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Much Death and Destruction in Tornado Alley is painful, tragic, but also SHAMEFULLY PREVENTABLE.

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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:22 AM
Original message
Much Death and Destruction in Tornado Alley is painful, tragic, but also SHAMEFULLY PREVENTABLE.
Edited on Tue May-24-11 06:28 AM by Distant Observer
There is no good reason for so many people to suffer and die in tornado season. Every building could have at least some basement area or part of its structure that is secure. Building codes and practices could be changed to promote sustainable materials and designs so that whole structures would be more tornado proof.

Four years ago I was part of a sustainable development research group that looked at exactly the issues that are coming to the fore in this tornado season -- forecast of extreme weather resulting from climate change; the need to move from stick-frame structures to concrete and steel frame and alternative, more sustainable, building materials.

In Europe, Asia and even in some poor developing countries, codes and practices are being implemented in risk zones.

The solutions are there. But in the US a massive lumber and construction industry lobby stands relentlessly in the way.

The reason why people die in hurricanes and tornadoes is a simple cost-benefit analysis in the construction industry: the probability of a building being destroyed by a tornado is small enough that it is more cost-effective to support a tornado insurance industry than to change to more sustainable building practices.

What is not considered in the industry equation is the Human Cost in lives and personal trauma and suffering. That will become a significant consideration only as voters begin to make the political class pay for decades of dancing with the industry lobbyists -- on the graves of more and more "accidental" victims of their business strategies.

http://architecture.about.com/cs/buildyourhouse/a/concretehomes.htm


Concrete Homes Withstand Storms
Wind testing shows how concrete walls hold up in a hurricane




Researchers for the Wind Engineering Research Center at Texas Tech University say that concrete walls are strong enough to withstand flying debris from hurricanes and tornadoes. According to their findings, homes made of concrete are much more storm-resistant than houses constructed of wood and steel.

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Beefier_Building_Codes_Helped_Some_Florida_Homes_Survive_Tornados_999.html


Beefier Building Codes Helped Some Florida Homes Survive Tornados


In many cases, changes such as reinforced garage doors and stronger roof connections in homes less than 10 years old helped keep them from collapsing.
In many cases, changes such as reinforced garage doors and stronger roof connections in homes less than 10 years old helped keep them from collapsing.
by Staff Writers
Lubbock TX (SPX) Feb 26, 2007
Wind-mitigating building codes implemented in Florida following Hurricane Andrew helped some houses resist a string of deadly tornadoes that hit the state earlier this month, says a wind researcher who surveyed the damage. Larry Tanner, a civil engineering research associate with Texas Tech University’s Wind Science and Engineering Research Center, studied the wreckage wrought Feb. 2 by a devastating string of storms that killed 20 people in Central Florida.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. This was proved (almost) 20 years ago
When the damage from Hurricane Andrew was assessed, it was only the cheap construction in poorer neighborhoods where damage was common. The same winds passing over the upper-end homes, often built to exceed the minimum the code required, did far less damage.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. how is it that the Walmart was flattened? And what about older homes and buildings-
quite a few of them historical buildings? And do you force people to build concrete homes?
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I saw one person who had a brick home in Joplin and it was flattened. And, as you pointed out
Edited on Tue May-24-11 06:45 AM by groovedaddy
about Wal-Mart, a number of buildings with steel super-structure's were flattened. My sister and her husband lived in St. Croix, USVI and rode out hurricane Hugo in their rented home. The front half was frame and was blown away. The back half was cinderblock and stayed standing. The roof had hurricane pins but was still blown off. Wind gusts on the island were clocked at 213 mph.
If you're in a tornado prone area, having a basement or storm cellar makes sense.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Concrete and Steel with solid foundation WILL SURVIVE A TORNADO
Design is important, but building material largely determines survival of structure and saving of lives in a tornado.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. Tell it to the walmarts and homedepots and st josephs that got leveled.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. Fail for "WILL" when "can" is the term.
And simply posting CAPS doesn't make something true.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
50. Nothing WILL survive a tornado,
There is no guaranteed building design or building material that will survive a tornado. I've seen reinforced concrete buildings go down in a heap of rubble. Contrariwise, I've seen mobile homes survive a direct hit without being harmed(granted, that was a one time thing).

