Pit Bull - The Face of Death

My girlfriend and our Pit mix, VooDoo.

Lots of pit bull threads yesterday. I wanted to recount my story, because even though it's anecdotal, hopefully it can change a mind or two.

We live in Baltimore and there's a pit bull problem in this city. They are a very popular breed here and unfortunately, many of them are used for illegal breeding and/or fighting. There's a lot of pit bull fear here as well, based on breed stereotypes.

Our story is pretty standard. We adopted VooDoo from a local Pit Bull rescue. VooDoo is somewhere between 18 and 28 months old. She was being bred by a pit bull fighting ring in North Carolina. Our rescue thinks that even at her age she had already had a least one litter of puppies. She lived in a three foot by four foot cage, received very little human attention, almost no exercise and was fed and given access to water only sporadically. The first year and a half of her life, for lack of a better term, sucked.

VooDoo came to live with us this past January. We have taken her through a nine week basic obedience class and she's doing good on basics like walking on heel, sit, sit and stay and other simple commands. She still has some trouble when distracted by other people or dogs, but she's much better than when we started. We're still working on come, stand and lay, as these are harder commands to teach. VooDoo is very energetic and loves to see us. We think she has some beagle in her bloodlines, as her "play" bark is kind of a Boooo-Wooooo-Woooo you often hear from beagles. She is jumper, often springing off the ground with all four legs at once and, when excited, prone to "butt scoot" runs around the house. Her tail, which is almost always wagging is a danger to the cat, us and poorly constructed furniture when it's in high-wag mode. our cat, Gato, is still getting used to having an energetic dog in the house but after his initial anxiety has started to warm up to the dog. VooDoo has been a real joy.

VooDoo is not without her problems though. She is not well socialized and sometimes reacts poorly to dogs she doesn't know, especially if she is on leash and the other dog is not. She also has a tendency to "guard" her pack (me and the girlfriend) and doesn't know how to react to other animals. She recently met some horses and kinda lost her mind a bit. We're working with out trainer to get her better socialized and it does require putting in some work. VoodDoo basically just loves to play. She wants all dogs to play with her all the time and doesn't know how to react when she doesn't get the desired response. She is "mouthy" when she plays, wanting to gnaw on your hands and while that is okay for adult play, we want to see her do less of this so she wont scare children.

These days VooDoo has a good life. She eats good dog food (and is learning to eat on a schedule) and often gets table scraps from me (much to the annoyance of my girlfriend). She gets walked twice a day and gets to go explore local Baltimore parks. She rides with me three or four times a week with the top down on the Jeep (one of her favorites) to the local community garden (where I hope her pee will scare off the rabbits that ate all my carrots and onions last year). She loves the damp, high grass at the community garden and will lay there, belly up to the sun, for hours. She sleeps snuggled in blankets on our couch pretty much every night.

Hopefully the breed haters will see that THIS is a pit bull. She's a dog. Sometimes she's going to do the wrong thing, from a human perspective. It is our job, her owners job, to see that this behavior is corrected. If VooDoo does a bad thing, it is a reflection of her poor past owners and a poor reflection on my girlfriend and I...not the dog. Most of a time she's a source of joy, fun and happiness for my girlfriend and I. We hope (and feel like) she sees us the same way. As is the responsibility of ALL DOG OWNERS, not just Pit Bull owners, making sure your dog is a breed ambassador is the job of the owner, not the dog

We live in a neighborhood where many people own dogs. Most of our neighbors are good people, but I've heard a few of them say things like "I don't pay a lot of attention to (insert their dog's name here), but he's just a dog." Its attitudes like that that make a poor dog owner. Whether it's a pit bull, a rottie or a three pound Yorkie, a poor dog owner is likely going to have a dog that behaves poorly.

I have a dog that I adopted in 06 (not a PB), he's real sweet around people and reasonably social around other dogs except when we go to the bark park, he doesn't usually like to interact with the other dogs. He just likes to wander around and sniff and pee on everything.

When a pitbull or pit mix would enter the park, the first thing that would happen is the park would clear out (!), but my dog had always seemed to take a liking to pits and would run around and play with them. It made me nervous but people would watch on from outside the fence and you'd hear the murmurs, "oh he's crazy" etc etc.

Well a few months back we went to a bark park where there was a pit in the dog run with it's owners. We entered that area and just as soon as we did, the dog charged us and started being aggressive. We were lucky the owner was able to get the dog off of my dogs or it would have been a very sad day.

I don't think the owner was necessarily irresponsible. I don't honestly think they knew their dog had issues like this. Maybe they did. The bottom line is whether they did or didn't, pitbulls have very powerful jaws and once they bite, that's the end of it. So I'm not taking any more chances.

That's my take on the matter. I tried to be open minded but the fact is they can be unpredictable and dangerous and approaching with caution or fear is completely warranted.

While Pit Bulls do have powerful jaws, they are not the most powerful breed. They do tend to have a lot of muscle packed on their frames...VooDoo is very strong for a 35 pound dog, but both my girlfriend and I can control her on leash or off (which would be very rare). I would think that a responsible dog owner would have a very good idea of how their dog was going to react in a "bark park" type environment. You need to know your dog is going to be on good behavior before you take them to a dog park. For example, I would not yet be comfortable taking VooDoo to a dog park.

My girlfriend's sister has a Jack Russel Terrier. It is very aggressive towards other dogs. The Jack Russel has gotten to know VooDoo, so they get along pretty well now, but the sister and her husband are not very good dog owners. Their JR has no boundries, has received no training and is basically allowed to be a terror when it wants.

I was fully prepared to sacrifice myself for my tiny dog's life.

Bringing an aggressive dog to a leashless park should be a considered crime IMO.

And that's about as instructive an anecdote as yours.

dogs. Any dog, especially large ones "can be unpredicatable and dangerous and approaching with caution or fear is completely warranted."

You can't take a dog who has never been put in that situation, turn it loose, and expect it to behave like it does at home. That's why you socialize your dog, which is not the same as taking to a dog park and turning it loose.

I have a dog that I take to work and she's great with people and loves the attention. We've also taken her to herding events (she's a Cattle Dog) and she's normally pretty good with the other dogs, but if one runs up and gets in her face she's going to snap at them to back them off. Dogs don't like other dogs to run up to them head on. That's why they typically approach from the side and sniff butts first. That's the proper greeting if you're a dog.

That being said, I'd never take her to a dog park and turn her loose. She would be out of her comfort zone and can be insecure at times. If I took her to a dog park she'd be on a leash, for her protection and for the protection of any dog who thinks it's acceptable to give her a big ol' smootch on the mouth without sniffing butts first.

I do have a dog that would love a dog park. He's the kind I'm talking about above who tend to not obey doggie manners. He's incredibly sweet and great with all dogs and people. He's also very large, which can be intimidating.

I guess to get to the point, we know how our dogs are going to react around other dogs and people and we know what they can handle and can't handle. It's not breed specific, it's dog specific.

Pitts are usually great with people. That's why they're the number one breed stolen from peoples' yards. They'll go with anyone. They can have issues with other dogs and that's why socialization is so important, especially early in their life.

I'm convinced that while there are certain breed traits that you can expect from a dog (a Cattle Dog puppy will at least once in its life "heel" you. If you don't kill it while in the pain induced craze that follows being heeled, you'll learn that that's what they do- it's their nature to nip at the heels of moving creatures), a great deal of the behavior of a dog is related to the owners- how much time you put into training and socializing your dog.

if my neighbor's lab bites me I will get a bruise on my leg. If your dog bites me I might lose my leg. It's not about your dog's disposition, it's about her ability to maim people.
if all pit bulls were well-taken care of, there would not be such a problem.

The anectdotal evidence is overwhelmingly swamped and made irrelevant by the statistics concerning dog attacks and the damage done.

but there's a lot of misconception and simple false data here as well. Many people will lump any stocky terrier breed into the Pit Bull category.

I don't think it's true at all that a lab can't be just as dangerous as a pit bull. My 35 pound pit bull is certainly not capable of severing a human, adult leg (unless your leg is made of Pupperoni). Again, these statistics are not based on things like per capita ownership and the (unfortunate) percentage of people who own a Pit Bull for nefarious reasons.

Humans are essentially responsible for all manifestations of the Pit Bull. They were, indeed, bread for fighting and guarding, and that's unfortunate. However, judging the breed for the damage it's capable of instead of judging on an individual basis is just as bigoted as judging someone based on their skin color.

such melodrama. :eyes:

on breed stereotypes. there is a fear, because there is something there to be fearful about.

i had an irresponsible owner who first had three rotweillers. one night, i had one of them confront me on my driveway until the owner came out and got her. then they got two pits. they got out of their fence yard often. i had two little children that could not play in the front yard because i never knew when they would be out in the neighborhood.

regardless of the reasons so many pits kill, it is still a reality.

Dogs will act as their owners allow them to act. If your neighbor had grayhounds or labs or chows, they would have been just as much a threat.

Do you fear traffic accidents every time you drive your car? Do you fear firey death every time you get on an airplane? Do you fear screaming electric pain every time there's a thunderstorm? Statistically speaking, you and yours have a great chance of being killed by lightning than by dog attack. You have a MUCH MUCH great chance of being killed in a car accident. So yes, in may ways, your fear is unfounded.

that play out in their front yard?

when being mauled by a pit bull, on the verge of death, do you expect the person to reflect.... sweet dogs, bad owners.

surreal

It's not a matter of what breed your idiot neighbors owned. If they had owned ANY breed large enough to harm a child, they would have been a danger. Your fear is founded becasue your neighbors are irresponsible dog owners, not based on what breeds they owned.

