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Florida voters will get to decide if public money can freely go to religious institutions.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:38 PM
Original message
Florida voters will get to decide if public money can freely go to religious institutions.
Republicans who voted for this to be on the November ballot call it the "Religious Freedom" amendment. What a misleading title. We have religious freedom. All it really means is that now taxpayer money can freely go to religious groups.

Many states, 40 last I heard, have some such Blaine amendment to insure separation of religious groups and state money. Florida's GOP has been chipping away at this firewall for some time, and now this provision in the constitution will be going up for a vote.

Here's how it reads in the Florida Constitution:

Section 3 Religious Freedom

SECTION 3. Religious freedom.—There shall be no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting or penalizing the free exercise thereof. Religious freedom shall not justify practices inconsistent with public morals, peace or safety. No revenue of the state or any political subdivision or agency thereof shall ever be taken from the public treasury directly or indirectly in aid of any church, sect, or religious denomination or in aid of any sectarian institution.


Here is the wiki entry about the President Jackson's role and the Blaine Amendment:

The term Blaine Amendment refers to amendments or provisions that exist in most state constitutions in the United States that forbid direct government aid to educational institutions that have any religious affiliation.

President Ulysses S. Grant (1869-1877) in a speech in 1875 to a veteran's meeting, called for a Constitutional amendment that would mandate free public schools and prohibit the use of public money for sectarian schools. Grant laid out his agenda for "good common school education." He attacked government support for "sectarian schools" run by religious organizations, and called for the defense of public education "unmixed with sectarian, pagan or atheistical dogmas." Grant declared that "Church and State" should be "forever separate." Religion, he said, should be left to families, churches, and private schools devoid of public funds.(1)

After Grant's speech Republican Congressman James G. Blaine (1830-1893) proposed the amendment to the federal Constitution. Blaine, who actively sought Catholic votes when he ran for president in 1884, believed that possibility of hurtful agitation on the school question should be ended. In 1875, the proposed amendment passed by a vote of 180 to 7 in the House of Representatives, but failed by four votes to achieve the necessary two-thirds vote in the United States Senate. It never became law.

The proposed text was:

"No State shall make any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; and no money raised by taxation in any State for the support of public schools, or derived from any public fund therefor, nor any public lands devoted thereto, shall ever be under the control of any religious sect; nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided between religious sects or denominations."

The Blaine Amendment


Times have surely changed now.

Here is more from the Palm Beach Post. I am having a hard time with much of the press coverage of this issue. The Post calls it a "religious ban"...it is not that at all. It is a ban on money from public coffers going to religious groups. Our media is simple inept.

Voters to get chance to lift religious ban

A proposed constitutional amendment that would make it clear that state money can go to religious institutions was approved Friday by the Senate, putting the measure on the ballot next year.

The state constitution has a so-called “Blaine Amendment,” which prohibits tax dollars from directly or indirectly going to sectarian purposes. It’s been used to challenge faith-based programs that get government grants.

Backers say if government grant money could clearly go to sectarian institutions, it wouldn’t be used directly for religious purposes. But the provision, if approved by voters, could make it clear that state money can go to private religious schools, such as in a voucher, though the state’s main voucher program was found unconstitutional on other grounds.


If nothing else works, change the constitution. Right?

Two Republicans express concern:

Sen. Dennis Jones, R-Clearwater, noted that if it passes, state money could go to the Church of Scientology. Others have noted that it could go to the Koran-burning church in Gainesville, or it might allow for a voucher to be used by a student to attend a conservative Islamic religious school, meaning taxpayers would be paying for Islamic fundamentalist education.

“We may be very sorry we have voted for this amendment,” Sen. Evelyn Lynn, R-Ormond Beach said Friday. “This has great dangerous potential for all of us…be very careful about your vote.” The bill’s sponsors have said any religious discrimination is bad, no matter the religion.


I agree there is a great danger.

I was really surprised to see the Florida Independent website's coverage of this. The article I found called Section 3 a "historically bigoted law." That is not what it is at all.

Are we coming to the point that there is no real honesty even in independent media?

If passed, ‘Religious Freedom’ amendment would help state outsource services to faith groups

Last week the Florida Senate passed the “Religious Freedom Act” — a proposed amendment to the state Constitution that would repeal language that bans using public money to fund religious organizations. Coupled with the state legislature’s efforts to privatize several state services, repeal of such a ban could lead to an increase of religious institutions providing public services — without having to follow many of the rules federal programs must adhere to.

The amendment would remove Article 1 Section 3 of Florida’s Constitution, the Blaine Amendment — a historically bigoted law dating back to the 1800s. It was originally aimed at keeping public money away from Catholics. However, despite the law’s prejudiced roots, similar amendments remain in the constitutions of about 40 other states because they have maintained a firewall between church and state. Supporters of repealing the language say that Florida’s firewall goes farther than the U.S. Constitution in restricting access to funding.


And so here are the problems beginning already, and the voters haven't had the chance to even read the amendment they are to vote on in November.

The idea that rampant anti-Catholic bigotry is endangering public dollars for Catholic services — including educational vouchers — is questionable, at best, mostly because Catholic services are numerous in Florida and they have been for years. In fact, Catholic services was recently welcomed into Florida’s Medicaid reform efforts.