The reason for this is because tornadoes pack a lot of variables that simply can't be planned for. Extremely, explosively low pressure, the power of tornado, the path it takes, how much debris it is carrying, all of this and more.

The best thing that you can do is build a building with a basement, a place that people can take shelter. This used to be a given here in tornado alley, but over the past twenty years we've seen a rash of slab foundations get build, and that is what is causing the deaths. Hopefully people will learn from this and start building houses with basements.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. +1000 for CBS
We had to search awhile to find a CBS home here in NE FL (there are more common from central FL and south FL), but when we did we bought it. It is all concrete block construction with metal studs. The roof, windows and garage door will probably blow out but the block structure should remain. I know there are hurricane-proof garage doors but they are very pricey.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. Myth. Hurricanes can and do level CBS. I've seen it with my own two eyes.
The people hyping CBS are realtors, and the concerete industry.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Engineered Lightweight concrete block with steel (AAC) has been promoted
in various parts of Europe, Russia and China in new developments in earthquake and typhoon zones. This material is now being widely used in the Arabian Gulf states for both residential and skyscrapers. German firms own most of the patents for automated highly engineered AAC plants but many Chinese firm have adapted (ripped-off) the technology and are selling AAC factories throughout third-world earthquake zones.

Wood-frame is fundamentally susceptible to tornado damage regardless of whether the structure is a cabin or a Wallmart shopping center. There are some techniques to better secure a wood-frame structure, but they are still relatively high-risk shelter in the path of tornado.

http://www.aercreteadvantagellc.com/index.html
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bighart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. No large retail structure is wood frame.
They are block and steel.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Quite sure the Walmart that collapsed could not have been Steel frame and concrete
That is what I was referring to. These 1 story structures will have steel beams, but if much of the structure is standard lumber, ply and sheet-rock, then the wind will rip it apart.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yeah, and the hospital was built from cardboard.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
66. Notice that the hospital structure survived and people inside were relatively secure
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bighart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Sorry you are incorrect.
Walmart stores are built on a concrete slab, walls are block all the way around and the roof is steel trusses supported by steel columns. First had experience, I know what I am talking about here.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
68. True Concrete and Steel method are almost never used for typical single-story
shopping malls. So I am not fully sure what you are describing. If it is just a big box with not internal solid walls and the typical butler roof then obviously the first thing to go would be the roof via the suction. The walls would collapse if there is any dependence on the roofing structure for building integrity.

These are all design issues. The fact is that there are good building designs that provide security for occupants during a tornado or cat 5 hurricane. This is well established.
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. From what I understand
Is that larger buildings with large roof spans are particularly susceptible to collapse during a tornado. If there were many interior rooms in that same building, along with some support walls in the interior, it would be less likely to collapse. It's the large, unsupported roof span that does it.
I don't think most of those buildings are concrete anyway. Many use steel beam construction, but the 'concrete' on the outside is usually just some kind of veneer. Veneer of conrete or brick is useless.
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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. I wouldn't use Walmart as an example of anything.
Those buildings are throw-away junk. Not to mention the large spans and surface areas.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
71. The slabs are still there, aren't they?
Put the building UNDER the slab, it will be there too. Well, probably.

--imm
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. Absolutely agreed
This has been something I've been bothered about for a long time, after having conversations with a friend in tornado alley who had no basement or reinforced interior room and we'd spend hours chatting (her on her laptop) when she had warnings at night and was in her closet. How is it possible, in this day and age, that there is NO building codes requiring at least one reinforced concrete room in a building with no basement? We know it saves lives. Siding, plywood and sheetrock is absolutely useless against projectiles even if you don't take a direct hit from a tornado. There are many new home plans that have that center, reinforced concrete room built in, why is it not required for new home construction? It leaves me absolutely flabbergasted. I like the idea of a whole home being contructed in concrete. My ex and I had planned on doing that (he was in the concrete business) before we split. Most concrete-form homes can withstand up to an f-3 tornado. I think that would be the way to go, also, but as was said, there are powerful lumber lobbies around. That and homes built like that tend to cost more. I guess, once again, it comes down to cost/profit vs human lives.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. This is great input from you personal experience. Thanks. Stick-Frame structures are death-traps
in hurricane zones much less in tornado alley.
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Phentex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
55. That's the kicker...
Who Will Pay For This?