Why not call animal control or the police if they were such a danger? If you feel threatened by the lack of responsibility a neighbor has in exerting control over their pets, you have recouse, don't you?

Dogs of all breeds can and often do become aggressive if they have poor owners. Not the fault of the dog. Fault of the owner.

we can talk about any other breed, cut an aggressive little lap dog is a punt kick to stop it. not so much with a pit.

the pit went into anothers neighbors yard thru hole in fence that had a rotweiller. attacked and hurt to such an extent, they had to put down the rot.

when people bring animals into a neighborhood with that kind of strength and power to the expense of others, says something.

Sure, you can punt a Yorkie 20 yards, but again Pits, Rotties, etc. are not the only large breeds. If your irresponsible neighbor had had a German Shepard, or a 60 pound Yellow Lab, or a Golden, and were not responsible pet owners, they could have been just as dangerous to your children.

Again, if you felt threatened - so threatened that you would not allow your children to play in their own front yard - why didn't you do something about it? We're all trying to live here in a civilization together, right? If someone is neglecting their animals and allowing them to become a threat, then the police or other authority need to be involved. Yes, if someone brought an aggressive, large dog into my little group of row houses and it was a threat because it got free or otherwise threatened my dog, myself or the people that live near my, you bet I'd confront the person about it, or call the police.

Ask yourself, if your irresponsible neighbor had owned an aggressive 60 pound Chow, or Shepard, or Pincher, would you have been any less afraid of it?

and again, the dogs were continually picked up. after the attack to the neighbors rot... he told the owner of pit, you may be a crazy son of a bitch, but i have an AK whatever. i see your pit, i shoot it. the pit got out again. all the drunk and drugged people in that house scoured the neighborhood for the pit. i watched eighbor raise his gun above the fence line, showing the neighbors he was ready to shoot. my house is in between the two.

that is a moment of a decade experience living in this house, with those neighbors.

we came home one night from a bbking concert to have our neighborhood roped off. hubby went thru alley to get home. cops chasing us into driveway. swat in our yard. because the neighbor had done something

more gunshots from that house. i called cops and animal control often. bullet hole in one of our windows

do i need to go on and on and on

who are you to assume i did nothing. or the neighbors did nothing

he was a name in town. living off a trust. always in trouble with law. and a family that always got him out of trouble

until he died a couple years ago and ambulance came to pick him up

now really, how much of this story did you really need?

Again though, I don't see any fault of this lying on the dogs.

I have no idea what anything you just said has to do with the breed of dog involved. Sounds like a lot of your neighbors were straight up crazy. Sounds like your neighborhood was a rough place to live for awhile. Nothing in anything you've said in this entire thread is in any way an indictment on a breed of dogs...just shitty neighbors.

the majority of mauling deaths are with pits.

why you cannot intellectually see the reason people may have an issue with a pit is beyond me.

everyone has a right to the choice. i have never argued the right. just as i didnt have the right to demand the owner not have a pit, at the expense of our freedom.

it seems though, those that love pits ignore the very real issues purposely, in order for agenda

this is not a rough neighborhood. the house remodeled and is now selling for 650K. you have held onto many of the stereotypes with my stories that you accuse of the pit.

me not doing anything
rough neighborhood

why?

because majority of times, you would be correct. and today, the majority of times there is a death by mauling, it is the pit

You may be correct in that many, if not the majority of maulings/deaths are attributed to pit bulls. I say attributed becasue that's an important point. When ANY mixed terrier is involved, it is always reported as a pit bull. If my dog was involved in something like that, do you think it would be reported as a Pit Bull or a beagle? "Neighborhood child mauled by beagle" just doesn't have the catchyness that pit bull has, does it?

The point I've been trying to make is that your neighbor was an irresponsible dog owner (and sounds like a real scumbag of a human in general). Had they owned ANY large breed, it seems you would had reason to fear. The fear should be attributed to the correct source, right? Again...if that neighbor had owned a 60 pound Chow, would you have had less fear of it?

I have only read into your stories what you've portrayed. Late night gun weilding, constant police action...doesn't matter if this is going on in a "good" neighborhood or "bad" neighborhood...if that kind of activity is regular, it's not a place I'd want to live. Totally beside the point though.

As I've said in other areas of this thread, Pits (and to a lesser extend, Rotties) have become the dog of choice for unsavory people for any number of reasons. That doesn't make the breed a bad dog, just means that a large number of these dogs are owned by irresponsible or intentionally bad people.

(And that's ANY breed fatal attack)

A little perspective, please.

a little perspective.

it is a reality

to be wary of a pit is not extreme.

And here's a CDC study about dog bites and deaths, where they confirm and cite probable over-reporting for Pit Bulls.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dog1.pdf

Singling out pit bulls for cautionary measures is like singling out lightning that is right on top of you while disregarding the ones a mile or 2 away.

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in her food bowl. make her sit or down or obey some other command before feeding her, and always, always make her wait until you are done eating to eat. if you feed her from the table, you elevate her to your status. this will make her more prone to feeling like she has to protect you.

i don't usually get into these pit threads. i love all the bullies. they have such stout hearts. a good pit is a great dog. but just like all retrievers don't retrieve, all pits don't fight. some are cupcakes. some are killers.
people can train them to be killers, or people can fail to raise them to be good citizens. it is always a big responsibility. many are not up to it.
good luck with your baby.

We feed her twice a day on a schedule, as we're trying to get her used to our schedule (i.e. we don't want her to eat a full bowl at 10:00 PM before we got o bed). My girlfriend does a good job of reining me in on that and I've gotten better about it. I gave her a two pound ham bone with meat an fat scraps left on it out on the deck a few weeks ago and then had to pay the price when she puked it up on our sofa. Girlfriend was not happy about that, but I learned my lesson (sometimes I need training too).

and make her at least sit and wait a few second. my daughter used to do the same thing with my dogs when she came to visit. even tho it is an iron clad rule in my house. then she wonders why her own dog is so unruly. and why she is an unrepentant counter surfer. :eyes:
food signals are at the heart of the leader/led relationship.

if you don't already, watch the dog whisperer. everything i have ever tried on my own dogs from that show worked exactly as advertised. and mostly very quickly as well.

that was one of the specifics out trainer covered...helps the dog get used to obeying a command. If I'm giving her a pupperoni she now sits before I even open the bag but out trained said to give the command regardless. I will endeavour to cut out the table scraps while I eat though.

I do sometimes catch an episode of the dog whisperer and we've bought a few Pit Bull specific books that have been very eye opening to new owners like ourselves. For example, a lot of what we read about their sleep is interesting. Most books recommend that they be allowed to sleep in your room but not on your bed and that pits are very reactive to light and will generally go right to sleep if its dark (which has proved true in our case. VooDoo will stay awake and watch us (or lick things) while I read with the lamp on but as soon as I turn it off I hear one or two more rattles of her collar as she gets comfortable, then that's it for the night).

"Sometimes she's going to do the wrong thing... " I would not trust my kid around a pit bull. See:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Child-Killed-By-Pit-Bull-in-Concord-99037214.html

Call me a breed hater, I don't care. I call myself someone who values human life and safety. In the case above, a toddler was killed by his family's pit bulls.

So, "sometimes she's going to do the wrong thing" and if that "wrong thing" is attacking and mauling or killing someone, hey, that's just the way it goes ???? And that's supposed to be acceptable??? Or am I just imposing my "human perspective", as if that doesn't matter??? Dogs don't have values, people have values. Would you prefer that we conduct society from a "dog perspective"?

Reputation, like respect, is earned. The reputation pit bulls have was earned, not imposed from a "human perspective" in some kind of random, arbitrary way.

First, no, I'm not saying that if my dog mauled a child my answer would be "hey, just the way it goes." Goes back to the whole "responsible ownership" thing, yes? I don't think my dog would hurt a human but I wouldn't leave a baby or toddler with her unsuprvised. Ever. Hell, a cat can (and they have) kill an unspervised baby. Anyone who leaves their young child or baby alone with a pet larger than a rat is being irresponsible. Again, reflection of the owner, not the animal. Of course, if a cat suffocates a small baby, we don't accuse the cat of being a savage animal.

they werent raised to be aggressive. i also didnt trust my brothers ability to train, nor my childrens ability to do NOTHING that would set the dogs off.

of hearing the sort of spew you've posted. Bull terriers were once used to watch children. Humans made the breed into killers; so cool to have one with a fucking heavy chain and padlock around its neck. And, yes, there are countless times when society would be far better off being conducted by a dog's perspective. You've said yourself that you're a hater and humans make a conscious decision to do that.

No human being, much less a baby, should ever have to endure that type of pain. And what gets me mad is that the owners are always like the OP, completely oblivious to the dangers. :mad:

at any time.

We don't have children, but otherwise your statement that any dog can turn on its owner is, to an extent, true.

So, what are you advocating then? Should we get rid of all dogs since they're a potential threat? Not allow people with young children to own dogs under the assumption that they're "oblivious" What other potential threats should we get rid of before the become a real threat?

Bad owners don't keep fences repaired... bad owners don't socialize their animals... bad owners allow their dogs to be in unfamiliar situations without the proper caution... bad owners give animals a bad name.



SCARY LOOKING!!


But that doesn't mean you need to have fear...



My Cooper was in two scary dog groups... Shepherds and Dobermans... 111 lbs of loving lap puppy... protective of all small creatures, including babies. If a baby was crying, he was on the hunt for the reason... and looking for someone to help the baby... pulled me my the sleeve more than once to help a crying child.

