Amerika Sei Verrückt Geworden. America in Decline: Why Germans Think We're Insane

Sun May 08, 2011 at 05:19 AM PDT
Amerika Sei Verrückt Geworden. America in Decline: Why Germans Think We're Insane
by Democrats Ramshield

SNIP

...Intro:
As an American expat living in the European Union, I've started to see America from a different perspective.

Intro:
Als ein Amerikanischer Auswanderer der jetzt in der Europäischen Union lebt, sehe ich Amerika von einem anderen Blickpunkt.

#1)
The European Union has a larger economy and more people than America does. Though it spends less -- right around 9 percent of GNP on medical, whereas we in the U.S. spend close to between 15 to 16 percent of GNP on medical -- the EU pretty much insures 100 percent of its population.

#1) Die EU hat eine umfangreichere wirtschaft und Bevölkerungsgrösse als Amerika. Obgleich sie weniger in etwa 9 Procent (GNP). Des Gesamtwirtschafts aufkommens für Medizinische Versorgung aufbringt, während die US 15 bis 16 Procent ihres Gesamtwirtschafts aufkommen zahlen, versichert die Europäische Union annährend 100 Procent der Bevölkerung mit Medizinischer Betreuung.

#2)
The U.S. has 59 million people medically uninsured; 132 million without dental insurance; 60 million without paid sick leave; 40 million on food stamps. Everybody in the European Union has cradle-to-grave access to universal medical and a dental plan by law. The law also requires paid sick leave; paid annual leave; paid maternity leave. When you realize all of that, it becomes easy to understand why many Europeans think America has gone insane.

#2)
Die USA haben 59 Millionen Bürger ohne Krankenversicherung, 132 Millionen ohne Zahnärztliche Betreuung, 60 Millionen ohne bezahlten Krankenurlaub und 40 Millionen, die Lebensmittelmarken beziehen. Jederman in der EU hat von der wiege bis zum Grab zugang zu einer Gesetzlichen universalen Medizinischen und Zahntechnischen Versicherung. Die Gesetze also erfordern bezahlten Krankheitsurlaub, bezahlten Arbeitsurlaub und bezahlten Schwangerschaftsurlaub. Wenn Man das alles überdenkt, wird es klar, dass die Europäier mutmassen Amerika sei verrückt geworden.

#3)
Der Spiegel has run an interesting feature called "A Superpower in Decline," which attempts to explain to a German audience such odd phenomena as the rise of the Tea Party, without the hedging or attempts at "balance" found in mainstream U.S. media. On the Tea Parties:

#3)
Der Spiegel brachte einen interessanten Artikel mit der überschrift "Supermacht im Verfall" Der versuchte der Deutschen leserschaft solche eigenartigen begebenheiten wie der aufstieg der Tea Party zu erklären ohne die in den Amerikanischen Medien üblichen versuche zur ausweichung und "balance."

#4)
Full of Hatred: "The Tea Party, that group of white, older voters who claim that they want their country back, is angry. Fox News host Glenn Beck, a recovering alcoholic who likens Obama to Adolf Hitler, is angry. Beck doesn't quite know what he wants to be -- maybe a politician, maybe president, maybe a preacher -- and he doesn't know what he wants to do, either, or least he hasn't come up with any specific ideas or plans. But he is full of hatred." http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,726447-4,00.html

#4)
Über die Tea Party: mit hass erfüllt.

Die Tea Party, eine gruppe weisser älterer wähler die ihr Land zurückfordern, ist verärgert. Fox News sprecher Glenn Beck, ein genesender Alkoholiker der Obama mit Hitler verknüpft, ist zornig. Beck ist sich nicht ganz sicher was er sein will - vielleicht ein Politiker, vielleicht President, vielleicht ein Prediger, und er weiss auch nicht was zu tun. Zumindest ist er nicht mit irgendwelchen spezifische Ideen oder Plänen hervorgetreten. Aber er ist mit hass erfüllt.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,726447-4,00.html

#5)
The piece continues with the sobering assessment that America’s actual unemployment rate isn’t really 10 percent, but close to 20 percent when we factor in the number of people who have stopped looking for work...

MORE AT: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/08/974166/-Amerika-Sei-Verr%C3%BCckt-Geworden-America-in-Decline:-Why-Germans-Think-Were-Insane-%28UPDATED%29

:sarcasm:

God, I would kill to live in Europe (and I have lived there before, so don't tell me the "grass is always greener" - I've never been happier, mostly because I have never been as stressed out as I am here).

I am a Brit who spends his life teaching the Luftwaffe to speak English and I can tell you that the NCO's I work with are full of humour. As an American you probably didn't notice it. After all, you think Friends is a comedy.

But it is true that they are not good at being silly. We Americans thrive on silliness. It's one of the things I love and hate about America. My example is always the movie, "Dumb and Dumber" -- that would never get made in Germany. As a Brit, you should know that the Germans would never create a comedy group like Monty Python. It's just too out-there for them.

But that does not mean the Germans are humorless.

- the comedy-show "Ladykracher" (some of those comedy-skits are really hostile towards men)
- stand-up comedian Mario Barth (current world record for largest stand-up performance ever)
- stand-up comedian Ralf Schmitz (unique, no words to describe him)
- the arab/turkish stand-up comedians Kaya Yanar, Bülent Ceylan and Serdar Somuncu (aka "the hate-preacher")
- stand-up comedian Carolin Kebekus ("Nobody plays a hooker as good as I do!")
- the team of the now-discharged comedy-show "Bullyparade": Michael "Bully" Herbig, Christian Tramitz and Rick Kavanian (he can play anything, from woman to gangsta-rapper to mafia hit-man)

It has been 21 years since I lived in Germany, so things have probably changed a lot since I was there. I will search some of the ones you've listed on YouTube -- I'd be delighted to see them! Like I said, I think the Germans DO have a sense of humor. It's just very unique to them. Just like Monty Python is unique to the British. When I lived in Germany, the top "silly" comedian was Dieter Hallevorden, and I just didn't think he was that funny.

Do not read too much into what I posted, I had intended to say that the Germans are funny -- just each country has it's own "style". I just didn't articulate it that well. Having said that, it is true that German comedies do not sell well on the international market. I think that is because they are very specific to Germany. What do you think?

Some of my examples are pretty gross and some are, well, typically german.

For example: comedy skit from "Ladykracher" (main actress and anchor-woman Anke Engelke)

He wants to spice up their sex-life by bringing a camera into their bedroom. She is uncomfortable and He has to swear, He will never show the video to anyone. He talks her into sex in front of the camera and She reluctantly agrees.
Both are still in underwear.
They start making out.
She massages his balls.
He has a premature ejaculation.
He curses and runs into the bathroom.
She: "Honey, I changed my mind! I won't care if you show the video to your friends!"