Not the homeowner apparently or they would.

Who should pay for it?
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
63. My partner and I have been discussing this for some time
Building codes in tornado-prone areas should be written so that all new construction requires either a basement (cellar) or safe room in all new builds. Period! People who own older homes should get tax breaks for constructing storm cellars of safe rooms in existing structures.

I simply cannot believe how many new homes, some quite large, are being constructed without basements or any kind of safe room. My partner, who's from Texas, says it's quite common for homes down there to be built on slabs. I'm just not used to that -- where I'm from, all the old homes have cellars and basements so at least you have somewhere to go during a tornado.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
69. More and more F-4 and F-5 tornadoes are predicted.
What construction will stand up to them, I wonder?

And sadly, housing construction now is in the doldrums.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. This needs to be parroted to save lives
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
14. As with everything it is all about cost. Very few could afford a steel frame house. When was the
last tornado in Joplin? I am sure they are just playing the odds, like most of the towns in tornado alley. These storms are particularly strong this year.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
64. A steel frame house isn't necessary...
... if the important thing is saving lives rather than property. Frankly, I wouldn't live in a home that didn't have a basement or safe room. There are a lot of fancy new homes being built every day that have neither. Building codes need to be changed in tornado-prone areas. As for older homes, homeowners should get major tax incentives to retrofit their homes with a storm cellar or safe room.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
16. Doesn't make sense.
Hurricanes occur fairly regularly and cover a large area, so it makes sense to build EVERYTHING a certain way.

Most people in the midwest will never actually see or experience a tornado in their entire lives, and even when they do hit they usually will not wipe out an entire town, they'll hit a few hundred homes and that's it.

Also, why force something on people who have a choice? I know plenty of people here in Missouri and in Arkansas who have plenty of money and have chosen to buy houses with no basement. I wouldn't do it personally but that's what some people want. Consumers could easily force builders to start building everything with basements by not buying houses without them, but that isn't what the buying public wants.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. What I am saying is just part of basic building practice in many countries
Edited on Tue May-24-11 10:19 AM by Distant Observer
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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Sounds like a distant observation
hahaha, put intended.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I built houses in Africa, the Caribean and remodeled 2 in California
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Yeah, he's all about "free market" and "personal responsibility".
:think:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
20. And again I ask
are you okay with strip-mining great portions of the country (mostly in Texas, it seems) to get at the limestone necessary to make all this concrete? Not to mention the increased use of fossil fuels to mine, transport, treat (with natural-gas-fired kilns) and then transport again as mixed concrete. Plus the damage done to the aquifers by the mining, aquifers that stretch far beyond the reaches of surface limestone, affecting residents not anywhere near the strip mines.

There are plenty of construction methods that are strong and don't rely on excessive measures to produce. Yes, building codes need to be changed, and I'm all for that, partly, too, because developers are the ones writing the laws for (or against) us. But not at the expense of making the environment worse for all, including the air and climate.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Much of Europe, Russia, China, the Caribbean has moved away from pure Wood-Frame

Look at all the development in Europe, Middle East and China that has moved to Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (uses 1/5th the material as regular poured concrete) precisely because the environmental benefits are great and resources are available -- mainly silica sand, which is in vast abundance in many places.

http://www.eaaca.org/eaaca/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. I didn't mention wood-frame.
But concrete of any kind still requires lime, and you can only get that from limestone. If this country were to go to the kind of building construction you're talking about, we'd need plenty of limestone. Even at one-fifth, that's still a huge amount for a country with a population of 300 million. Or are you not taking that part into consideration?

As the others have stated, I'm also wary of CBS construction, primarily for the part about the walls falling on people. Or for that matter, falling on your entrance to your storm cellar and then you can't get out.

