I missed a memo or something: Are we supposed to feel bad for killing OBL?

Are we supposed to have pity on him and show mercy?

Should we feel guilty?


-----------------------


Which brings me to the next question - should we have had pity on Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, Henry Lee Lucas, Otis Toole and Ed Gein?

This is just plain silly.

But the Dalai Lama is cool with it.

:hide:

Now, and in the future.

You should probably put the bottle away and go to sleep.

Whether he'd be flattered or not is as inconsequential as the amount of mud that flows in the Mighty Mississippi at any given moment.

I wasn't aware of a requirement that DU'ers be sycophants of his.

I'm not a MM fan, I've never been, nor am I beholden to your opinion of me.

Fuck Michael Moore. Not a fan, never have been, and probably never will be.

that the Pope and the Catholic Church are moral authorities. I have been a career long supporter of Mikes but when I heard him quote a vicious bigot as an arbiter of right and wrong, he lost me just like he would have if he'd quoted David Duke. So keep it up, the religious intolerance section just looks daft when they try to present themselves as whispering and moral. Moore is one of the top earners from the events of 9-11, that is one way to look at that film, exploitation and fear mongering. Low tones and traditional dogmas.
The Pope? Really Mike? Ratsy? Kiss his ring, kiss my ass. Anyone who touts bigots is a bigot's advance man.

But he's human, like most of us.

And not that I agree with him on this, but 8 years of Bush/Cheney has made us all pretty cynical

Otherwise, I'm usually shoulder-to-shoulder with Michael Moore.

said he's glad bin Laden is gone and believes the world is better off without him.

Which begs the question: Why is Moore glad bin Laden is dead?

His ramblings made no sense.

As for Chomsky, he's got John Yoo syndrome. Both are portraying bin Laden as a victim.

Yoo is pissed that Osama wasn't taken alive (forget for a second that outcome was completely unrealistic) because he wanted to use the opportunity of bin Laden's capture to criticize Obama for not torturing bin Laden.

Chomsky would have used his capture to launch a to free bin Laden because Bush hasn't been held accountable.

They all belong to the the "dead bin Laden opportunist" club.

LOL

I did!

and he's not looking for work. :)

"opportunist" means employment?

his Nazi analogy was goofy.

The Nazi trials would be more comparable to Bush, not bin Laden, who was still the head of an active terrorist organization.

we had free access to evidence on who was and wasn't a NAZI leader and just what each person had done.

We do not have that kind of access to the evidence on Bin Laden. We do have it on the people in Guantanamo -- or at least we should. They probably shouldn't be in Guantanamo if we haven't already collected the evidence against them.

Further, Bin Laden is, as much as anything, an international symbol of an extremist movement. A trial of Bin Laden probably would have meant terror attacks staged to try to obtain his release or to affect the outcome of the trial. Again, that threat made a trial impractical. Some gang trials and Mafia trials have been hard to hold because of the intimidation of witnesses. Imagine how that would have been with a trial of Bin Laden.

Trials of the prisoners in Guantanamo pose less of a problem because the defendants would not have the high profile that Bin Laden has.

That's my opinion on this issue. Of course, it is just my opinion. I favor civil justice as a principle and would like to see a trial of Bush and Cheney on various grounds. And I certainly think we should not imprison people at Guantanamo if we don't have sufficient evidence against them to try them.

I should add that I suspect that Bin Laden was being protected by certain interests (I don't known what certain interests) with a lot of power in Pakistan. So, we probably could not have taken Bin Laden alive and held him for very long without worse problems than we have as things turned out.

Rationalizations on my part? Maybe. But I hold to them.

I assume you mean other than George Lakoff who says much much meaner things than that about Noam Chomsky most days before breakfast.

They do not like each other which I guess makes sense...I wouldn't like Lakoff either if he wrote an entire book tearing apart my life's work and proving that my linguistic theories don't hold up to scrutiny after I dedicated my entire professional career to being a linguist. Likewise, Chomsky called Lakoff a fraud and said he wasn't qualified to judge his (Chomsky's) work as a linguist.

Academia: where the feuds are so bitter because the stakes are so small.

Just as a hypothetical exercise.

Chomsky refers to Osama as the "unarmed victim" here: http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/noam_chomsky_my_reaction_to_os/

Moore calls it an execution, doesn't believe the burial at sea even happened: http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/michael-moore-bin-laden-wasnt-killed-he-was-executed-27097?page=0,1

There.

Links.

:patriot:

Once you embrace the bin Laden Exception, how does it stay confined to him?

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/06/bin_laden

So, NYC_SKP, whom do you advocate we execute extra judicially next? Zawahiri? Omar? Khalid S. Mohammed? The latter is a problem for the moderately squeamish, since KSM has already been tortured while in our custody. (I'll bet you don't have a problem with that either.) How about extra-judicially executing anyone questioning the extra-judicial execution of OBL? You can get "all medieval on my ass" (to quote Pulp Fiction).

When I look at the video of Bin Laden, he looks like a very old, very tired, possibly ill man.

What would it have meant for the world had we left him to die on God's clock? He was undoubtedly a very evil man. We did not go in and take over Pakistan in order to get him. Not like we did Saddam Hussein.