... and that is a bad thing, how exactly?

BTW, Germans do have their own brand of bad trashy comedies, esp. from the 70s and 80s, in fact they are far funnier that Dumb and Dumber since among other things they show plenty of naked people doing all sort of silly stuff.


It is funny to see Americans, or other saxons for that matter, think they have some sort of comedy monopoly. Whereas in many parts of the world they see us as not that funny and waaaaaaay too uptight. That is the problem with generalizations from other places. The truth is that different cultures have different approaches to humor, and they can not be necessarily transplanted successfully correctly due to their cultural baggage and context. There are plenty of funny 'muricans, and I have been laughed my ass off with some of my dear German friends.

At the end of the day, most people really are not that different. People all over the world love to laugh, it is one of those things that make us... you know, human. Even zeee Germans.

Now, the Swiss however... :-)

I started it by saying that the germans arefunny and, in fact, I think they are best at wry, dry humor. By saying they wouldn't make a movie like "Dumb and Dumber" is not a judgement call. And by no means do I think Americans have a monopoly on comedy. I just think the Germans are not (generally speaking) "silly" in the way Jim Carrey or Monty Python are silly (which are 2 totally different kinds of silly). I used to work in the movie industry in Germany, and they definitely do have their own comedy. No question. (I once worked on a Dieter Hallevorden film. It's not my taste, but some think he is hysterical.) But, the fact remains, the german entertainment industry is not as strong on comedy as in other areas of entertainment. The comedy they do have is usually very "german", meaning it is usually about german topics or it doesn't translate as well. You don't hear of very many german comedies making it big internationally. But if you speak german and understand the subtleties of their language, they can be quite funny. I just think the Germans are strongest in a wry, dry way -- both in film and in one-on-one discussions. Unfortunately, there is a certain amount of (unintended) stereotyping going on from me in this discussion, because that is what generalities are. Still, I think many experts in the film and entertainment industry would agree with me.

Having said all of that, I must add: When I think of great German films, there are so many that come to mind...If were to list them, I would be writing for hours. That's why I chose to work in the industry in Germany for so many years. Just as I generalize (or stereotype) their comedies, I must also generalize what they do best -- something like "The Lives of Others". The germans are masters at exposing the human element. Americans are so caught up in the huge blockbuster mind-set, that the art of exposing truth with minimal effects is lost. The germans are masters at it. That is what I believe. And , again, I believe many in the industry would agree with me.

http://www.brooklynrail.org/2011/05/books/rudolph-herzog-with-karen-rester

He admits in various interviews that Germans do not have much of a sense of humor, including himself.

Read the jokes about Hitler and you'll be convinced: (PS I'm mostly making trouble but it's partially true imo about Germans)

Rail: There’s this one, for instance: The Gestapo is about to shoot some Jews when the commanding officer walks up to one of them and growls, “You almost look Aryan, so I’ll give you a chance. I wear a glass eye, but it’s not easy to tell. If you can guess which eye it is, I’ll let you go.” Immediately, the Jew answered, “The left one!” “How did you know?” asks the Gestapo commander. “It looks so human.”

Herzog: There’s another great one: Two Jews who left Nazi Germany meet in the wilderness of Sudan carrying rifles. One shoots elephants for his ivory business, the other hunts crocodiles. The first says, “Whatever happened to Simon?” “Oh, he’s a real adventurer,” says the other, “He stayed in Berlin.” I think that that’s brilliant!

Rail: What did people laugh at during the Third Reich that most surprised you?

Herzog: I was shocked to hear how many jokes were told about the concentration camps. These jokes were a mass phenomenon in Nazi Germany, which means the Germans knew the camps existed, that they were not a sanatorium where people were being moved for their betterment. They knew people were being tortured.

Rail: The jokes mention torture?

Herzog: There’s the joke where two men meet in the street and one says: “How was the camp?” The other says, “It was great. We got breakfast in bed then we did some sports, then there was a three-course meal and after they showed movies.” The first says. “Wow! The lies I’ve heard. I just ran into Meyer and he told me horror stories.” The second says, “Yeah, that’s why he got sent back.” Torture is not explicit but you can read between the lines. Meyer gets worked into submission. And some of the camps were near towns where there was the sweet smell from the crematorium in the air. If you put all this information together it becomes clear.

As a brit you might not notice a lack of humor.

After all, you think Jeeves and Wooster is a comedy.

...I suggest you use this.

http://youtu.be/Xx87be_34Do

For anyone who just watched that sh#t and has lost the will to live, I offer something (a) funny and (b) connected to the conversation on this page. America, it seems to me, is being taken over by people like this.

http://youtu.be/UVRQK58jrbw

especially since you "went there" first.

Unless, of course, you can explain

how criticizing "Jeeves and Wooster"

is "hitting below the belt" but

criticizing "Friends" is not. :shrug:

Like, if you wanted to pay me back for the crack about Friends (which was a low blow, I'll grant you, and I expected more abuse for it than I got) then you can hit me a lot harder than Jeeves and Wooster.

Maybe I'll get a new typeface - Times Irony.

Irony can be subtle and the "tone" of a online post can be hard to decipher.

If you don't know the person, it makes it that much harder and I believe those

are pretty much accepted facts.


As to Times Irony, I doubt there's a need, although I understand that

the idea that "Americans have no sense of irony"

has wide currency in the UK.

It baffles us entirely...In our view, nothing could be further from the truth.

We can only imagine that those subscribing to the notion have never spoken to a New Yorker.:hi:


P.S. I dated an Englishman many years ago and we discussed differences in American and British humor.

He firmly believed that British humor was "meaner"....I, myself am a big Monty Python fan as are many others I know.

and I think that's true of people who live in pretty much any large metropolis. Cockneys, for example. I actually live in Hamburg and find the Hamburgers (yes, they are called that) to be out of the same mould.

My best friend is from Texas and she often complains that she doesn't know when I'm being serious. I tell her that when my lips are moving, I'm joking.

British humour is meaner? Could be. We do have insult comedy. The best modern exponent is Frankie Boyle (a Scot) who makes the newspapers for all the wrong reasons, but who usually hits the nail on the head (usually).

http://youtu.be/uTPSYbeNaa8

Also, it's just occured to me that a lot of Blackadder is harsh, sarcastic put downs, not exactly the subtlest of wit.

http://youtu.be/E9VEudeT53k

But we're not really that mean. We're actually quite fluffy.

