WTF....I am not even sure how I would prove I am not an illegal alien!!!

Illegals have valid drivers licenses. Some under fake birth certificates but they have them.

I have a drivers license.

How does a cop prove I am legal vs the illegal?

Just another damn reason for cops to harass someone.

PAPERS PLEASE!!!!

I don't overeat, but I look like I do...

and I can talk about football...in fact, I'm itching to. None of my friends cares at all about sports, and the NFL draft is going on!

:evilgrin:

Talking about actual football would be a sign of being foreign, as Americans call it "soccer".

If we cannot be guaranteed not being arrested, we shouldn't risk going.

as well as California, New Mexico, Utah & Nevada

But then...you could be an illegal and just faking your inability to speak your native language.

:sarcasm:

This law is racist AND stupid beyond all belief. Those fuckers in AZ don't accept Obama's HI birth certificate which was exemplified by the Sec of State and the Gov of HI ~~ both Repukes. Yet, these are the same people who supposedly are gonna accept as legit papers from someone who is brown skinned and has a Hispanic accent that he/she is legally in the US???

Right, sure...I gotta bridge...

They came up with these two laws close in time! They'll just say the papers are faked.

It will cost them a lot of money, too - all that jail space, even if temporary, will be needed until the person can come up with their birth certificate and you can bet that they'll have technical requirements on those, too!

This law let's them do whatever they want to whoever they want.

I am a white person, and I have a driver's license, but if I'm driving
down the street and a cop stops me and asks me to prove my citizenship, I don't
know what I would have in my wallet that would demonstrate citizenship!

Conversely, let's say a Hispanic man, who was born in the US and has lived here
all of his life, is also stopped by the cops. He can show his driver's license, but
like me--what else would he have to show?

We're both illegal, I guess!

Or, like you said--someone who is here illegally--would have a valid driver's license. So,
technically, he's in the same boat as myself and the legal Hispanic.

Who carries "proof of citizenship" and what exactly do those papers look like? Am I
supposed to carry my birth certificate?

Have to prove that the person is in the country illegally... usually simple: does the person have a visa?

We've had numerous cases here where "Jose Lopez" sat in jail for weeks before they realized it wasn't the right "Jose Lopez". Then what? Jose Lopez doesn't have a visa, but this isn't the right Jose Lopez.

It's just a ridiculous law they'll never be able to straighten out.

If the Jose Lopez has a visa on him, or can show that he was issued a visa, he can disprove the government's case.

Immigration law is similar to any other law.

She was on a fulbright scholarship and there for an extended period (maybe a year or so?). She was required to visit the local police station in Marsberg to check in weekly - to report any changes in address, and make sure she was still where she said she'd be, doing what she was there to do.

I went with her, it wasn't a big deal, nor did it strike me as odd that as a foreigner attending school there, that some authority might want to keep tabs on the movements of non-citizens who were being allowed to have extended stays in their country. And I am moderately anti-authority, but it was just common sense. She brought in her passport, and a few other documents related to her schooling and living situation, and was out in 5 minutes.

The same people who would comply with that are the same people who would leave when they are no longer legal.

This country is so big - people who don't comply with that requirement would just be too hard to find. That's why we have so many illegal aliens. It's just hard to enforce this kind of law. It's almost self enforcing.

And here it is pretty much self enforcing, and a complete failure at that.

I am afraid that the solution to the future immigration path/amnesty to those already here dilemma is going to be ugly, at least the first stage. If from nothing else, then from the reaction by those on whichever side of the issue that don't get the resolution they want.

is already in place for "legal" immigrants in the USA. Green card holders have to report regularly, file taxes, and comply with other requirements to remain in the country.

The Arizona law, however, encompasses legal Hispanic immigrants, illegal Hispanic immigrants, and native-born Hispanic citizens. Anyone who "looks" like an illegal immigrant can be stopped and asked for proof of being in the country "legally." It is racial profiling, pure and simple.

when I showed horses, we had both green card people and illegal people. I finally realized that the families from Mexico that the barn owner had working and caring for the horses weren't here legally because whenever we'd go to Canada, they would stay back at the barn. Which initially made no sense to me, because they were excellent in their care of the animals, and went everywhere with us...except where they had to cross another border.

