Student asks school to not hold prayer at graduation ceremony. Town responds with lynch-mob tactics

Probably best to get the story from the horse's mouth...

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/hed7y/threatened_to_contact_aclu_for_prayer_at/



Followed by an update by the student's brother:

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/hed7y/threatened_to_contact_aclu_for_prayer_at/c1uut0n



And here's a story from local media:

http://www.bastropenterprise.com/features/x2132687894/Student-challenges-prayer-at-Bastrop-graduation



What can I say? How fucking Christian of them. Religion of love and peace MY ASS!!!

They love you and want peace for you until you disagree with them, and then the religion of love and peace becomes the religion of torches and pitchforks that engages in ostracism, harassment and death threats!

Shit like that is why I've renounced Christianity completely!

:shrug:

liberal christian churches were one of the pillars of the liberal base. how quickly we forget their work with the por or in the civil rights movement.

believe. If they were born Muslim...they'd be Muslim...or born a Jew they'd be Jewish...left to what they experience inside personally...they'd just be spiritual. Being told what to believe means you don't have to think or figure it out yourself. People believed in Zeus just as fervently and adamantly as Christians believe in their God...praying constantly for his will etc..

The Christ story has been repeated several times prior to the Biblical story and with all the same miracles and players. Closed minded bigots are taught never to question what they are told to believe in spite of their God given critical thinking abilities. How well they victimize those who dare to disagree. Beliefs are not reality, they are just what you believe while others may believe something different.

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Believe it or not there are millions of Christians who support the separation of church and state, see no reason for prayers at school functions and support a woman's right to choose. There are millions of us that support complete equal rights for gays.

Oh, and you would be breaking the law to do it.

want to prove it? Then say that you prefer a Catholic prayer, and a prayer to the Virgin Mary.

http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/index.htm

LA is a heavily Catholic State (that's why they are called parishes, not counties) and those fake Christians forget that (on purpose)

Or read them this Matthew 7, 1-5

Whichever, these idiots are the very ones that Jesus warned about.

the "moterate" christians denounce them as fake ("moderate" muslims do the same thing btw). But the problem isn't fundamentalist christianity or so-called moderate christianity or christianity in general. The problem is religion itself and its mental midgets believing things they are wholly unable to substantiate as being real. If you really want to fight fundamentalism then dump your imaginary friend, dump your bronze age superstitions and grow up already!

...want those rights resecured as special privileges for them and for their personal sects in particular.

BTW there is NO, ZERO, NADA, ZIP right of prayer in public places, and anything which might give it the appearance of official sanction makes it absolutely forbidden by law. Prayer at all school events has been verbotten for years.

These people are issuing death threats as a backlashover this non-existand "right" of yours to push prayer on captive audiences not their own.

The only life a person should be permitted to place their belief system ahead of, is their own life. And to whatever extent they would curtail the freedom of others so should their freedoms be taken away. Kill in God's name, and death should the MINIMUM and only available sentence. Silence, or try to silence others, get your vocal cords Botoxed, keep it up in writing and lose your thumbs for a while too.

"BTW there is NO, ZERO, NADA, ZIP right of prayer in public places"; actually, there is. It's called the "Free Exercise Clause".
That said, I agree that official sanction of a Christian prayer is unConstitutional. Now, you give people a moment to (silently)pray if they're so inclined, that would be to my way of thinking a reasonable compromise. You don't favor one faith over another, and if one has none at all, sitting quietly for 60 seconds harms no one.

It's a shame that more people aren't offended that the school was breaking the law. What a fine example for the children.

Who did that? Can't all the Christians get together in a church and pray before going to the graduation?

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"immoral outrage", my ass.

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was written to protect the rights of the minority. In this instance the young man was attacked because he didn't want a public prayer. He is in the right. You should understand this.

The U.S. isn't a majority religion rules sort of place. If you want that kind of society move to Iran.

Political correctness is nothing more than common courtesy. It doesn't steal free speech. Damn, you sound just like Rush Limbaugh.

It is publicly sponsored prayer - in the form of the state (the school) leading a prayer.