Finally, to go back to the German sense of humour, I offer you Ten Drugs You Shouldn't Take Whilst Driving. It's all self explanatory, even for non German speakers.

http://youtu.be/EPTEa46isVY

and I'm now a believer...Actually, my significant other is a grandson of

German immigrants who speaks German fluently, and while even HE

was "doubtful" on the subject of German humor, he loved the video and another

comedic German show he saw on TV the other night..."It's funny"!! he shouted

out to me while watching, so hell -- maybe the Germans ARE getting a bum rap!


Yes, I agree that proximity to large metropolitan areas tends to increase the
tendency toward a sense of irony....I grew up on the East Coast, less than 100 miles from NYC,

and to be honest, I don't believe I've met more than a handful of Americans who lack it.


I think you're right about Black Adder...The SO and I used to love it, but it is rather harsh and heavy-handed.

Forget comedy for the moment, though...What I really love from the Brits is their drama, both television and film


The SO and I got so hooked on "Waking the Dead" and "Spooks" that we ordered a multi-directional DVD player

so we could "keep up" with the seasons and buy it on Amazon.UK.com....I hope (if you're a fan) that you get it in Germany.

..So what can I say at this point, mate, but "Kumbaya"?

Say "hello" to the Hamburgers for us!:hi:

Anyone who knows anything about comedy knows that you can't evaluate it out of its own context.

I'll take healthcare for $20, Alex!

That would seem to explain the Germans I met once who told me about the American living in their midst who was too provincial to understand their humor and simply decided they had none...

Of course it might be that he wasn't anymore "provincial"

than the brits who didn't think Johnny Carson was funny...Maybe,

as in the case of the brits, I suspect,

the cross cultural wires simply didn't connect

and your germans were too "provincial" to get that.



P.S. The American in the midst and the poster you

responded to are not the FIRST people to find the concept

of German humor dubvious...Just sayin'.

Some would actually believe that.

through a looking glass.

and just as bad for those of us who are aware of it here in the US.

After WW2, the new German 'system' was to DETER any and all sorts of Fascism. The new system made sure there was a VERY STRONG Union system in place. Hitler outlawed the Unions very early on. And they have installed a very strong social net.

I'm in awe of them. I come from German roots...I wish I could find a relative in Germany and go there to live out the final days of my life.

I am ashamed of what has become of my country. The cruelty, evil and greed is just too much.

Nice post.

My wife (she is German) and I take our summer vacations in the USA, and when I show her some broadcasts
from CNN, she comments on how right-wing biased they are. Hitler cost her mom three brothers and her dad
a leg. I don't even show her Fox Noise, or she'll refuse to set foot in the country again, and I DO love Cape Cod.

I'm big on oompah bands myself:P

My wife is from the flat farm country of the northwest, near Holland. In her part of Germany, Bavarians
are as foreign as Mongolians. The coastline of Cape Cod reminds her of the coastline of Germany's far
northwest, but without the rented beach stalls, beer and fries stands, and wall to wall smokers when
there's nice weather. Besides, on the Cape there is great live music, I get to guest spot on the local
community radio station, and sit playing my 12 string guitar during the break of the local jazz band
in a tiny restaurant on Friday nights. Plus, the whales are friendlier and the water is warmer.

"In her part of Germany, Bavarians are as foreign as Mongolians".

Yeah..Kind of like Texans to Mainers.

Good thing there isn't any coal or natural gas under there.

Interesting...especially in the context of their history.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,758883,00.html

Nothing in the OP or my post said anything about how Germany was perfect. Or about how is was flawed. Why would you need to bring this up?

There are good things going on in the US too. But this article and discussion was about the descent we are experiencing in American life. You want to beat up on the EU, start your own thread.

Is "maybe not" the best you can do to comment on the actual subject of the thread?

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Whereas ours took over the intelligence services, the Republican Party, and then the country under the guise of anti-communism during the Cold War. The Bush family, for instance:

slam, dunk, and whatever else there is. :rofl:


Cher

the fact that Germany and the US did not help Israel much with that because one of the highest officials in post war Germany had held a high office in the 'Jewish Office' working for Eichmann. They absorbed all manner of 'not as famous' Nazis into their post war culture and power structure. We did too. But Germany sure did not get rid of theirs.

Could that be it?

;-)

2 years ago, my son was making 50-60K as a crane operator at a steel mill in Seattle.. Just this week he found a job through a temp agency to work the crane at a recycling center,.,. $9.00 an hour..
He's no longer unemployed, but seriously underemployed:(

an hour living in Glendale or Burbank...or worse, $10 per CLEAN UP DRAWING (final line drawing); those usually take 2-3 hour apiece, so the studios get around the minimum wage laws by freelancing them out at $10 per.

Also, those of us who are self employed never show in unemployment records when we're out of work since we can't apply for unemployment.

he still performs the same work but with an approximate 75% pay cut.

My sympathies to him, btw, and I hope his situation improves soon. That really fucking sucks.

have us believe that $9.00 per hour is too much.

I was in Baden-Wuerttemburg, 12% official unemployment, very good relatively.

Places in the East that had still not recovered from the socialism of the DDR were running 28% despite the billions of DM being poured into it by the West.

Es tut mir lied. Meine Deutch sind nicht so gut.

bist Du auch ein Deutscher. Schön Dich zu finden!

Ich waere sehr stoltz darauf, Deutsche zu sein, wenn es so waere. Ich bin aber eine Amerikanerin, und darauf bin ich auch stoltz. Allerdings, lebte ich fuer 12 Jahre in Berlin -- 6 Jahre vor der Wende, waehrend der Wende, un 6 Jahre danach. Ich hatte eine tolle Zeit in Deutschland. Ich habe die deutsche Sprache dort gelernt, und auch viele tolle Menschen kennengelernt. Ich muss sagen, Deutschland is wie eine zweite Heimat fuer mich.

Zu unserer deutsch-amerikanische freundschaft! :hug:

dass Du nicht "ganz" Deutsch bist, aber hunderprozentig ein Liebhaber von Deutschem.
Das freut mich sehr. Werde meine Augen nach Dir aufhalten. Hauptsächlich treibe ich mich mit den Photographen herum.

:)

Das ist ja ganz richtig! Ich freue mich, dass du das bemerkt hast.

Ich werde auch meine Augen nach Dir aufhalten, Mira!

Bis dann!

:fistbump:

Ich fuhle mich dasselbe.

Ich weiss, zum Beispiel, dass die meisten Engländer und Norweger glauben auch dass wir verrückt sind.

We wallow in provincialism even here on DU.

You can find an "America sucks" article here,

many from other countries, just about every day.:shrug:

:shrug:

if not to applaud the "America sucks" meme?