Sen. Joe Negron, R-Palm City, added a provision to the Medicaid privatization bill that would let religious institutions that are part of the program’s provider service network opt out of providing family planning services on “moral or religious grounds.” The opt-out provision was added at the request of Catholic services.

“The reality of this is that this is done at the request of primarily Catholic hospitals and Catholic-based (provider service networks) that want to provide medical care as an option, but for their religiously held beliefs don’t provide family planning,” he explained during the bill’s final passage in the senate last week.
“I didn’t feel it was right to penalize someone based on their religious preference and their deeply held religious belief.”


That is outrageous. Where are the media outlets on this issue? I am beginning to think that is a silly question and a useless one.

Interestingly enough, the Baptist Joint Committee on Religious Liberty is concerned over this because it might force them to compromise some of their beliefs.

Baptist Joint Committee statement

One legislator is asking a good question:

Sen. Jeremy Ring, D-Margate, wondered how the state can be sure that money given to church-affiliated groups for health, education or welfare services can't be mixed with church funds for proselytizing.

"What are we going to do to audit this?" Ring asked.

A ban on faith-based funding is the strongest, most effective way to protect taxpayers and preserve religious liberty. The government shouldn't be in the business of propping up religion, for one. But also, churches and religious organizations should be able to offer the services they are called to provide without having to worry about government audits and oversight and a prohibition on proselytization.

Why take the money and sacrifice the mission? Why offer the money and compromise government neutrality? The "no aid to religion" provision solves both problems and maintains robust religious freedom for all.


They make a good point.

The Miami Herald has a good comment from a Florida Democrat, Nan Rich. This is one of the few comments I have seen from our party here.

Opponents argued that language would open the door to state funding of questionable groups.

“This measure would write into the Florida Constitution the unfettered right of individuals to direct state dollars to religious extremists that espouse … virulently anti-Semitic, racist and other extremist views,” said Senate Democratic Leader Nan Rich of Weston.

The final vote came on a largely party line 26-10 roll call in the Senate with Republicans in favor and all except one Democrat, Sen. Gary Siplin of Orlando, against. The margin was just two votes more than the minimum needed. The amendment passed 81-35 in the House.

Read more at The Miami Herald


At least only one Democrat voted with the GOP on this.


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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's and give to God what is God's
And remember, anything the government funds the government can now regulate.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Unfortunately....that may not be true in the education field.
Charter schools are often not regulated by local districts.

I so much agree with rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's...and to God what belongs to him.

That is one statement from the Bible, paraphrased, that I never forgot.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. How do you think the majority will vote? I know there are many hispanics
who are very reliious and I don['[t know how they feel about this issue. I have a cousin who's a minister and he said he doesn't want and fed. funding because of the potential gov't control, bu he lives in Pittsburgh,, Pa. What are the feelings in Fla?
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. the majority is not the answer
it takes 60 percent here because of a previous conservative ammendment. It probably won't pass that test, but is being put on the ballot to drive republican turnout.
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SugarShack Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, Florida votes WILL NOT BE DECIDING, THE VOTING MACHINES WILL! Why do you always forget?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Heh heh.
I just keep forgetting and pretending it all works as it should. :)
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. The voters do not have the authority to make that call.
The US Constitution forbids it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well, it's going to be on the ballot.
So unless someone does something about it...I guess they will decide. Of course in FL what the voters decide doesn't mean anything unless it is what the GOP wants it to be.
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. And if they do approve it, the measure will be overturned.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Yep.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Of course, the Constitution only says
what the Supremes SAY it says.
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I believe this issue has already been decided in earlier cases.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. As we have already seen, this court does not feel bound by precedent
except when they don't really care.
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. oh, really?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Bush v Gore
They very specifically said their ruling could NOT be used as precedent.

Citizens United - they overturned a hundred years of precedent to destroy the democratic process, allowing overwhelming corporate money to purchase elections.

They don't give a FUCK about precedent, unless it is about something they care nothing about. It's easy to be impartial when you don't care.

This is the very definition of an 'activist court'.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
12. watch what repukes say when Muslims line up for their share of the public pie
:rofl:
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
13. 41 percent need to say no.
Making it clear that any religious organization could potentially take state tax funded vouchers, to include religions "you don't agree with", should do the trick.
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Wait til they find out that Muslims and Scientologists and Satanists can get funds...
We can't have that, can we?
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. OK
I wonder how soon it is before the "church" of Scientology take advantage of this. For those not in the know about down here, they pretty much run several counties down here.

And while I will vote, I know tallahassee will just ignore the vote. They do not need to fake it, just like they admitted we voted FOR high speed rail years before the current mess, but Jeb just ignored it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. You are right about that.
And I doubt many realize the strong influence they have.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
18. I hope there is a brazilian of Wiccan Preps ready to go.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. Voters can vote all they want, but in the end Gov. Voldemort and his minions will get their way.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. Possibly direct focus to where the money might be directed.
It is possible that public taxpayer money could end up in a church that has terrorist elements.

Better to keep tax money totally out of the hands of all churches.
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