French woman will not testify in US

"The presumption of innocence does not exist in the United States. My client does not want her strategy included in that framework," Koubbi said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110520/ts_nm/us_strausskahn_complaint

Is she sure she isn't thinking of the Napoleonic Code?

Is it just a French thing or does all of Europe think this way?

I can tell you it is sickening to observe the lynch mob mentality expressed by a majority of American commentators. These keyboard cowboys continue to call for punishment first and the asking of questions later.

for "calling out" specific posters by name if I were to give you links, right?

But if you have read any thread on DSK, it's plain to see the rush to condemn before all the facts are known by certain posters followed by numerous admonishments by others to stop it. So, I believe your question is disingenuous if you have read these threads.

I have read many of these threads. No one is sentencing him or judging him guilty, but there is a lot of anger toward the arrogance of males like him and Arnold Schwarzenegger for the arrogance and entitlement that they feel toward women.

you know the names of the people who have summarily condemned the accused "rapist". I've seen your posts agreeing with the lynch mob crowd, if not explicitly then by implication.

And yes, it is against DU rules to name the posters who continue to do this on every thread about DSK.

To my knowledge, being an arrogant pig isn't criminal.

Implying that someone MUST BE a rapist based solely on allegations published in our lying media is an arrogant, pig-headed thing to do.

Have you?

Anyway, even the police report would only contain allegations. Not proof.

Our responses are intended to at least throw in a bit of balance because if we didn't the threads would turn out like this one, gossip about people holding opinions.

in general has taken a precipitous free-fall - especially since
GW Bush became president.

Also in case you didn't already know, he and his minions wouldn't
dare to, say, vacation in Europe. Many countries there would
arrest GWB and hurry him off to the Hague, Netherlands, for trial
as a war criminal.

A former PRESIDENT of the U.S., too, no less! How have we fallen!

That's what happens when we elect criminals to high places! Cause
and effect. But most Americans don't even know this. The Main
Stream Media make damned sure that they continue to be ignorant of this.

I've even heard that Americans going abroad have been advised by the
State Dep't not to advertize the fact that they were Americans.
Being so thoroughly disliked does carry some danger with it, I suppose.

I had a few political discussions but nothing horrendous. I must say, tho, that Paris has got to be the most beautiful city in the world and the people very cultured. LOTS of French kids with their parents in the city's art museums, which I found impressive.

the public buildings. I've read that after they did their big clean-up, some of the
black and gray buildings were actually pink marble (under centuries of grime).
Yes, Parisians are the most sophisticated people I've come across. Nothing
fazes them.

Some people say Paris is not France. Others say only the Parisians are really French.
Take your pick. :o)

you will have no problem. It's actually frightening and people reading from overseas, as some of my relatives and friends do occasionally, are shocked at the mob mentality. I know it is not the majority of DUers, but a lot of people are just staying away, so it does appear that way to observers.

Seeing it has scared me for the future of this country. We have absorbed the Bush 'who needs a trial' philosophy apparently and taken it to a whole new level. No wonder the Egyptian woman said they do not want to use the US model of democracy as it is not a good example.

Now, how about we slam the French and the Egyptians and the Tunisians and anyone who dares to point out the fact that we have gone down a dark road and show no signs, as so many hoped when Bush left, of turning around ~ because what usually happens when someone dares to criticize us.

Despite being called a rape supporter and other unbelievable epithets for standing up for the rule of law, and upsetting as these attacks are, I will keep standing up for it or people will definitely think those people are representative of this forum.

It's only people like you that keep me reading the comments on DU instead of just skimming the headlines.

I belong here. But people like you and others, and the fact that I know that there are many who just do not want to engage in the nastiness so they remain silent, at least publicly. Can't say I blame them.

Supporting the rule of law doesn't mean you support the defendant, just his rights ... for our own sake, not his.

for many Americans to grasp. But can you blame them? They give lip service to 'innocent until proven guilty' adding 'I am not on the jury so I can judge' without understanding the whole concept behind our system of justice, which is based on the jury system.

If the population at large is unwilling to accept the premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' claiming the right to judge and that becomes the cultural norm, then the whole jury system falls apart. The jury pool is poisoned by the very fact that the culture has rejected the foundation of what constitutes a just system.