If they want to have a whoop n hollar tent meeting around the corner, that's fine. But at a school event, conducted with the imprimatur of the state, it is a clear violation of the separation clause.

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We believe in freedom of religion here, not enforced Christianity.

Are you even remotely familiar with the "establishment clause" of the first amendment?

in what is supposed to be religion free zones. There are many who feel this way. Why should there be prayers at a secular event, such as a graduation, or Town Hall Meeting, or City Counsel meeting?

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your children's school graduation ceremony and force them to listen to a prayer to Allah and there should be nothing you can do about it.


Funny how so-called 'Christians' who profess to love and cherish their right to Free Speech hate it when non-Christians stand on those very same rights.

Hypocrites, all of them.

Sorry you've never have the opportunity to live in The Real World, where your neighbors might be Christians (not just your brand), Jews, Buddhists, and/or Muslims.

It teaches you that not everyone thinks exactly like you - that people going home for vacation might be going home for Ramadan, not Christmas. The people might not be celebrating Christmas (!!!!). That when you have a big meeting with fellow Democrats, you need to check the calendar to be sure it's not a High Holy Day.

It's good to broaden your horizons.

Glad there are fewer of your sort every day. I'm relieved to see that all my friends' kids are studying abroad, were they actually meet people who aren't American.

I am a Christian (as in I try to follow what I believe Jesus taught) but reminding the school that it is unconstitutional to have pray at a public school graduation is not stealing free speech. Would the Christians be okay with a Muslim prayer, a Native American chant, or any other religions dogma in place of the "Christian prayer" they would have had? I very much doubt it.

Lmao.

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Christians in name only. Actually they have adopted Randianism.

I'm sure the irony is lost on them but these hate-filled people are the antithesis of what they say they are. What a bunch of screwballs.

This young man is fortunate to have a way out. Very courageous of him, though, to speak out.

and came away with this: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

As Christ said in Bobbie 2:12 "Ifith anyone pisses you off verily feel free to call, text or IM them to threaten their life in my name for I hateth their heretical ass with the fires of a thousand suns along with thee and thy blessed anonymous threatening fellow travelers in Christ. Amen.

I hate the fucking bible belt.

Where'd you read that, the Gospel according to Saint Bastard? :evilgrin:

The Gospel according to St. Bastard. :rofl:

I guess that trumps all the other "love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek", and other such options the Christians get to choose from.

And I take my hat off to a very brave and principled young man who stood up for himself. :patriot:

...and I too salute a very brave and principled young man..Good for him...Graduate and then get the fuck out!!!

any view but their own. This is not a phenomenon limited to "fundies."

and the viciousness of the reaction I somehow doubt it's the Lutherans, Episcopalians or the Catholics behaving in such a troglodytic manner.

or NOT do, as the case may be.

... decrying the religious fanaticism, and asking where all the moderate Christians are in Louisiana, who should be standing with the student against the radicals.

but I wouldn't put it past some Catholic or Missouri/Wisconsin Synod Lutherans to act that way.

not a one in the northeast where I grew up.

and I don't see where they are supporting this young man and the constitution. In cases like this, silence implies approval.

I'm just speaking from an Upper Midwest POV, where Missouri/Wisconsin synod Lutherans are pretty evangelical and conservative and the Episcopalians are pretty mainstream and liberal.

edit: spelling.

that the Episcopalians would be supportive of this young man and the constitution, or would they oppose him, or would they remain silent?

I think there'd be all sorts of liberal Christians from many denominations standing in union with this kid here.

Most Epicopalian churches here are pretty liberal. As are ELCA, a couple of hippie Catholic churches, UUs, Congregationalist, etc.

And I RARELY see christians of any stripe standing up for the Constitution over their beliefs.

I would guess the majority of churches anywhere would be either upset with this kid or disappointed. I guess I just see a lot of extremely liberal churches here in Minneapolis. They march against the wars, in favor of Roe v. Wade, for GLBT rights and marriage equality, etc.

and their beliefs, the Constitution usually takes the back seat.

The only religious organization that I know of that does NOT do this are the Unitarian Universalists. Thats why, as an atheist, I joined my local UU Fellowship last year. My congregation is made up mostly of atheists/humanists/spiritualists who are concerned with equal rights and social justice. There is no dogma to interfere or cause hypocrisy.