For those of us in hurricane areas it's not the winds that are the main killer but the storm surge. As we saw in Japan, a sufficiently massive amount of water isn't stopped by much, including concrete.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. I live in tornado alley and would never live in a house without a basement
I don't understand it at all.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. If the water table is too close to the surface,
it's either not feasible to build them, or too expensive.

Any time a swimming pool is built around here, they have to keep a portable pump on hand or the hole will fill up with water, preventing the construction.

Perhaps one of the better housing designs would be an "earthship" or "underground" house, even though most are not so much underground as single-story with earth mounded over. They often have reinforced or rammed-earth walls inside. Seems like they would be best in tornado and hurricane-prone areas.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. I find that crazy
People build a swimming pool but no basement??
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Considering that a swimming pool is then filled with water
not to mention the fact that a swimming pool doesn't use the same kind of construction method as a basement (gunite concrete compared to cinder block or concrete curtain walls.) It's not really a good comparison at which to be surprised. Basements can still leak, but you're only concerned about water getting in not out, as with a pool ;)
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pstokely Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. They do in California
nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. California isn't in tornado alley
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Or if you're close to bedrock
Around here, you have to blast in order to have a basement, so unless you're only going to build houses for the wealthy or on hills, no basements. Underground housing is not feasible for the same reason.
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RayOfHope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
49. People have replied to you about this over and over. All of tornado alley is not like KC
Basements in every house aren't feasable. The ground here sucks. Basements are expensive. While *you* personally may be in a position to live/afford a home with a basement, many many people aren't. It just isn't an option for everyone.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
25. Not only can tornados and hurricanes destroy concrete & CBS buildings when they DO fall, they squash
Edited on Tue May-24-11 10:47 AM by Shagbark Hickory
and kill its inhabitants.
Remember Haiti last year? Ok
I lived through several major hurricanes. I have seen them flatten CBS structures.

The key to surviving a tornado is early warning and perhaps underground fortified shelters.

The key to surviving a hurricane is to GTFO in advance of the storm.

And you go mandating a code like concrete homes and see how fast it prices people out of their homes and creates a shortage of materials.

The aftermath kills a lot of people too getting electricuted. Reed Timmer wannabees driving around chasing storms also purposely put themselves at high risk of death.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. This is not 1911 but 2011. There is a global industry for modern light secure building material and
construction designs.

It has not been implemented for the most part in the US because the Lumber and construction lobby has
fought tooth and nail to stop it.

Here is like to green building light-weight concrete that is being used widely in Europe an now promoted in many parts of the world with hurricane and earthquake risks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wyDmuAzaWg&feature=related

BTW, was just in Haiti and a cheaper version of AAC approach, CLC, is being prototyped to replace the defective building practices -- no steel, mortor which was mainly sand and dirt -- that resulted in Haiti disaster.

http://www.worldhandsalliance.com/phase-two.html
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. Since you were just in Haiti, please describe the condition of the wood frame buildings compared to
Edited on Tue May-24-11 06:13 PM by Shagbark Hickory
the concrete buildings.

I'm sure you noticed there were wood frame buildings standing next to piles of concrete rubble, did you not?
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
29. At 190 mph winds, it is extremely difficult to protect against
Maybe people want to live in concrete houses. However, it is extremely difficult to design a building that can withstand the 190 mph winds that hit Joplin.

This morning on CNN, they showed that at those wind speeds, a wood post can piece a solid brick wall.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Technically, there is one way of keeping even a board from piercing
a wall, but it's expensive as it requires the construction of two reinforced walls, one behind the other. The first wall takes most of the momentum out of the board while the second wall stops it the rest of the way.

But boards don't just go in horizontally. Those winds are going around every which way, including straight down. A tornado-proof building would be more like an underground bunker than a "house" ;)
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Yes, if you peruse the photos of the aftermath of the Joplin tornado...
Edited on Tue May-24-11 11:06 AM by MilesColtrane
you can clearly see bricks and cinder blocks from homes that were blown apart.

And, what does the OP recommend as the survivability standard?