The media firestorm each time there is a high profile case is mainly responsible. Otoh, adults raised in a country that claims to respect the rule of law, have a responsibility to reject the Nancy Grace tabloid approach to justice which is basically 'Guilty as charged' and why do we need a trial?'.

You have only to read of the number of innocent people rotting in jail, or worse, on death row for years, decades in some cases, finally exonerated to know how much of a failure our system is.

RE post # 30: You belong here! You say things that need to be said.

Indeed, those here defending DSK based on spurious conspiracies are no different than those admonishing him based on the evidence we've heard of so far.

ever heard of this guy before suddenly knows everything he has done...and have become experts on French culture and morals.

And anyway, who cares what commentators say? If there was no presumption of innocence, there would be no bail, and DSK would be in prison right this minute.

You do, apparently.

Why else would you be replying to me here or write an OP filled with more of the same twisted logic while presumably asking for answers to questions you already have an answer to?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1140571#1141709

We Americans and our opinions.

that is what you might think, if you are a foreigner looking in at US newsreports.

I wonder if she really feels that way or would just rather pursue her case at home.

if say, palin were to say soemthing stupid like that we would be all over her ass for being stupid.

for a person in france, who proclaim to be sophisticated, this lacks a consistency to that brag. her ignorance not something to admire.

However, the French do seem to have a different "take" on a lot of things that you'd think we'd share. I recently argued with a French/Dutch man about the new French law banning the burqa in public. The French, he said, have a collective right to their own cultural norms. Besides, he said, the burqa was being forced on Muslim women and was violating their rights to dress as they wished. It was an interesting conversation...

falls right in line protecting men. abusing, embarass, humiliate her and she is the victim, while protecting the male and his image in a perv walk (the horrors).

but the bottom line is the u.s. probably (this is a guess and i welcome new info) is better at fair trials than france. it is in our constitution and how we are set up. and we do a damn good job at keeping a fair and balanced system, though not perfect. and any nonbiased, educated, oh so sophisticated person would know this

so regardless of liking or not liking the perv walk, that has nothing to do with our justice systems trial and her unwillingness to help a fellow victim, against a man that did the same to her, that she already knows likely did this, and still willing to protect him, says a hell of a lot about her. reinforcing the, protect the male at all cost.

it is really a, mess up in the head, mentality as they have the audacity to look down their snooty nose at puritanical u.s.

really, thinking it thru, it is all intellectually amusing.

what i am pissed about (and i still like french wine, fries and snails) is a consistency at protecting rapists and potential rapists

Your posts, and many others here, are very France-ohphobic...ever think that maybe they'er getting different information in their newspapers, and, quite frankly, the media here is out of control, if I were her, I would avoid coming over here just for that.

the pres, the press, the citizens. they call the u.s. this. they are name calling.... us. i am addressing what they are doing. are you on france's ass?

and still... the rest of the post is right on and fun, intellectually in a mixed up way

also take note in my balance that i was not up on the judicial system and open to information given.... so as not to appear, stupid. i think i was more than fair and balanced

are proud of it: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droits_de_l%27homme&ei=mbnWTaXfLsLcgQfMq62fCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddroit%2Bde%2Bl%2527homme%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Divnsb.

Of course, everything really went off the rails in France's revolution and yet purportedly both France and the U.S. were talking about "human rights." It's an interesting dichotomy and I wish I understood it better.

they kinda copied us, lol lol.

ah ha. just laughing with me.

anyway, basically we have about the same.

thanks

"It's an interesting dichotomy and I wish I understood it better"

shhhh, dont tell, but i think it is born of jealously, lol. they are superior you know, but still... still, well hell, we are pretty cool, too.

I don't know that much about French history but it does seem to me they got behind the times and didn't seem to be able to handle their revolution. I was in the Carnevalet Museum (a museum on the history of Paris) last month and saw the detailed listings of all the people that were guillotined during the Terror. It was horrific. They were executing tradespeople who simply did business with someone in the royalty or palace servants. They even guillotined Lavoisier, their great scientist. Makes you wonder...

His great, great, great? grandfather came over with Dupont.

the Brits called the executions "shortenings."