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

America does indeed suck. (compared to the EU)

insurance in this country sucks...If you want to turn

that into "America sucks", I'm sorry, but I'm

not going to agree and that may be because

many of us ARE working on that (Since FDR, for god's sake)

and also because one CAN get medical care for

without insurance...Unfortunately, you have

to be on the dole, so to speak.

Years ago, a friend of mine had

brain cancer, for fuck's sake, and HE

was taken care of.

This is in NO way to excuse the Corporate Greed that dominates this country and makes health care such a mess..

But it must be noted that Europe and America

have different histories which tended to lead them in one direction or another.

My understanding is that the UK's NHS was instituted after WWII because there was

little in the way of jobs then and at the same time, America was doing really well

and so it was easily affixed to the employment system.



I have to tell you that, I'm part of a website that features many brits living in America.

I made the SAME argument to them about our lousy system as opposed to their good National Health Service and

You would not BELIEVE some of the "disagreement" I got..."the NHS has a LOT of problems", etc.

I was very surprised...Out of about five brits, at least three complained mightily and/or

said they'd prefer our system....I'd be happy to re-post their remarks, if you'd like.

underfund/mandate rules that make the service suck = increased dissatisfaction/support for marketized options.

same gameplan we see in the us

We subsidized many of the benefits that they enjoy today.

I wonder how long Germany would have remained an independent nation if we hadn't been watching the Fulda Gap since the Berlin Wall days, until the fall of the Soviet Union.

This isn't the America of the 1940's or 1950s. They've made it on their own since then and become a powerhouse, economically and socially.

They don't need America to nursemaid them. And they don't need to keep paying tribute to a failing empire.

Our tax dollars spent so they didn't have to; that funding was directed to social issues.

And the facts are that we *did* keep them safe, and spent *our* money to do so. Without American tax dollars, they would have been toast; the Eastern Bloc would have rolled them up.

They got to grow their economy without paying for the bulk of their own defense.

Just think where this economy would be if we didn't set ourselves up as the world's policemen; we would have had medical care for all by 1950.

Can they cut a check for you right now? When does the tribute payment end?

And don't use that medicare shtick with Germans. America has ALWAYS had the money to look after its own people - they just chose NOT to.

They prospered under our military protection, do you deny that?

Just as Japan did.

I don't understand your response.

I'm not angry about it, as you seem to be for some reason.


But the fact remains, without the support of this country Germany would not be the country they are today, nor would they be enjoying that prosperity.

If I'm wrong, I apologize.

:hide:


















:rofl:

:rofl:

;)

British would still be speaking Anglo-Saxon ;)

And don't get me started on those bloody Normans with their "Mouton" and "Booerf" ...







/sarcasm if I need to say it

HWÆT, WE GAR-DEna in geardagum,
þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!
oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

(Opening lines of "Beowulf" :)

Alright, already, Beowulf was a Dane, so he doesn't count :)

Her wæs Gypeswic gehergod, ⁊ æfter þæm swyðe raþe wæs Byrihtnoð ealdorman ofslagan æt Meldune.

AS Chronicle,

You can stil get some sense from it, especially the last phrase.

The first is that, for a number years, rebuilding Germany itself was a much higher priority than developing it into a military powerhouse. The second is that the German system of social benefits, investment in human capital and capital investment was not achieved through diversion of funds that "ought to have" gone to the military. The Germans have constructed a more sane society based, in part, upon their actually having experienced fascism: we did not, and so have let folks who are essentially fascist take over US economic policy. This is why Germany has a textile industry, with good wages and benefits, and we do not. Moreover, since the end of the SED rule in the former GDR, the Germans have cut their military expenditures by nearly half: we have not. They instituted a health care system that covers everyone at a lower cost: we have not. Much of what is right about Germany today could have been right about America, too, had we not headed down the dead-end path of Reaganomics.

"The first is that, for a number years, rebuilding Germany itself was a much higher priority than developing it into a military powerhouse"


That was not entirely by choice, was it?...After Hitler and WWII, they were, in fact, expressly forbidden from building a military as anything other than a defense force within Germany.

"The German system of social benefits, investment in human capital and capital investment was not achieved through diversion of funds that "ought to have" gone to the military".

That's a matter of opinion...They could have created a collective defense that by itself, could have stood up to the Soviet Union, but they declined, choosing instead to depend on the US, as did other NATO allies.

This is not to claim that America didn't "overdo" it...They certainly did, and, IMO, continue to do so...That being said, Germany and the rest of Western Europe could not have built the socially beneficent societies they have without depending on the US to pay for the bulk of their defense.

The Morgenthau Plan of 1946 specifically precluded the possibility of a remilitarized Germany. At that time, the goal of the US was to reduce Germany to a deindustrialized, pacifistic state. Was Germany free to conduct an independent defense and foreign policy in 1949. or thereafter? Certainly not. The admission of the FRG into NATO was not the result of the restoration of German sovereignty as it was a condition of it. By the time Germany was truly free to conduct its own foreign policy, let's say under Brandt, they were already constrained by their treaty obligations. At that point, the Germans were not really free to ask the Americans to leave, nor were the Americans themselves free to leave: all the western allies were in agreement that, if WWIII were to be fought, it would be fought in Germany. The fact is that the Germans did "stand up" to the Soviet Union. After rearmament, they fielded twelve divisions. The FRG was allowed to reconstitute its military as the Bundesweher only so long as such as program was seen to be in the strategic interest of the US, France and the UK.

If you want to credit the US for the social democracy that evolved in Germany, it would be better to look to the influence the US had in drawing up the Grundgesetz. A good place to start would be Thomas Geoghegan's "Were You Born on the Wrong Continent" (The New Press, 2010).

I might also add that, if not for the contribution of a single German officer, von Steuben, there might not have been any United States of America in the first place.

writing something of historical significance.

The US is a fascist state, imho. Corporations working hand-in-hand with the gov't. The People...who cares? If they can't afford to CONSUME, kill them.

someone who can impersonate a Tourette's Syndrome

sufferer would recognize anything like that?


SUCH class.:rofl:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

The previous poster tried to make an actual adult comment, and you go for a silly and childish ad hominem.

BTW The Germans had to live in a de facto occupied nation under our tutelage for a few decades and they were the first line of defense in the cold war. They had to repay the Marshall Loans, and they were one of our biggest post-war markets which led to our prosperity in the 50s and 60s. The US probably has made far more money off Germany than we ever spent "defending" them.

Next thing I assume you will want to ask reparations from black people for the room and board owed during colonial times.

The previous poster's ideas simply jibe with your silly non-historic illusions.


Remember, honey..Ignore is your friend.

It's completely asinine of me to write in complete paragraphs with complete sentences without hitting return key at the end of each full stop.