Think what would have happened had Bin Laden been allowed to die of natural causes -- perhaps kidney failure? His grave would have turned into a shrine to attract people to his ideas. The world would not be better off for that. Not at all.

We do not know who was protecting Bin Laden, but we can have pretty strong and justified suspicions that someone was. This was done so as not to engage with anyone outside the compound. That was a good thing in my opinion. The deaths were limited to those that were essential to completing the mission, and that was a good thing.

We're talking about whether or not an attempt was even considered to capture him, or whether this was just an execution. Leaving him with impunity is the worst of possible outcomes, I think.

Continue to give him medical care for his kidney ailment?

We couldn't give him a trial. Making the evidence against him public would have tipped off his co-conspirators about what we do and do not know.

You cannot hold Nuremburg trials in a country that you do not control. We could hold them at Guantanamo, but it is likely that his co-conspirators would make threats in order to get his release.

Obama was really in a tough position. He put the safety of the men who found him first.

I think there is far more to this story than we know, and I think the mission was far more dangerous than we can imagine.

Bin Laden had to have had powerful protectors in Pakistan in order to be living as he was where he was. He may even have been in a sort of house arrest hidden or openly known to US authorities. There is a story here that is not being told and may never be told.

And of course, it was an execution. They weren't there to serve a warrant.

But he's wrong

Again, let me remind everyone how cynical ALL of us became under 8 years of Bush/Cheney

feudalism and religious fundamentalism. maybe he and bin laden are not so different. after all, they were both on the CIA payroll at some point.

Let me put it this way, Tibet PREFERRED the rule of Mao over the Theocracy in place before the invasion

And this includes the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution - all that stuff

Theocratic Tibet was no different than Saudi Arabia. You stole, they cut off your nose. Shit like that.

Guess he's a cheerleader, too.

Only he isn't. I liked his analogy to the mosquito.

But sometimes -in rare instances- that one can be a real fuckwad.

And the good news is, there's still plenty of other ones left, who aren't going to order anyone to fly planes into buildings.

I'm sure I'm not the only one curious what he may have known that wasn't written down.

Now, he can no longer do that.

We are supposed to feel bad because President Obama got him, and our favorite Monkey George W. Bush did not.

AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS THIS IMMENSE FREAK OUT.

:thumbsup:

that nobody's death should be celebrated, no matter who they are. I don't think they want you to feel guilty.

Part of it is the way some people view human life and part of it is the recognition that some of OBL's concerns were grounded in reality (and confirmed by our response to 9/11).

I don't really know where I stand on the issue. Well, maybe I do; probably more towards the "I don't have a problem with people celebrating OBL's death" side. For now, at least.

But I respect their steadfastness and actually this kind of sentiment is fairly typical of progressive liberals.

Same way I'm glad a rabid dog is dead

I am against the Death Penalty, but to me that's apples and oranges in reference to OBL

as not only to respect all life ourselves but to encourage respect for life in everyone around us. Bin Laden did not respect that concept. That is why he was such a danger to all humans. . . . . .

...and we do this by killing those WE think do not respect life (OUR way of life),
and dancing on the grave?


There is Deep Disconnect here.

It's just plain fucking goofy, is what it is.

And yes, we should declare MISSION ACCOMPLISHED and bring them ALL home

And then start work on selling all of our overseas bases (except maybe South Korea)

it puts the person trying to answer it on the defensive? I thought only Rove did that.

Do we now start sending in SEAL team 6 for everyone we don't like? And what will be the reasoning behind the killings? What about when we withdraw from the Middle East. Will it be ok for them send those teams into the homes of people in the US? I don't think this logic is extreme. There is a slippery slope. And I don't like lynchings. No one can convince me that we absolutely had to put a bullet through Osama's head. He deserved it, no doubt. That isn't how a civilized world works. So go ahead and call me an Osama sympathizer. But for a trillion dollars a year, I can't be convinced that there wasn't another way. It reminds me of when Bush called the Constitution a piece of paper. It is just a piece of paper, unless we uphold it. And so is the rule of justice. The very thing we all cry about in America. Justice for the rich, and justice for the poor. That is no way to improve the way we live on this planet.

jingoistic, flag-waving psychopath who is insufficiently 'enlightened' because they think this is a good thing.

I do like how your response, while complaining about the argument framing of the OP, then proceeds to methodically go through just about every weak or shoddy debate tactic known to man. Was that on purpose? Clever.

They extended none to their victims

Being crushed by falling debris, slowly dying from inhaling that crap in the air after the buildings fell, or being beheaded on live tv

I really hope Bin Laden shat himself in fear.

These fucks have no mercy and it would be foolish to extend it to them.

And THEN feel bad about feeling guilty about feeling good.

Afterwards write a 5 page double-space essay about it to hand to your psychotherapist.

It will be cathartic. I Promise!!

From what I've read, there's been a fair amount more celebration of OBL's death (sometimes bordering on lame-ass "tough guy" posturing, but maybe that's just my take) on here than I've seen people expressing regrets-- so I doubt you missed any memo.

