This morning the woman in the car next to me turned around and slapped her child so hard his head

hit the window. A little kid in a car seat. I yelled and waved until she looked up and saw me--and she gave me a dirty look. I yelled at her "KNOCK IT OFF!" (She was still leaning over the seat screaming at the kid). When she realized I had seen her she gave me a look like, "What?".

And then I picked up my phone and showed it to her. This look crossed over her face and suddenly she was real sorry... she starts mouthing "NO, NO" and waving her hands at me. I called the cops and reported her.

People!! What is going on these days? I'm a teacher and a mandatory reporter for abuse and on average, per year, I make one phone call. This school year I've made ELEVEN calls about three different kids. (In December on a 27 degree day with snow coming down I was in the grocery store parking lot and a woman came walking up the street with a 3 year old, on a leash, in short pants and a t-shirt. The kid was practically blue).

Something bad is happening in my part of the country. My fear is that all these social services cuts are showing up in neglect and abuse of our most vulnerable people. Nobody is watching out for them!

My stomach knots up when I think of this poor little kid from this morning. I hope the police caught up with them fast.

I'm just going to say you did a very good thing. Thank you on behalf of whatever portion of humanity I can arguably represent. Thank you very much.

PB

But appreciated. I'm feeling kinda lowly about the whole thing. Poor kid.

Good for you, and I feel for that little kid.

I hope the cops caught up with her fast too...

:(

if she was willing to do that in public... :0(

She was in the car.... didn't think she was in public. She's a moron.

little kid in the back of car in the lumber yard parking lot. Not much the cops could do, but they at least stopped the guy and questioned him. Maybe fewer beatings in public after that.

The police might have opened a case with social services? We can hope, at least.

him. Most children grow up thinking they are to blame for the actions of their parents. Someone stepping in to say different has an impact on the child, whether it shows or not.

It's important to the child to see another adult stand up for him/her and say that the abuse is not OK.

They're probably not getting that in their own families.

And given the "not my problem" attitude of most of our society, they aren't getting it anywhere else.

While a teacher or pastor may report what they see, they don't do anything to reassure the child that he or she is an OK and worthwhile child.

I don't often talk about my own experience because of the ridiculing crowd here, but I will tell you that I suffered from neglect most of my childhood. Those who say that neglect and verbal abuse is not as damaging as physical abuse know not of what they speak. It leaves a child feeling more worthless even than physical abuse does.

After I had grown and left home, and in fact, had my own child, I found out that two neighbors had gone to my dad to try to get him to see how badly he was treating me, and the effect it was having on me. I was stunned. That revelation has made a lot of difference to me. It *wasn't* "in my head", and it wasn't "feeling sorry for myself" or any of the other crap that people lay on a child to try to shame that child out of feeling bad or angry or just FEELING.

I wish that I had known that when I was a child. I wish one of those women had said something to me about it. It would have made a HUGE difference too me.

At different times I have seen parents being harsh, belittling and discounting to a child in a store, etc. I speak up to the parent not because I think it will change their behavior... but because I want the child to overhear me saying it is NOT OK.

That is something we can all do. And if a child hears that a few times, it will change how he or she views himself or herself. I guarantee that. It will.

I'm a substitute school nurse. I've been all over my school district, including the poorest schools. The neglect is bad enough, but the abuse cases are frightening.

but three kids in one year is a lot. I've also called two social workers for borderline stuff and had a couple of stern talks with parents. But the support from social services seems to have really dropped.

I know it doesn't feel good to make that move... I also reported once.

PLUS, I have absolutely NO confidence in the welfare units that respond to these things. :( DUer mtnleo2 has written about these things, and it is really disgusting.

However, it can't be ignored. Also, the yelling about it gave the child the message that it was seen, and that somebody knows what was done was WRONG. Abuse like this makes kids feel like they are not OK... like it is their fault.

Many years ago, Hawai`i instituted a law that required all homes with new babies have a home visit. That alone has dramatically reduced the incidence of abuse.

Someday, maybe we will all take this seriously enough to do what this country needs for its children.

Thank you. :hug:

This whole year I've been fighting with social workers, fighting with the police to follow up, fighting with the cafeteria to provide better food...so many fights just to take care of a kid the right way.

teeny bit of justice.

Thank you for fighting, and just know that others are also engaged in the same battles, and we know what the endless shit feels like. Some of us are ready to throw in the towel.

Again, thanks. :hug:

I most definitely am not!

The DUer I am referring to also is not... has been fighting that system herself. May have some insights for you.

for the most part I have had very good interactions with social services...but they are strapped and seem to be waiting for easy cases or such blatant neglect/abuse that they can no longer look the other way.

In Dec. I threatened an uppity up in social services I was about to go to the media on another case--they finally jumped.

Although, what she has to report would curl your hair.

There is another DUer who would have absolutely NOTHING good to say about the whole "family services" thing.

Its very sad, and leaves one wondering what to do. Abuse like you witnessed cannot be tolerated, and yet......

Did you know.... kids in foster homes are abused 3 times as much as kids left in their home??

It is just.....:shrug:

:cry:

This should be investigated... this is just WRONG!

I can't remember who, but a DUer posted a few days ago about... I think it was Maine....a county there has instituted new policies about keeping children in their homes.

Wish I could link you to it. Damn! I didn't bookmark it.

Did you get what I said about Hawai`i? I hope you will research that.

This is really terrible for these children!

http://new.bangordailynews.com/2011/04/22/politics/finding-hope-for-washington-county%E2%80%99s-lost-children/

Hope this helps

Cat in Seattle

I actually only have one student who still lives with her family. The rest are wards of the state. :0(

But, a single mom can't work and raise a special needs kid with big medical issues. I ran a meeting for a family last week and the mom summed it up very clearly. The state allows her four hours of respite care a week. Just enough time to get to the pharmacy to pick up pills and go grocery shopping. Her husband works two fulltime jobs.

Poor mom. I thought she was going to cry the entire meeting...but she was freaking out--scared she would run out of time before she could get to the grocery store.

"Think of the children."

Indeed.

:cry:

were also policy when Howard Dean was governor in Vermont (don't know if they were continued). He often cited the practice in his speeches. He said the incidence of abuse dropped 60% after the policy was enacted. He was very proud, rightly so, of that achievement.

(I think it was 60%, the number was high but it was almost 8 years ago too)

interested in PREVENTION than in castigating and prosecuting mothers.

But, I am eternally dumbfounded by many of today's attitudes. We have indeed all gone to the right.

our government will pay foster parents (and they should) to raise other peoples children. Yet, the same government will not pay the impoverished (if that is the cause) biological parents to raise their children. These children have free insurance and services that were never available to them (or their parents) in their biological homes.

MONEY is in foster care, and even more money in adopting out these children.

It is a CORPORATE BUSINESS.

Children's lives.

that a couple of my students who are 100% potty trained wear diapers...and their foster family really pushes a bathrooming schedule. I wondered why until someone pointed out to me...foster families get more money if the kid is in a diaper....(special ed young adults, at least)

This one example should show you that Cat knows what she is talking about, and that what she is saying WILL ruffle some feathers, but We, The People NEED to know these things about how this system is being implemented.

Thanks... this one little vignette you posted speaks volumes. :(

It makes children a commodity and criminalizes poverty.
:wtf:

mntleo2 is a real hero in this whole fight. I stand back in awe at her determined advocacy in the face of resistance, force, and silence!

She is deserving of so much support!

You know what is the saddest about this? Most family advocates are conservatives because progressive are so far into their fluffy little progressive world they can't see the forest for the trees. When it comes to even uttering the words "child abuse" they begin writhing around in ecstasy and act as bad as any Tea Partier by refusing to see the truth.

Progressives are the ones out there swooning whenever anyone says "child sex abuse" and making laws that basically make every accused automatically guilty without Constitutional rights. Then they get all tied in a knot because Bradley Manning is being treated the same way because of the court precedence THEY have set.

If there is one stoooooopid thing I see about both sides is, "as long as it doesn't happen to me or mine, then it is the right thing to do". Progressives are just as bad especially when it comes to child abuse.

I have a former minister friend who lost his whole life because his daughter was mad at him as a teenager and accused him of molesting her. Later she retracted it, but it was too late by the time CPS came charging in. Now his daughter and ex-wife are beyond angry at what happened to them all AND he has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Thanks to a bunch of witch-hunting child savers who could not allow the whole thing to be solved as a teen angst thing but instead ran in to "fix" the problem and created a life long torture for all. This daughter is grown and now into raising conscience about parental alienation syndrome and family advocacy. We often curse the "progressives" who made it this way. They know I am a liberal, but this is one place we shake our heads and agree: DON'T GET ALL UPPITY WITH YOUR PRO CHOICE THING AND THEN PUT UR F-ING NOSE INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS WITH YOUR DUMMASS UNCONSTITUTIONAL "SOLUTIONS"!