It's not the breed... Cooper would have been double trouble following that kind of "logic."

but that simply isn't the end of the story and I wouldn't have a pit bull in the house under any circumstances. I have never read a story of one of the brutal attacks when the dog owner admitted to realizing the pet was a threat. It's almost always a deadly surprise.

and they said the dog was wonderful and sweet - until her husband got up in the middle of the night to get some milk out of the fridge and the pit bull attacked him, and mangled his leg. They got rid of the dog the next day, and are now very against pit bulls.

The truth is, it only takes once, and once is too much. Did he scare the dog while opening the fridge at "the wrong time"? Who cares? If you have an animal in your home that can go berserk because you make the wrong move AND severely injure you, it's not worth it.

Note that I had a 105 lbs. blue Doberman Pinscher. In his entire life he NEVER even growled at anyone in the family. Dobermans are very intelligent dogs and are quite social if trained correctly and taken through obedience school. Mine flipped out exactly once when I was walking him and a dog in the neighborhood charged him. In his mind, it was probably more that he was protecting me than the other dog.

The trainer I took Blue to had golden retrievers so well trained, they would get her purse out of the car if she told them to, and she had been training dogs for years. Guess which breed of dog she refused to allow in a class with other dogs? Yep, pit bulls.

The problem with pit bulls is because their jaws are so powerful, it only takes ONCE and they can cause severe injuries. I have no doubt my Doberman could have killed a person, but they are a very stable breed, like German Shepherds and typically only get aggressive with strangers or when confronted by other animals. You don't read about people getting mangled by their own Doberman or Shepherd if they are a decent owner. The problem with Pit Bulls is they will turn on their OWNERS, along with strangers, etc.

http://www.dogwatch.net/myths/lock_jaw.html

"On this topic Dr. 1. Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia wrote:
"The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of "locking mechanism" unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

The 'pit bull' has powerful jaws, but they are not alone in this. This is yet another myth - that 'pit bulls' are more dangerous because they have the most powerful bite. Most large breeds and cross breeds have a very strong bite, and even smaller dogs can inflict a bite powerful enough to kill. Any dogs can be dangerous in the hands or an irresponsible, negligent or abusive owner."

is that they are well documented to turn on their owners. If you were an intruder, you would have had every reason to be absolutely terrified of my Doberman, or if you were a stranger and a family member didn't introduce you to him first. Would I have ever been afraid of roaming around the house in the night that Blue would attack? No.

Frankly, I wouldn't have a Rottweiler, either, because they have also been known to bite their owners, and they are so huge, they are also dangerous. Chihuahua's are known to bite their owners, but it isn't a problem because they are small. There are others, too - the large, mastiff type dogs that are known to have been bred for fighting - I wouldn't have one.

The point is, they are great dogs, unless they happen to turn on you for whatever reason. The couple I know are nice people, and love animals - I know they were good owners. Personally, I think having a dog like that is a little like taking in a wild animal. They may never attack you, but because of their aggressiveness and instinct to survive at all costs, you are still playing with fire.

Collies, Shepherds and Dobermans - dogs like that - were bred to protect the herds and property even at the expense of their own lives - they don't have the same type of survival instinct. That's the difference.

Can you point me to some statistics that show that Pit Bulls are more likely to turn on their owners? I mean, it's not hard for me to go google "Doberman Attacks" and find any number of articles and personal accounts on this subject.

In fact, as has been pointed out down thread, Pit Bulls were, for a long part of American history, associated with loyalty and defense of family.

You seem ill informed about the history of the breed. Pit bulls, while bred to fight, were also bred to defend their families and be loyal. In fact, loyalty and gentleness towards humans were, by and in large, traits that were promoted in the breed. Pit Bulls that turned on their human handlers were usually destroyed.

I'm ill-informed. That's why several counties ban them, and several countries ban them, and other breeds that are similar to Pit Bulls. It's all because of discrimination, and they are really just misunderstood dogs.

Thanks, I'll take a Doberman, a Shepherd or any other number of dog breeds that don't have a reputation for turning on their owners over one dog breed that I personally know of that turned on their owner.

You mentioned that your dog came from a rescue where it was being bred as a fighting dog. Don't ever forget that your dog has a very strong survival instinct bred into it. You may not think that breeding has anything to do with it, but as I used the example of wild animals, they have very strong survival instincts, as well. I wouldn't raise a fox or a wolf and expect it to behave like a house dog, because they aren't going to know matter how you train them.

Seigfred and Roy raised tigers and lions and had lost of experience, but you see what happened there. I wish you all the joy and luck in the world with your dog - I really do. I'm sure it is rewarding to be the owner of a dog that has the reputation of a pit bull and see it be a happy, well adapted dog. Don't expect everybody else, though, to be thrilled at having your baby around them, because too many of those babies have injured people and their pets.

even though I understand you meant it sarcastically. Countries ban a lot of things thanks to the need of politicians to pass "feel good" laws. Unfortunatly, Pit Bull bans are included in that. As has been pointed out, dogs (all breeds combined) kill fewer people per year than lightning strikes, but you don't see politicians out stumping for the installation of more lightning rods. Kinda like the cell phone laws in Maryland. Use of a hand-held cellphone or texting and driving is illegal...but cops cant acutally pull you over for it unless you're also violating some other law. Sure looks good on a political resume but has not real impact.

From the UKC (United Kennel Club: "aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable."

My dog was not a fighting dog, it was a breeding dog, owned by dog fighters, which is what I think I stated in the OP. She has no scars or anything that would indicate she was ever fought or used as a bait dog.

account for more bites and injuries than all other dog breeds combined. That is a fact.

Your dog was a breeding dog owned by dog fighters, which indicates she has the bloodlines of fighting dogs. You love your dog, and I'm glad for you. Just don't expect everyone to automatically love it, too.

Be specific, please.

But as you can already see from the responses, you are facing an overwhelming force of ignorance on this issue. Good Luck.

that I'd exepct a tea bagger to apply towards a race of people.

I have found them to be the most intelligent, loyal, and loving creatures. It's the exceptions to that, almost always man-made, that make the news.

My girl:

Your cat looks EXACTLY like ours. I don't have a picture of him on my cell or I'd post it. Only difference for our cat is white paws. They're such pretty cats.

that's what that does for me. :D

My guess on why so many pit bulls are involved in these sorts of incidents is because there are so many sociopathic douchebags who think it'd be cool to get dogs for fighting, or train them to be vicious, and guess what, they think pit bulls are the shit!

Pit bulls who aren't trained to be vicious, who are in loving homes, don't do that.

part of the reason they're responsible for a lot of attacks is the unfortunate fact that they've become the dog de jour for gangbanger assclowns and other lowlifes. A dog breed that becomes popular for the wrong reasons like this is going to have more attacks attributed to it simply on a per capita basis. The sheer number of exclusivly Pit Bull and mixes bull rescuses should be pretty clear evidence for this.

best dogs I have known have been pibbies or mixes. What a sweetie she looks!

As you can see, she's preparing her weapon of choice in this picture.

VooDoo looks like a great dog that has found the right home. :)

Here are my last two rescues. The first pic is Birdie, she was with is from 1999-2010 and was without a doubt, the best dog I've ever had, bar none.



Our current rescue is Olive, she's about 2 years old now and is fast following in Birdie's footsteps. The breed mix for both Birdie and Olive is APBT/Pointer. Wonderful dogs.

AAWWWWWW :loveya:

Very precious.

Birdie's passing was very hard on my daughter, I've never had a more difficult task than trying to explain to a 4 year old why her doggie had to go :(

Olive has stepped in and done a wonderful job of helping her with healing, she's a really remarkable pup :)

IMO, breeding of this dog should be banned immediately. Every single new puppy should not be allowed to go to another family until it is spayed or neutered.

Yes, there are some great pitties out there but irresponsible breeding results have damned these poor dogs so much in their dna there is no hope for their recovery.

If the dog is "wrong" at a genetic level, then it would reason that many or most of the breed would be uncontrollably savage. Fortunately, the opposite seems to be true. Except for the occasional OP on a message board, you don't hear much about the tens of thousands of people living happily with their Pit Bulls.

There are a lot of bad things that people do at a far greater frequency. Should we castrate people at birth, too?

Yes, but I'm feeling misanthropic tonight. ;)

And that's probably the biggest problem with the "statistics" of attacks that are being used to scare the hell out of people.

Any time there is a reported "pit bull" attack it could be a variety of breeds/mixes that actually attacked somebody. Yes some of the breeds are rather closely related but they are still individual breeds of dog.

When a "pit bull" attacks, it could be:

American Pit Bull Terrier
American Staffordshire Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Bull Terrier
Boxer mixed with just about anything
Dogo Argentino (Argentinian Mastiff)
alapaha blue blood bulldog

Among others. But, when any one of these dogs strikes, it automatically becomes a "pit bull" and the American Pit Bull Terrier breed takes the hit. :(

If only it were possible to have such control over breedings. Wouldn't it be wonderful if breeding could be so manipulated and controlled as to get nothing but perfectly healthy and perfectly obedient dogs of any type with no need for any socialization or training other than simple commands. How wonderful to be able to breed out all diseases and disorders, too... and that actually has a possibility since many diseases and disorders that are inherited can be identified on the DNA strand and carefully bred out, yet even then it only creates a higher level of likelihood that a dog won't get hip dysplasia or low thyroid or a host of other identifiable diseases and disorders. And the amount of money and work that goes into that DNA discovery in order to attempt to breed out certain diseases and disorders is astronomical.