The South Africans came next, but all of them were in the pipeline officially for becoming citizens. It was just my experience at this one barn, but the workers from Mexico here illegally were far superior in their skills and willingness to work (and just plain nice people in general) than were the white families from South Africa, who were arrogant, talent-less lazy, mean shits. Periodically, some of the hispanics would go "missing" and work at other places when things got dicey. It seemed like the wrong people were getting the right to stay here, while the more deserving were on the run (yes, because of how they chose to come here illegally, but just saying what I noticed about the caliber of people from each group, in my admittedly very limited experience pool).

While our immigration policies and amnesty issues need to be resolved, what Arizona is doing has nothing to do with that. It is racial profiling, as far as I can tell from what I've read. I don't have an answer to the problem we have currently. I am the offsprng of someone who came here from Canada legally, applying for citizenship instead of just crossing over and living/working here, so I don't have an issue with requiring that people apply for such a thing.

But where we are right now is a much more complicated mess. And Arizona isn't addressing it at all, unless the hope was to force the issue federally by establishing such an arbitrary and capricious law.

that Arizona isn't addressing the "problem," at least not the real problem. The actual problems in Arizona are drugs, the ease with which almost anyone can obtain a gun, and most likely corruption at the highest levels of law enforcement (see Sheriff Joe).

Being a bright-red, rednecked, Republican state only breeds more hatred, racism, and bigotry. Having an African-American president has driven their "political representatives" absolutely around the bend, and their recently enacted legislation shows it: the "Birther Bill," and this latest racial-profiling anti-Hispanic bill.

From John McCain to Jan Brewer, and all of their Republican state legislators, Arizona has become a laughing stock to the world, and a giant wart of the ass of the United States of America.

that has been the case for many years.

innocent. What if Jose Lopez is a native-born American citizen when he is stopped for being Hispanic in public? What if Maria Lopez is a legal Green Card holder when stopped for being Hispanic while driving?

Racial profiling is un-Constitutional, and "reasonable suspicion" based solely on race is a return to the rednecked Jim Crow laws of the racist South. It is also highly reminiscent of Nazi Germany and their profiling of the Jews.

But only if you look Hispanic. That sounds an awful like racial profiling and racial discrimination.

SB 1070:

1. Allows police to arrest a person without a warrant if they have probably cause to believe the person has committed a public offense that makes him or her removeable from the U.S. (i.e., they look Hispanic or don't speak fluent English)

2. "Requires police" to determine a person's immigration status. (papers please) It also requires police officers, if they form a 'reasonable suspicion' that someone is an illegal immigrant, to determine the person's immigration status." ("if they have a resonable suspicion" means if they look Hispanic -- white and black people need not worry. Although, they can use this excuse to harrass black as well . . . Hey, you look like you're from Kenya. Papers!)

3. AZ Bill "Makes It Illegal For Anyone To Transport An Illegal Immigrant, Even A Family Member." (How do they determine if you knew that person was illegal? What if some pregnant woman walking down the street goes into labor and I offer to drive her to the hospital? If she later turns out to be illegal, do I get arrested? Should I have left her on the street?)

These people would rather you dumped her in the river. The whole thing is disgusting.

So EVERYONE has to carry a birth cert or a passport to go to Arizona.

that a Hispanic US citizen would not have (or need) a visa. Do you have one? How would you "prove" that you are not an "illegal alien?" Most of us don't carry our birth certificates, passports, and other "official" ID around, so how do we prove we are "legal?"

like you could be Hispanic, you'd better stay out of Arizona.

Arizona is having a special election in May to vote on a 1 cent sales tax to help with the budget crisis. I was all for it, but after what Brewer did yesterday, she can take her tax increase and shove it up her ass. The law she just signed will do so much harm to the Arizona economy, on top of our existing budget crisis, that a 1 cent tax increase isn't going to make a bit of different. I wanted that money to go to schools, but I'm sure that's the last thing she would do with it. She'll probably give it all to the Police Departments so they can hire more cops to arrest anyone who looks like they might be Hispanic. Don't think so. :mad:

I look like I'm nothern Italian or northern Spanish.

I have a hard time getting back into the U.S. if I travel abroad by myself. I'm female, and that is considered suspicious if I'm not traveling to visit friends or family.