Phew I think I needed to get that off my chest. Thanks Bobbie!

Love
Cat

Most definitions of allegations of maltreatment and neglect are also the conditions of poverty. Instead of allowing CPS to go in and raid the already paltry amounts of money for families in need, after also taking millions in Title IV already, they know that it costs far less to give this family aid. But they would rather spend 4 X more on themselves and foster care than to actually HELP the family.

What does this say about the direct and quite obvious hatred of the poor? Refuse them help and then take their kids to a "better" place where they are 5-7 X more likely to be abused. But hey, MS Middle Class Social Worker got a nice bonus for taking the kid besides the tenure, salary and perks she enjoys, so who cares how traumatized the kid is for the rest of their lives as long as I get mine, why I am just fine!


GGRRRRRRR!

Cat

That was actually almost the exact wording on a reply.

:cry: :nuke:

...for the most part it is not shown that targeting these low income kids results in anything "better" for them although many people assume that just because someone has a nice house and nice car somehow ripping a child from their birth family who is poor and placing them with this upper income family is automatically "better".

No it is not "better" and statistics consistently prove it is not so. When a study of over 700,000 alumni of foster care shows that 5 - 7 X more abuse occurred and that if their family were simply given support and services that costs far less and has a much greater chance of success, they would have faired better as noted in above conversation. THIS is "better" not looking down at your nose at those in poverty and automatically assuming they "get their jollies" off of hitting kids. Unfortunately adoptive and foster homes also "get LOTS of jollies" ~ much more money than a parent would get for assistance ~ while being 5-7 X morelikely to be starving, hitting, neglecting, unloving, and giving shoddy care to these taken children.

Most kids just want the abuse to stop. They are strongly attached to the parent. If the parent was given services, this has a far better chance of stopping the abuse (if any actually occurred) and result in this child growing up in a better place is known to be a fact and it works better.

Cat

but my problem has been the exact opposite. getting social services to take my student out and put them into foster care. I can't go into any details but my student was put through HELL and they kept putting the kid back into the house to be prostituted because of a lack of evidence/credibility to the students story. It took me a year and over 25 calls to get my student to a safe place and that only happened because I took the student to the emergency room myself and got a doctor on my side.

...they are not very adoptable and will not bring in the adoption bonuses like a little child does.

Don't worry about "getting into it with me" and I am sorry this sounds so cynical because to me, whether they are 2 or 17, they need our support and protection. Teens are so vulnerable and while they can have more "adult" problems they are just as much in need of our protection.

I am telling you that profit is the motive here. After a kid reaches the age of about 8, suddenly like nobody will adopt half grown dogs vs those cute little puppies, they aren't so cute anymore. I am *not* comparing humans to dogs ~ but when it comes to money it is the same to them ~ what is the most apt to sell and how much profit it will bring.

As a matter of fact your problem is exactly what demonstrates the situation I am trying to discuss.

IMO this is why you have to work so hard when a child the age you are trying to protect does not get the response that is so desperately needed. Also kids this age can TALK and tell the truth about what is happening in a way that cannot be mistaken and to put them into a foster home where they might get abused further is dangerous for CPS because the "secret" might get out that the place is worse, if that is imaginable and as disgusting as that may seem.

So don't worry I am not surprised and I am just as frustrated as you are about it because "abuse" is always in their eyes no matter what is actually happening because they are going on profit not protection as they are mandated to do. Older kids can be abused until the cows come home and the response is (YAWN), "I'll come by in two weeks and maybe we can talk about it ..."

I know, I know and it is so sad ... I am so glad you have been there for that child, there are no words. I wish I could be there for him too. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


Cat in Seattle

I learn so much from you. I hadn't thought of it this way, but of course this is what is happening.

Which reminds me.... I HATE those "you don't have to be a perfect parent to adopt" ads. They make it sound like anyone can be a parent no matter what, and that is just plain scary.

It makes me wonder how many people actually apply for a young teen, for nefarious purposes.

Really... I have become that cynical.

With you.... :cry:

i took care of my student...but it took a year of carefully noting every word said, every conversation with the student and the police and caseworkers. By the time they saw my report and my threat to go public...you better believe they jumped.

my supervisor told me I could lose my job and I told her I didn't care. I'd rather lose my job than have to think of this poor kid stuck in a life of misery.

feels good to win finally.

they have you for a teacher. :hug:

That may very well be true. Or it may be reported 3 times as much.

Of course, any abuse is unacceptable.

Here is information and studies done by the state of NY University of Michigan and the University of Washington with over 700,000 foster care alumni.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nccpr.org%2Freports%2F01SAFETY.pdf

It is not something made up ~ there are statistics and every single CPS worker knows them. Yet they have little trouble removing a child at the drop of a hat. Pretending they are "damned if they do and damned if they don't take kids" is not really their concern as they know they are immune even after having been proven in court to have lied. They take them because of money. As is in Title IV who distribute rewards for taken kids, and they get bonuses for this.

Cat in Seattle

You can read an account of what I am working on here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/13/883930/-Thanks-to-CPS,-Robin-Committed-Suicide-Last-Week-

Believe me, I am against child abuse. However, as someone who won my case in court where I was falsely accused myself, and from the much higher incidences of foster care abuse (5-7X more likely to receive further abuse and this is according to DSHS agencies own admission), and worst of all it is all about money. It is about needlessly taking children and refusing to give services and the caveats in Title IV which are... "the more kids you take, the more money you get", tethered with the unholy alliance with the immunity CPS workers have even after having proven to have lied in court.

In my state (WA) in 30 years after a FOIA request it was shown that not a single CPS worker, CASA, counselor, judge or anyone affiliated with false accusations had received so much as a slap on the wrist, so it is not true that they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't" take children. I might remind you that this is the state that falsely imprisoned dozens of innocent people for years and decimated hundreds of children's lies in the famous Wenatchee Sex ring (or the Wenatchee Witch Hunt), but CA (McMartin) and MA also had these witch hunts resulting in the destruction of entire communities and families ~ all proven to have been nothing but hysteria and revenge rampages. All of them have have paid nothing, nada for these irresponsible and expensive endeavors. As a matter of fact Martha Coakley, the woman who tried to replace Ted Kennedy, was involved in one such witch hunt in MA as mentioned above ~ and she is Attorney General in that state!

If there are cuts in social services, it is *not* in CPS, it is with services desperate families need that would stop most abuse. As a matter of fact, after receiving millions in Title IV funding, CPS goes in and additionally raid about 1/3 of the TANF funds as well as a significant portions of food stamps, housing and Medicaid money for themselves as well. They refuse to assist a family for most often less than 1/4 of the cost of actually helping the family (on the average of $8000 per month per child versus perhaps a TANF grant that would be less than $1000 including food stamps and medical).

We hear much more about the abusive parent and we assume that if the child is removed they will go to a "better" place than their homes. This is simply not true and I cannot say this enough times: A child is 5 - 7 X more likely to be further abused in foster care than if they had been left home with the family getting services. Worse, the 9th Circuit court in several court cases of falsely accused parents and relatives have shown DSHS themselves admit that 70% of their accusations are false, yet the taking of kids is increasing at alarming rates. And adoptive homes are not much better in success rates with kids, on the average.

Taking kids for money is a big business. We call it "legal kidnapping" meaning that children are being taken, the parents not given services, reunification is discouraged, and adoption occurs with rewards and bonuses for everyone BUT the birth parents or family members and this is because of the caveats: "the more kids you take, the more money you get..." Most often low income parents are targeted for what we call the "harvesting" of their children because they cannot defend themselves as vigorously as upper income families.

If CPS returns this child home they lose that money and any future funding for that child, so taking kids is profitable and to be honest with you, nobody gets help and the kid is often traumatized for life because of it.

Calling CPS should be in the most dire of cases ~ and if a child is being abused in foster care, this is something few people care about no matter what is happening to them. So it does not do much good except in the most severe of cases to call them because in most cases they do not improve a thing, indeed they often make it worse for the child.

Studies have shown that children who were allowed to remain in the home and the family given services is far more successful for the child, even within drug addicted and alcoholic homes. After being in foster care kids are much more likely to become addicts, become homeless, go to prison, drop out of school, become teen parents, and have emotional and medical problems as adults. By "services" this means, drug and alcohol treatment (with children in the treatment center with the parent, see The Rebecca Project where this works well), housing, medical and childcare assistance, parenting classes and groups, and anger management training.

Unfortunately CPS is becoming the "money maker" for DSHS agencies because of the cuts being made elsewhere. Because of the job insecurity for other departments that *might* leak to CPS, adoption and foster care money is still generously flowing, with bonuses given to CPS workers every time they take a child. This results in CPS "preferring" to spend the $8000 per month on themselves and their jobs than to spend it on the betterment of the child's environment.