Germany was spending around 3% of their GDP on defense, which is more than adequate. Given the size of their economy, this ranked them in the top ten on military spending for most of the period in question.

Germany did not have a large navy during the Cold War because it's for power projection, something no one wanted to get them in the business of doing.

I suppose you would have had them reconstitute the U-Boot fleet?

America's presence in Germany was not some sort of handout that enabled social democracy.

It was not the product of altruism, but was done in accord with the strategic interests of the US, at least according to the people who decide such things here.

Which is why there are still American forces stationed there today.

"It's completely asinine of me to write in complete paragraphs with complete sentences without hitting return key at the end of each full stop"

But I think you know that your oh so FABULOUS use of the written language, lol

is not the reason.


No one said America's presence in Germany was a "handout"...Are you faulting them for self-interest?

I really don't know of any countries who act on pure altruism, do you?

That being as it may, they were able to build the society they now have

in large part BECAUSE of our military protection.

Why is that so hard to admit?

LOL, no.

Also, none of that would invalidate the observation that we are becoming a nation of sociopathic monsters.

"Also, none of that would invalidate the observation that we are becoming a nation of sociopathic monsters".

A tad hyperbolic, I'd say...that sounds more

like Hitler's Germany?:rofl:

LOL, no.

Also, none of that would invalidate the observation that we are becoming a nation of sociopathic monsters.

Most people won't believe something if it does not sound like something they already believe.

I used to think that the vast majority of Germans had no idea about the killing programs the Nazis impleemented after Wannsee. After all, the killing centers were located almost exclusively in occupied Poland. And there was no free flow of information

I used to believe that, albeit with some misigivings.

But then I read Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executionsers" and the scales, shall we say, fell from my eyes. I now believe that almost the entire pre-1945 adult population of Germany stands implicated in the Holocaust, excluding the Dem Socialists, the Communists, the Jews and other untermenschen.

Funny how a single well-written book can so profoundly alter one's belief system.

At any rate, I think this discussion of Germany's Wirtschaftswunder (Rebuilding) ignores the contributions of non-Germans, specifically immigrants to Germany from the Middle East. I remember being horrified to see graffitt that said 'Turks raus' (Turks Get Out) when I was there, as the 'Turks' referenced (basically anyone immigrating into Germany from the Middle East) were a large reason German civil society is so wonderful today.

Just an observation from left field.

As for the hateful graffiti, you can find bigots all over the world. But few countries give them a "fair and balanced" news channel like we do.

publication. But AFAIK Goldhagen's central thesis -- that the majority of adult Germans both knew of and approved of the Holocaust -- still stands. I may be wrong, though, as I do not keep up with the scholarship the way I did when in college.

I don't base my 'historical perspective' on a single book, at least I hope not. My post was in response to Alcibiades' observation that "Most people won't believe something if it does not sound like something they already believe." I threw my example out there to show how influential a single book can be in changing one's beliefs about a question that is admittedly, for most people, pretty arcane but still important to historians of the time.

I can say that I lived in Germany for many, many years. It was interesting to talk to the older generation about what people knew vs. what they did not know. I got varying answers to that question and over time began to sort of "categorize" them -- such as rural dweller vs city dweller. Certainly the city-folk in Germany were more aware of what was happening. They just knew intuitively. But one shouldn't forget that the Germans were living in a dictatorial society, so they didn't discuss it with anyone. That does not mean that they were complicit. Fear is a great way to control the masses. One should also not forget, that there were many brave souls in Germany who put their own lives (and the lives of their loved ones) at risk in order to help others. "Schindler's List" is a great example of that. I'm not sure if you have ever seen the film, "Europa, Europa". If not, it is quite remarkable and true of how a young Jewish boy survives the holocaust. Definitely worth watching.

More importantly, though, I have profound respect for the vigilance that I saw in Germany to prevent such atrocities from occurring again in their country. Bigots are everywhere, but the Germans do all they can to squelch it.

generations of Germans have been positively anti-fascistic. I met young Germans when I was in my 20s and 30s (some 25 years ago) who were likewise in their 20s and 30s and their sense of shame at their country's history was palpable. Americans who were of age during Operation Shocking and Awful could stand to learn something from them.

The White Rose movement (led by the Scholl siblings) is a bright testament to the power of youth as truth tellers. When I think about the courage of Hans and Sophie Scholl, I shudder to imagine how I might respond were I faced with a similar horror and threat of the same fate that the Scholls received. Although i was physically assaulted and my car repeatedly vandalized during the Bush Junta, I never felt like I would have to endure a Gestapo interrogation for expressing my views, not that some Repukes would have had a problem with it, mind you.

That's good!

:toast:

"Most people won't believe something if it does not sound like something they already believe".


Correct...Now if only you realized that the truism includes you.

and Germany's social programs were not some post-WW2 invention. The foundations for the services provided by today's German social democracy were originally instituted in the late 1800s by Otto von Bismarck. Which history most Americans are utterly unaware of, which is not surprising.

Bismarck!?! That's waaaaayyy to much to ask!

;)

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and none for the poster who flagrantly

violates the rules by telling me "You suck"

and that I'm "an American sucker"?


Gee..That WOULD be the height of hypocrisy and bias, wouldn't it?

Having the temerity to not "fall in line"?

And it's "Dummkopf", not "dumpkopf".

and you say this because you, of course

know "most Americans" or are

privy to statistics

on the matter?


No, I didn't think so :eyes:


Get over yourself, honey,

your elitist bs is

stinking up the thread

A social program to take care of sick silver miners was instituted in the late 1500's in Austria. I had the opportunity to visit one of their mines. So yes, social services have been around a lot longer than people realize.

It's all about resentment, if not outright hostility,

Ikonoklast...Some here are positively dripping with it.:puke:

Worth trying anyway.

From your own mouth comes a perfect description of your activities on this thread.

but, honestly...how well received do you think I'd be

if I went on a UK discussion board

and offered them my "American perspective"

on their issues?

Not very well, I'd say and I arrive

at that opinion, not simply by conjecture

but by experience...Experience, I might add,

that did not even CONTAIN criticism of UK policy,

customs, social life, or anything.

Funny...all I had to do was mention being American

and the vitriol appeared, attacking me AS an American

on the Timesonline.com...The attack was swift and vicious

and contained nothing on the "content"

of my post, just the "poster".

No one else "defended" me, either.

Comparatively speaking, I'd say you guys have it

pretty good here.

I hope so, because I'm laughing.


It speaks "VOLUMES"?!

Are you a Drama major, FourScore?...I'd consider it were I you, Lol.

But back to "YOU GUYS"!!!!..A hideous, and unimaginable insult NOT to be tolerated

in our uber pc discouse!

even if the postee apparently couldn't care less

and took it as intended, lol.