Behavior is not and CANNOT be bred. Such a thing is not possible any more than it would be possible for humans or any other creature. Specific breeds of dogs merely have a stronger than average POSSIBILITY of certain specific behaviors all of which can be trained into or out of them. Nearly all breeding traits for certain behaviors like herding, hunting, retrieving, racing, etc. have far more to do with physical characteristics than behavioral ones anyway since breeding for behavior just is not possible. The best that can be done is to breed for behavioral tendencies and hope for the best and only to make it easier to train for certain behaviors which any reputable breeder can tell you is still quite a crap shoot.

Smart yet protective of their family, as any good dog would be.
The problems occur when weak minded people refuse or are unable to be firm enough, and lack the understanding of a dogs mind.

People bitch about Pits when Chihuahuas are much more likely to bite and snap. Even at members of their own family but because they're so 'cute' they tend to get a pass. I'll walk up to a Pit and pet them any day but I never reach to pet anybody's Chihuahua.

Dalmations, Shepherds, Cocker Spaniels, are known biters but no breed gets a bad rap like a PB.

I'm glad you found VooDoo and have given her the great life she deserves.

Voo Doo (love the name) is very lucky to have you both and you are exactly what good dog owners should be. Unfortunately that is not the case for so many.

On a side note, I have a half pit bull, half beagle girl named Kaloni. She also makes that boooo woooo wooooooo sound. Love it!

She really has two barks. The "beagle bark" when she is playing or wants attention and a most standard "woof woof" when she sees other dogs (or horses, rabbits, squirrels, et. al.)

she can sound tough when she wants to and then do the woo woo woo thing for playtime. So cute!

You can see evil oozing from everywhere :rofl:

What a sweet baby girl :loveya:
Reminds me of the beagle/pit mix we had when I was a child. She was the sweetest girl too. Had her for 19 years.

I'm glad that you had so many years with her.

The only thing truly evil about this one is her gas after she's eaten the wrong meat (lamb or venison). Oh gawd..... :evilgrin:

The farts :rofl: I forgot about that part x(

Would you rather swim in it knowing there are Koi or Piranha? I mean they are both fish so what's the problem?

:eyes: APPLES AND FUCKING ORANGES.

No, no, I'm sure you're right. Perhaps it's time to erradicate all dangerous animals before they hurt us...

Fail.

Look at the sweet little piranha...oooohhh....Ouch HE BIT MY F@#$ing FINGER OFF!

I just took my dogs to the vet. Basically Bowie is there with my tech friend who runs a local animal rescue, rescuing extraordinary dogs from the pound and shipping them to people in the NE who needs a new family member. I spent the time in the waiting room with this dog, who is a pit bull terrier. She is polite, gave me kisses aplenty, Pru, my dachshund, gave her kisses and she hates EVERYONE, and this sweet puppy wanted to come home with us. Do not tell me that every single dog in one breed is dangerous. I was attacked as a child by a doberman pincer. They freak me out a whole lot more than pit bulls.
There is a white Pit Bull across the street from us. He has a black spot over his eye and twin boys crawling all over him pulling his hair, ears and tail all day. He turns and licks their faces and nudges them the other direction. Yeah. He wonders his front yard with one of those invisible buried fences. I've never been scared of this dog either.
Like any breed, if raised by an asshole, the dog is going to be an asshole too. Dogs are not incorrigible, nor are they without redemption. I'm not sure if you heard of the shelter where the Michael Vick dogs ended up, but they rehab dogs so that they are adoptable, and most of those dogs have happy homes now.
People piss me off with their idiot attitudes about animals. ANY breed can have bad seeds. It all comes down to bad owners.
Duckie

Roxy isn't my dog, she's one of my dog walking clients and is one of the sweetest, smartest, most well balanced dogs I've ever met.

She was a cutie pie. I remember holding her when she was a baby and her crying when she was alone. She was SO Evil, let me tell you. She would suck on my finger when she was hungry.
Duckie

In part maybe?

Sweet face

She is a pound puppy. She needs a home. Look on Facebook at the Friends With Four Paws Rescue if you're interested. Expensive to ship, but SOOO worth it!! She's a sweetie. If it hadn't been for Skip (my husband), she would have come home with us today!

I think you'll find a closer resemblance to an Argentine Dojo than a pit bull. They're only recently becoming popular in the US and it maybe a better 'sellimg' angle than just another pitbull that needs a good home.

The vet thought my parents boxer/beagle mix was a pitbull. Sometimes they aren't sure and just throw a label on. There is nothing about my parents dog that says, pitbull.

I know my vet a little better than that though, and he wouldn't just throw a label on a dog. That is so not how he rolls. We go to his clinic because of the cast of characters in his zoo. There's Betty, the three foot tall, 200 pound mastiff, 4 pound Connie the Chihuaua and 18 year old long hair black cat Merlin, along with whatever fosters they're showing off at the time. Today was a little mini pom with hypothyroidism that looked like a little monkey. I love that place and he loves animals so much, he wouldn't be quick to just label.
Duckie

They are born PERFECT! Why put the poor dogs through that!?

Hard to tell from just one pic but I'd say Bowie comes from a line with a fair amount of modern Bull Terrier in the bloodlines ;)

Just like children. If a child is not raised properly, more than likely her/she will act out.
Sadly, a lot of pit bulls are trained to be aggressive

I think they're beautiful dogs. Too big for my tastes, but beautiful.

I have had 2 pit bulls and 2 Rottweilers within the past 20 years. They were all the best dogs ever. I gave them plenty of love. Unfortunately, one of the pits had a thing about cats. He hated them and had killed 2 cats. But other than that, all the dogs were sweethearts. The pits lived to the ripe old age of 13 and my Rotties lived to be 12 and 13 years old. You couldn't have asked for better dogs

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

bigotry isn't reserved just for tea baggers though.

That's funny:spray:

are the equivalent of the "Saddam had WMD and was behind 9-11" crowd. Willing to swallow every bit of media misinformation and will plug their ears and go "la la la I can't hear you" any time facts are presented to them :eyes:

Well said!

:applause:

Congrats.

I thought I'd seen all the stupidity there was to find on DU... nope. :crazy:

The history first.

Apparently there is a type of human who likes to take a particular breed of dog and turn them vicious. This has been true throughout my lifetime and beyond. When I was a child, the bad boy dog du jour was German Shepherds. They were used by cops to bring people down, they were used by the Nazis to torture Jews, they were the prototypical junkyard dog. People were afraid of the breed, even though in reality Shepherds were really sweet, gentle dogs if you didn't trains them to be vicious. I know, not only through empirical fact, but also from having been raised with two German Shepherds. They were sweet, loving dogs who were able to romp with us kids, and endured our roughhousing with good grace.

The next bad boy dog du jour was the Doberman, a vicious beast, rumored to get meaner as it got older because, at least according to some, their brains kept growing while their skulls didn't. Dobermans, with their sleek look, cropped ears and tail, their intimidating size, and their reputation as police and war dogs made the Doberman the feared bad boy dog of its day. People would bring in their children, cross to the other side of the street, pull their shotgun down from the window rack of their truck if they saw a Doberman trotting down the road. Like the German Shepherd, towns debated, and some actually did outlaw Dobermans inside the city limits. But again, reputation and perception didn't match the reality, which is that Dobermans are actually intelligent, social, playful pups. Again, my own experience with these gentle dogs has been quite positive, having grown up next door to a Doberman that often came over to play.

Which brings us to pit bulls. A funny thing about pit bulls, yes, they were originally bred to fight other animals for sport. But as part of breeding for that purpose meant that they had to be gentle with their human handlers. For generations of pits, the dog who bit its owner was killed, a brutal but effective way of breeding human aggression out of the breed, and a tactic that is still used today, both inadvertently and purposefully.

But about twenty five years ago, pit bulls because the bad boy dog du jour, and with that tag comes a horrible, undeserved reputation. Are there mean, deadly pit bulls out there, yes, I won't deny it. But the vast majority of pits are kind, gentle, loving animals. So much so that no less an authority than the AKC gave pits its highest ranking for being a family, kid friendly dog. One has but to look at the icons of the past to see this. Petey was the pit bull that followed the Little Rascals around, Nipper was the pit that you see listening to his master's voice for RCA, Tige was the rascally pit who appeared on Buster Brown ads. Helen Keller had her beloved pit, Sir Thomas. The most decorated dog in our country's history was Sgt. Stubby, a pit who served eighteen months in WWI, warning of gas attacks, fetching the wounded back from no man's land, even capturing a German spy.

In fact during the first part of the twentieth century, the pit bull was considered to be the American dog. The pit bull was the breed that appeared the most on the cover of Life magazine, and the pit was well represented on Army recruitment and other national posters because the pits' traits of loyalty, strength and dignity were thought to best represent the United States. Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and General George Patton are but a few of the notable figures who owned a pit bull(a list that also includes Jon Stewart and Jessica Alba).

Sadly, it was many of these same characteristics that once made the pit America's dog so attractive to the bad boys of the world, and thus they took a wonderful dog breed, and through vicious training, turned them into killers. Do you realize what you have to do to make a vicious pit bull? Quite a lot, since the pit bull ranks out at a high 83.4 on the ATTS temperament test, just below a golden retriever, higher than a collie. I won't go into the gory details, but the process involves starvation, physical and mental abuse, physical discomfort to the point of torture, among other things. If you submit any other dog to such a process, I guarantee you they too would become vicious killers. The funny thing is, the inherent traits of gentleness towards humans makes three quarters of the pits born into this world unsuitable for the bad boys. Their training doesn't take, and these gentle dogs, who remain gentle throughout the above mentioned torture regime are rewarded for their gentleness with either more torture(as a "bait" dog in a fighting operation) or killed outright.