By "CPS" I am also including family court, judges, defense lawyers, CASAs, AGs, foster care, adoption agencies, consultants (such as counselors), all dependent on the money and its caveats. So it benefits them to make sure "the more kids we take the more money we will make". I am sorry but these people pretend to take interest in children ~ when it cannot be genuine if they make a career out of destroying families by overlooking Constitutional rights and allowing lies by CPS workers who use formulas and fake science when they know the child is better off if they give services and try to keep the family together. Every single one of them KNOW this, this is not news to them. So it is about their own bank accounts,*not* the kid.

Nobody is saying child abuse does not exist nor that parents don't need help. But considering that in 70% of the case accusations are false, then one might ask about the other 30% which are considered "founded". If even half of these families were given assistance, perhaps that would hone this down to at the most 15% of children severely abused in their homes who are considered "hopeless" cases ~ and billions less in cost as well as the betterment of a child's chances at success in life.

At this time with what I know, I would have yelled as the OP person did. I would have shown my phone as a threat as to what could happen if they continued their hitting of this child. But I would not have called. To open the door to getting help, if I saw this kind of thing with a family member, friend or someone I could immediately talked to, I would have offered some sympathy to the parent because I believed they were under some enormous stress to have done this to this child and I would have said that to them.

I am not making excuses it is simply a fact that most parents deeply love their kids and "losing it" is most often because they have terrible and impossible situations in their lives leading to this. They are much more apt to not be defensive if they know you are trying to understand their predicament because they already know this is wrong. So to get them to the place of seeking help instead of becoming defensive and furthering their own denial, showing sympathy for them would be my first move. I would also give them some resources to seek help such as an inexpensive counseling service, DV resources (although that can be dangerous for the victim as well, because CPS will take kids from the victim and often do ~ and then give them to the abuser, I am not making this up), food banks, rental assistance, etc.

CPS will only make it worse for them and their child and so it should be a last resort, not a first one. CPS is 5-7 times more likely to put this child into an even higher chance for being further abused, and I can never forget this if I were to pick up the phone and accuse anyone of child abuse.

Hope this helps and I can give some links with stats and studies, if you want me to do that...

Cat in Seattle

story - CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocates) are volunteers, unpaid, unaffiliated people. They would not have a vested interest in removing children. I imagine the speak for reunification as often as for continued placement. I am a CASA and I am on the look out for inappropriate care in the foster home as well as by the parents during visits. I don't get paid for my time and due to budget cuts I don't get reimbursed for milage. My local office served 500 children in care with a paid staff of less than ten, even the office help are volunteers. Do you have info or experience otherwise??

I am sure you are sincere that you are trying to help, I am just saying that whether you know it or not, you are part of a nefarious and quite sick system that depends on the destruction of families for their own existence and funding.

In my county alone 1 CASA organization takes $5,000,000 a year for being "independent" even though they themselves admit that they go with CPS about 97% of the time. That is *not* being independent! On their national website they used to say, "Anyone accused of abuse is guilty ..." until it was pointed out to them that this was a gross violation of their so-called "independence" while fraudulently taking federal funds to stand in the place of a real attorney for the child who has no other legal advocacy. The CASA program should be abolished because every time they go into court there is a lawyer for the CASA WORKER and not the child. If the CASA were so "independent" and worthy of these millions then why is it that they always go along with CPS recommendations when they know for a fact these people regularly LIE to get MONEY? they know these case workers get adoption bonuses every time they take a child. And how is 97% support in reality advocating for CPS and not the kid? Not good statistics showing any independence at all.

In my case how "independent" is it when the CASA refused to listen to ANYONE but the CPS worker even though over a period of 4 years she saw I always told the truth and that half the time CPS went into court with lawyers and personnel not even knowing the name of the child? This CASA went into court applauding the placement of a baby with father and his partner who were crack cocaine users and dealers, even though she was told over and over by the man's partner's own mother as well as me that they were using and selling. The partner had two kids she would not even care for herself while swearing that they lived with her. the CASA worker was all atwitter with the idea that the father, who was the real parent would depend on this woman (after all we can't expect a MAN to take care of his own kid, can we) to do all the parenting for him. In reality this partner's mother was caring for her kids, and this CASA refused to believe that either until the grandmother went into court and had to testify against her own daughter as to the truth ~ two years later.

But heeeey, the CPS worker(who barely knew the kids' name) thought it was a good idea so ...everything is hunky dory with the CASA! This CASA went into court with her own attorney ever by her side defending her not the child and applauded the whole thing as if nothing had been told to her and to CPS. Two weeks later the parents are caught selling crack after swearing to everyone and the courts they were "clean and sober" and full time parents. She also lied about me without so much as a slap on the wrist after being proven to have lied with that attorney ever by her side protecting HER but to hell with the kid

CASA workers may be volunteers ~ and some get paid btw ~ but they are all just supplementing the corrupt system with their free work that allows CPS workers to not do their jobs, lie with impunity and enjoy absolute immunity depending on CASAs who will be their rubber stamps and go along with whatever they say or do ~ as I said in my county alone 97% of the time by their own admission.

Believe me that $5,000,000 goes somewhere ~ I suspect to their attorney's, their paid staff, and other "expenses" who will pass the kid along to adoption agencies where a family court judge often is a board member ~ and also collecting Title IV money. Remember those Title IV mandates, "the more kids you take the more you will make" and therefore it is in CASA's best interest to go along with CPS and any other "financially interested child savers" ~ who gives a crap about the kid as long as they reap more and more funding?

If you want to know if I am telling the truth have a nice chat with your DSHS state director, HHS in DC or your state budget office and the prepare to become an instant wonk because the numbers are obscure until you begin to connect the dots. I am not making this Title IV stuff up. Nor am I not making it up that they also go in and strip more money from TANF, Medicaid, food stamp and housing money ~ which your agency enjoys as well every time they send you to one of their conferences where perhaps <:http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432023,00.html|the mayor of the town appears in black face in a CASA fundraiser that shows the middle class ignorance and elitist thinking about the children for whom they are supposedly advocating >

Just sayin' ... http://nccpr.info/the-case-against-casa/

Cat in Seattle

heart-breaking risks that you take.

I know how hard it is to go up against a system that people think is just hunky-dory, and the snide remarks and vilification that can follow those actions.

These children are being used and hurt -- for life!-- by a system that is just like the corporations---money based. They don't know yet how lucky they are to have someone like you who is fighting FOR them.

:loveya:

that the repub gov. made a law that is trying to gut this type of system for the aged in Florida. I hope the same doesn't happen to your program.

wow...I can't read this this morning but it will be the first thing I do when I get home this evening!

As you can tell about this conversation, many people think CPS is saving children when they are not. CPS workers know the stats and the risk of placing kids in foster care and that they will most likely suffer more. They know that it is destroying the birth family. They know that giving services works far better than the taking of kids. Placing children should be a last resort not a first resort. But they also know it is job security to continue to decimate entire families than to help them by jerking kids out of their homes and placing them with strangers ~ because everybody makes money that way, while returning the child home means they lose money.

I have not even begun to talk about the unconstitutionality of what they all do in family court where a person is "guilty until proven innocent" instead of the other way around. Where merely pointing the finger means "you are automatically guilty" with any proof, or with the secret court proceedings that make it impossible for the accused to defend themselves (no access to case records, no way to prove without filming what a CPS said or did, no way of defending one's self because they are the automatic liars, never CPS and their minions). If savvy parents want to film any interactions with CPS workers, they are met with fake gasps of incredulous amazement (as if they would EVER lie or exaggerate) and not allowing such a thing ~ even though it is perfectly legal.

Worst of all, they refuse to conduct their trials in a real court of law (such as county courts) because they know they could never prove their accusations by using Constitutional Rights as real court procedures are mandated to do "Under the Color of Law". Family court is highly nepotistic where everybody knows everybody else and are "assuming" everyone is on the same page with their pretense of "saving children" when they all depend on Title IV money(even the "defense" lawyer who gains more if they lose than win and never have to show their success rates to be hired as one, we call them "public pretenders"), clear ABA ethics violations)

If people think this is "saving children" they are wrong. And this is setting court precedence in other courts and cases. People are wondering why Bradley Manning is being held without so much as a court case, well this is one reason why because family courts do this all the time to kids. Because the accused have few ways to defend themselves and CPS knows it, with few if any questions as to how they can do that. I could go on but suffice it to say it is a kangarro court procedure that actaully proves nothing and is dangerous for all Americans.

Thus my passion to speak up even though I know it will barely get heard because everyone is so gaga over child abuse when in fact it occurs far more often in the 'safe houses" they place these kids. Even though it foster care abuse is happening 5-7 X as much, you will seldom see any media report of foster care abuse, but it will be all over the front page whenever any parent does it.

Hope this helps

Cat

Were you given the opportunity to work with the authorities?

Parenting classes teach frustrated parents the skills they need to discipline their children without violence. I have been told by people who have taken them that they are a great help, a good experience.

I think that those classes, patient assistance to parents who are overworked and impatient is the answer.