"But when it comes to a choice between the Constitution and their beliefs, the Constitution usually takes the back seat."

The congregations I'm talking about would stand with this kid. My own father, a Congregationalist, was a paying member of Americans United for the Separation of Church and state. http://www.au.org/about/

Now, you are correct in believing that there are congregations and members of those congregations who, as you said, would take the back seat approach to the Constitution versus their beliefs, but in my experience with people in the congregations I mentioned, the Constitution and separation of church and state would be their first concern.

house to play because we are atheists. They could only play at their house where the parents would peek in and try to convert my kids. Even the Mormons around here never pulled that crap.

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about the prayer, it seems he and his brother are itching to go on national TV to publicize his oppression.

Here is the kid's own words about why he did this:
"My reasoning behind it is that it's emotionally stressing on anyone who isn't Christian"

Firstly, this kid does not know the minds of all non-Christians nor does he speak for them.

his brother follows with:
"was not expecting this to happen"

Bullshit! This kid knew he was whacking a hornet's nest.

The brother then follows with:
"The only way we can ensure his safety is to grow this to the national level. I'd love to see CNN, BBC, TheDailyShow, Richard Dawkins, and Colbert get on this story. I can't provide safety alone"

And there you have it!

That didn't take long at all!

:eyes:

It's the Christians who are the victims if they cannot have their prayer at a government sponsored event.

and there you have it.


blame a victim strikes DU again.

He's STILL right.

n/t

You say he only has himself to blame for the public's reaction.

By characterising it as a battle between a deliberate, irresponsible disrupter and his community you are clearly implying that he should not have attempted to bring the law to that community.

So whilst you are not precisely denying him his constitutional rights, you clearly indicated that his motives are sufficently impure, that his exercising those rights is irresponsible and by implication that his (or I presume anyone's) exercise of those rights is wrong.

n/t

:shrug:

He is standing up for this country and this Constitution.

That is reason enough.

They want publicity so that he doesn't end up as the anonymous kid's body found in a river. I perfectly understand that.

When these Christians find fault with you, we'll see whether you want to go quietly.

delinquents over something like this.

When my daughter was in school I observed a number of instances of teacher led prayer, I held my peace because I didn't want my daughter to end up in the situation this poor kid is in.

I did say something while visiting my daughter in Springfield Mo. that caused her hubby to roll p the car window and give me a lecture about 'watching my mouth around these parts.

...they belt you with their bibles!

Your "argument" could be used to complain that
throwing Christians to the lions was OK because
they were bucking the system.

Screw you!

Thank you for defending those poor christians.

:crazy:

if he needs constant worshipping.

from the raptured. Besides, I have ballet tickets on June 2 and wouldn't want to miss Giselle.

I'll post a list online of houses available for squating for the homeless in the area. They just have to pay the bills and toss the crosses. And maybe feed the pets.

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Really? We do? All of us?

What is that? Some ancient Chinese secret?


Bumper stickers mean nothing. If your little saying were indeed true, the boy, who has done nothing wrong, would not be threatened. Why isn't the school reaping what is sewed? It cancelled the prayer.



But this is a scene that is played out often. Social crap often attacks common sense.

Really, why don't the Christians go to a church and pray and then go to the graduation. Why is that not a happy choice for them?

That's why praying in a church, on a voluntary basis, isn't a happy choice for them.

You HAVE to have forgotten it. Please...

:woohoo:

constant public performances of Christian-ness. Whether a person is a believer or not, he or she is expected to perform the routine, too. If you don't (because you don't believe in it), you are blathered at and pressured by the true believers, who feel it is their job to "witness" and try to convert you.

I am an agnostic, so although it bothers me, at least it doesn't directly violate my own religious faith (since I don't have one), but for someone who actually does follow a different religion, it really can be stressful to be pressured to publicly participate in worshiping in a way that violates your own faith.

Acording to Christianity's own scriptures, your Christ explicitly warned against those who make a show of praying in public rather than privately, because such public performances are so often the hallmark of a hypocrite:

“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6)(emphasis added).

