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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:38 PM
Original message
Chomsky's pronouncements about Osama Bin Laden are stupid and ignorant
If only Hitch would stop beating around the bush and tell us how he really feels.... :D

http://www.slate.com/id/2293541/">Chomsky's Follies: The professor's pronouncements about Osama Bin Laden are stupid and ignorant.

by Christopher Hitchens

Anybody visiting the Middle East in the last decade has had the experience: meeting the hoarse and aggressive person who first denies that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center and then proceeds to describe the attack as a justified vengeance for decades of American imperialism. This cognitive dissonance—to give it a polite designation—does not always take that precise form. Sometimes the same person who hails the bravery of al-Qaida's martyrs also believes that the Jews planned the "operation." As far as I know, only leading British "Truther" David Shayler, a former intelligence agent who also announced his own divinity, has denied that the events of Sept. 11, 2001, took place at all. (It was apparently by means of a hologram that the widespread delusion was created on television.) In his recent article for Guernica magazine, however, professor Noam Chomsky decides to leave that central question open. We have no more reason to credit Osama Bin Laden's claim of responsibility, he states, than we would have to believe Chomsky's own claim to have won the Boston Marathon.

I can't immediately decide whether or not this is an improvement on what Chomsky wrote at the time. Ten years ago, apparently sharing the consensus that 9/11 was indeed the work of al-Qaida, he wrote that it was no worse an atrocity than President Clinton's earlier use of cruise missiles against Sudan in retaliation for the bomb attacks on the centers of Nairobi and Dar es Salaam. (I haven't been back to check on whether he conceded that those embassy bombings were also al-Qaida's work to begin with.) He is still arguing loudly for moral equivalence, maintaining that the Abbottabad, Pakistan, strike would justify a contingency whereby "Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush's compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic." (Indeed, equivalence might be a weak word here, since he maintains that, "uncontroversially, crimes vastly exceed bin Laden's.") So the main new element is the one of intriguing mystery. The Twin Towers came down, but it's still anyone's guess who did it. Since "April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it 'believed' that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan," no evidence has been adduced. "Nothing serious," as Chomsky puts it, "has been provided since."

Chomsky still enjoys some reputation both as a scholar and a public intellectual. And in the face of bombardments of official propaganda, he prides himself in a signature phrase on his stern insistence on "turning to the facts." So is one to assume that he has pored through the completed findings of the 9/11 Commission? Viewed any of the videos in which the 9/11 hijackers are seen in the company of Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri? Read the transcripts of the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called "20th hijacker"? Followed the journalistic investigations of Lawrence Wright, Peter Bergen, or John Burns, to name only some of the more salient? Acquainted himself with the proceedings of associated and ancillary investigations into the bombing of the USS Cole or indeed the first attempt to bring down the Twin Towers in the 1990s?
Advertisement

With the paranoid anti-war "left," you never quite know where the emphasis is going to fall next. At the Telluride Film Festival in 2002, I found myself debating Michael Moore, who, a whole year after the attacks, maintained that Bin Laden was "innocent until proved guilty" (and hadn't been proven guilty). Except that he had, at least according to Moore one day after the attacks, when he wrote that: "WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden! Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!" So, innocent unless tainted by association with Langley, Va., which did seem to have some heartland flying schools under surveillance before 2001 but which seemed sluggish on the uptake regarding them. For quite some time, in fact, the whole anti-Bush "narrative" involved something rather like collusion with the evil Bin Laden crime family, possibly based on mutual interests in the oil industry. So guilty was Bin Laden, in fact, that he was allowed to prepare for a new Pearl Harbor on American soil by a spineless Republican administration that had ignored daily briefings on the mounting threat. Gore Vidal was able to utter many croaking and suggestive lines to this effect, hinting at a high-level betrayal of the republic......

Read More: http://www.slate.com/id/2293541/
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Ramulux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is some bullshit
He never actually refutes anything Chomsky says and just sort of acts puzzled as to why Chomsky would say such things.

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Sometimes, what some people say is so transparently ridiculous that it is self-refuting. n/t
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sibelian Donating Member (543 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. Absolutely.

Much of the article has nothing to do with anything Chomsky actually says.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hitchens critques Chomsky... now that's a laugh
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:45 PM by ixion
:rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. And you
are not worth my time.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I would suspect that...
the only person who is "worth your time", is someone who uncritically agrees with you.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Wow... an ironic statement
since I kept insisting that we stick to the topic and you kept ignoring that very simple request.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. How would that be an...
"ironic statement"??
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. It implies we've disagreed at some point, or that I demand you agree with me.
Edited on Mon May-09-11 07:01 PM by ixion
We haven't, and I don't.