But just one child bringing the anger he has learned at home into the public school classroom can deprive other children of their opportunity to learn. And one child raised by the whip or accustomed to anger and impatience at home can turn into a very vicious adult. Society does have a stake in how each child is raised, how each child is treated at home.

I can believe your feeling that the system is unfair. I have seen that too. But a lot of the problem is the attitude of parents when questioned about how they are treating their children.

Sadly, we activists have become used to this kind of smearing.

:cry:

Have you ever been in a Dependency court in any capacity, Bobbolink? Because I have. I am not smearing. I know what I am talking about. There is a lot of injustice in those courts, but there is also a lot of justice for children there. Parents whether in the thralls of that system or not should take advantage of any opportunity to get parenting classes. I've seen people benefit enormously from them and be grateful for the opportunity to learn nonviolent ways to discipline their children.

It takes a lot of gall to come here and assume an ADVOCATE needs parenting training.

REAL GALL.

So, no... you don't know what you are talking about.

I don't doubt that mtnleo2 had an unjust and traumatic experience, but that simply is not what happens in most cases. Although I don't have any evidence either to support or contest that 5x-7x abuse rate in foster care; I am 100% certain that a number like that is largely meaningless because no one knows how much abuse occurs in non-foster homes that is not reported. All that stat says to me for sure is that 5x-7x more abuse is reported in foster homes- which makes sense, because there are many, many more FP's, case workers, and other mandated reporters/concerned parties involved in the lives of those children and they are more likely to report what they see.

It is a fact that abuse happens to kids in foster care. A sad and disgusting fact. However, this happens in kids' own homes as well.

Also, there are many, many cases that are investigated by CPI's that are turned over to case managers and handled as in-home petitions. Clearly your experience has been contrary to this, but in general, CPI's and case managers DO NOT want kids coming into care. There are to few case managers work with them and their families and too few homes/beds/facilities for the kids. CPI's and case managers get paid poorly for a high stress job with ridiculously long hours as it is, and I assure you they are NOT benefiting financially from keeping kids in care.

There are, of course, incidents and instances in which experiences like yours occur. Your broad brushing of every agency and everyone involved with the child welfare system, however, is not only offensive, but obvious and ridiculous.

I'm sorry that you went through what you did. But presenting it as though that's the only way anything ever happens when the child welfare system is involved is simply a lie.

I'm glad you stood up for yourself and your child when you needed to. You clearly were/are committed to them. I wish that more of the parents involved with the child welfare system were the same way.

...I am talking about a SYSTEM, that is spread over every state as I say many times, {i]because of the Title IV funding and its mandates which every state has to abide by in order to get those millions in funding. I am sorry to yell her but I have said it over and over and they are "THE MORE KIDS YOU TAKE THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE".

I am not "broad brushing" something ALL states have to do in order to get this money. Taken BTW out of Social Security. The fact that that is not enough and they are going in and taking a freaking 1/3 of TANF, Food Stamp, Medicaid and housing funds after getting those Title IV millions in order to additionally pay themselves 4 X more than assisting the family is indicative of using the conditions of poverty as reasons to take and sell kids. And that the number of taken kids are growing by leaps and bounds have nothing to do with this mandate???? Give me a break!

My own state (WA DSHS director admits that this mandate is causing a nightmare for families because, not only do they LOSE money if they return kids home, they lose the next funding cycle's money as well. With the cuts coming from everywhere else and with the raids of funding for desperate families and then after refusing them assistance to go and and take kids so CPS can get that money for themselves is not "broad brushing". Also isn't it in the least bit scandalous to you that routinely spending literally 4 X more on themselves putting a child in foster care and refusing to give families services is worth at least ONE question as to why this is being done?

No it is not "broad brushing" to state the facts and the caveats that is leading to the destruction of families. What happened to me is happening all over the country. But them most of them are POOR families so who gives a damn about them, right? http://www.dailykos.com/comments/971611/41381717">Here are a few examples of what "better" conditions awaited children I have connected with within the past 6 months:

One last thing to add with this link above is that every single one of these kids reported and reported and reported their abuse and because they were being abused within adoptive or foster families, nobody listened, not one teacher, daycare worker, or any other adult and CPS refused to do a thing. But ALL of them say if they had told, even if it was a lie, about their birth parents these same things, CPS would have been all over it in a matter of minutes.

BTW all adoptees in these stories have reconnected with their birth families (except the one boy who lost his step dad but reconnected with him as soon as he turned 18) and found much greater happiness and peace in their own souls and say that being with their birth families would have made all the difference for them.

I cannot help but notice that almost all these tragic stories being told here are about parents. Hardly ever do you see the stories about foster and adoptive parents because like the poor, kids in these situations become instantly invisible to idiot adults full of hubris who believe that all children who were taken from birth parents are instantly "saved" ~ or you would see more of those stories.

Yeah right kids are being saved SO much by CPS ... :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

Cat in Seattle

taken into care.

What I'm objecting to is your claim that everyone involved in the system is there with the sole intent of taking kids from their families in order to profit from it financially, and what appears to me at least to be your implication that no one ever benefits from being involved with that system.

However, I don't suspect either of us is going to change the other's mind here. I wish you the best with your work.

I agree many of these people are well meaning. They have *no* idea (as did I) the massive corruption of a system gone bad and what was at the bottom of it, which IS money.

I know a lot of well meaning people who go to churches where their hard earned money is put into coffers that goes to their pastor's private jet. They think they are giving the money to God and they believe with all their hearts that "Jesus" is speaking to them every time the minister tells them to give, give, give whenever that basket is passed around ~ again and again.

If someone were to inform these well meaning people that there is credible information that their church is also supporting terrorism in Africa and that entire villages of people were slaughtered, that additionally their minister it taking it and using it for himself and just bought a $500,000,000 mansion instead of going to "the little babies" they want to help feed in some country or even our own, and that those Bibles he promised would be sent to the teen group they have is actually going to be used for additions to the glitzy wardrobe of his wife, oh and that in truth only 10% of the millions this church receives is all that this mission work is doing.

After being told what is going on, who is responsible for continuing this corruption of their faith after they get this information?

They can say "Well 10% is enough for me (while ignoring their own prophet's words) and continue to support this institution or they can then withdraw and refuse to support it. They can keep silent and not do anything.

While this person is not wholly responsible if they continue with this, they ARE responsible for its continence unless they step aside and do something about it, whatever little they can do.

If they continue to support the corruption and waste, then they have responsibility for the damage it is doing. They could work within to change it ~ but believe me the pastor in charge will knock them down because he believes HE "deserves" it even though he knows it is hurting the low income people from whom he takes. If this "rebellious" person were to tell everyopne in the church he knew what was gfoing on, he is doing right. If he were to get 500 of his 10,0000 congregation to stand outside the church every Sunday and give out information, this is a good beginning because they can't ignore 500 people. Maybe that will lead to positive change.

To me, people who know this information and continue to support it, ARE responsible for the damage it is doing in the same way. People that do not know the facts need to be told if I am a responsible citizen and have this information. What they do with it after that is their choice, but believe me they deserve to be judged if they ignore the information and continue to sup-port something they then KNOW is wrong.

This is what drives my passion and if people want to look the other way or make excuses for the way it is damaging many ~ well to me even ONE of those children is precious and to allow this damage is WRONG. After all ONE of them is someone I love dearly who is now suffering the consequences of this horrible System and she does not deserve it. The least I can do for her and for other children like her is speak up and tell what I know. I would expect the same out of any decent citizen who finds what I am telling them to be true, I cannot accept making any excuses for the little good it does.

So while I am sure you are right that well meaning people are not doing this for money, (I know some of them) they are perpetuating this corrupt, immoral system by making excuses for it and continuing to support it ~ and thus responsible for the damage no only to my loved one, but for every one of the thousands being hurt and even killed.

I hope this helps

Cat in Seattle

.

and nice people dealing with some pretty severe special needs.

Yes I have been in Dependency Court ~ that is IF I am allowed in as a family advocate, which in many cases I am not allowed. Because they run these courts in secret hiding their unconstitutional proceedings, nepotism and falsehoods, and is WHY these courts are secret with a "judge" who most likely sits on an adoption board somewhere (CA-CHING! "the more kids I take, the more money we make,
Thank YEW Title IV")!

If they were forced to operate in a REAL court with a REAL judge it would be a different story and these CPS workers know it. They fight that tooth and nail every time family advocates try to legislate it because they know their the dirty little secrets would come out to the public. They pretend that it "protects the child" when they know if cases get to Superior Court they then becomes public, and all they do is redact the kid's name and make it an initial. They don't want Dependency Court to be public, so how can anyone BUT a 97% rubber stamp CASA, who has all the say and belongs to their little cabal, get in that court? You KNOW that few others will enter if you have been in so many of them.

Shhhh! Don't tell anyone about what you saw or we will have to kill you (death threats have happened to family advocates one of them is a close friend of mine who had the NERVE to report ethics violations with proof).