Matthew 6:5 - 7

5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites : for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Jesus says you must definitely not pray as the hypocrites pray.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Here Jesus says when thou prayest, you must pray this way:
(1) enter into thy closet.
(2) shut the door.
(3) pray to thy Father which is in secret.
(4) use not vain repetitions.

(Prayer must be in private, not in front of other people.
Do not repeat things over and over again in prayer)
An attribute of a true Christian is: He only prays in private, never in public.


Would make a great LTTE in the local paper. The boy is only following the Biblical teachings of Jesus.

They act just like a bunch of rabid monkeys when anyone DARES suggest that they might be wrong. It seems like their faith is so weak and shallow it can't stand up to the slightest bit of criticism.

trying to get national publicity for their cause, too. Shame on them, right? :sarcasm:

(Because I no longer trust DU to recognize sarcasm when it isn't flying a sarcasm flag.)

you want to believe in mythical fucking creatures, do it in your house or "holy temple"

Besides, as a Xtian, I'm more than likely to be offended at what sect of prayer is recited.

No one is preventing a convocation before the ceremony--and of course, prayers would be entirely appropriate there because they are PRIVATE. I went to one when I grjjed HS and one when I grajjed college (and if I ever make it to law school, I will do the same).

The kid is RIGHT. The townspeople could be grownups and wise and just let this go, but because they didn't, I support the kid and his Constitutional rights.

He certainly shouldn't be threatened because he defended his (and others) Constitutional rights.

This story isn't about atheism vs. Christianity or liberal vs. conservative. It's about constitutional rights and human rights and 1 kid's decision to do what's RIGHT rather than what's EASIEST. I applaud him.

He nailed the right wing talking point there.

A member of America's most hated minority is hoping national exposure will help protect him from the Christian threats he is receiving, and you put this kid down. Your hatred is showing.

And that he should have just gone along with it?

when that guy decided to publicly burn a Koran which then lead to rioting and murder, the mood on DU was to attack the guy who did the burning, not the people who did the rioting. Those deaths, it was said were "on his head".

Yet now when an atheist provokes some Christians, nobody here wants to put any of the resulting tumult "on his head".

Can we say "double standard".

The current issue, specifically, I mean.
:shrug:

I was an atheist at graduation, but I still spent a few hours going to my baccalaureate. Also cannot remember if there was a prayer at the graduation ceremonies. The program says "invocation" but I am not sure what that entailed. I think a prayer would have been easier to sit through than the four speakers that we had. In fact I think that by the fourth speaker that I started praying for it to end.

That was probably shorter though, than college graduation at Minnesota, which had over 800 names read. The last person got a standing ovation. If it was up to me, I woulda skipped the whole damn ceremony, but my parents wanted me to go, and I figured I owed them at least that much, since they paid for it.

There are many times in life when one is faced with rigamarole that we'd just as soon avoid. It is wiser to just jump through a few hoops instead of making a federal case out of it.

...its existence.

The community response is a poster child example of why such altercations must be federal cases and why they must be continuously refought.

He was simply standing up for his constitutional rights. They were breaking the law in order to shove religion into everyone's faces. That is provocation.

If the school board doesn't like the constitution they are free to move to a country that follows religious law.

then the law was changed in a very undemocratic way.

Fred Phelps apparently has a Constitutional right to do what he does, but that doesn't make it right.

Also, saying a prayer is a long way from Sharia law.

You think preventing a single instance of enforced prayer (specifically abjured by the founder of the religion) is equivalent to burning a book considered holy (an act specified as blasphemous in that religion)? Wouldn't the equivalent to burning the Koran be, say, chanting blasphemy about the Holy Spiorit rather than saying "hey guys don't force your religion on me"?

And no I am neither more kindly disposed nor more "scared of" Muslims than Christians, an accusation often leveled here. I consider both groups to be equally in thrall to equally silly superstitions. But the acts you mention are NOT equally provoking to these groups (not, btw that I exonerated Muslim rioters after Jones - I blamed both, as both were idiotic)

neither do the results have to be the same for the comparison to work.