But now, due to the idiocy of a relatively small group of humans, the reputation of the pit bull has been ruined. It is now scorned and feared, and as with its predecessors, towns and cities have banned, or are looking to ban this breed. People cross the street, snatch their children up, run for their guns when they see a pit coming down the road. And rather than blaming the humans who trained these particular dogs to be monsters, people want to blame the whole breed, label a whole breed as vicious and unstable, hate and harass an entire breed that has been unjustly maligned because of the actions of a few humans. Talk about adding insult to injury.

I look forward to the day when pits are no longer the bad boy dog du jour, when the trend has moved beyond them. Then perhaps this poor, tortured breed can regain some of the true reputation it deserves, perhaps not as America's dog, but at least the warm and loving spot it deserves in our hearts and homes.

I'm tired of the hater and the bad rep that pits have gotten over the past quarter century. I've had three pits, pit mixes in my life, and they've all been great, wonderful loving dogs. Currently my house is too full for anymore dogs(I currently have four), but at some point in the future I will have another pit, they're simply wonderful dogs.

However your cutey is exhibiting one of the most noted, vicious aspects that all pits share, the desire to lick you to death. That tongue hanging out, ready to swipe across a face, its a tell tale sign of this deadly disorder:evilgrin:

I think one of the most interesting aspects of pit bull attacks are the incident reports. You've owned mixes, so I'm sure you understand. We live in a typical row house community in northern Baltimore. Our block has about a dozen houses on it and behind is an ally with another set of a dozen or so houses. Of those approx 24 houses, there are four pit bull owners (that I'm aware of). Three (including ours) are mixed. One is pure (or close to it). They're all mixed with different things. Ours, like I said, is probably mixed with Beagle. The dog across the ally from us is the pure breed. Down the street is a pit that looks like maybe its mixed with some other terrier and three houses down is some other unknown pit bull mix.

However, if my dog attacked someone, do you think the headline would read "Viscous Beagle Mix attacks!"

Beautiful.
Thanks :toast:

necessary?

I think it's reasonable to be wary of any strange dog.

However, the person above claimed that Pit Bull defenders are the "birthers" of the animal world. That's a pretty outlandish statement, and pretty indicative of a hater.

ah, well see, we find something to agree on. lol

i am almost never in pit bull threads

How so, be specific.

Since you've chosen to latch onto the ' hater' label yourself.

your way of "labeling" is impressive.

whatever. i dont play in pitbull threads generally because there is a decided lack of respect. your post being an obvious.

that was not directed at any one person. You outed yourself when you replied to a post that obviously struck a chord within you. Can't place blame on someone else when you self label yourself.

not only do you feel the need to label people in an outrageous manner, but your reasoning on defining people in an outrageous manner is.... outrageous. your logic is not only lazy, but it falis, miserably

just a huge ass

whatevah

i guess you answered my original question. it is necessary for you to define people in this manner. what a hoot

Your own aggressive projections are the long standing failure here.

that people love their dogs. they want to call you a 'hater' bc that is the way they see this. they often view any discussion of the breed as an attack on the dog they love. I think PB owners see this as a battle between those who love and understand the breed vs. those who hate it based on headlines and stereotypes and want it banned.

Love is a beautiful thing. I love my dogs, my neighbors, my family, their dogs, and I don't want any of these getting injured. my concern about dogs of all breeds and what can happen comes from love too. But love is not rational. I'm a big fan of love but love is emotion. and emotions and facts often separate as easily as oil and water. I think some are too blinded by love to see it on the other side.

lab. dont know. BUT twice when she was young she was snappy at children that came into our back yard. twice in 7 yrs. to this day, since she hasnt been around a lot of people but family, i am very watchful when she is around kids.

love her. take care of her. and i refuse to allow her to hurt a child.

not a tough one for me.

i expect people that own pits to love them adn take care of them, and keep fingers crossed. if somethng happens it is not an i told you so, more a bummer, i am sad.

it isnt a battle for me. but i am not going to pretend there isnt an issue, either

thanks kurt, i appreciate listening to this perspective.

Of course not. You know you are not a chair and there would be no reason for you to take offense to a label that does not apply to you. I did not label you or anyone. You felt it necessary for some reason to jump in front of that train yourself. Why, I can only wonder.

Judging from your earlier posts I gather you are no fan of the breed. That much is clear. But would I have defined you a hater of pitbulls? Again judging from your early posts I would have said, no, but..... you know yourself far better than I do.

a little balance is a friend.

For whatever reasons they have, they hate a breed of dog that doesn't deserve a label of being a mindless, bloodthirsty savage.

And I am making no more of this than you, matter of fact, I've made less an issue of this compared to all your other posts so you can keep your condescending 'balance' bullshit and tuck it back in your pocket.

seems to be that condescending balance issue

i can certainly understand the need and desire to defend and love these animals. i can also see the reasons people have issue with them.

You use to be nice. A thoughtful, intelligent and kind person that could discuss the merits without all the personal insults. What a shame it is no longer so.

For whatever reasons they have, they hate a breed of dog that doesn't deserve a label of being a mindless, bloodthirsty savage.


this sounds as extreme and projecting to me as you are claiming from the their side (or i guess in your view, my side). a personal experience on the subthread above, a threat to my children for a number of years in their home makes me extreme. or my experience with a brother that will only have pit bulls and not properly train them, how thoughtful and understanding are you being?

i am not being "un-nice". i am tired of hearing pit bull mauling and then people on du putting up a picture of their pet, that they love, and saying.... oh ya, be afraid of this. i think it is so insensitive to deny or dismiss so readily the horrid death of being mauled by an animal in such a way.

there are many many pit bull threads i dont get on. i have been on maybe three in 7 years. but every once in a while it is too much for me to see once again, the dismissal of potential danger for ALL of us with this issue.

You say that and then turn around and say I'M the exteme and projecting one? It may be a stretch I know but there are people that hate pitbulls and hate them enough to want them banned from their neighborhoods. I can't understand how that can be construed as an extreme statement. The extremists are the people that want this breed banned.

You are trying to make this about your personal experience with your neighbors. It is sad that your neighbors are irresponsible with their dogs and you and your family are suffering because of it and yes that is too bad. However this is not soley about you nor was I directing anything specifically at you nor did I reply to any of your earlier, personal experience, posts. So how is it that you try and drag me into your personal experiences and then say I'm insensitive but then turn around, again, and try to belittle me with insolent sarcasm. 'I'm making too much of this or I need more balance, as if my stance or opinions were 'unbalanced' in some way. Mmm yea, whatever eh. Yes you weren't being "un-nice" were you.

Do I believe pitbulls are inherently dangerous? No I don't!

Are some people idiots? Absolutely!

Nuff said!

were not bred to fight - they were bred to guard livestock and property, even at the expense of their own lives. They have a loyalty to their owners and their charges that goes beyond their own survival instincts because they were bred that way.

Dogs that are bred as fighting dogs have a survival instinct at all costs, beyond loyalty to their owner, which is to be expected given the nature of what they were bred to do.

You can train any dog and make them go bad - I don't disagree. I just think it behooves you to be aware of the mentality and instincts of fighting dogs. Survival is first, loyalty is usually second. You won't know which in your pit bull until it's too late.

Which breed do you think is rated with the better temperament?

Oh, yeah, pit bulls.

One other thing, Shepherds, and especially Dobermans, were bred as war dogs, ie, they were bred for human aggressiveness. Pits on the other hand were bred to fight other animals, but to be gentle with their handlers. Like you say, "it behooves you to be aware of the mentality and instincts of fighting dogs." Apparently, from the drivel you just posted, you aren't aware. Go educate yourself, then get back to me.

I wish you all the joy and luck in the world with your pit bull. Don't expect everyone else to be as thrilled as you are about it, because they have injured to many people and pets for those around you to share your enthusiasm.

Given the nature of the breed, vs the nature of the humans that mistreat them, I put the blame squarely on the humans everytime. The breed itself has a long, proud past, one that a small percentage of humans have ruined.

And frankly, I don't care what everyone else thinks about my dog. If you're gonna be a pit hater, I don't want you around anyhow. But the friends and family who have been around my pits have loved and adored them, including my two goddaughters, my nieces and nephews, all who spent their childhood playing with my pits, roughhousing them, hugging them, loving them. What you and the rest of the haters think doesn't matter, the ones who know me and my dogs are the only ones who matter. If you feel the need to cross the street in fear, I will laugh at you, and my dog will grin a wide, pit bull grin(which will probably really make you shit your pants).

If it gets out and is roaming the street, I will call animal control in a heartbeat. If it wasn't a pit bull or a rottweiler, I probably wouldn't do that.

I'm not afraid of dogs - my 105 lbs. Doberman probably looked a hell of a lot scarier than your pit bull.

I walk them on voice control, and they simply don't snap for anything or anybody.

And for one who isn't afraid of dogs, well, you sound like somebody who is afraid of at least some dogs:shrug:

I am not a pit bull hater, but to deny the facts of their history and selective breeding is foolish. Also, if one were to examine the statistics of the "bad dogs" of the past like German Shepherds and Dobermans, one would find that during those periods these dogs were no more likely to attack and cause serious damage or death than other breeds. In regard to Pit Bulls, the statistics are clear - these dogs are responsible for more serious injury and death cases than any other dog. In fact, Pits and Rots account for more death and serious injury since 1979 than almost all other breeds combined.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1979-1998-breeds-dogs-involved-in-fatal-human-attacks-us.pdf

I wouldn't own a Rottweiler, either. I don't hate the dogs, I'm just not going to pretend I'm thrilled that someone decides to keep one as a pet around me. If they get out and start roaming the neighborhood, hell yes, I'm calling animal control no matter how friendly they seem.