Cat in Seattle

Most of the adoptive kids I know never saw hide nor hair of a CASA worker nor anyone after they were adopted. It is "nothing to see here, time to move along ..." So how do you know these judgments did one whit of good for the child? How many children have you visited after everything was said and done say ...after two years after being placed? If you have you are about the only one.

Cat in Seattle

...I have had plenty of formal training and experience about how to deal with children ~ and other adults. As a matter of fact I got many kudos for the work I did by abuse experts. The allegations against me were proven as boldface lies. And if you think I am some kind of "one person story" you are dead wrong. This destruction happens thousands of time in thousands of families every day because of money. Let me repeat that three times because it is fact, they destroy families and little kids because of money, money, money.

Will Rogers said said it best, "The most dangerous people in the world are people with a lot of book knowledge who confuse that with wisdom ..." He was pointing out that fools often possess the hubris that they "know" when in fact they are ignorant, which creates a blindness to those that see that is almost comical if it did not hurt so many. You will never convince people like that and no matter what you put before them, they won't believe it ~ especially if they can simply denigrate the person into looking like a fool in order to elevate themselves into the "wise one" when in fact they are the fools.

All I can say is what I am trying to tell you is what I have discovered and it is from credible sources ~ like the US Congress Ways and Means Committee, HHS in DC, my own DSHS director, policy and financial wonks my capitol financial judicial committees both at the state and federal levels, in senator's and Representative's offices, besides my own experience.

If information like that merits someone suggesting I take a parenting class because I am angry at the corruption and needless destruction of families most of whom are low income, I confess I am righteously angry all right and for good reason. Perhaps it should be pointed out that my "anger management" is me writing about what I have found. After all, "The pen is mightier than the sword" as is evident here with someone being so upset about the facts before them they are making suggestions that seem to be aimed at the messenger rather than allowing this disturbing information to sink in enough to ask a single question of the people who are participating in this grab for money and funding in lieu of the children they are mandated to protect.

Cat in Seattle

is YOUR problem.

That is the story of our WHOLE system.. make it a personal problem, and wipe out the evidence that it is a SOCIETAL problem.

I am very sorry that you are getting this directed at your personally! This is WRONG.

You should be getting the admiration and appreciation of all who call themselves "progressive".

You have mine, which you know.... and it is time for others to LISTEN.

:loveya:

Back in the 1970s my first "real" job was as a clerical worker--mail clerk, mostly--in the Nameless County Welfare Department. (Back then we still called it Welfare.) I was assigned to the Child Welfare division. Nameless is a county of moderate geographic size and at that time it was mostly suburban and rural in character and was moderately populated as well. Not urban. Mostly small towns. The Welfare Office was in the county seat.

I worked there for about a year.

During that year, there was upwards of 100% turnover among the Casework staff. (These were the 1970s analogs to today's CPS workers. Most of the Caseworkers (CWs) were social workers although we had a couple of nurses as well.)

Upwards of 100% turnover.

Why?

I'll never forget the afternoon a CW came back from a court session and broke down crying at her desk. She'd gone to court to try and remove a kid from a home where horrible physical abuse and neglect were continuing to occur, in spite of two previous appearances before the Family Court. The most recent precipitating incident had been when a teacher found an iron-shaped, blistering, weeping burn on the child's arm. The Family Court judges (there were three of them) were all white, male, late-middle-aged, Good Upright Christians who believed that the Best Place for a Child is Always With the Family.

This particular CW quit a few weeks later over a different incident with a different child when she recommended what was then called Supervisory Intervention (which had to be approved by the Family Court)--not removing the child from the family but monitoring the family and requiring the parents to take a parenting course and engage in some reporting practices. The Family Court refused the SI because it was "unwarranted government interference in the parents' privacy," and it was the last straw for that CW.

She hung on longer than most. While I was there one slot was filled twice over.

A month after I left, there was a story in the local newspaper about a child killed by abusive parents. It was the same child who had had the iron burn on her arm, who was left in the home.

I have always considered that Good Upright Christian Family Court judge morally guilty of negligent homicide.

What changed? When did it become so easy to yank kids away from their families that the balance of the abuse is on THAT side of the coin, rather than the side it was on when I worked for County Welfare in the 1970s?

And what is it going to take for us to find a happy medium and stick there?

I don't know the answer. I just grieve that we have to keep asking the question.

sadly,
Bright

...and then it becomes a witch hunt with rewards of money. Then kids become the state's chattel who are being sold like cattle ...

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Cat in Seattle

hard to sleep sometimes after hearing stories from other teachers and nurses.

lobbyists, and they cannot offer politicians lucrative careers when they leave office, so little will be done to protect them or promote their welfare in this country, where the almighty dollars determines what (and who) has value and what (and who) should be ignored and discarded.

Wish more people would report abuse when they see it. It's when we don't get involved that it continues.

I bet she even has a cell phone with the capability of taking pictures. And doesn't realize it can be used for that too.

I'm sure that if you gave enough details they will find her.

i was so shocked and trying to figure out how to get her to stop I didn't even think about my camera/phone.

When you called the police did they make any type of suggestion like that? I'm betting they didn't.

I would think it would be something they would include in their list of things to ask.

I had to call nine times on a student this year--and took copious notes which I sent to the head of the county and said I was going to the media with my notes....

EVERY single word written down, times, dates, names, etc. etc etc.... they jumped so fast my student was in foster care by that afternoon...but it took four months of calls to do it.

I walked right up to him and asked if there was a problem, if she was alright.

Both of them were embarrased, and she had the look of terror in her eyes as though it happens often...

Thanks for intervening...

I saw a pimp beating up a hooker in LA in 1990--if i close my eyes and think about it I can see the whole thing clear as day. But I didn't intervene... :0( I was in a car driving by... and I have felt bad about it ever since. So now I intervene too. I'd rather take that risk than live with the crappy feeling not helping leaves.

(I've also kept a baseball bat in my car ever since I saw that poor hooker...I vowed if I ever saw something like that again I was gonna help)

purse) no, the guys are usually freaked out by this apparently fearless woman walking right up to them and intervening, and, threatening me has absolutely no effect.

I have high praise for fearless women! (my mom was a navy pilot and my aunts are a DEA agent and an LA county Sheriff who worked in the LA county jail intake room...for men)

does not stand for any sort of abuse in my sphere.

:hi:

those kind of men seek out women that they think they can manhandle...a strong woman is probably quite intimidating...unfortunately, my fear is that sometimes it makes the abuse worse later...because they were embarrassed in public to be caught in their mess...

there will be someone like you.

Have you ever considered volunteering with Model Mugging? I am impressed with what they do, and think it should be available free for every woman who needs and wants it! The men who participate are awesome!

my mom works downtown a lot, later in the evening and it scares me. It is nice to know that people would help her if she needed it.

think twice before beating her child in public again.

buttocks, several years ago, for a young man in one of my classes in an extremely expensive private school, with largely upper-bracket dual professional parent clientele. We made sure that the kids took their meds and kept their butts in their seats long enough that we could move them along. That was the problem that day, the little guy could not sit down, so I asked the nurse to talk to him.

God Bless Our Rat Race!

...they have the means to defend themselves with good lawyers ~ and never have to take the services that they need like counseling, and other things that would help the child and them. It is the same with drug and alcoholic abuse, there is no difference in the classes with this, but as usual the poor gets the blame. I cannot tell you as an advocate for parents, how many times in upper income domestic violence abuse situations, the abuser is some powerful ...somebody...who will only punish the victim(s) further ~ with CPS' blessings.

Money is the name of the game with these people, they are starry eyed when they step into a nice home and ignore that the abused have not seen their own family for years because the abuser isolates them (as is the common pattern with abusers), not even allowing them to leave the home to go to the store without their escort. Women forced to give birth at home or with "friends" of the abuser because the abuser knows if any medical person sees the hidden bruises they will ask questions ~ or hide them. Their abuser will use the court system to turn the victim into the "crazy bitch" and then take the kids, all the resources ~ again with CPS blessings.

Money hides a lot of ugly things. One good thing about poverty and abuse is that at least you are not living the facade hiding hell that often is veiled in the exclusive cul-de-sac.

Cat in Seattle

You make the world a better place. I would have done the same thing.

It's not the same as someone who has made a choice, and are living their life. It's someone who is dependent upon another, and they're being mistreated.

Thanks for sharing this. I am grateful that you took interest enough to do something.

business."

I sure spend a lot of time doing social worker stuff at least....

Hopefully there will be another guardian angel around if it happens again. There was a story in our local news about a "father" (if you can call him that) who purposely broke his 5 week old child's leg because it wouldn't stop crying. He took that baby's leg & twisted it til it broke. How sickening is that! I'm normally a compassionate person but not when it comes to child abuse & animal abuse. I hope the SOB gets every bone in his body broken during the time he spends in jail or prison.

abuse here several years ago (starts like harry potter under the stairs, but goes into forced sexual activity and other things I won't mention here) the parents were charged with a couple of misdemeanors!! and I was told (by the da's office) that the reason the penalties are not stricter is because "people have different views of what constitutes child abuse".