Nice of you to drag some other irrelevancies in.

Or not.

At least in the sense that government should have no power to either support or restrict either action.

It is possible that there is someone just as offended at the prevention of the 'single instance of enforced prayer' as someone else is at the burning of a koran. They have a right to be offended. They have a right to speak out about their offense. The government, on the other hand, has no right to intervene in either case.

Some people just don't want to accept this - but the great thing about our society (as laid out in the early days at least) is that everyone has the right to offend everyone else. You don't have the right to prevent someone from doing something that offends you. If you want to get offended about someone burning a book, go right ahead - likewise if you want to get offended by someone standing up for their rights, go right ahead.

at the prevention of the 'single instance of enforced prayer' as someone else is at the burning of a koran.


*******
Exactly!

Which is why no prayer should even be considered. It's the only fair thing to do. The separation of church and state demands it. Like it or not, not everyone is Christian. What if they said Hindu prayers at the graduation?

Just leave religion out of the ceremony. Everyone has time before to pray, or not, as they please.

Religious people seem to LIVE to be offended. They love it!

The law states that no one may impose their belief system on others and that the government may not dictate any individual belief systems, or give any impression of promoting any specific belief systems.

Problems (like the one here) arise when holders of specific belief systems which permit (or demand) their imposition on others, selectively choose to interpret the prohibition against government interference in their belief system as negating any limitations the law places upon them.

You consider the possibility of being prevented from forcing your preference on others to be offensive to any sane person? So it's acceptable to be offended if I cannot make vegetarians eat meat, abstainers guzzle beer, straight people have gay sex? Why are Christians being offended they can't force people to pray any different or any less absurd?

Do you have a right to be offended if you cannot make vegetarians eat meat? Yes you do.
Do you have a right to force them to eat meat? No you do not.

Do christians have a right to be offended if they can't force people to pray? Yes they do.
Do they have a right to force people to pray? No they do not.

Do muslims have a right to be offended if someone burns a koran? Yes they do.
Do they have a right to stop someone from burning a koran? No they do not.

Does someone have a right to be offended if someone else burns a flag? Yes they do.
Do they have a right to stop anyone from burning a flag? No they do not.

Absurdity can not be the measuring stick used to determine if something is right or wrong. It is a subjective measure.

My point was that I don't believe that the relative level of offense generated by an action should be used to determine whether or not government should allow it to happen. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying - but you were making the point that the burning of a koran is more offensive than preventing forced prayer (and therefor should be treated differently). I am saying that both acts should be treated the same - at least as far as government is concerned.

And people have the right to be offended. They just don't have the right to engage in harrassment and death threats.

even tho I think one action does not deserve merit (the burning) while one does (challenging the practice of religion in a constitutionally-protected space.)

...specific intention of inciting riot and murder in response, with the further intention of using that riot and murder to claim the moral high ground and use the "facts" of riot and murder as reason to curtail those who would stoop to engaging in "riot and murder".

The INTENDED outcome was violence, unreasoning violence.


The kid simply asked that his school not victimise him (and others) by breaking the law mandating separation of church and state. And the community response is the FUCKING REASON FOR THAT SEPARATION.


There is no tumult to place upon on this kid's head.

There is no double standard.


There is YOU and Vinnie and a whole lot more playing silly sophistry games. George Bush is not the only one to wipe his arse on that "Goddamned piece of paper" in this "preapocalyptic world".

is the same thing as burning someone's holy book in public?

Ya know, if the kid had burned a Bible in the middle of town and people reacted violently, I wouldn't have a whole lot of sympathy for him. He would have been engaging in naked provocation, knowing what the probable results would be. That wouldn't make it right, but it would make his situation a good deal less sympathetic.

But to say that asking the school to uphold the law and respect the rights of minorities is the same thing as if he burned a Bible in the middle of town? You're really equating the two?

I guess that the black kids who tried to go to schools in the South during desegregation, or tried to eat at lunch counters, were just engaging in provocations and got what was coming to them as well. :crazy:

You spout off this crap and then wonder why "Christians" sometimes aren't treated all that respectfully here?

get a police escort for the ceremony, or skip his graduation. publicity would be a good thing; shine the light.

back when I graduated years ago. It made me very uncomfortable. Wish someone like this kid had spoken up then. It's pretty lame to twist this around as being nothing but a publicity stunt or to assume that others aren't secretly happy the prayer is gone from graduation.