I don't like the burka ban nor do I like puritanical American bullshit.

mentality of france. what makes u.s. puritanical compared to france is that in france, it is all about the seducing. especially in the politics. in the workforce. the more virile the man. the more he fucks around the more powerful he is. going on and on in this manner to the point it is saying, france has basically not evolved from the "it is a mans world" mentality. they said nothing about the womans sexuality, it was all about the man and his virility.

she talked about how they knew about his behavior, he was on their tabloid and his face on the front cover (oh no, the pure french dont care about their private life)titled the great seducer, and that it was known he might be a little forceful...

the commentator says, isnt that prettying it up the way you say merely forceful. it was really assault, ripping at womens clothes???

she says well maybe, yes, but we dont get into that

wtf

so, to be lectured about our puritanical america while i see a sexually male dominated environment where the whole world as their playground, does not impressed me, as the women support them.

The actions of the police and prosecutors in making a tremendous media show of it however are not especially helpful and could conceivably prejudice the right to a fair trial. The US criminal justice system in many ways is set up so that the accused is seen as convicted before the trial starts.

Is Strauss-Kahn a man who is capable of the acts of which he's accused? Certainly, on the basis of his reputation and the details of his relations with women that have come out since his arrest. Does that mean he should be presumed guilty before being tried and having the evidence heard? I don't really think so; it makes a mockery of the supposed principles of American justice.

Taking this case off the table, I wouldn't want to face our court system as a defendant. Not that I'd be tried by the press, but the police have a habit of making as many charges as possible and I couldn't afford to fight it in court. We have far too many petty crimes (not rape) for which the sentence can be substantial. Even if not guilty, I might accept a plea bargain to avoid a long sentence. It's very scary to be in that position.

We do have a two-tiered justice system. It does pay to be rich. How many Wall Street bankers are in jail for the crimes of 2008?

after talking about the hope for a plea bargaining this morning, we are now seeing a push to innocent, but take plea bargaining cause of scary unfair u.s. courts

Like I said nothing to do with this case ... it was my own case and I don't know if I'd do it again and no it wasn't rape. It was a speeding ticket that got kicked up to other charges because I was not very respectful to the officer. I fought it. The arresting officer and only witness committed suicide. He, and other officers, had been seeing a 14 year-old girl in the station and she told her parents. Small town. He killed himself when they came to arrest him.

but enough to know it sounds tragic and i am sorry about that. all sounds sordid and abuse of power. what it has to do with your ticket i dont know. but i have not always been "respectful" enough and i cry foul, too.

i want him to take a plea so the nation and victim does not have to go thru and he has some prison time. not to say, he is innocent. i think for women, the nation, and for these rich men to understand, there is a punishment raping and forcing themselves on females.

I think you'll get what you want and justice will be served.

the way he has been described in the media. But their voices have been drowned out by the far rightwing smearmongers from France, now joined here by such paragons of virtue as the Madame and friend of rightwing operative Roger STone, in the Spitzer case. Jumping into the fray seeing a chance to profit AND get rid of another 'leftie' at the same time, the media publishes her claims as fact. But a quick googling to check out those facts proves she is most certainly lying and under questioning could not prove, as her own writings in the past, already disprove, what she is now saying. But that doesn't matter, put a photo of a fake blond bombshell with big boobs and a history of providing prostitutes to powerful and wealthy people, and her word is GOSPEL! Never mind that prostitution should not be crime to begin with.

Your comment is reasonable, but you too have accepted the word of people who have an agenda. Most of the material we have seen here comes from a French anonymous writer who was part of the smear campaign by the rightwing Sarkozy camp over the past year or more ever since it looked like DSK might beat Sarkozy in the presidential election. They even have their version of Breitbart/O'Keefe and have apparently studied, maybe even work with Rovian operatives.

But the media just publishes without doing even a minimal of research. I have no idea what kind of man he is around women, but having take the trouble to try to double check what the US media says, I found as many women saying he was never abusive, was always charming and considerate, including his ex-wife and current wife and many others.

But as your comment demonstrates, the Roger Stone, Murdoch, Rove influences have prevailed and most Americans only know about the negative claims, such as the Madame, but nothing about the others.

