For those that say to any of us that suggest if we had a choice

on capturing bin Laden and not only summary execution at the moment of encounter, we'd prefer capture, that we are crying for him or supporting him, I have a message for you but I can't express it here without getting banned. But it is heartfelt.

Who and what we aspire to has been lost. It seems like Cheney and bin Laden won and the future lost, civilization lost and we are just hanging around waiting for a new dark age to get into full swing.

I understand emotion, revenge, and all that. I didn't think a legitimate debate on a course of action though, would sink quite that low. Definitely something has been lost.

from the inside and vengeful middle-easterners deconstructing us from the outside -- no wonder we are simply disappearing into thin air.

most of which I respect, even if I don't share in the opinion.

The only opinion I don't respect are those who are gnashing their teeth simply because they loathe Obama and loathe anything he does (Tea Partiers), reasons be damned.

I can't imagine there is ANYONE who supports OBL or mourns him, and I am sorry you and others have encountered such accusations. There are very principled reasons for opposing this action, imho.

I respect them and those who hold them. Definitely you, mmonk.

:hug:

I just don't have a definitive opinion on this matter, to be honest; I'm very detached, though trying to work through exactly why I'm detached. ;)

My opinion is not in concrete either way on the issue though I usually prefer rules of engagement and the rule of law as much as possible. But that accusation needs to be addressed.

Has any other president in history been so raked over the coals for laying waste to a fierce and feared enemy?

I have been very ambivalent about this because I hate the thought of murdering a human being, but to ask me to show more sympathy or compassion for a mass murderer than he showed for his 3000+ dead victims and his thousands of living victims is really giving me pause... and making me say WHAT THE FUCK? Where the hell did I wake up? What manner of bizarro world is this!?

I understand the idea that we should be above violence, but to use this as a vehicle to point fingers at Obama, which is the vast majority of what I'm seeing here and elsewhere, is really telling.

about targeted assassinations because Obama took office.

If you are ok with bin laden being dead that you must now be against all rule of law and ready to just start killing anyone you deem bad... Well... You are wrong.

That's the thing with civilizations: the shit gets complicated. It's rarely black or white.

One person's idea of justice is different from another, and there's nothing inherently wrong or "bad" about either viewpoint.

Just as compassion, integrity, etc., have different interpretations and ways of being put into action.

Very, very complicated, imho. It's why civil discussion, open minds and honesty are imperative.

:hi:

but I would ask questions.

Like, where would a trial be held? Where could a trial be held? How about in the cities/towns of the people who think he should have gotten a trial? Lots of publicity. People picketing. Shouting hateful things. Maybe even rioting.

Where would we find a jury of his peers who do not already think he's guilty of the accusations?

Would people even want to be on that jury? What if they found him not guilty? Would they want to live with the fear that people who hate him would hold them responsible for being his key to freedom? What if the jury found him guilty? Same thing...would they want to live with the fear that his supporters might target them for revenge?

If no jury, then maybe just a judge. Same thing as above. Guilty or innocent, either way he may have to live in fear the rest of his life.

OK, so if there's no answer to the above questions, then let's just say the whole trial would have to be held in secret. In an undisclosed location. Nobody knows who the judge/jury/lawyers are. And nobody would know whether or not a FAIR trial had been given.

So...basically...a secret trial with no assurance of fairness...nothing but a sham, in the eyes of some, and I would agree.

Sham trial. So we at least maintain the appearance of being moral and lawful. Tell me how that's any better...more moral... than just shooting his ass and getting it over with.

Seriously...

If we couldn't do it publicly, it would have to be private.

It would be a sham, if indeed it even happened.

But we'd get to drag the High Horse out of the barn and pretend to be better than everyone else, right?

I don't recall this concern being pervasive for them, so it's odd that only OBL deserves a trial.

Why would OBL be taken alive? Suicide attacks were the very method of AQ. Why put the SEALS in danger for that?

OBL knew he wouldn't get a trial. Don't think he'd appreciate your sympathy.

when you say that OBL probably did not expect that he would get a trial...let alone a FAIR trial.

Otherwise, he could have turned himself in years ago and hired the very best lawyers as some have suggested he could have done.

No.

He knew he was a dead man walking.

I really can't imagine anywhere on the planet where he could have gotten a fair trial.

This objection is unlike anything I've ever seen... and I think it stinks. This is still about bashing Obama... plain and simple. Brought to a new and increasingly creepy assed level!

inception. I consider them criminals who should be dealt with the way we deal with all murderers and conspirators. If they resist arrest with the threat of deadly force, then response in kind is justified.

THOSE are the people I'm concerned about, not Bin Laden.

And calling advocacy for human rights and international law "sympathy" for bin Laden is ridiculous.

who disagrees with the precepts and premises of the national security state. Really sickening. I protested twice- and thrice-weekly in the streets against Bush for 8 long years for this?

:shrug:

:spray:

The glory of blood-lust revenge will fade, as it always does.

Seriously, anyone who says that or implies that can be dismissed out of hand.

May as well debate some freeper who says Obama was born in Kenya otherwise, because its the same mentality and intelligence level.


Not worth your time in the first place to debate or get upset over idiots like that.

Here it is, if you haven't seen it. When I posted this it never occurred to me that over half of those who responded to my post were assuming that I'd posted it as some maudlin sympathy piece, instead of more evidence that the Pakistani government or some portion of it had played a role in keeping bin Laden safe.

Earlier than that, I posted an article entitled "Photos show three dead men at bin Laden raid house". Same thing, 90% of the people who responded could not get passed that fact that the dead appeared to be unarmed but exhibited no intellectual curiosity about what sort of favorable environment must the world's most dangerous terrorist be in, in order to feel so comfortable and safe.

Even after I made this post in my own damned thread to help them see something a bit more important:


There was still no coming round.

I drew my own conclusions as I am sure you have drawn yours. :(

PB

as I also found out when trying to keep track of changes to the official story last week.

Which pretty much demonstrates the deeply anti-democratic nature of nationalism.