If I were to go to Arizona, I would take my birth certificate. In fact, this law may be the push I need to get my passport renewed.

I doubt that this law will survive a Constitutional challenge and will have a very short life.

http://www.ksrevenue.org/dmvproof.htm

Go Jayhawks.

Some under fake birth certificates but they have them.

Nope. That would make the license invalid.

K&U

:kick:

Like that really stops anyone. It doesn't really prove anything. An illegal can look legal, and a legal can be suspect.

It's more effective than not checking at all.

There have been several attempts recently to change California law so that people in the country illegally are eligible for driver licenses.

reasoning, we all should have to show our ID cards whenever a government "official" asks to see it -- even if we are doing nothing suspicious, and no probable cause exists? Has a law been passed that requires all citizens to carry an ID card at all times, or risk being detained, or arrested? Has the right to protection from illegal search and seizure been repealed?

The return of Jim Crow laws, and racial profiling is not only un-Constitutional, but a step backward for our society. But then again, Arizona and other Red States have never shied away from showing the world their ineptness and stupidity born of racism and bigotry. This law, along with their racist "birther bill" legislation, will not pass a Constitutional legal test, and I suspect that they know that full well.

Surely everyone can see that?

You should read it before attempting to comment on it or to analyze its possible effects.

such as driving while Hispanic? Or, being Hispanic in public? How about loaning a friend $10.00 in public while being Hispanic? Maybe jogging in a white neighborhood while being Hispanic?

Reasonable suspicion? Yeah, right -- they used that line in Jim Crow Mississippi in the '60s. You can defend this rednecked legislation and the assholes who passed it all you want, but it remains a racist, un-Constitutional, law based on nothing more that bigotry, hate, and racial profiling.

The new law in Arizona empowers AZ law enforcement people with exactly the same powers the feds are using already.

empower law enforcement officials to apply "reasonable suspicion," or even "probable cause" standards based (even in part) on race or ethnicity. That has been proven time and again in courts across the land. ALL law enforcement officers have the "power" to detain someone based on either "reasonable suspicion," or "probable cause," as long as they apply it evenly, and without regard to race or ethnicity.

The Arizona law is both racist AND discriminatory, and attempting to lend it some sort of legitimacy is sad, bubba:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/racial-profiling/page.do?id=1106650

http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/racial-profiling

http://www.answers.com/topic/racial-profiling-2

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/24/ap/national/main6429203.shtmlhttp://feeds.cbsnews.com/~r/CBSNewsStory/~3/GilY0s7gqKU/main6429203.shtml

Jack Shit.

What if the person doesn't drive or write checks? When I was following the primaries in 2008, there was a lot of discussion about identification issues, and I remember one item was that there were several elderly nuns in Indiana who were having difficulty voting because they were nuns who lived a fairly cloistered life. These cloistered nuns never drove, wrote checks, or handled much money- the convent took care of their needs through a designated person who handled all of that. Some students may have little beyond their student id if they don't drive either, and certainly don't have many of the other papers on them or even back at the dorm or apartment, preferring to leave that with parents who keep them safe.


Some older people don't carry a lot of ID either if they've stopped driving, working, and prefer living on cash.

BTW, what about kids? Could they be stopped for being illegal-looking? Kids don't carry that much id either, and being kids, are prone to lose what they have or leave it at home with their parents. If a brown kid looks like they are playing hooky, the cops could round up some as truants and ask for papers from their parents-and if the parents don't really have any papers either....

How about we bet, $1000 to charity, that there are illegal aliens driving with a real kansas drivers license.

Wow, what dream world do you live in?

I don't want people who do that living in my country.

NC has sharpened up their act since 1999, but all I needed was my I-94W, my UK passport & birth certificate, Greensboro Library Card, record from the insurance company proving I was insured and a printout from the Social Security office stating what my social security number was. That got me a license.

Seriously. So I have a piece of paper in my possession. It doesn't really mean anything at all.

along with the scares regarding identify theft.

on the birth certificate. However you have to look your age as
stipulated on the BC, and the race has to match, and your accent
of speaking corroborates you have spent your childhood in US.

Also there is a continuous linkage with the school documents.