There is always this rush to say "well other dogs bite", etc. Yes, other dogs do bite, but some dog breeds bite much more often and do a great deal more damage than others. Those two breeds are also a lot more aggressive and run right up to people. My neighbor's 150lb Rottweiler practically climbed in the damn trunk of my car when I was getting my groceries in.

Between Pits and Dobermans, you'd be wrong more often than you were right. Maybe something to think about...

From ATTS Temperment Tests: First number is total tested, second is animals that passed the test, third is failed, fourth is percentage passed.

American Pit Bull Terrier 804 695 109 86.4%
Doberman Pinscher 1,592 1,237 355 77.7%
German Shepherd Dog 3,078 2,597 481 84.4%
Rottweiler 5,446 4,558 888 83.7%

Would you have your dog temperment tested if you thought it would fail the test? You have to pay for those tests. They also had twice as many Dobermans taking it as Pit Bulls, three times the number of Shepherds, and over five times the number of Rotts.

Let's talk about the statistic of bites. Which dogs are reported to bite the most, and which dogs cause the highest number of injuries?

That's the significant piece of information - not a dog showing test that you have to pay for and enter your dog into.

Are you making the argument that if more pits had been tested, that their pass rating would go down? That's not how statistics work...

Obviously most people who take the test don't expect their dog to fail it, and yet 20%(ish) do. That doesn't mitigate the fact that Both the breeds you've been championing fail the test at a higher rate that Pit Bulls do (significantly so among Dobermans).

Now, if you want to talk about reported dog bites, you're going to have to do a few things. One is including per capita research in the test. If there are two times as many Pit owners as doberman owners, than that needs to be factored into a "reported bites" test (not likely any way to do this, so it's moot, but the point stands). If there are 99 pit bull owners and those dogs are involved in two bites and 50 Doberman owners and those dogs are involved in one bite, the likelyhood of being bitten by a Doberman is higher. So the whole "pit bulls are involved in more bites" argument is pointless without statistics backed up by the per capita ownership.

out of all reported dog bites and injuries, which dog breeds rank the highest? Are you telling me then, that they highest amount of dog ownership is Pit Bulls and Rottweilers? Because statistics say that Labrador Retrievers, German Shepherds and Yorkies are the most owned dogs - and have been for several years.

Pit bulls cause one-third of dog-bite related fatalities while only making up less than 2% of the dog population.

Yes, Shepherds, Dobermans and Huskies can be aggressive if they aren't trained properly, but they are also very popular. Still why don't you see more of them biting, injuring or killing people?

As has been pointed out in this thread, Pit Bulls are, unfortunatly, the bad-boy dog of choice right now. That may be part of the reason for the higher bite/attack statistics and that is unfortunate.

However, throughout this thread you've been making the argument that based on temper, a Doberman or Shepard is the better choice but the ATTS statistics don't back up your argument. You've continued throughout the thread that Pit Bulls are more likely to "turn" on their owners but supplied nothing but anecdotal evidence to support that.

I've argued (but admit that I don't have any stats to back it up with) that a lot of Pit bull attacks are not neccissarily accurate reports based on breed. Again, if my Pit/Beagle mix were to attack someone, do you think it would be added to a list of Pit Bull attacks, or Beagle attacks. Both might be accurate, but what breed do you think would be mentioned? Further, the Pit Bull breed as a whole is currently over populated and unfortunatly seems to be oft owned by people who think training dogs to fight or be vicious is a good thing. That's an indictment of the owners, not the breed.

appropriate to keep in urban environments. I really don't think you can dispute that. I wouldn't keep a Fila Brasileiro in the suburbs, because they are just not appropriate in an environment where there are a lot of people. I wouldn't keep a Labrador Retriever in a one-bedroom apartment, because they are energetic and will chew things up if they don't get enough exercise.

Pit Bulls were bred to fight bears and bulls. They have a killer instinct, and don't back down - that's just their nature. Mastiffs are extremely protective, and are not suitable for areas with lots of different people.

Why are Pit Bulls the largest number of biters? Is it because of the owners? If so, then perhaps people should be licensed to keep them and there would be fewer problems.

But let's say that I didn't. Lets say I agree that some dog breeds aren't appropriate to keep in urban environments. What are you going to use as your metric as to what dogs breeds shouldn't be kept?

As you mention, Pit bulls were bred to fight. However, as you continue to exclude from your argument, they were also bred to minimize human aggression in the breed.

I've made my argument to you as to why I think Pit Bulls are responsible for a large number of bites. You can choose to accept it or not.

and so will most veterinarians. Some dogs are not appropriate for urban environments. I named two breeds of dogs and two separate circumstances under which they shouldn't be kept. It's not good for the dog, or their owners.

I understand that this is going to fall on deaf ears, because your argument depends upon asserting that any dog can be kept anywhere under any circumstance, but it just isn't true. You have mentioned both the UKC and the AKC I believe. Even the AKC states that Pit Bulls are stubborn and require a patient and firm owner. That usually equates with a dog that needs something to do, and a firm hand because they can get into trouble.

THAT is why they cause so many bites - they are hard-headed, strong, and get bored. Combine that with the development of a temperment to be a fighting dog, and it's rather obvious what is going to happen with a dog breed with that temperment.

Let me know if you also think it is sensible to keep a lion in your house because you are capable of training it to not act like a lion, or to keep a wolf in a densely populated suburban environment. Environment is just as important as training, as is understanding what how your pet thinks and responds. Not every pet is suitable for every environment.

You've failed to do so. You asserted that "some breeds" are too dangerous to be kept in an urban environment. I'd ask that you supply me with some metric on how to judge which breeds fall into the "too dangerous" category.

Highly aggressive towards strangers, energetic and can harm children, adults and other pets. Which breeds fall into that category? Those that have been bred as fighting dogs.

Here is a list of dogs that are banned in several countries, and several places in the US because they have exactly those traits:

Presa Canario: Bred to fight with bulls, and pretty much unstoppable once they start.
Pit Bulls: Bred to fight with bears and bulls, and won't let go until either forced to do so or the thing attacked is dead.
Fila Brasileiro: Aggressive toward strangers to the point that some will not tolerate them at all.
Dogo Argentino: Bred to fight wild boars and big game hunting, and don't always do well with dominance.

Most places in the US also include Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terrier, and American Bulldogs because owners try to get away with keeping them by claiming they are something other than a Pit Bull.

Your metric is fighting dogs - strong prey drive, aggressive, dominant and don't do well with strangers. Why? The problem is not necessarily how it acts at home - the problem is if they get loose. All four of the above mentioned dogs either have issues with prey drives, disliking strangers, need for dominance, and tend to be territorial.

Pit Bulls are not highly aggresive towards strangers, the ATTS statistics bear that out. In fact, Pit Bulls have a very high rating for being good with children (which again, has been pointed out more than once in this thread).

Further:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/steve-dale-pet-world/2010/01/breed-specific-bans-have-done.html

http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/article.php?aID=3473

*snip*
There has actually not been a serious pit bull attack in Denver since the 1989 mauling of Rev. Wilbur Billingsley, who was left with more than 70 bites and two broken legs. Before that, there was the 1986 death of a 3-year-old boy.

But empirical data suggests that breed-specific legislation does not work. Several other Denver metro towns and cities — including Englewood and Lakewood — examined dog bite data and decided breed-specific legislation is not as effective as stricter aggressive and dangerous dog laws, which hold owners responsible for their pets.

*snip*
What they do know, however, is that pit bulls do not lead the pack when it comes to bites in the Denver metro area. Labrador retrievers are the most likely dog to bite, at 13.3 percent, according to data provided by the Colorado Association of Animal Control Officers and released last week by the Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs.

Pit bulls follow, at 8.4 percent, which is then followed by German shepherds at 7.8 percent.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_13316680

*snip*
The survey found that 2,060 bites that were recorded in the 17-county survey area, which included a total population of about 700,000 dogs. In other words - only 1 out of 350 dogs actually bit someone.

Of the dogs that were responsible for bites, fully 129 different breeds were involved, including much-loved breeds that are rarely considered "dangerous dogs" by the general public and are never included in breed-specific bans.

Breed-specific legislation is costly to implement and enforce, with the money spent without any evidence that breed-specific legislation actually has any real effect on public safety.

http://www.gazette.com/articles/dog-102257-good-bans.html

*Snip*
The Toronto Humane Society has completed the results of a statistical survey of municipalities across Ontario regarding the number of dog bites. Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) was included in amendments made to the Dog Owners Liability Act making pit bulls an illegal breed in Ontario. This act has seen countless pit bulls (and Staffordshire terriers) euthanized simply because of their breed. A study of the total number of dog bites since the act came into effect in 2005 shows that there has been no significant reduction in the total number of dog bites since that time.

(and so on...)

Pit bulls "won't let go until either forced to do so or the thing attacked is dead."

Good grief. You sound like you should be against having any large dog around people. Why specialize in one breed?

"won't let go until either forced to do so or the thing attacked is dead"

I'm 47 years old and have had American Pit Bull Terriers and Staffordshires and mixes thereof since I was 9 years old. That covers a lot of years and a whole lot of dogs and I have been able to call off every single one of them and bring them to heel at any time. I would never own a dog that I couldn't do that with. If I had a dog that was that out of control crazy I'd shoot it and bury it in the back yard.