FourScore, I'm going to do something daring now..

and lay down a challenge

If you're not too unsettled by the "volumes"

I doubtless "unleashed"

by the invidious phrase "You guys".

Please answer this question:

How do you feel about the expression

"Geez"?

Does it meet with your approval?

or does it again, "speak volumes"

about...something.

But..

Before answering, remember this:

That word was uttered by someone..

(drum roll, please)

who agrees with you

and not me.


Take your time, as I'm sure

it will make ALL

the difference.:rofl:

And we wouldn't be the same country without France's intervention in the Revolution. But I doubt that comes up in many conversations dealing with the state of America today... seems at best, a tangential and almost irrelevant point, yes?

:shrug:

The terms of the surrender at the end of WWII denied any military beyond self-defence forces to the former Axis powers. Cold War geopolitics and the fear of Russian aggression drove American and NATO strategy in maintaining bases and troops in Germany. American involvement there was purely dictated by political interest and the terms of the postwar settlement. I must say that the attitude reflected here bears an ugly similarity to the whole "shut up, France, we saved your asses in WWII" yahooism of c. 2002-2003 around the time of the Iraq war.

with "the attitude", expressed here, but some of that attitude is justified, although not in reaction

to the Iraq war.

By and large, America DID save Western Europe's collective ass in WWII and although

I can understand their discomfort with the fact, honest citizens of those countries admit it.

the Soviets beat the Germans. The major turning points of the war against Germany came in 1942 before there was a single American soldier fighting in Europe or North Africa. If the US had never gotten militarily involved in Europe in WWII, Germany would still have been defeated. It may have taken longer, but it still would have happened.

beat the Germans in Eastern Europe, "saving" them for communism.

As far as Europe goes, we had this thing called "The Pacific" to fight in.

The Axis powers MAY have been defeated in Europe

but Europe was not at all willing to "test"

the theory at the time...Churchill was all but begging

for our help.

In any case, however they might have dealt with Germany,

it's quite doubtful that they could have defeated Germany AND Japan.

Ikonoklast

Most of the US dollars you have spend on The Fulda gap and the defence of West Germany under the cold war, was repaid by West Germany many times over, West Germany had to pay both reparation for the war itself, but also for the payment of reparation going back to World War One.. Who by the way, Germany paid in full late last year! And I doubt that US would have spend a dime in Western Germany, if it was not for the benefit of the US itself.. You cam complain whatever you like about the "umbrella" West Germany was living under from 1945 to 1991, when the cold war ended and peace breake out in Europe finaly. But the fact on the ground are that US was paying all this dollar, becouse it was in US interst to do so. West Germany had been a nasty battlefield if the Soviets and the satelite states in East Europe desided to ever go forward to conquer the Western half of Europe. The fact is, that the money US had spend on the defence of Western Europe, and Germany in special, have been repaid many times over, as Germany and the Western Europe part of Europe, more or less was depended on US aid, and US hardware/knowlegde for many many years.. If we count in all this, the bill if you wil, wil be like US earned a lot of money when they was helping to rebuild west Germany and most of the Western Part of Europe after world war two...

But yes, that is correct that US was making the posible for West Germany to rebuild and build up one of the strongest economies in the world, in the shaddow of posible destruction by nuclear war.. FOr many decades until the end of the cold war, it was really a fear in Western Germany, that a exange of war between US and Soviet would ruin everything West Germany had manage to rebuild after the war.. West Germany, and the population really did a hell of a job, rebuild everything that was in ruins in 1945.. A decade and a half after the war, most of the ruins was rebuild, and germany was able to be a player in european affairs again.. Not bad for a country, who was totaly destroyed after world war two if you ask me.. And most of it, was becouse the german pepole was not sitting down and cry after the war ended, but desided it was time to rebuild.. Even a few monts after the war ended, the starting of rebuiling was under way.. And it was in many cases, the woman and children who had to do the hard work, the men was inprisoned as the allied forces was not sure what to do with them after the war..

One of the reasons West Germany managed to rebuild that fast, was as you pointed out the bulk of the forces was US soldiers who defended the Fulda Gap, and also the inter-german border. But to be honest. West Germany was not ALLOWED to have a army, a navy and a Airforce before 1955, when the new Budensarmy was made posible.. Before that, West Germany was not ALLOWED to have military forces, and therefore had the ability to use the money they had, to rebuild the sivilian sector.. And its paid out as West Germany in 1955 was able to put togheter a decent army, navy and airforce. And also had the money to rebuild the sivilian sector, who made West Germany what it was, and is today as Germany...

If US had used a little less on military spending, and little more on the sivilian sector, true, US would have had medical care for all by now.. But the fact is that US government are spending a hell of money on totaly unessesary moeny on programs who maybe never be able to lift of the ground. Even the smal "starwars" program mr Bush was in favour off, are a program who posible never wil be able to defend US against rouge states with the ability to send ICBMs tipped with nuclear weapons.. At best, it is a program who is inmature the next 20 or so year.. In worst cases, it can never be used to the promised use, and a rouge state wil indeed send a nuclear tipped ICBM over the polar ice... (Hopefully they never wil!)

When you use more than 700 billion dollar you have to lose in one or another side.. An US is really loosing it.... Cut the Pentagon budget with 25 percent, and use it to rebuild your shattered infrastrucure, and US wil again be the power it once was..

Not a declining superpower

Diclotican

Thank you Diclotican.

:fistbump:

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I find you are lowering an intelligent discussion thread down to the lowest denominator by mocking posters for poor grammar or spelling errors when the substance of their posts are genuine and very well thought out.

I have no idea how many languages you speak. Nor do I care. My point is, when a more international discussion is occurring, and clearly english is not the native tongue for many of those partaking in the discussion, then it is exceptionally rude to call them out for simple spelling or grammar errors. If your are bi- or multilingual, then you should know this already. Hell, even if english is your only language, who made you the grammar police? Personally, I don't come to DU for english lessons, I come to discuss politics.

Quite honestly, I fear that your posts have taken on a tone of belligerence. Perhaps I should inquire about that with the moderators.

What YOU missed is the stupidity of knocking people for qualities

or the lack of such, when you have NO idea about them, like languages and you do care, dear..You mentioned that "we" could

"all laugh" at what you supposed was my inability to speak another language..Now

you have to backtrack..duh.


As for "who made you grammar police"?....Well, I don't know!

I could as well ask "Who made you "opinion police".?

You're entitled to "enquire" about whatever you wish, dear..but the fact is,

you're probably just a little out of your depth...and Remember: "Ignore" is your friend.

errors can make a post (or any material) difficult to read, causing content to be lost because of poor presentation. Consider a speech by an inarticulate person. S/he may have a sound mind and great ideas or logic but, again, content is missed, dismissed or ignored because of poor presentation.