This is America where everyone is free to worship (or not) as they please. It should NEVER be forced on anyone. It's pretty stupid to assume every student at any school in the US adheres to one religion.

shoved down their throats. If his brother is attending a public school then he has a right not to have religion imposed upon him at graduation. I work for a state agency in a bible belt state and you can believe that there is no separation of church and state here. There are some group gatherings at work that I chose to stay away from because of the religion issue.

I would not be surprised if he has received death threats. Where I live, gun owners are a bunch of blood thirsty people, just take a look at the Jerome Ersland trial that is getting ready now that the jury has been chosen. Two young boy tried to rob a pharmacy and Ersland shot the unarmed boy while the boy with the gun took off. Ersland chased him out the door came back in, walked by the downed boy (turning his back on the downed kid in the process) to get a second gun. Ersland then pumped 5 bullets into the abdomen of the kid resulting in the death of the kid. The DA's office determined that the first shot was justifiable and the remaining shots murder. People around here want to give the guy a medal. If you look at the video of incident it was clear that the dead kid was no real threat (he was trying to get his mask on over his head the whole time and both hands were up by his head. Based upon a rational review of the video and facts Ersland should be charged but I will be surprised if the DA gets a conviction.

you just cut right to it.

"My reasoning behind it is that it's emotionally stressing on anyone who isn't Christian."

Bull. If your little feelings are too sensitive to deal with whatever other people are saying then invest in some earplugs.

Weak weak weak.. oh and attention whoring...

but it's the attention whore's fault.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The article says that the school talked to their lawyers. It doesn't say that their lawyers said that to let the students pray would have been illegal, The high-schooler claims it was against the law. He's not an officer of the court in communication with the court.

There was some ambiguity a number of years back and I didn't watch to see how it was resolved. How the balance between freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion played out stopped being of immediate concern to me.

The ambiguity was that even at a school sponsored event you could have activities that weren't directly controlled or sponsored by the school. Therefore, as long as the prayer was the students' idea and student led then it wasn't a school activity per se. Sort of the same idea that you could have a student group meet in the cafeteria for prayer without its being a state sponsored prayer group. I don't know how that played out.

However, along the way school districts ran up millions of dollars in legal fees before that level of ambiguity was worked out. Now, you're a school district and likely to be cutting teachers next year. Some kid comes along and threatens to take you to court, at no cost to himself, but in litigation that will chew up hundreds of man-hours and likely many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars. You may lose in court; you may win in court, but in either event you have to lay off an additional teachers so you still lose.

Take my school district when I was a kid. The real atheist/religion culture war was just heating up, with lots and lots of lawsuits trying to rein in religious practices. My junior high banned the Bible. We were told that if a teacher saw one she'd had to confiscate it. If they had to open your locker for some reason and there was a Bible in it, they'd confiscate it. The school district made the junior high a Bible-free zone. It was removed from the school library. One kid defied the ban one day and took a Bible out of her bookbag before English class and merely laid it, unopened, on the corner of her desk. The teacher pounced upon it, confiscated it, and the student was immediately sent to the principal's office. A few weeks later she did the same thing again. The teacher nearly snarled at her, sent her to the office, and the student was back a few minutes later; the principal told the teacher to return the Bible. Her parents had contacted a religious group who had a lawyer who pointed out that the threat of litigation went both ways. The school board's lawyers had looked at a decision, under appeal, and extrapolated the implications in order to avoid the possibility of a law suit. The lawyers had played it too safe in one direction; the lawyers hadn't realized that in playing it too safe in avoiding lawsuits from atheists that they had gone far beyond what even the court-imposed law in the state implied and had opened itself up to a radically different kind of lawsuit. The district backed down; the student's Bible confiscation was, as the CPSU would have put it, a "provocation"--and the second incident was to check to see if the school board had really backed down as it said it would. They'd notified the principals, but nobody told the teachers. *Reading* the Bible, even between classes or during lunch, was still banned. But the school year was drawing to a close. The following year the Bible was back in the library, and anybody who wanted to read a Bible in school could. The lawyers had more time to consider the court cases; the courts had rendered more verdicts in saying what the Constitution had really meant for the previous 180 years and what the legislators had really intended the decades old laws to entail.