It all comes down to being a strong pack leader and training the dogs to follow your commands. Not just with pits but with any dog from a chihuahua to a St Bernard. I don't know about the pits you've owned or your experiences with them, but I know my dogs and I know how to keep them in hand.

and you've summed up the problem with a lot of pit bull owners. They are hard-headed and need a lot of dominance.

Again, the main problem, though, is when they get out (i.e. no longer under control of their owner).

Committed pit bull owners are never going to admit that they can be a handful, and frown on anyone declaring their animals unsafe, probably because around them, they are just fine, and they are responsible owners. I understand being attached to your pet.

Pits no more so than other dogs I've raised.

Probably the biggest "handful" I've encountered recently was with a miniature Daschund/Chihuahua mix I was boarding for a friend while he was on vacation for a couple weeks. The dog was downright violent and I have a scar on my hand from where it chopmed the shit out of me. I had to leave it in the crate most of the time because I feared for my daughter's safety with it running loose. :wow:

Are very similar. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a bit more different of an animal, but still fairly close. But the American Bulldog? No way is it any part of a pit bull terrier. That's complete and total bullshit and anybody dumb enough to buy that one knows Jack shit about dogs. They are molossers and that's where the similarity ends. If American Bulldogs are pit bulls, then so are Boxers and English Bulldogs.

Off the top of my head I can think back to at least 3 times in my life that I have personally witnessed a dog that was not an American Pit Bull Terrier nor any part thereof listed as a "pitbull" by law enforcement and the press after attacking someone no matter what anybody tried to tell them. From personal experience, I don't trust what has been "reported about *pit bulls*" any more than I trust what has been reported about Saddam having WMD and a hand in 9-11...

newspapers and ad time. As has been stated on this thread several times, if a beagle/pitbull mix were to bite someone, how would it be reported? Either as pitbullmix or pitbull. I would be you a brzillion dollars that they would NEVER report it as beagle or beagle mix.

And I know when the bad-dog rep has moved on from pit bulls, it'll be attached to yet another breed that violence-worshipping men want to make their own. And as long as living beings are legally unprotected and allowed to be treated as weapons, the breed slurs will continue.

I think he is telling you that is HIS girlfriend :P

She's very progressive, our VooDoo. :)

Some of my favorite dogs that I know are Pitbulls. They are the most loyal breed you can own and can be total hams. Their is no breed I have known that has the will to please it's owner like a Pitbull.

The sad fact though is that Pitbulls have some traits they are born with that do make them potentially dangerous. They have the ability and the will to finish a fight. A lab will bite and even on occasion maul, but a Pit will finish until they have killed whatever they are attacking. Once a Pit gets into that state of mind they are much more difficult than any other breed to get to calm down. They will not stop. My town is so over run with Pit Bulls that they are everywhere you look. It's a shame that such a great breed has been over bred and now is a menace. If Pits were banned in my city, it would probably make it a nicer place and that is sad to say.

And they can get quite large.

The owners are a menace, more likely. If there were good owners, you'd never notice the dogs... never hear boo about them.

are a lot more likely to get to the point of being out of control than Shepherds or Dobermans. Dobermans and Shepherds are receptive enough to verbal commands that they will override their killer instinct. Pit Bulls and Rottweilers, though, they get "bull-headed" and will not stop until whatever they have attacked is dead - though a feral Doberman or Shepherd is going to be scary as hell, too.

American Pit Bull Terrier 804 695 109 86.4%
Doberman Pinscher 1,592 1,237 355 77.7%
German Shepherd Dog 3,078 2,597 481 84.4%
Rottweiler 5,446 4,558 888 83.7%


In fact, of the breeds you've been talking about, Doberman's fail the ATTS Temperment test most often.

Sure. But most owners aren't, and most owners aren't going to enter a dog into the the test if they think they will fail it.

Considering that there were twice as many Dobermans in the competition, and three times the amount of shepherds, which by your logic demonstrates wide ownership, wouldn't you expect there to be two times the number of reported Doberman bites and injuries as Pit Bulls, and three times the number of German Shepherd bites?

But that isn't the case, and we both know that.

Logically, I would expect there to be more doberman and shepard bites and injuries that pit bulls based on the general ownership, but the tests pretty clearly show that Dobermans, especially, fail the test more often than Pits. I feel like a lot of it is the fact that most people wouldn't know a Pit from an Am Staff or the fact that if it looks anything like a pit bull, people call it a pit bull. Like I've said several times in this thread, what would you expect the local headline to say if my Pit/Beagle mix attacked a child?

"Beagle mix attacks child in park!"

or

"Pit Bull attacks child in park!"

Do you think it's a pit bull or pit bull mix? Why is it that Pit Bulls and Rottweilers account for more bites and injuries than all other breeds combined? Is it because they are the most owned breed of large dog?

Or is there some particular reason those particular dogs are the ones doing the biting and injuring? Why is it that Pit bulls account for 1/3 of all dog bite fatalities? Is it because they are so popular, or is there another reason?

She has rehabbed several pits, and has managed to get voice control over all but one she's tried to rehab. Some dogs, of any breed, have been so poorly treated that there may not be a way back for them.

but they need to keep them under control at ALL times. There have been documented cases of pit bulls attacking and killing horses. I don't doubt that another dog could do it, but why would a dog come onto someone else's property, get in the fence, and attack something the size of a horse?

They were bred to fight bears and bulls, and to not back down under any circumstances. What do you think happens if for some reason they attack a child? And why is it that they are the ones that cause the most injuries and bites?

It's not popularity. I love dogs, but at some point, you have to consider whether or not such a breed is reasonable to keep. I wouldn't keep a Fila Brasileiro, either, unless I lived far enough out in the country that it wouldn't be a danger to anyone. Some dogs just aren't meant to be companion animals. That's my take on it.

being bull-headed. My dogs always listened to my commands. You are dead wrong. My dogs never attacked humans or other animals. Same with pit bulls, which I have owned two throughout the years. It is the owner who is at fault.

long before I'd have a pit bull. They are very smart dogs and can follow commands well. They aren't for irresponsible owners, though, and need a very clearly dominant owner.

Looks like VooDoo's gonna be a strong little girl judging from those paws she'll grow into.

Thanks for this thread. It's great to see the good stories about pits, when there's so much negative press on the breed. You're right - there's no bad dogs, just bad owners.

Here's to many years of joy with your new best friend!

:hi:

She might grow a little bit, but I think she is mixed with a smaller terrier breed and that she's about done. She'll probably put on another 3-5 pounds because she was under weight when we got her and has been a little slow to accept a food schedule (and is kinda picky).

Pit Bulls are not naturally aggressive. In fact, human aggression has been bred out of them for centuries. They rate pretty highly with the ATTS in terms of temprement tests and the UKA.

According to the UKC, "aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable.

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Up to you an no skin off my back either way.

You can take a look at the information avaliable to you about Pit Bulls, or you can burry your head in the sand. I'll be happy to get you a shovel if you want to take a look at the information.

ROFL at your Ad Hominem, but that's pretty much what I expect from you. The ability to link my ownership of a Pit bull with not caring about human beings is...well, I honestly don't even have the words to describe that leap.

When others argue with "ignore" I know I've done the right thing, and I've saved my nerves from yet another miserable discussion!

It's hard to get good information out when people are willfully ignorant, and applaud themselves for that fact.

the sheer irony of somebody who could post "I am glad that many areas ban pit bulls" in one post and then bemoan the "authoritarianism" of the victims of those bans in the next. It's just too rich! :rofl:

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"You need to do some research" is an opinion.

There's excellent information in this very thread about the true nature of the pit bull temperament. But if one already has their mind made up, I guess the facts are bothersome inconveniences.

I am not a pit bull person, btw. I have sighthounds; my dogs are on the other end of the spectrum. So it's not a hugely personal issue to me. But I object to the unfair persecution of any breed and those who love them.

What is it about *this* breed which you find preferable to other dogs?

IMHO, pit bulls have been bred for an antisocial purpose. It's not their fault really, but doesn't change the fact that "dangerous" has been designed into their nature.

Her bad behavior isn't just a reflection on you, but also on the generations of dog breeders of whom she is the true offspring.

I didn't go into adoption looking for any particular breed. Well, I guess I should say I had somewhere between six and eight breeds I was looking for: Bulldog, boxer, Pit, Am Staff, Lab (maybe), Golden, Jack Russel and two or three more. So it was a pretty wide range. The deciding factors were:

1. Girlfriend approved of cuteness.
2. Dog was adoptable in the time frame we wanted.
3. Dog came from a resuce with good reputation.
4. Dog was younger than three years old.
5. Dog was not outrageously expensive in terms of adoption fees to rescue or in short term medical treatment.

That was pretty much our priority going into dog adoption.

There are lots of reasons. Some people like the aesthetics of a particular breed, or the history, or the temperament or trainability (or lack thereof, if you prefer an independent, cat-like dog). Some have fond childhood memories of a certain breed, or are looking for a dog of a particular size and activity level to fit their lifestyle. Granted, some are drawn to a breed with an unjustly bad reputation for the exact wrong reasons - and others are drawn to those same breeds out of a sense of indignation, to prove they've been unfairly maligned. Or perhaps those are the breeds who most need dedicated rescuers and advocates. It's very much an individual matter, but those who love one breed over another should not be persecuted.

we bought him from the original owners at 11 months. He is purebred, beautifully bred from champions and all that ... The original owners work so he was crated a lot, and the lack of socialization shows.