I am sure we could find women to say nasty things about any man placed in the spotlight charged as he has been. So, for me, this is about the actual charges, I don't care what the rabid mob in the press feeding frenzy has to say. Evidence is what matters and yes, they are tainting the jury pool and it's unlikely he can get a fair trial here.

They often stick their penises into inappropriate places because apparently they believe they are entitled to sex anytime they want it. With any woman they see, because they are wealthy, famous or powerful and thus seldom hear the word "no" from anyone. Then they, their supporters, aka apologists, want to blame everyone and anyone else. If DSK were an average man he probably would have been arrested a long time ago.

And if the last few decades have proven anything, it is the wealthy and powerful men can lie, lie, lie and deny, deny, deny, but the truth eventually emerges.

them displayed the attitude you claim for all of them. My job, part-time over a couple of summers, involved meeting powerful men and women, politicians, billionaires etc. And I've known plenty of not so wealthy men, cops, lawyers, accountants, teachers, musicians, construction workers, and have definitely met the kind you describe among them. None of them have gone to jail as far as I know for their behavior.

Not into generalizations, I'm sure there are men and women among all demographics who behave badly around women, AND men. Judging a person based on their ethnicity, religion, gender, and now financial status is bound to be a flawed method of passing judgement on anyone.

I've known women who've stayed with men who cheat on them, not wealthy, but who knows why? And women who are wealthy who do the same. I cannot generalize from my experience and point a finger at any particular group. But if I were to do that, based on the behavior you describe, it would be law enforcement men I have known, hands down. But I'm also aware that those abusive individuals do not represent all law enforcement personel, so I prefer to judge them on their own individual behavior.

'He was accused, lock him up' ~ 'Women would never lie about rape, who needs a trial' ~ 'He was indicted by a GJ. He's guilty'! ~ is a perfect example of America's idea of justice these days.

Countries are refusing to extradite people here for that reason. This country has totally lost its soal.

Nancy Grace is not a popular show for no reason. Our beautiful system of justice with its thoughtful consideration of the right of every human to be presumed innocent until there is evidence to the contrary, has been abandoned. Even the right to Habeas Corpus is gone. And assassinations without trials of even US citizens have been accepted.

We are no model of democracy, and she is absolutely correct not to subject herself or anyone else to the US system of 'justice'.

The concept of innocent until proven guilty is a farce in the United States and Nancy Grace's show is a perfect example of that. So is the perp walk that is so common with law enforcement, the releasing of mug shots and crime blotters in local newspapers as well. Prospective jurors can easily be influenced by these things.

In the United States, it seems that guilty until proven innocent is the way it is. Other countries, especially European countries, are leaps and bounds ahead of us when it comes to criminal justice. There's a reason why the US only has 5% of the world's population, but holds 25% of the world's prisoners. What a disgrace.

Goes to show you...

Seriously, this is one charge, and testimony by other accusers is rarely admitted, nor is the jury normally told of other convictions.

The circumstances under which her testimony would be ruled in would be slim. But a French lawyer probably doesn't know this; the comment is probably aimed at the French public.

I wonder, can the judge allow the testimony of a foreigner?

if the defence calls character witnesses to proclaim that they know DSK quite well and he is yes, a seducer and a womaniser, but not at all a man who would behave in this way to a woman, then the prosecution may call witnesses such as Mlle. Banon to rebut with evidence of the defendant's supposed bad character and propensity for behaviour in line with the offence he's charged with.


On edit: it can be allowed, whether it can be obtained is something else (a subpoena from a US court would not be seen as binding by a French citizen in France, for instance, although testimony may also be arranged by sworn deposition).

Foreigner, because the 'other' women all seem to be from outside the US.

does the prosecution have the same right to call these witnesses?

The prosecution can introduce evidence indicating the defendant's bad character to counter defence character witnesses, but such evidence can't be introduced nor such witnesses called by the prosecution otherwise (as being irrelevant to the matter at hand until used to rebut defence evidence of good character in order to show that the charges are not in fact inconsistent with the defendant's known behaviour).

I don't think this guy will be calling any character witnesses.

they are playing

:wtf:

it's just their culture. they're a very rapey people. vive la difference, as they say in france (whenever somebody gets raped)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1149874&mesg_id=1151704

women are encouraged to keep mouth shut. i would say that is a culture of rape