You refuse to actually discuss a topic, and I don't demand that you agree with me when engaged in debate. Agreement (or lack thereof) has never even been on the radar. ;)
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. "You refuse to actually discuss a topic"
Actually, I don't.

You go first.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I'm sure we'll see each other around
:toast:
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Oh, I see...
so you don't want to debate after all.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. rofl... talking to you is like talking to a Monty Python skit
:rofl:

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Still avoiding debate...
I see.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. ...
:rofl:

I already started. You never even bothered to respond, rather, you chose a personal attack. You know the topic. If you want to try and tell me why Hitchens is more intelligent than Noam Chomsky, feel free. :toast:
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. No kidding
Edited on Mon May-09-11 04:58 PM by themadstork
Does Hitch have even a shred of intellectual inegrity left? The guy's a ranty buffoon.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hitchens was a war-monger from the git-go. Believed 100% in Iraqi WMD's No apologies since.
I don't recall.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Chomsky is valuable as a "gateway drug" into leftist thought
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:48 PM by alcibiades_mystery
He clears the way for real analysis to begin, and is in this way a really good primer for intro-level leftism. It's why Chomsky is popular among college sophomores. The problem is when Chomsky becomes the *final* version of analysis. At that point, thought hardens into dogma, and people make no more progress. Chomsky's leftism is the kind that must be absorbed and overcome for real leftism to take hold. Unfortunately, this never happens for some.

That said, Hitchens is himself a simple contrarian and in the last ten years a snarling warmonger, so I wouldn't take his position as definitive either.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. That is a Good Way to Phrase It
I like Chomsky, and have read a dozen of his books. But his take always seems to be so knee-jerk anti-US that it just seems hard to take it seriously after awhile.

But Americans are so used to hearing the pro-government version of history and current events that hearing the US described just like any other country is jarring and unsettling. It's a very good antidote to the public school of history, and Chomsky covers a lot of material that tends to be ignored out of embarrassment or some other reason. But by itself it's not complete.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. What you say is interesting
I haven't read dozens of books from him but what I've read he seemed to be telling the truth about the US rather than "anti-US". For example, if I were to talk about the Contras, some may think I'm "slamming America". Like I said I haven't dozens of books. I think what you say in the second paragraph is the kind of stuff I read.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Yeah. I think he tries to compensate for the MSM's blindspots moreso than give the anti-US position.
And imo it's a worthy cause. Would anyone else even bother to mention the Sept 11 Chile coup, at all? There's an entire shadow history of the US that Americans are unwittingly shielded from.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
50. Arundhati Roy also mentioned 9-11-71 in one of her books, if memory serves.
Roy's point was that history did not begin on Sept 11, 2001.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Chomsky Says He Is Not Anti-American
and for the most part, a lot of what he does is tell the story of US foreign policy from a neutral point of view.

On the other hand, some of what he says does not ring true to me. When he discusses domestic policy, he tends to simplify complex issues, assume that more social spending is always better, and depict US life in a way that I don't recognize. On the Libyan revolution, he seems to be depicting a clearly native grass-roots movement fighting for their lives as being controlled by the Western powers, almost comparable to the Nicaraguan contras. To me those two are worlds apart.

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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. I have wondered about this
Chomsky's takes usually seem to me true/correct in the most general sense, but oftentimes he stops at merely giving the rigid, superficial take on the issue. Has he ever once tried to persuade those that don't already agree with him? It's like he thinks it's enough to get himself on record with the anti-imperialist, non-nationalist (and generally correct) response to whatever. I like it much more when he allows himself a more nuanced analysis. In some of his longer interviews and his transcribed speeches he'll do this, and you can tell he really is quite brilliant. Yet he holds back so often.

At any rate I admire his work ethic. Guy's a total workhorse.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. One thing is certain: The Little Chimp killed
far more people than UBL.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. You mean that sexist warmongering pig is still alive?
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:56 PM by girl gone mad
Pity the alcoholic neo-liberal didn't go out in wave of glory, fighting in that reckless war he so bravely cheered for from the sidelines.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. hahhaha funny you say that about Hitchens but seem so offended by Bin Laden being killed
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Funny that I think Hitchens should have been willing to risk his life for the cause..
he so vehemently supported, rather than waste his final years sauced and exalting Bush on camera? At least he would have died with a shred of dignity.