Don't know how it would go these days.

"The ambiguity was that even at a school sponsored event you could have activities that weren't directly controlled or sponsored by the school. Therefore, as long as the prayer was the students' idea and student led then it wasn't a school activity per se. Sort of the same idea that you could have a student group meet in the cafeteria for prayer without its being a state sponsored prayer group. "

There is no ambiguity. The law and precedence is clear. A religious group may be run and run on school property BUT not a single school employee can be involved in it in ANY way. This is not the case in a graduation ceremony where faculty, staff and administration are present and take part in it. If the graduation ceremony had zero staff in any way shape or form involved then you would have a point.

then invest in a megachurch and some TV time.

Weak, persecution-complex-derived drivel. Oh, and god-whoring.

How dare he assert his civil rights and ask that an institution of the state comply with state and federal laws!

THAT is the point. It is also against State law, did you miss that part? Oh and the thin-skinned ones here are the god-botherers that are threatening the kid that dared to stand up for his rights...why do they care if their god is so all powerful, why is he so twitchy about one small ceremony?

Alrighty then. That's one "against".

go hand in hand in this country. When's the last time some fundie hag hasn't gone to the media as soon as their little prayer breakfast was denied.

We could use a president that defends the constitution no matter if those that don't agree with him will act out.

:thumbsdown:

and you put this kid down. Is that really the kind of person you want to be? I doubt it; pick up your knuckles.

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'attention whoring' indeed.

Whatever you say.

Standing up for the constitution is your definition of weak? I see.

I wonder what you classify then, the worship of a fake being with no proof whatsoever, who's the epitome of ridiculous contradictions, evil, and tyranny, just because one is afraid to handle life alone, take responsibility, and deal with the fact that death is most likely it and there are no fucking cloud filled country clubs to lounge in.

What do you classify that, sir? I sincerely wonder.

All my life, which is longer than most here, I have yielded politely to the Christian bullies. In a group event when someone says, "lets all bow our heads and have some words with our Lord". I have always been polite and went along. Never once did they say, "do any non-Christians have anything they would like to say?". I dont mind one bit if Christians want to bow and pray, jump and shout, or roll in the isles, but for God's sake do it when you are with others that agree with your ideology. Praying in a group with non-Christians is just plan bully tactics. Jesus would not approve.

You are more than willing to crap on the rights of others just as long as yours are defended properly.

Typical hypocrite.

Now, having said that, just invest in some earplugs.

What an evil, evil bitch. If there were any justice in the world, she'd lose her job.

What a small-minded person she must be to say something like that...

She's purposely trying to hurt, denigrate, and belittle a child. I don't care how pissed she is--that is flat-out abusive. She shouldn't be allowed near ANYONE'S child in the future. She's a seriously fucking sick woman.

...

:shrug:

they should be able to hold their own pretty good. by their very definition.

http://www.bastropenterprise.com/features/x2132687894/Student-challenges-prayer-at-Bastrop-graduation


This kid is being persecuted.

I hope they set up a scholarship fund for him, because
I'll send him some money toward his education, seeing
as how his MOTHER has disowned him over this.

Rock On, Damon!

"I agree. Nothing should be done to offend anyone regardless of their beliefs."

vs.

"I disagree. The student should respect the desires of their fellow students."

"I agree. Nothing should be done to offend anyone regardless of their beliefs."

Bet that phrasing would be different were a student demanding equal billing for the Church of Satan?

Poll
How do you feel about a student at Bastrop High School stating they were an atheist and pledging to contact the American Civil Liberties Union if a Christian prayer were offered at the school's graduation on May 19?