Pluses: Crate trained, potty trained, had basic obedience, loves kids (they had 2 boys), and very eager to please. Will work hard for treats.

So we treat him like any other rescue we've gotten - he goes to good dog manners and doggie daycare once a week. I'm home with him so the only crate time is when I need to run errands or at night. He still chews alot, so we're not letting him sleep in our room (out of crate) yet, but hope to soon. He will bark like mad when folks approach the house (or even walk by), and sometimes at people when we walk. I've been able to distract him by practicing commands while walking (call him back by name and give him a treat - that distracts him from whatever he was barking at).

So far 3 months in and he is coming along great. It's not the breed, it's the owners, as you said. There is such a lack of information out there - even though this is our 3rd rescue I learn new things from the trainer in every class.

Thanks for this post and hope everything continues well with VooDoo!

She has the advantage of being only part pit-bull, and having a good owner. However, she still has a troubled past, and just because you've been loving her since January, you are not in the clear. I adopted an abandoned rottweiler from the dog pound. He was well trained, and propbably had at least one good home, but somewhere along the line he probably was mistreated.

It was guessed that he could have been working as a junk yard dog. He was emaciated, but had a chafing mark on his neck. They said he had probably been wearing a too tight collar but slipped out after losing a lot of weight.

Anyway, what a great dog! He was wonderful. So loyal, so polite. He did bite me, though, after he got annoyed with too much intrusive grooming. It is terrifying when a huge, powerful dog bites you. That dog had had some bad experiences in his life, and dogs with a troubled past are more likely to bite.

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That's why you need to realize that it isn't the breed, but the people who own a particular breed.

Recognize the fact that pit bulls were, and are, considered great family dogs, wonderful with kids.

Recognize the fact that pit bulls deliberately had human aggressiveness bred out of them.

Recognize that calling responsible pit bull owners "birthers of the pet owner world" is insulting, demeaning, and simply untrue.

People aren't wanting to drive you away, people want you to stop being condescending, insulting, and to realize the true fact of pit bulls, namely it isn't the dog, it isn't the breed, it is the owner.

Once again the facts are well defined (not by me).
Your argument sounds quite like "guns don't kill people, people kill people"..... Soooo Let us help Iran arm itself with nukes!

BTW, My best friend has 2 pits, my sister has 2 pits and my nephew has 2 pits..... That does not, however, alter my understanding of reality.

Once again: Let pit owners love their pets all they want!

Then you should have no problem with the fact that the AKC has consistently rated pit bulls as the best family dog, good with children, for years and decades. You should have no problem with the fact that on ATTS temperament tests, pits rate out quite high.

The fact is that any dog is going to reflect the training it receives from humans. Any dog, big or little, can be turned into a vicious, bloodthirsty beast. It just so happens that for the past quarter century, that dog has been pit bulls. As I stated earlier, it used to be Dobies and Shephers, that is a fact. In a few years it could very well be Labradors or Golden Retrievers, or who knows.

The fact that you're ignoring the role that humans play in shaping a dogs behavior simply reflects your own ignorance when it comes to dogs. Dogs, all dogs, have evolved to do what humans want them to do, that is a fact. And that is what they will do. It is indeed a reflection of their human handlers and owners, not a reflection of breed, that is also a fact.

Start dealing in facts, not sensationalism.

"The birthers of the pet owner world" = "posting empiriacal data?" who knew? :shrug:

<edit typo>

Swear to God if I see the Clifton Report, I'm gonna scream.

:hi:

Watch Pit Boss on animal planet and you'll change your mind.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/ShortyRossiFanPage

Well, mostly pits. VooDoo is beautiful. Thank you for adopting.

And for your OP.

My son got RAWCO as a puppy and he was the best pit in the world. Little bit of life guard duty one day and he saved the life of my son's wife who got a cramp while swimming in a cold lake.

Kids crawled all over him and never got bit. IF they ate his food out of his bowl, he might growl, but never bit.

Taught the cat to be a dog. Inseperable.

Was loved beyond measure by anyone who met him and got past the whole 80 pounds of "lap dog"?? bit.

Then one day he just started losing weight and by the time my son got him in to the vet.... pay first and didn't seem to be critical until after a week... but he had diabetes so bad my son had to put him down.

PLEASE. Feed the dog only food that is meant for dogs. There are lots of dog treats that won't cause the bad end.



Rawco's Grandma who still misses him.

Tig

My dog gets home cooked meals on occasion. I'm not seeing that as a danger, as long as it's protein based and does not contain onions.

I grew up with a pit bull, the only injury I ever got from her was a cut above my eye when she got a little too happy about me being home from school and caught me with a headbutt while she was jumping around.

She was terrible about playing tag with out rat terrier. Eventually the RT figured out he could go under the cars and the pit couldn't. She also couldn't stop very fast, so I spent a lot of time pulling dents out of doors. They're many things, "Able to execute rapid turns on gravel" isn't one of them.

My mom would pick up a stick/flyswatter/whatever and pretend to hit me from time to time just to see what she'd do, and without fail she'd step between the stick and me because she were more willing to be hit herself than see someone else hit. Then she'd just stand there and sort of look sad. Of course she had no idea what "being hit" was, since she'd never been hit. She just knew I was pretending that it hurt.

I've only ever seen the results of two dogs turning on their owners: One was a chow, the other a poodle. The chow didn't do any damage, just planted itself in the door and wouldn't let anyone in the house, including her owner. The poodle jumped her owner while she was sitting on the ground and took the better part of her face off. (A full sized poodle, not a small one.)

Weird how everyone is absolutely certain PBs turn constantly, yet you never meet anyone that has one or has friends that have one that turned.

Have to admit, I was prejudiced against bully breeds till I got to know a Rottie and a pitt mix that belonged to 2 different friends. They were by far 2 of the best-behaved, most well-socialized and gentle dogs I've ever met. I'm well aware that there are plenty of un-socialized dogs out there, but I put the blame squarely on the owners of those dogs now. And thank goodness for decent rescues these days, who take dogs with potential for good family lives and give them the chance to be part of a pack that will respect their place in society.

Cheers for VooDoo, and best wishes for a long and happy life with her!

I've been attacked twice in my life by dogs - one was a black lab and the other a cocker spaniel, a vicious cocker spaniel. I have been jumped on and nearly licked to death by a pit bull. One of the friendliest dogs I know is a rottie - he's a complete coward. He's the first to hide when he hears something unknown.

Any dog can be vicious if it isn't trained and socialized properly. Dogs are pack animals - they have a pack mentality. You have to be their leader - this goes for any kind of dog, be it a chihuahua or a pit bull. We had a chihuahua/dachshund mix which could be quite mean at times. She was a great watchdog and would let you know immediately if someone was outside. She was a great dog as long as she knew you were the alpha. If she didn't, she'd try to become the alpha. I didn't trust her around little kids...she liked being petted and enjoyed playing but she didn't like being poked or having her tail pulled and would nip. She had very little patience and I had to be in the room with her if we had children in the house. By contrast, the rottie I mentioned earlier, loves kids and tolerates them poking him, trying to ride him, etc.

A lot of ignorant, wanna-be-macho, dumbasses think pit bills are bad-ass. They have no idea what it means to raise and to train a dog!

Let's just face reality: people who deliberately seek to own pit bulls are wanna-be-macho, insecure people (mostly men) who need to prove how badass they are. Of course, this excludes the people who adopt a pit bull puppy because of whatever reason, or adopts a well-raised pit. Or a mix, or something.

I have had 2 rottweilers... One I raised from a puppy (no papers, so he kept his tail). That boy signified the best in a rottweiler. Loyal, intelligent, strong, sweet, bold, fairly polite, and takes things seriously. He outlived all of his siblings, because my ex and I gave him such a loving upbringing.

The other rottie I adopted was also great. Such a reward to adopt such a beautiful, loving, once-expensive, animal, that someone else practically dumped in the trash. His story is elsewhere on this thread.

There was a news story just the other day of a woman who had her nose bitten off by a . . . .

. . . . wait for it . . . .

. . . . a Shih-tzu.

One of these:



Dogs are dogs.

They do what dogs do.

For the most part, the problem is bad owners. And bad breeders. And malevolent people.




edit to add link to nose biting story: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Shih+bites+store+greeter+nose/4633841/story.html

The misinformation is so rampant I don't even know where to start, it's really no use to even try. I've lived with APBTs and similar "bully breeds" for 38 years, had a lot of these dogs in that time. I know better and I guess that's going to have to be good enough.

And I have a shi-tzu also, she's the one always wanting to start shit with other dogs, she thinks she weighs 100 lb :P

In the GSD's defense, she's perhaps the gentlest creature ever to walk the planet.

Our Border Collie is the alpha, though.

Lol, it's amazing how formidable they can be for such little dogs.

It doesn't surprise me that the border collie is the alpha, every border I've ever known has been incredibly smart.

It's amazing to me how easy it is to use emotion to manipulate people, and this topic is rife with sensationalism. Personally, I've been bitten by dogs twice, both poodles. Little fuckers should be castrated, I tell ya!

I mean, come on.

:rofl:

the behavior of the dog. Period. No exceptions.

If the dog attacks someone, charge the owner with assault. If the dog bites a kid on the face, charge the owner with violently maiming a child. If the dog kills someone, charge the owner with murder.

Since it's only the "bad" owners who are responsible for all the problems, this should be a widely accepted solution by everyone, dog aficionados and the rest.

As long as it goes for all pets, all breeds