Bin Laden's assassination is just another nail in the coffin of constitutional democracy. It's been a long time since this nation acted with principle. Why start now? Might makes right, rah, rah, rah!
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. he hasn't supported Bush for a while, he didn't support Bush in 2004
killing bin laden was acting with principle.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hitchins, as usual, is way out of his league.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. The Man Has A Point, Sir
"Even a blind chicken pecks up a little corn."
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Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. But he usually still winds up at KFC.
Blind Chicken, Snitchens. Good analogy.
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sibelian Donating Member (543 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Does he?

What is it?
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Very good.
I gave it a rec but alas....it stayed at zero.

Do you think he'll do Greenwald next?
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. thanks for reminding to unrec this sick crap
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. lol, oh fuck.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. lol... okeedokee... have another drink!
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. I fail to see the contradictions
Edited on Mon May-09-11 04:17 PM by reorg
but making sense hasn't been Hitchens' strong suit in the last ten years. After writing a book about Kissinger, the war criminal, he used 9/11 as an opportunity to change sides and become an apologist for war crimes himself. Well, I guess that's where the money's at:

January 19, 2009 "I still do not wish that Al Gore had beaten George W. Bush in 2000 or that John Kerry had emerged the victor in 2004."

http://www.slate.com/id/2209133/
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Exactly
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Henrydavidthoreau Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. Telegraph says photos were faked
Hitchens seems to base his principles that politicians tend to tell the truth. However the opposite may be true.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html


The head of the CIA admitted yesterday that there was no live video footage of the raid on Osama bin Laden's compound as further doubts emerged about the US version of events.

Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, revealed there was a 25 minute blackout during which the live feed from cameras mounted on the helmets of the US special forces was cut off.

A photograph released by the White House appeared to show President Barack Obama and his aides in the situation room watching the action as it unfolded. In fact they had little knowledge of what was happening in the compound.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
20. It's good to see Chris, period.
lol
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peace4ever Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. that's pretty comical coming from the 'drink-soaked popinjay'
what a tool
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. Unrec for varius and sundry slanders on Michael Moore, Noam
Chomsky, the "paranoid 'anti-war' left," and so on.

What a drunken sot.
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creon Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. Free country
It is a free country; Chomsky can believe and say whatever he likes. For good reason, bad reason or no reason.

If he makes sense at a given time, fine. If he does not make sense ata given time, fine.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
32. The author makes a salient point on the distended convolutions the the far left
go through to justify viewpoints that are out of line with conclusions that a reasoned person would reach.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. RW asshole Christopher Hitchens?
:rofl:
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Puglover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
37. Have another cocktail Chris. n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
41. And Moore claimed bin laden "innocent until proven guilty""!!!!!!!!!!
what kind of commie bullshit is that? Now people are innocent until proven guilty? WTF!!!!!!
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Hah! Warren, my latest modest proposal is that we execute anyone
accused of a capital crime and skip the trials entirely. They're too expensive, too inefficient and just too much work.

Looks like Obama may be giving my modest proposal some due consideration, if Glenn Greenwald can be believed:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/07/awlaki/index.html
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
42. Iraq War supporter Christopher HItchens discusing the "paranoid anti-war left," such as Chomsky,
Gore Vidal, and Michael Moore being posted and cheered on on DU?
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. I was kinda confused by this too. *shrug*
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6000eliot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. He's a drunken buffoon. Why does anyone care what he has to say?
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. seems there are a few here on this thread that do.
good gawd..
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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
43. 'has (he) pored... viewed... read... followed...'
hitchens' questions are misdirected as chomsky was only quoting the authorities
so has the fbi pored... viewed... read... followed...?
what do moore, vidal and some guy in the mideast have in common with chomsky?
the only commonality i find in this piece is all are conflated by hitchens
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
51. He's that Iraq War cheerleader and Bush fan boy...
right? Hitchens believed in WMDs and the goodness of Cheney. So you know, I'd hate to cite him for saying the sky is blue, really. Few have been so vocally incorrect about so many things as Mr Hitchens.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
52. Hitchens said he can't immediately decide whether or not this is an improvement on
on what Chomsky wrote at the time. Oh Mr Hitchen's then take your time before you write, it might help you form
a position with merit.

Instead you attack without substantiating your horse shit and twist usage of what Chomsky actually said..terrible piece.



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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
54. Gin-soaked popinjay
Edited on Mon May-09-11 10:23 PM by Canuckistanian
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
57. I find it amusing that the Kill the Messenger Brigade loves them some rightwingers as their
voices of reason.

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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
60. I don't generally agree with Chomsky or Hitchens often
In this case, Hitchens is making some sense.
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