I asked what the penalty would be for me if I were to arrange for the same to happen to the "parents"-- dead silence.

You gave them her license number?

rear ended some guy's car then he got mad and was trying to drag her out of the car right outside my house. I heard all the screaming and ran out there. Told the guy to leave her alone, of course he cussed me out but I had helped her get out and she ran into my house. We then called the police on the guy. Yeah her car hit his but I'll be damned if someone is beaten up in front of me.

if the woman is willing to do this in public, I shudder to think what she does behind closed doors.

One day when the teacher was out, a little girl in class told the other TA in class that her Mom had hit her in the face and it still hurt her. We both looked at her face and could see a bruise on her cheek and lower lip. I was not there when the girl told the other aide. She didn't know what to do. I told her to report it to Admin. and let them and Children's Services investigate it. Her duty was just to report it to higher authorities.

When the teacher (young and inexperienced) came back the next day, she was furious that the aide reported this. The Mom called her up on the phone screaming and the teacher took it out on the aide. The principal, school counselor, and me, told this aide she did nothing wrong, yet this teacher still continued to take it out on her.

It went through appropriate channels, and the mother was reprimanded to counseling. The point that I want to make is that when I worked in another state, it was MANDATED by the state, that all public school employees (even cafeteria workers) take 2 courses EVERY YEAR on Child Abuse, the Signs, and Procedures for Reporting it. It is not done in this state. It SHOULD be required in ALL STATES. If it had, it would have saved this Teacher's Assistant, and even the Teacher, a lot of grief, if they knew exactly what their duties and responsibilities were. Sorry, but ignorance should not be an excuse, especially not when it involves children's lives and well being.

Most states require that something like this be reported. And the principal should have told the teacher to zip her lip! There is no excuse for that.

Just saying.

We care. My partner has saved more than one kid's life by reporting abuse.
:grouphug:

authorities. Unfortunately, not much is usually done as we don't have a system of safety nets in place. Sometimes when child services takes a child from an abusive parent and places them in foster care, the care might be worse, or often the court system returns them to the abusive parent. We really need to do better for the most vulnerable among us.

...than if they had been left in the home and the family given services. My post above will tell you more ...

Cat in Seattle

and lit it on fire. They took the kid out of the house for two weeks then put him back. The kid was starving to death. I fed him every day.

Not sure it's the cuts in social services that's causing neglect, etc., as child and elder abuse has been going on for a real long time, but whatever...

Kudos to you for caring enough about that poor kid to report what you saw. I hope the police did catch up with her and they saw a red mark or bruise on him as proof of what she did.

Otherwise people like her could abuse at will. Thank you!

'Nuff said.

Many women have been "guilted" against having an abortion since the fundie anti-abortion nuts have garnered so much press.
The result.......UNWANTED CHILDREN WHO ARE FREQUENTLY ABUSED!!!!

It this woman was bold enough to do this in the car where she was easily seen, imagine what she does behind closed doors......

I'm a teacher, too, & the incidents of neglect & abuse have grown tremendously in our area in the last 3-4 years. Maybe it's the economy, or may be it's a generation of parents who never learned proper parenting, because they had no good role models, or they were spoiled & don't know how to sacrifice for another human being.....even their own kids.

I fear it will just keep getting worse. (sigh)

Do the anti-abortion crowd really have no idea how miserable the lot in life is for the unwanted child?

Julie

You did right.

About the only thing I ever did was related to an animal being beaten in the guy's yard years ago and I must have barely been in my 20's. I simply pulled over, walked up and said something like, Hey.... How's everything going with you? He was obviously not expecting that and acted like , oh, nothing, really... nothing was, and embarrassed.

Police (and there are many, many good one, realize) are overwhelmed with this stuff. They see it domestically and have to keep in inside.

Where have we gone so wrong?

Really. Unbelievable.

There are so many better ways to teach a child right from wrong hitting is barbaric and senseless

I reported several parents of High School age kids.

The one I remember best was the giant father of an even more giant HS senior... 17 years old. The old man was smacking the shit out of the kid on a regular basis.

No choice. That mandatory reporter stuff, and all.

I'm proud to say I'd have done the same as you.

It's torn the family apart. I love her kids. She keeps them away from me now. The authorities have investigated and she is being watched, but I fear the verbal and sometimes physical abuse goes on. I am the quieter of the two of us and she bad mouths me around town and people believe her, because she seems so "friendly and normal" as one person said to me. Her two ex-husbands now want the kids, so I am being blamed for breaking up the family. I don't even know if the ex-husbands are any better than she is, they never cared before.The kids just want me to keep quiet and not let them be taken away from their mother, but she's abusive-- I had to speak up. It's just really hard...

do you have a good support system around you? good friends, or anyone you can really talk to? remember, you did the right thing, regardless of how your family and others are treating you. you did it for the kids, and that is what is important.

I would not hesitate to turn in a family member who was committing abuse, and be damned to them for hating me for it. (and believe me, they would be a lot safer with the authorities than dealing with me)

'Special Education Consultant; in a large city. She told of many horrible stories containing child abuse but one story sticks out in my mind.

She would go into people's homes in order to make assessments on children to gauge the children's level of impairment. This was usually done while the child was young, 2,3 or 4 years old. While she was in one home doing an assessment on one child, his younger brother who my mother later found out was under the age of 1, screamed the entire hour my mother was in the house. The child wailed so much and all the mother did was to yell at the child to 'shut up.' After the visit, my mother reported the mother to authorities. The police took the child from the home and went immediately to the hospital. The baby had 2nd and 3rd degree burns on its buttocks, thighs and lower back. It came out that the mother had tried to get the baby to stop yelling prior to my mother's visit and had placed the baby in a frying pan, lit the stove and 'cooked' the baby.

Of course this woman was nuts. I do not know what became of this child. Maybe he went into the system or maybe he was returned to the home.

So many more stories; so many more children harmed or killed.

We can only handle a certain level of stress and anxiety. When we're worried about the next meal, keeping a roof over our heads and appropriate layers of clothing on our family's bodies the stress level goes through the roof. Sadly, the weakest among us get the brunt of that anxiety.

I am by no means excusing what the woman did and I'm glad you intervened. I simply fear the incidence is rising with an economy in shambles.

and being dumb/irresponsible only seems to make it easier.

The whole process should involve some sort of arithmetic or basic problem solving.

And so true.

This is one of those memes that I wish we'd stop using.

She should become addicted to some controlled substance, lose all her money and somehow forget any education she has.

In general it is really easy to get knocked up. I'm sure there are infertile rabbits, that doesn't make the "breeding like rabbits" thing untrue in the general sense.

has sat next to me and cried for hours. It doesn't matter who she is, what matters, to her friend, is that she is devastated.

but I fail to see how it negates the basic observation of my post: namely that people breed very rapidly and there is no barrier to stupid/irresponsible people breeding.

She should adopt, there are tens of thousands of unwanted children produced by people who were unfit to be parents but were biologically capable of doing so.

is not "easy". Have a great day.

"and there is no barrier to stupid/irresponsible people breeding."

As also there is no barrier to people feeling as though they have absolute knowledge as to who should have children or not...

should not have children. You don't? Ok, but we differ on this.

Also those who would allow them to die or be crippled through perpetual neglect.

Seems like a pretty clear line between those who may, and those who must not ever be allowed to have kids.

Why do you suppose adoption centers do background checks on potential parents?

We ALL need to be heard and our concerns respected.

ALL of us.

You didn't realize, in that thread, that I am not one of the rah rah-ers. You rushed to judgment...so take it someplace else.

People could be a lot more sensitive to those like your friend. They are suffering pain, and deserving of human compassion and simple consideration.

American Indians are deserving of the same consideration, as are poor and homeless people, etc.

We are all in this together, and this jabbing at each other is not only tiresome, but very destructive.

And, no.... I belong at DU, and won't be run off by someone with too much armor on.

Have a very good day, and I send best wishes for your friend.

Is it suddenly a new thing that parents mistreat kids? If anything, it was more prevalent and less reported in the past.

Our definitions of mistreatment have changed. Our levels of expectation, our levels of reporting of incidents and our 24 hr news cycle bring oh so many woes into the light and we begin to notice them. Some of us are shocked and move to prevent such things, others are overwhelmed and allow it to become an accepted part of the background.

Its like the shocking "school shootings" that started getting massive news coverage. I was talking with a US history buff after columbine, thinking in my youth that this was quite a shocking and unprecidented event. He had stories going back to pioneer days, disturbed students with a stick of dynamite planning or succeeding in blowing up the one room school house.

This has got to be one of the very small handful of threads where everybody agreed...