Grammar and spelling do make a difference.

I found the post difficult to read and almost bypassed it precisely because of the writing, but I persevered and appreciated the substance.

I do not know it for a fact, but based on his post and the fact that he lives in Norway, I am assuming that he is not American. Perhaps he is, but doesn't have the opportunity to speak or write in english very often. I did not find the grammar or spelling to be so bad that I wouldn't read it. Especially in a thread where many non-Americans are posting their views and errors are popping up from time to time.

Yes, grammar and spelling can matter, but I do not think a person deserves to be mocked when they are writing in a language that is not their native tongue. I thought that is what was happening. Sending the person a PM to inform them of their errors is helpful. A public flogging is not.

I am glad that you appreciated the substance of the post. I did as well.

FourScore

Yes I live in Norway, a small but rich country in the north of Europe.. And Im afraid that I can't write og speak the language as I hope for.. But I understand most of english rather good.. I would guess the "spelling police" her on DU,would have had some troubles writing or speaking norwigian if they ever got here.. But that's okay, most norwigian can speak or write english better than many others can write or speak norwigian, so it goes around..

Diclotican

I am sure it is a rich and wonderful language. I hope you continue to enlighten us with your norwegian perspective here on DU. Don't let the disrupters get you down. If you look, you will see you are not the only one who has been insulted in this thread. Unfortunately, because I think otherwise it is an excellent discussion.

FourScore

I know;) Im not the only one who are been attaced in this tread.. So I dosen't care to mutch about it.. if they only grief is about my spelling, then Im off to something really good here;)

I belive it to be a rich language, maybe not the most wonderful language, but it works;).. And I hope my perspective can elighten some at least.. Not everyone but some;)

Diclotican

:pals:

good posts!

whilst others keep theirs open

Odd, particularly as there need be no information that could be sensitive.

intaglio

It's what others would say, a smoking gun:P... And is telling a lot about the person i guess...

Diclotican

whathehell

Wel, I have just one thing to say.. English is far from my native language.. But even tho my gramar sucks, I guess you get what I wrote.. Even tho it was a tad bad:P

Diclotican

nt

Of course, some folks are immune to historical facts.

Alcibiades

Facts is a dangrous thing for some folks.. As long as they can spew their "hate" in whatever fascion they dosen't care, but facts is facts. Regardness of the wiewpoint

Diclotican

was rebuilt as an industrial nation with (at that time) state-of-the-art technology. The same is true of Japan. The funding was through grants from the U.S. that were not required to be repaid. Of course, the trade and the flow of technology and industrial materials from the U.S. greatly enhanced America's wealth and prosperity in the post-WWII years. The Allied victors imposed upon both nations restrictions designed to prohibit them from becoming future global war powers. Thus they were able to focus on industrial development and infrastructure rebuilding without the burden of military/defense expenditures that the U.S. was dealing with in its Cold War with the Soviet Union.

This is not to diminish Germany's industrial prowess and its dedication to a society that provides for the welfare and wellbeing of all of its citizens. The U.S. has chosen to become the enforcement arm of the International Corporate and Financial Elites and has abdicated its collective responsibilities to its citizens in the process.

Recommend.

Well done, bertman!

bertman

Some of the Marshall plan, was grants, some of it was given as free loans, as curtisy of the USA.. Some was loans, on a 50 year down payment plan. And West Germany, with the rest of the Western Europe, got it all, free loans, grants and loans with a 50 year down payment plan.. Germany managed to rebuild with the state of the art technology of the 1950s, and made it posible for West Germany not just to rebuild what was bombed, but also to be one of the most important industry nations in West Europe.. The same happend with Japan after world war two, it started from scratch, and was by 1960 one of the biggest industry nations in the world.. And also thanks to the US pressence in Japan and Germany, the tho country's could save a lot of money on military spending, and use it to build country's that have a welfare that most americans just dream about.. In the german case it was becouse the rest of Europe had a fear of germany been to powerfull, a german with full industry, and the ability to build a mighty army would be a nightmare for the rest of europe - germany dosen't want to get to war again, and shoose to use their industry power, to build whatever else the world was in need of.. Rather than spend a lot of ressourses on war...

And it worked, as West Germany, and then after 1991 Germany are one of the most stable, democratic country in Europe, and one of the big players in EU.. And even after the Easten part of Germany was once again with the rest of Germany, they shoose to build DOWN their military, rather than expand it.. Germany have still the ability to be one of the biggest military forces in Europe, and in the world.. But have shoosen, by their own will to no do it..

Diclotican

I appreciate your thoughtful post.

suffragette

Thank you :hi:

Diclotican

Always happy to see you add your perspective to the discussion.
:hi:

Trust me, America prospered quite well from the occupation of Germany.

You make it sound like Germany became the great country that it is thanks solely to us, and at our own personal expense. We did it all for them. The Good Americans. That's just like the people who claim Ronald Reagan brought down the Berlin Wall. It is so factually wrong, such a typical example of American egotism, that it would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Especially to find it here on DU.

because it goes against the wishes of the insurance industry and the for profit health care system.

Keeping them safe was in our national interest. I don't see it so much as doing Germany a favor-- that was merely a by-product of the US investing in defense to better maintain our national interests and the status-quo of the post-war bi-polar world.

For fifteen years after the war, Germany was limited to a skeleton army-- by international law they could invest in armament-- our decision, not theirs, ergo not a favor. :shrug:

No "tribute" needed, Canuckistanian.:eyes:

becoming a powerhouse, as you put it? Precisely because WE gave the aid to rebuild them after WWII. Without our financial and logistical aid and support, without the Marshall Plan, they, as a completely destroyed country, simply would not have been able to do it.

The article could just as well have been written by Swedes--universal health care, dental, everything. Yet Sweden didn't have any losses during World War II, and therefore no other country subsidized them.

the german people had nothing to do with it. DUde, you really do not know what you are saying.

Or how long Austria-Hungary would have survived without the Gendarme of Europe to watch over the peace. :shrug:

We decided to invest in guns, giving them the opportunity to invest in butter. Better that than investing in even more guns, yes?

:)

the resurgence of nationalism is evident throughout the continent.

get it headed back in the progressive direction that has existed for most of the era since WWII. :)

The right certainly never gives up trying to divide the continent and its people into "us" vs "them" groups, even though they hadn't had much success until the bush-created global great recession. Economic troubles always seem to benefit the right.

Perhaps they should be a little more minful of their own affairs,

rather than going the knee jerk America sucks route.

that ours has their own news channel - Fox. The Europeans understand the danger of giving them their own news channel. They tend to fight it in their press.

and certainly not by Germany...Sorry.:eyes:

of the past, like the British and the Spanish, etc.