I can just see him choosing to represent himself, and sticking his dirty finger in the air and vomiting out that stupid shit Qutbists tend to spew

As another DUer put it so eloquently: you don't celebrate after taking down a rabid dog. But the dog had to die.

Thank you!

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I think it will take some time before we find out what the orders actually were.

wringing their hands and nashing their teeth over everyone else's relief and joy that that monster is dead. They can moan and groan all they want but I'll continue being happy he's dead and even happier that Obama is the one that got him. :thumbsup:

about it.

Wow - did we just agree again?

:)

We can't quantify it just yet, but Al Queda's Mister Moneybags has been taken down

9/11 may have used crude materials, but it did cost money

Something about civilizations and trials or something another.

I see Cheney assassination squads or extra judicial lynchings. Things that civilized beings just do not do.

You said it better than I could. So thank you.

Before infecting him with HIV and locking him up in a room and only giving him Bacon to subsist on

You know, the ones that have the same soft hands as bin Laden.

feelings about murderers. I get this all the time because I oppose capital punishment. That does NOT mean I don't think the criminals are subhuman scum who deserve to die - I just don't think we have the right to kill them.

My worry about the DP has always been about the innocent being executed, not the guilty

If someone could *prove* that only the guilty are executed, I might give it some credence - but that's never going to happen

Also take into account that the Death Penalty INCREASES the murder rate (Death Penalty states have MUCH higher crime and murder rates than non-DP states)

Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc...

All celebrating together...

Something to consider when revisionists tell you that "America wasn't ready for desegregation/end of Jim Crow laws/Black President/Female President/etc..."

John Cusack at the top right.

Actually, I love this pic, for the reasons you stated.

and makes me smile
:D

People are celebrating the end of a war not the death of Mussolini, the end of a war is a definitive life changing point in history, the death of OBL while much appreciated is more like blip in the war on terror timeline.

or just moving goal posts? Maybe both.

I'm not gloating either. Just glad he cannot hurt anyone anymore.

we don't need to gloat...but we can appreciate the good out of it

a court of law. Of course, Gein was given life and died of cancer in the hospital. Toole was commuted to life in prison and died of liver failure. GW commuted Lucas to life in prison as well, where he died of natural causes. Berkowitz got life and is still alive. Bundy actually was sentenced to death and was executed, so one out of five examples being relevant ain't bad.

Of course, just shooting to death anyone you don't like is very handy: accused hot check writers, accused discourteous waitresses, accused assholes who cut you off in traffic, accused assholes who talk on cell phones in movies, and on and on.

This new kill without so much as an arrest might just make the survivors more polite, more careful, less hasty, and just a little more prone to plan ahead. It might.

Now that he's gone, can we bring the troops home, where they've been uselessly seeking the man? $3 trillion to kill someone. Wow. They always tell me death penalty trials are soooooooooooo expensive, but this looks like that's the exception to the rule.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/whitman/tower_6.html

The Texas Sniper?

The cops killed him, rather than asking him if he wanted to be arrested (which OBL was asked)

I think they did the right thing - do you?

and was shooting at the cops.

He may not have been holding it, but he did have one and the SEALs had no idea if he was going to go out in a blaze of glory or not

And he made many confessions, so its not like we got the wrong guy

You maintain that OBL was holding a rifle and shooting at the Seals.


Will you provide some links or documentation to support your claim.

And yes, they recovered many weapons from the compound

You really want to make OBL the "good guy" don't you?

It must be sad to go through life like that

This is about US, what WE value, and how WE choose to behave.
Who or WHAT Bin Laden was should not be used to set the bar for what WE do.

"Making OBL the Good Guy" is as much a Stawman here,
as it is in the OP.
It is using a LIE in a dishonest attempt to try to WIN something that is already LOST.

Please post links to posts on DU saying that OBL was a "god guy".

a link on that, so let's get to Charlie.

Let's see; he was in the act of killing numerous folk from the Tower at that moment, fired on the officers as they approached him, so under the law of self-defense in Texas, you never have to allow someone to kill you, I would say those officers did the right thing.

So what does this have to do with bin Laden? Reports are he had no weapon or that he did; he hid behind a woman or not; she was his wife or not; we hurried the operation because Bradley Manning leaked it or not; we had the help of Pakistan or not.

So pick some facts. I only need one - if he had no weapon, then he needed to be arrested, like anyone else. Summary execution of unarmed nuisances by law enforcement is quite a tradition in old Texas lore, but I believe that if someone can be arrested, they should be. Trial. If convicted, sentence, and if that sentence if death, okay.

That's what you do in a nation of laws, rather than a nation of hooligans.

AND it certainly has helped the Brits solve their Irish situation, hasn't it?

To think that the only moral dilemma most see right now is whether or not to release the death photo. Wow. (And yes, release it. I bought and paid for it with my tax money; this was done in my name; I am entitled to see it.

in that house with him. Are we sure he didn't commit suicide by seal?

"Good Fucking Riddance, Fuckface"

What we generally try to do is to respect and understand the feelings of those with whom we disagree or who may feel differently about things than we do.

On some bizarro-world DU.