:fistbump:

"that all these social services cuts are showing up "


These people shouldn't be parents and should be arrested. The lady hit her kid and was yelling at the kid. She is the one with a problem. I don't care how bad you have it. You either are abusive or not. I promise you that women has other cloths at her house for her child. She is just garbage and isn't dressing the 3 year old right. That is a form of abuse. No social services can fix these people. They need to lose their kids. Unless that's what you mean. There isn't enough social services to get these kids away from their abusive parents.


By the way My family was in a Target parking lot looking for a place to park. When my wife yells that lady is punching her kid. She went flying up to their van. I said you don't need to hit a child like that which it turned into a mess. My wife & I were so worked up arguing with these 2 moms that we didn't even think to get their license plate number and call the cops.

My wife said the lady started with a close fist dropping about 4 or 5 hammer fist down on the kids head. And they were very hard. My wife couldn't believe it. We were both in kind of a shock and now we feel so guilty for not getting the plate # and calling the cops. Because like my wife said " If she can do that in public just think what she will do behind close doors"

so much of the child abuse I see here is from young, mostly single parents. We live in an economically-depressed area. There are no jobs and little opportunity even for those of us with college educations, much less those who didn't graduate high school. Having children is an income, medical, housing and food source. As an adult, you can only collect assistance for 5 years in a lifetime (Clinton's Welfare Reform); however, one can get assistance for children until they are 18 so they have children. Sometimes many children. Too often they're so young (15, 16, 17 . . .) and they've not yet matured enough to develop the coping skills they'll need to implement good parenting. The overwhelming responsibilities of child-rearing become too much and it's not surprising when abuse/neglect cases rise. What other outcome could there be? Child abuse occurs in all socio-economic levels, of course, but the increase in child abuse that you mention (also in my area) could be partly attributed to poverty and lack of opportunity in a severely depressed economy.

Flame away.

:hide:

They sold out children for politcal gain.

How crass is that?

:shrug:

livable wage jobs and decent education would go a long way to solving our problems

K&R

....all lead to higher crime rates, more domestic abuse, higher suicide rates and more incidents of child abuse.

So, it continues because we don't address the real issues.

yea its true more abuse happens in poor areas but its still no excuse.

Also there are plenty of middle class parents abusing their kids. That have jobs.

I think it happens more in poor areas because of up bringing. They were raise in the same environment. With a single parent that didn't give them the love and support they needed. They most likely are parenting the same way they were raise. And don't get me wrong there are poor people who need a chance to get out. but a lot of the people in poor communities don't have the ambition to try and succeed and get out of those neighborhoods. I see it all the time. They are happy living in the poor area. So they don't have to work.

Where I work they bring in Temps or hire people full time and you can tell they are from in the city in the poor area. Yet they show up for 2 or 3 days then you never see them again. Just don't show up. And where I work they pay their employees a good wage with benefits. Some people just don't care.

Yea, there are some serious social problems and I'm against any cuts to them. But I will never use being poor as an excuse to beat your kids or abuse your spouse. You are what you are, in good times or bad.

in times like this, all of the bad effects go up.

So, you will need to take your argument to those who do the research and compile the stats.

There are plenty of people in bad times that dont take it out on their kids or spouse. Now Im talking about abuse. Just because of bad times doesnt mean you beat your kids. And to use that as an excuse is a joke. I lost my job so Im going to beat my kids? No you beat your kids because there is something wrong with you as a person.

:shrug:

You have fun with that... obviously logic is not part of this discussion, so have at it.

Bye now.

I agree the rates go up under hard times. Thats where your stats come into play. And I would also like to see these stats. That on child abuse it goes up. Or are you linking crime & abuse together? I dont think there is a study just under child abuse. I bet in the poorer community as a whole there is more child abuse but being poor isnt the reason.

But your so called "logic" is that hard times create the wrong doing. My "logic" that I guess I dont have according to you , is it doesnt not matter what happens in life, you choose how you will act. Im not giving a person who lost their job and abuses their kid any leniency compared to a well off person who abuses their kid. Now if a person who lost their job stole food or cloths. Yea. I would give leniency. But there are plenty of poor people & people who fell on to hard times that dont abuse their kids. So that would stand to " reasoning " that hard times & being poor dont make you a child abuser.


So you have at it. ( "It" is the excuses you are making for child abuse )

I don't have any responsibility to defend words put into my posts that aren't there.

You used the words logic & reasoning while putting me down because I disagreed with your opinion as some unworthy of your knowledge or attention.

I just think your act of rightness & betterment is pretty vain.

...the issue here is that abuse is more hidden in those homes with the ability to defend themselves legally.

The statistics we see are with what they call "founded" abuse. This abuse is considered a fact after merely pointing the finger without having to show proof and unconstitutionally assuming the accused is "guilty until proven innocent" instead of observing the Constitution and "The Color of Law".

Proceedings are held in secret courts with no access for the accused to records or any access to the myriad of information gathered about their case by the other side. All is done before a judge with a "public pretender" paid out of the same funding as everyone else who also stands to benefit greatly if they lose because of the caveats in Title IV funding, which mandates, "the more kids you take the more money you make and if you return these kids to their birth home you lose money (Title IV E)".

It is for these reasons the 9th Circuit Court ruled for a falsely accused couple where another reason was because DSHS themselves admitted that over 70% of their accusations were false. One might also wonder about the other 30% of "founded" cases they claim are true where there is not a proper defense allowed in a REAL court of law. CPS fights a real court procedure because they have a lot to hide and a lot to lose when they have to come up with credible evidence. Many advocates like me are trying to put through legislation that forces CPS to prove their accusations with credible evidence and with access to their records in a real court of law. Until then these proceedings are not Constitutionally done at all.

The only accused people who get real defense is those who can afford a good lawyer who has shown they have a good court track record and can get access to things the other "public pretenders" do not even try to get because they know it is too much work and time to force the issue. A public pretender does not even have to show his court success rates in order to be one, which is a clear ABA ethics violation that is routinely ignored. So if they lose, so what ~ losing all the time is not considered to be "valid" criteria to be considered a family court public defender.

I can tell you that upper income people have as much abuse ~ they can hide it better is all.

Still the truth is whether they are upper or lower income families in truth there is a MUCH smaller rate of abuse than we are led to believe.

Cat in Seattle

We need to stop people from taking it out on children and spouses. We all feel frustration, but we cannot allow it to spill over to kids or spouses.

She's lucky I wasn't there.

babies then there is no support for them.

Abortion should be available to any woman who wants one. This used to be the way of thinking back in the '60's and '70's. Now the Organized Religions have decided to WORSHIP THE FETUS.

The cost of Birth Control has skyrocketed....used to handed out free! Not now. I detest the cruelty of patriarchy.

I read that College Women are more likely to be for Gay Marriage than Abortion. Talk about brainwashing women into NOT caring for themselves. Just like the poor vote for Repugnants.

The world is insane and I best go :hide: before it's too late.

Since you are seeing injustices so frequently, you might consider video taping them if you have a pocket camcorder or a camcorder on your mobile phone. It's really hard to keep calm and quiet in instances like that but imagine if you pulled out a camera and recorded the woman hitting the child then the license plate and maybe follow them a little to see where they get out and film that, you have some terrific evidence that will bring that woman to justice and maybe even make it on the 6 o'clock news.

All too often the police don't care or worse, they're the ones breaking the law.

The camcorder is the people's most powerful weapon.

It's usually from the same group of people that enjoy tagging their vehicle with NRA and Smith & Wesson stickers. I live in Eastern TN, so maybe I'm just stereotyping, but it seems at least from my own anecdotal evidence that there's a correlation.

It's a shame wherever it happens and it happens across the social spectrum. I saw a couple that had pulled over to the side of the road and had their what appeared to be 5-6 year old son out beside the road in full view of everyone passing. The "father" had him suspended in air pulling him by the wrist and was beating the shit out of butt and lower back. Now, I was spanked as a kid and this wasn't anything I had ever had to suffer through, it was barbaric. I pulled over a little past them and called the police. After convincing the 911 operator that this wasn't just a spanking, but a beating, she dispatched an officer. By that time, they had already pulled out past me and I got their tag number. I couldn't get caught back up to them, but the police came zooming past me and about 3 or 4 miles down the road they had them pulled over. The dispatcher told me to pull aside somewhere in the area out of site in case I was needed to identify them or to give my account. Apparently, they found something else in the car of interest and more police and DCS came to the scene, so I wasn't needed. I always wonder what happened to that kid and hope that his situation turned out ok.

If caregivers have this tendency for abuse, yes, there should be more programs they can go to for help that would not cost them a lot. Child abuse has been going on for years but I think it has probably escalated more so now. You did the right thing, but how many more parents are out there who no one sees doing these sorts of things to their children? It turns my stomach to think about it. As we head toward mothers day those of us who are mothers or who have had mothers set aside this day to remember to them. I wonder, however, how many victims of abuse really feel like celebrating.