Meanwhile, maybe we should wait

until your country beomes a super power

Then, we'll revisit the subject.

Nazi thing still makes me wonder just how crazy they were. Germany was clearly the craziest country of the 20th century. Maybe we will wind up being the craziest of the 21st.

Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge had to have been the craziest country of the 20th century.

Nazi Germany was just a close second. The difference is that the Nazis wanted to take over the world
where the Khmer Rouge was content to kill off its own population first.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100087179/its-not-just-the-labour-party-%E2%80%93-the-left-is-in-meltdown-all-over-europe/


An ironic article from todays Telegraph, apparently those enlightened Europeans don't care for diversity at all.

You mean...Europe isn't necessarily "heaven"

as opposed to our "hell"?

Step carefully, sufrommich...You're coming close to Heresy!!:rofl:

another reason why this country is so pathetic... too many are too sensitive to criticism, even if it is true.

too many willing to do the hair shirt and ashes

bit even if criticisms are flawed, or at least

questionably made in light of their own, often similar problems.

Do a google search of Right Wing Europe..Hopefully

you'll gain some perspective and

a broader understanding of the word "pathetic".

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Umm..It's "American" and "whiners".

Not to put to fine a point on it, but being so "proud" and all, I'd think you'd learn to

use the language a bit better...OTOH, perhaps your clearly roused

emotions have gotten the better of you.

Your "critique" if one can call it that, is the true thing that is "pathetic"...

If I wanted, in your inimical style, to "keep shit the same" I'd be on Free Republic

instead of Democratic Underground.

As for "thin skinned" it sounds like you are the one with said condition...Not "secure" enough

to take criticism or another perspective?


Sounds like it's your "pride" that is fragile, FH...and guess what?

I don't have to "wave the flag"...Like some others here,

I just refuse to shit on it.

people like the one you responded to are probably young enough that they don't remember a more balanced pre-Reagan America. They've been marinating in Nationalistic propaganda since birth. They've been taught that any criticism against their Nation is an attack against THEM PERSONALLY - though they are free to attack the government and all government institutions except the military at any time. Apparently the system of government that America was founded on has nothing to do with the Country itself. The Country is themselves and the military, nothing more. It doesn't even occur to them that wealthy corporate owning individuals are manipulating and using them in the guise of "patriotism"; or that they have become happy foot soldiers for the further enrichment of the uber rich by allowing everything in that article to happen.

many countries have had the same attitudes and look where that got them. Germany is a perfect example...

the poster he "responded to" is me and you really missed the mark

if you're trying to paint me with that young "freeper" brush.

As a matter of fact, I'm sixty one

years old and WELL remember the more "balanced" country we had

Maybe that's why I'm less inclined to bash the entire nation

indiscriminately, throwing out unqualified

insults, sucking up every self-serving euro criticism...Hell, you

can't even try and "broaden" a critique by offering some

historical fact or qualifier without people

like you, in fact, attacking my "credentials" as a progressive

and inferring, if not outright saying, that I'm a "troll".

Hell, if I was happy with the way things were, I wouldn't have been here

for the last three years...but there HAS to be some "balance",

at least for me..I do NOT hate this country

and like MOST people of EVERY nation, I believe,

I have a measured amount of pride in it.

Do you know ANYONE from another country

who would humbly "eat up" critiques, even "legitimate" ones, from Americans

or other nationalities?...I do not.

A very few might..Some others might grudgingly "admit" to faults,

but many more would gladly hand you your ass

on a platter were you so "arrogant" as to critique their countries.

Why should we be so different in that respect?

Were people here "bashing" other countries

the way they do their own, all hell would break loose.

Simply put: Neither me nor any other DUer is a "troll" because they're

unwilling to eat every bit of the "America Sucks" shit sandwich

that's handed them. Period.

utterly and completely without question. Others prefer to love their Country as one adult loves another; we take her to AA instead of letting her drive drunk or die from alcohol poisoning.

of adulthood.

Some of us grow up.

It's about being overrun by immigrants who come to take jobs and enjoy the generous social services and quality of life that Europeans have spent decades developing for themselves and their children at great cost and effort.

Modern communications technologies have allowed "everybody" to find out what life is like most everywhere on the planet, and modern transportation has enabled "everybody" to get out of the hell hole they are stuck in and move to a "nice place with jobs" for basically the cost of a plane or train ticket.

How does a country become diverse without immigrants?

Europe is a relatively small continent. There is simply not enough space physically or economically for unlimited "hordes" of people from other parts of the (third) world to move there and enjoy all the benefits of European life. Many have already been assimilated over the past few decades but, again, space is not unlimited.

immigrants coming into their countries just like the rest of the world does.

But over time the numbers start to add up and some people naturally want it to stop. It's similar to the illegal immigrant issue in the U.S. but the U.S. has a lot more open spaces and sprawling cities that can keep expanding as necessary.

Good thing Germany requires German proficiency and self supporting status as well as an 8 year residency requirement for 'them' to become citizens, no?
You say 'overrun'. That is why I have to remember that 20 years before my first visit to Germany, they were shoving my people into ovens and practicing an industrial form of genocide the world had never seen. With that history, words like 'overrun' take on all sorts of vibes that some minorities would be foolhardy to forget.

would naturally be for "them" to stay in their own countries, develop rich social services and a better quality of life for themselves and their children, control the size of their populations, and live happily ever after. Europeans always lead the world in foreign aid per capita which would theoretically help "them" to do those kinds of things. The U.S. is well down on the list.

Your crap about the ovens is wildly inappropriate and I am placing you on ignore for it.

right wing views of immigration.

If you said that in regard to America

They'd call you a Right Wing Racist.


Funny, that.:eyes:

health system. My point is that the more Europe begins to look like the U.S. ( i.e.diverse populations living together) the more it resembles the U.S. ,their right wing behaves exactly as ours does. It's not a European problem, it's a human problem and they are no better or worse than us.

as they do here. Yes, all European countries (including Germany) have some very (even ultra) right-wing political group, but they get challenged regularly on TV and in the press. We have Fox News, which the ultra-right uses as a microphone. It's very different.

There are ignorant, uneducated, bigoted people all over the world. But how a society deals with them is key.

Actually the ultra-right uses a megaphone. Our side? We get to speak in a whisper.

being and "American sucker" the way someone else here

has me...If you can believe, she's still not been deleted

for a rather flamboyant personal attack.:eyes:

because I'm sure Germany and the other western democracies would simply

LOVE to hear America's criticism of them, right?


Please...Most people are sensitive about outsiders critiques...Get real.