel is a "product of the Revolution". Not even "also". Neither do Venezuelan chavistas nor the govt. It wouldn't cross their minds to pronounce such an obvious manipulation. It would sound childish.

Ganando indulgencia con escapulario ajeno, you understand that expression?
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. Yes. Dudamel is definately not a product of the Bolivarian revolution
and he is not terribly supportive so I heard ... but is appreciative of the extra funding that Chavez has given El Sistema.

Abreu deserves the credit.
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. I'm going to send you an ExxonMobil hat
:-)

You sure have it in for them.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-10 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. I recommended your thread, and one of these tools immediately cancelled it.
So I'm taking the time to mention it, anyway.

Recommended!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
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