As an adult survivor of childhood abuse, thank you for not only reporting, but intervening. The world needs more of you.

Too many people wouldn't. I can't honestly say that I'm certain I would.

It's no excuse but explains alot.

schools is not poor quality teachers but poor quality families. Parents are impatient and undisciplined, and of course, so are their children.

Good for you for reporting this. We have to help people of childbearing age treat their children with respect and discipline them through orderly and calm, respectful living and not with brutality.

good that you did what you did! I used to do emergency housing for abused women and respite care for children... my stories are heart-breaking

I was sneaking in their yard and feeding and watering their dog.

A purebred boxer. Somehow they had the money to buy a purebred animal, but no money for food?

Our County Animal Control is almost worthless, but calling them did get the dog proper feeding - but still lack of water in a County where 100 degree temps are the norm from July to mid September.

Oh, and the woman works as a prison guard.

Rumor has it that when her son was in his teens - she often didn't have food in the house for him to eat.

first having located the boxer rescue group in your area. I would have also been very likely to contact the media, with video.

good for you!!

And there is abuse of children by other children, too. I have a friend that was raped by a 16-year-old developmentally disabled boy in her neighborhood when she was 10. Her cousin was also forced to perform oral sexual acts on him, and I guess, got recruited into the "scheme" to keep from having to do more of it.

They were all frightened to say anything - the cousin, because of his shame on both the original act, and then getting my friend into the barn where she was molested. So horrible all the way around.

The 16-year-old, according to my friend, had the mental faculties of a child - I guess that is how she reconciles it - but the strength of a teenager.

It's breathtakingly sad what happens to those around us, some times.

Assaulting your kid is not one of them.

Thank you....so much.

Have a beautiful day.

that's not an excuse for anyone's behavior in abusing a child, however --

I've seen this -- a young child getting an unbelievable thumping by a father in a

public park!! And no one reacted in a park full of people -- however, I pulled up

next to where their car was parked -- the child was being thumped down on the top

of the hood and whacked, as well -- and shouted that I was calling the police.

Hope that your actions helped the child -- and perhaps in the long run the mother, as well!!

:)

license plate, so they had the option of catching up with her at home.

I'm sure his/her annoying cries were very annoying.

Thank you for speaking up for that poor child.

Some people don't deserve to be parents. If you cannot control your temper with a child who is in a carseat, how will you handle them as they grow?

If someone is not prepared to be a responsible parent, they should not have children.

Of course, if the GOP and Conservatives get their way we will certainly see more of this as women will not have a choice.

The poor children.

My grandchildren are 6 & 11. If I ever saw ANYONE abuse them, even their parents, I would have them in court and yank those two away from them so fast it would make their heads spin. And they ALL know it too. There is never a reason to abuse a child; its unthinkable. I've had to rescue several children from neglect and abuse in my life. It breaks my heart.

Annette (Mimi)

Although we do not know the motive or cause, we do know that many American who are unemployed, under-employed or facing unemployment are under so much stress.

I would feel for the children of these people as well as a little compassion for the parents. It does not warrant the actions she took but when the pressure mounts many cannot handle it and snap in bad ways.


But then there are parents who are just shouldn't be either. Know not what this situation was but could only speculate. Hope the law was able to straighten things out one way or another for the child's sake.

As a former worker for Child Protective Services I can state with confidence you did precisely the right thing-- both legally and ethically.

We do what we can, when we can, and hope others do too.

You ought to see how German kids are dressed in the winter. They're so bundled, they can't move their arms--like little Michelin babies.

Of course, 30 paid days vacation (by law) per year, free health care, free education, kindergeld (monthly allowance given to parents), and the cultural attitude that swings heavily to the betterment of society rather than to the indivisual helps, does it not?

My retirement dollars will be spent in Germany.

abuse in this world and when we turn our heads we are contributing to it.

Calling the cops assumes that our system is set up to handle situations such a this.

While what she did was wrong, but it does NOT merit putting her in jail.

If she is a single mom then that would also mean her children get to experience the joys of living in a foster home, or even worst being taken away for an extended period.

Does anyone really think that isn't even more traumatic for the children.

While there is no perfect solution, calling the cops on a the woman without any thought is as stupid as stupid can get. Cops are notorious for imposing the most severe punishment they can think of, NOT to help the child, but out of sheer meanness.

It makes you feel like you did the right thing while disrupting the child's live a 1000x worse than the slap did.

Hey maybe as an added bonus the kid got to see his mother thrown down to the ground, tazed and handcuffed while being arrested without any explanation other than what the kid comes up with - it's his fault.

Truly defending children takes MORE thinking the "calling the cops".

The irony is the most effective action is "social reprobation".

Merely being seen and embarrassed after what she did can go a lot further to making someone think twice than throwing them in jail.

It's all part of the "It takes a Village to raise a child" concept. We teach each other the right and wrong ways to behave by communicating with each other. Calling the cops and driving off is a coward's way of handling it.

Obviously I find calling the cops and driving off no less reprehensible than slapping the kid, for far worse things could result from it easily destroying the family based on the ASSUMED notion that the kid's life is a living hell.

Most of them I heard from my ex, who used to scream them at his daughters every time he beat them up- how they would go to a foster home where they wouldn't get fed and might get raped, and he'd go to jail and it would be ALL THEIR FAULT!

The girls were terrified, and by the time the state finally took us seriously and yanked custody, had really wanted to go to foster care no matter how bad the conditions might be.

Putting the child in foster care, where they may or may not be cared for, is not second choice to leaving them with a parent where they will DEFINITELY be beaten, just so they won't be destabilized. That's horseshit.

People do not respect parenting as an actual JOB. They treat it like it is a "hobby". They never give credit to the fact that people raising their children are raising the next generation to take care of THEM when they can no longer do it. Therefore this should be a community effort where we gladly support parents and their kids as neighbors, relatives, and community leaders.

- Who is going to pay their Social Security as we pay the previous generations ~ heck my generation (Boomers) paid BOTH our parents' AND our own generation's Social Security and will be the only ones to do so.

- Who is going to run our infrastructure when we no longer can?

- Who is going to fight our wars when we can no longer do it?

do people think that the fairies are going to do this?

This is why, rather than being selfish idiots who refuse to "take care of someone else's kids" we should want the next generations to be well educated, kindly cared for with a supportive communities and raised to be responsible citizens because people gladly participated in their upbringing. Then they will give US kindly care, take respectful responsibility to care for us when we cannot do it, and be educated enough to understand and be able to fix what we cannot.

This lack of respect is particularly true for low income women who are struggling and often left the entire burden of providing for, training, healing, educating, and doing everything with no help. Then they are blamed because they (nor can any human being) do it all alone and their kids are troubled. She is expected to be in two places at one time (I am not making this up, if she is working and her kid gets in trouble, well where the HELL was she "neglecting" her child, the lazy so-and-so), be the breadwinner, and it goes on.

But hey, who is the sick elder person going to expect to take care of THEM? You know the ones "who did not have children because they were SO much more responsible not to reproduce"???? You know those people who could do it all by themselves and did not need anyone and never had time to do anything but for themselves? Some woman's child, that's who will do it. And make sure to get them CHEAP because they are too miserly to even pay their caregivers enough to pay the rent to come clean up their filthy adult diaper.

Parenting is *not* a hobby, it is a contribution to our communities and our country's future. Most other countries respect this work. America creates Welfare DEFormed where it codifies into law that parenting is "doing nothing" but "do you want fries with that? "does something", which in reality only makes the rich man richer. Thank YEW Robert Rector from the Heritage Foundation for writing THAT little screed.

Cat in Seattle

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especially hitting a little kid so hard his head hits the window. Kids should never be hit.

No way would I get 197 recs here, though. lol
At any rate, thanks for caring and doing the right thing.

Plus, the price of everything keeps going up and incomes are going down. Parents are stressed out. If a parent has poor parenting skills to begin with, they are all toppling over the edge now. It's horrifying.

I didn't have enough groceries in the house yesterday to pack a lunch for my son, so I needed to give him lunch money, $1.50. I only had $1.50 which meant I walked 4 miles to work instead of taking $1.50 bus. This is STRESSFUL! But I have a lot of other resources, internal and external and my son is not in danger. I could never imagine slapping him. A lot of other parents have very poor internal and external resources. (Probably a good reason for them to have not had kids!) Anyway, in a world that is getting worse, most people also get worse. Our kids are paying a terrible price.

We have to be vigilant and we must report abuse of children. People are under so much stress these days, we strike out at the ones who are dearest to us, either verbally, and yes, sometimes physically. We don't know anything about this particular mother. We should make sure though, as citizens, that striking a child is wrong and it will be reported. We have to let others decide the punishment. I can't help but think that this is a consequence of a society completely void of parenting and coping skills; a society completely out of control. It breaks my heart.

So, good luck.

But there are people watching out for kids. Brave people like you who report abuse are watching out for them.