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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:03 AM
Original message
Two helicopters enter, One helicopter leaves?
Why on the most important mission of the Seals existence do they have a mechanical failure of 50% of the operations vehicles?

Are all our helicopters so poorly maintained?

That part of the story doesn't sound right.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. And they talk about waste in our government.
The military is still using old planes in spite of all the money we spend. Where does the money go?
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. If it was a Chinook
It's to be expected...good troop and cargo hauler, but often has mechanical problems...especially if it's the CH-46 version!
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. It was a blackhawk.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thunderdome! n-t
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. It is strange and I immediately thought about Carter administration's failed
attempt to rescue hostages from Iran.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. That's right - This was very odd....
I wonder how everyone escaped the chopper without injury....
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Carter's rescue attempt was sabatoged
by those that sell arms
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. oh really...
proof?
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Proof?
You know it's much more fun to throw out unproved accusations!
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Hostages released during Reagan's swearing in is all that I need
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. So in other words...
No proof. Thanks. I thought as much.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Arms for hostages isn't enough?
I thought as much.
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Has nothing to do
with the Helo crashes during Desert 1.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. When the CIA director dies on his way to testify
Asking for proof is a bit of an insult.
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. No, it's not
If you have proof, show it. If not, well...you know.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Thanks.
But all things considered I will continue to speculate, thank you very much. Enjoy your box.
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Speculate...
Another term for "make up stuff."

Have a good day!
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. I guess the Hearings on Iran Contra were people making up stuff?
BTW, I do not believe that there was any conspiracy involved with this current military OP. Are you a VET?
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Yeah, I am
And I don't recall ANY one at the IC hearing saying that Desert 1 was sabotaged by the US.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. ps Welcome to DU
Edited on Mon May-02-11 10:49 AM by Cetacea
Are you a vet?
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Why are you assuming it was poor maintenance?
I'll bet it had nothing to do with maintenance.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'll postulate that you don't know enough of the facts yet.
Our helicopters are very well maintained (I have a good buddy that does just that). All machines can break down, especially under extreme stress. When we hear all the details, we'll know what happened.
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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
53. That's what I'm suspecting.
The report I heard said mechanical failure. I have to think they didn't send in a faulty machine so there must be more to it.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
7. The choppers have been pretty busy for the last ten years
And flying low risks having all kinds of shit get into the intakes.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. And the power lines all over the place and the little guys with machine guns...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
13. Nice...
Nice try, trying to blame this in the Administration.

One of the choppers had a "hard landing" which rendered it incapable of continuing the mission. It was then destroyed by the operators to make sure that nothing that could be used fell into enemy hands.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. That makes much more sense. Welcome to DU. nt
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Thanks!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Welcome to DU.
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Thanks!
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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
56. I wasn't trying to blame the Administration.
Just noting that mechanical failure doesn't seem likely with such a high profile mission. I expect they would plan for redundancy to guarantee success.

The media report I heard said "mechanical failure". That makes it sound like incompetence.

But "hard landing" or "blades hit the wall" makes it sound like smart planning that they were covered for such difficulties.

Nice try.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. Small arms fire blasting all around.
Not terribly shocking that a waiting chopper might sustain damage.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
15. You can bet Navy Seals push helicopters to their breaking point during such a mission.
Just a guess.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. True that.
Have you seen any info on where the operation originated? How many miles away from compound?
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. Well, they were Navy seals...
Take that as a hint.

Although, who the fuck knows, maybe it was a land base.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
16. It probably has to do with defense contractors lobbying for the most expensive,...
newest, shiniest geegaws in the budget.

Extra parts and humps to install them just aren't sexy.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. In the Army, at least, they turned down an expensive shiny new helicopter...
in favor of blackhawks, which these helicopters were.

It's just that a mission like this pushes a helicopter to the extremes of it's operating capabilities, just like it does with the people involved.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
36. Aha.
So it wasn't "mechanical failure" after all.

Maybe I went with the OP's assumption because of my own limited experience with military helicopters

(One scrubbed takeoff because of mechanical failure, and one emergency landing because of another.)
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
19. Historically 5-7 hours between some unscheduled maintenance
was typical of the Blackhawk. That's probably improved in the past 15 years, but I don't know how much.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
22. ABC reported that the blades were damaged when it ran into
the wall. The visibility was low. It's amazing and a credit that none of the seals were hurt and all got out.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Thanks re: blade damage.
Hadn't heard that.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. cally....
i have apprecaited your posts and mod job since this broke.

thanks
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
54. IIRC, the Al Qaeda goons were also shooting RPGs at the choppers.
So it's likely that the blade damage happened when the pilot was trying to dodge an RPG.

I'll write that chopper off to enemy action. I'm glad the SEALs onboard were able to get off intact and complete the mission.
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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
57. Thanks, that's the detail I was looking for.
I couldn't imagine such an important mission being compromised by faulty equipment.

Glad it went as well as it did for our people.
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jdlh8894 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
23. 1st Chopper made hard landing w/all team aboard
Edited on Mon May-02-11 10:14 AM by jdlh8894
2nd chopper landed empty to evac team
1st chopper destroyed - on purpose

No maintaince problem.Planned operation.
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KathyVet Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Someone will still see a chance to find fault
Edited on Mon May-02-11 10:14 AM by KathyVet
I guess I'm gettin used to it.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. TV mock-up is definitely not showing that the 2nd chopper was empty. nt
Also - it was the 2nd chopper that landed hard and was subsequently destroyed. They had not planned to "land" either chopper.
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jdlh8894 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. TV "Mock Up" ?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Why don't you tune into MSNBC.
It might be helpful but it will take away some of your fun.

those damn facts...
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jdlh8894 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Facts from MSNBC ? Please,spare me!
Did they get their "mock up" from the Flight crew or the Pentagon?
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jp11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
32. one chopper made a hard landing the other set down, and a third was brought in to
get the body and I believe remaining soldiers.
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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
58. Thanks,
That makes more sense than the original report I heard that said "mechanical failure'.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
33. Shit happens. They're complicated pieces of equipment.
Look, I'm as cynical as they come. I also thought, WTF. But I assume that's is why part of why there were TWO helicopters, not one. There was a back-up.

I'm not willing to shit on this operation, as much as it all makes me wonder. Let's let America wallow in some good news for a change.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. There were three helicopters. nt
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kick-ass-bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Exactly. There are going to be backups.
No way they go in with just enough room to carry the squad +1 to get back out. There was probably another helicopter or 2 a few miles away.
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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
61. I also think it is good news.
And it makes sense that there was a backup or two even.

What didn't make sense was the original report of "mechanical failure".

More recent information makes more sense. The blades hit the wall, that is much more likely than "mechanical failure."

I know the people who do these missions wouldn't tolerate mechanical failure.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
47. I'm betting the staging area for the operation wasn't too far away.
Maybe the third chopper was a gunship flying cover.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
55. I heard a progressive radio DJ talking about how they intentionally destroyed one
so as not to leave behind important equipment/information. :shrug:
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. They did that in Mogadishu with the crashed choppers as well.
I think it's standard practice when a chopper crashes. They throw an incendiary bomb inside to cook all of the equipment.
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IrishBuckeye Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
60. Need noise to let people know they were there there
so it jives with the story. ;-)
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