When my 15 year old daughter applied for a US Passport, all she
had was her birth certificate, school ID card & me to vouch for her.
The passport has photo and therefore a reliable document to prove you
are a citizen.

;-)

that this racist law permits the Arizona Gestapo to stop ALL Hispanics simply because they are Hispanic? That is the "reasonable suspicion" standard for rednecked assholes in Arizona? State motto: "If you're brown, get out of town."

Racial profiling based on the rednecked KKK mentality -- pure and simple.

that this racist law permits the Arizona Gestapo to stop ALL Hispanics simply because they are Hispanic? That is the "reasonable suspicion" standard for rednecked assholes in Arizona?

No, that's not correct. I was simply pointing out that the law doesn't give any special privileges to white people.

discriminatory, racist, "law" does give special privileges to anyone who is NOT Hispanic, and that is exactly what your earlier post affirmed.

This racist bill was introduced, and passed by Republican bigots, and was opposed by ALL elected Democratic state legislators, most church groups, the police chiefs association, Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon, and President Obama.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/23/20100423arizona-immigration-law-passed.html

...illegal immigration, they'd take it up in the federal court system by suing the federal government for not doing its job.

This situation is almost all media hype.

Or Indians?

Blacks could be immigrants from the Caribbean, that will be the excuse.

the reason for this piece-of-crap bill:

"According to the 2005-2007 American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau, White Americans made up 76.4% of Arizona's population; of which 59.6% were non-Hispanic whites."

{Snip}

"Arizona is projected to become a minority-majority state by the year 2015 if current population growth trends continue. In 2003, for the first time, there were slightly more births to Hispanics in the state than births to non-Hispanic whites. Since then, the gap has widened. In 2007, Hispanics accounted for 45% of all newborns whereas non- Hispanic whites accounted for 41% of all births. All of the other races accounted for 14% of births."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Arizona

Now it all begins to make sense...

Will he ever be asked to show documentation?

Born in South Africa, raised in Canada. Will Sheriff Joe and his crew be on the case?

And things should be busy at Diamondbacks games if these guys come to town:

Jason Bay
Ryan Dempster
George Kottaras
Matt Stairs
Russell Martin
Joey Votto
Rich Harden
Blake Hawksworth
Jeff Francis
Grant Balfour
Justin Huber
Damian Moss
Justin Morneau
Brad Thomas

Might someone make the case that the Antichrist is alive and well in Arizona and behind this bill?

who are attempting to defend and protect this obviously discriminatory, racial-profiling, obscene "law" just passed by the Republican-controlled Arizona legislature, and signed into law by its equally repulsive Republican Governor, a few questions:

1) How can a police officer justify "reasonable suspicion" of a person being a illegal alien just by looking at someone who is not in the act of committing a crime, or behaving suspiciously?

2) How can a police officer logically arrive at "reasonable suspicion" of someone being an illegal alien just by observing a family group made up of: a man who is a naturalized citizen, a youth who is a native-born citizen, a woman who is here on a Green Card, and a man who just crossed the border last evening in the company of a coyote?

3) How can Arizona police officers NOT be accused of racial-profiling unless they ask everyone of every race and ethnic origin they stop, for proof of citizenship?

4) Since the alleged half-million "illegal immigrants" in Arizona are believed to be Hispanic, then are White, Asian, and Black people automatically excluded from scrutiny under this new "law?" What would that be called?

5) Who, or which agency, will be the watchdog of the application of this racist "law" to make sure that the above scenarios do not take place? Sheriff Joe perhaps...?

Anyone who has difficulty seeing that this disgusting racist approach to the drug and crime problem in Arizona is neither workable, nor Constitutional, and does NOT address the core issues, must be afflicted with redneck-impaired vision.

She doesn't have anything to prove who she is and hasn't for a couple months. She has no driver's license now because of it, she lost her current passport in her last move, we can't find her SS card. I have a foreign birth certificate for her, but how does she even prove that's hers? There's no photo or even a foot print on it.

It's crazy to think that if she lived in AZ, she could be thrown in prison for that - for having her wallet stolen.

My memory of the event is not clear enough so I can't even swear an oath that I am born in the US.

I have to rely on the testimony of others who were there!!

xxx

Local law enforcement in Texas is often confused about whether or not they can require folks who "appear" to be from Mexico for a driver's license.