I don't know how to say this kindly, so I won't

I've read many here but, we could have captured him alive....

In the real world where I chose to live, I know that operation of the sort carried out last Sunday are highly risky. highly chaotic, and when targets such as OBL are involved... your chances of capturing this target alive... are anywhere from nill to highly unlikely.

There are many rasons for that.

Suffice it to say that games, novels and movies are not doing us any favors. Real life is far away from any of this fiction.

Now morality... should we, could we? Yep, maybe... but in reality is that in the real world that was highly unlikely.

I also have a theory. Since MOST Americans really do not know how the military REALLy works... we have a slew of fantasies floating around. Suffice it to say... Splinter Cell is not real.

As I said, I have no idea how to say this nicely.

To the SEALS involved... good job, nobody got hurt, you are going back to your families and will take details to your graves. That is also the real world.

So let me raise a glass in your honor.

I hear you...

:toast:

It is a good battle if,
at the end,
glory shimmers on a warrior’s shield
thick with arrows.

- Ode to a Prophet
by Salvador Diaz Mirón - Mexican poet

In addition, I started thinking about how dangerous it would be if he were alive and being held somewhere. I imagine a lot of his followers would be looking to show him their support in some way or another. And these are not nice people. And any trial would be a mad circus. All in all, I think that this situation turned out as it should have.

and their training teaches them how to handle the real-life situations virtually all of us will never face.



Tikki

what about legality?

Are people concerned about laws just video game nerds?

Here is a warrant Mr. Bin Ladin, will now you come quietly please?

Yes I wish we could. but that real world is pesky. There were way too many reasons why that wasn't gonna happen... in an ideal world, sure... but in the real world.. nope, not really. And if you want to look at the reasons why... there are many reasons as to why. Some of them less savory than others...

of course. You're declaring it's impossible but you make absolutely no case for that, other than the SEALs rock and we all suck. That's not the real world, that's just you choosing to get behind the government on this. Which is fine, but other people may choose otherwise. In the real world.

1.- Trial and security would be a real nightmare, and if you think there would be ahem political matters now... just wait to give that one to the GOP. (Yes in the real world politics plays a role too)

2.- CIA's role in the creation of the Taliban and the thousands of misiles and other weapons that ended up in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

3.- He was a CIA asset.

As I said, there are less savory reasons why this was not going to happen. There are others like him as well around the world. And those people would never be arrested either. It is the reality of Empire...

And that is the real world... a dark world where most dare not thread. That is what you just got a peek into.

No the SEALS dont rock... they did a job, that's all.

:shrug:

every last one applies just as much to Saddam, and probably more, since Bush and the Republicans had more to hide.

But they did get Saddam alive, in this real world we are living in.

that is what they were trying to avoid.

Saddam did NOT want to die, Osama did, and he stated as such. It also helps that Osama was ill.

There are times for things, but I think such a trial would've been a time where somebody put a mirror up to the face of the United States for what it all is.

no doubt in my mind, but that is the real world...

People were terrified about holding those trials in NYC. But it was done, justice was done and none of the fears people had became a reality.

Bin Laden should not have been tried here. He was responsible for crimes in other countries also, and should have been tried in the International Court.

I have no doubt he could have been tried without much happening.

As for getting him alive, that is a different story, I have no idea what happened and frankly, I thought he was dead long ago and he's pretty irrelevant to most of the world, 'old news' as many have said.

But I wish people would stop acting like the US is helpless because a relatively minor number of people might do something violent. Once again, letting them win. If we can only get justice when things are going great, then what good is our system, we need to do something about it.

But, he's dead now, we tried the Child Soldier from Afghanistan in a Military court recently, which was a travesty of justice and angered people all over the world, as he did not deserve that, and should have been rehabilitated. But again, angry as people were, the trial went forward, no one, other than the defendant was harmed. We can do it, IF we want to. We didn't want to and it's over.

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But I do have a suspicion they really had no intention of taking him alive. I suppose if Bin Laden completely obviously threw up his arms they might not have shot him, but I really don't think even the slightest effort was made to capture him. It seems pretty clear to me they not only didn't want him alive, they didn't even want to deal with the corpse. I am fine with that, but I don't think we should pretend it was otherwise.

Also, the pictures should be released.

we need to pretend to go back to the world order, and geneva convention comes to mind

This isn't some random terrorist or Talibunny, this is Bin Laden. UBL has a lot of significance to a lot of people and seeing photos of him dead would bring more closure than anger.

These pictures will eventually get out, it is not going to hurt to release them now and get it behind us.

Somehow I feel supremely confident that if the Bush administration had claimed to kill Bin Laden, dumped his body in the ocean in rapid fashion and gave somewhat conflicting accounts of what happened, that DU would be DEMANDING to see the proof. Why? Because we didn't trust Shrub. Now the same applies here except on the world stage - much of the Arab world does not trust the US one iota and many/most will not believe UBL is dead until they see some proof.

are clear on it.

At best it is a gray area, but most legal scholars I've seen agree that it is legal to release the photos.

Article 13 of the Geneva Convention does not cover this, Bin Laden was not a prisoner of war. Comm Article 3 of the convention covers other conflicts but does not address the treatment of bodies. Customary International Humanitarian Law covers despoiling bodies, but it is a stretch to claim despoiling covers releasing photos of the dead. Even if Geneva 13 covered this it does not preclude releasing photographs for documentation purposes.

Again, at very best this is a gray area, but most likely the Obama administration could release these photos and they are not claiming international agreements are the reason they are not doing so.

second, it is not gray... but whatever...

It is up to them... so far they say no, and they are citing security and blowback, which is equally valid

And with that, we agree to dsagree

:toast:

As the proverbial panda does....

And let me raise a glass right along with you!

when we captured Saddam then killed him without trial? I'd bet not.

but there was a trial and an execution by hanging... with the screams of Muqtadah in the background

legitimate charges in front of witnesses and a jury.

This was a 95% or better chance of having to kill him with some collateral damage as well.

Nobody gives a flying fuck about what harm is inflicted on bin Laden but is important to live our values on the extremes or they become lip service and hypocrisy.

I am not cheering, I am not admonishing those who do cheer, and I am going to bed. :)

What a lot of people probably aren't taking into account is that these guys were in the suicide bombing business. They could have had the whole damn place wired with explosives for all those SEALs knew, but they went in there after him anyway, that took a lot of damn guts. I won't second guess them on this one, not for a minute.

You can armchair quarterback it to death but unless you're in the shoes of the guys that were there you can never know what it was like. A big salute to SEAL Team 6 on a job well done. :patriot:

deserved life in prison. Yeah most civilians have no clue how the military works. They get their ideas from Hollywood & stupid pundits/politicians (that don't know jackshit either), like most social/cultural misconceptions we find in the MM.

Remember that he did the worst of the crimes he was charged with (chemical weapons, massacring his own people and such)with the full support of the Reagan/Bush admin. It is only later, when it was "politically expedient" that he was used as a fall guy for the foreign policy failure of the Neocon agenda.

...my versions always end up with a capture or a non-disfiguring kill shot, but reality is that I have NO IDEA how this went down. The team did its job and did it well and deserves credit for that.

not know how the military REALLy works..."

everyone involved from the top down need to be commended for a job well done.

Or I suppose as an alternative, once the SEALS got on the ground, they could have invited everyone to a meeting with tea and cookies to discuss it.