Thank you for your vote.
I agree. Nothing should be done to offend anyone regardless of their beliefs. 53%
I disagree. The student should respect the desires of their fellow students. 32%
No opinion. 14%
Total votes: 641

If you would like to participate, note that the poll is on the right hand side - halfway down the page at this site:

http://www.bastropenterprise.com/

:kick:

*carefully marks it down* That's two then.

:hi:

Illegal, forced prayer.

You need to get over YOUR power trip.

Yes, the constitution says that government (in this case a school) should/must not perform religious rituals like a prayer. It is NOT forced. No one is saying pray or you lose your diploma.

ETA - I agree with the student and applaud his courage and his decision to speak up. Im on your side on this one :hi:

hell yeah and hallelujah!

Yeah. Who's power-tripping over who again?

in their graduation speech, would you say, "Let it go on and get over it?"

They are giving tribute to a serial murderer, fictional though he nmay be.

;)

If it is legal, especially in this area of the country, it is very likely that the majority religion will be overrepresented in public offices and at public functions. Further, people of religions other than the majority religion have very good reason to believe that their community will end up discriminating against them on religious grounds should one particular religious group hold sway over local government.

This is true no matter which religion happens to be worshiped the most and is what naturally follows when government gives even the suggestion that one religion is more favored from an official stance. This is why we have to keep religion and state strictly separate- so government and the public square can be fairly accessible to all.

:sarcasm:

People are sick of kowtowing to the Jesus freaks.

So much for the Constitution, huh?

because of prayer at graduations? Hyperbole much?

because it's 110% hyperbole

You may be right. Perhaps the religious can start us off....

in other cases "civil disobedience" is the promoted idea here. DU can be a strange fucking place!

civil disobedience into this.

You seem to have made it clear that you do not approve of this young man's actions and that he should have just "gone on with it." Having a public prayer is NOT a right, you know. I guess I just don't understand your opposition. Can you better explain?

Hint: It's not "civil disobedience" when the government does it.

Oh, maybe you meant the death threats? That's not "civil disobedience" either.

Really. What the fuck ARE you talking about???

but, they do so at the peril of lawsuits which would no doubt be filed against them, and won.

Why is it that Christians must try to inject their beliefs and their prayers into everything? Why is it such a big deal to NOT have a public prayer at a taxpayer funded event? I just don't understand your reasoning for being in support of this. If a muslim group wanted to say a prayer at a graduation, would you still feel this same way?

If Churches want their prayers said on the taxpayer's dime, then they should pay taxes. Anything short of that is stupid.

In other words, the way the Constitution spells it out clearly already.

Please explain.

Now quit your bitch-ass Christian Death Cult whining.

bashing the Christians.

They do try to control people's lives, ya know.

--imm

What some people understand about history....

:eyes:

WTF is wrong with you people who are actually not worried about upholding the constitution???

Is that even remotely OK?

otherwise we'll never be able to put a stop to the pervasive, anti-Christian bigotry in this country. :eyes:

Hilarious.

Bet you'd change your tune if the school administration made your kid bow to Mecca and pray to Allah before getting their diploma.


"Let the prayer go on and get over it", indeed.

Religious hypocrites have no problem with prayer being forced on them by government entities, just as long as it's THEIR prayer being used.

At best you'll get a couple of mealy mouthed "that would be OK" lies from those who know full well it would never happen. But the rational out there know what happens when kids are even taught about other religions (it ain't just atheists complaining), let alone forced to follow their rites. Only Xians get to do that

I'm sorry, is there a church shortage in this country I was unaware of? The tax-exempt status they have is making it too difficult to build them, perhaps?

How DARE he point out that the school district is breaking the law! It's FAR more important that we mutter a few useless words towards our diety!

That said, the kid is learning an important lesson here. Doing the right thing often has consequences. A hero is a person who knows that the consequences may be grave, but does the right thing anyway.

Not at those so-called "Christians" in that stupid town.

I'm so sick of this crap. They can pray on their own damn time and not subject other people to their futile pleadings to a non-existent cloud fairy.

He's an invisible bipolar sky-daddy, dammit! :evilgrin:

I'm starting a crusade against your kind. To the iron maiden with you!

:headbang:

:D

:rofl::spray::rofl:

and idiots who give religion a bad, bad name.