The Jarrell EF5 pulled plumbing out of concrete slabs, tore engine blocks out of cars, asphalt off of roads, and gouged a trench out of the ground a foot and half deep.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. A 190 mph wind, exposure class C (open terrain)
would result in a wind pressure 90 psf (that's pounds per square foot) at 20 feet above grade. That's one hell of a bending moment to deal with, short of using concrete with reinforced steel. That tends to cost a lot, which is why only large, critical buildings tend to get it at all.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. In many countries all building foundations and basements are steel and concrete
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
30. K& swallowed R -nt
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pstokely Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. The ground is hard in Joplin
It was cheaper to build homes without a basement
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. Right. The bottom-line profit has been the issues. I many countries people build on solid rock
and still put up secure structures -- either foundations and basements cut into the rock or concrete and steel residential structures that withstand CAT 5 hurricane.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. I highly doubt this.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. What do you doubt. There are reports on trade-offs - secure building cost vs insurance costs
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. In many countries people are paid shit
A coworker went to our company's office in Mexico. When walking for lunch, he saw three people with pickaxes tearing up a sidewalk. He asked our employee from Mexico why they don't use a jackhammer. He was told it is MUCH cheaper to pay people with pickaxes.

It is much easier to do what you are proposing when labor if 50 cents an hour. While I get what you are saying, expect to price a LOT of people out of ever having a home.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. I read somewhere that alternative building method would cost about 5% more
for a typical residential house.

Not much more for the final cost. BUT A BIG PIECE OF THE BUILDER'S PROFIT MARGIN.

That is the basic issue when there is not building code with minimum requirements for
structural survivability.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
45. We need to start designing more rounded, aerodynamic structures.


Thanks for the thread, Distant Observer.
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. This is exactly right. Design for the environment.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
52. We should be striving for better building codes in tornado valley
This is a no brainer. Why wouldn't we want stronger, more secure dwellings in states that are prone to tornadoes? I'm not going to say that these improved codes will stop all destruction (especially in Joplin where the tornado reached EF5 (http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=460717), but it would help.
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TNLib Donating Member (683 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
53. I honestly think the building codes need to be better in the south to with stand tornadoes
Homes in Florida and California have higher code standards and seem to fare far better in disasters than we do here in the south. I lived through the North Ridge earthquake in LA and 57 people died.
117 people died yesterday and a month before we lost several hundred in Alabama, TN, and GA.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. I think you are underestimating the power of these storms
Edited on Thu May-26-11 08:27 AM by Chris_Texas
You cannot build homes to withstand them. I mean, theoretically, sure, but at a cost that would make the typical McMansion look seem like a cardboard box.

The real problem (in my opinion) is not the construction standards for homes that will likely never see anything like this (even if they stand for centuries), or even the lack of storm shelters or basements (very very few homes in my town have them), and we have been hit by two very mild tornadoes in the last 4 years (including my house just two weeks ago -- minor damage, the roof will need to be replaced).

The problem is the lack of warning. Information disemination.

I have my own perfect tornado shelter. It's called my CAR. I watch the weather and pay attention. There is ALWAYS warning, usually many hours ahead of time, that potentially deadly weather is on the way. before it gets to me I hop in my car and drive out of the way. Two nights ago we drove south of town and watched a tornado trying to form back to the north of us (very cool to see by the way, freaking scary!). We were 100% safe. We knew where the storms were coming from and going to. And my advice to anyone, watch your radar and if a dangerous storm is heading towards your town, forget the bathroom or closet and LEAVE.

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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. That is totally NOT practical
If everyone did as you say, the roads would be clogged with panicked people. That's just what you need, some highway filled with cars getting hit with a tornado.

Some in the scientific community have speculated that warning times for tornadoes have reached as far as they can go, for now. There are too many variables that they still do not understand. There is a possibility they will not be able to be predicted accurately more than a half hour or hour in advance even if they do understand more. The only practical way to save lives at this point is to require safe rooms in all public buildings and new home construction.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
58. Try digging a basement in the hard clay of Mississippi
Almost no houses in MS have basements because the clay is too damn hard and it shifts. Hell, most of the homes there have foundation problems because of the "creeping Yazoo clay."

Bake
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Here you go. Standard practice in many countries -- required by code
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. Sure, you can do that.
And add another $50K - $75K to the cost of a house. What good is it if no one can afford it - except the rich, of course.

Bake
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Distant Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. Do you have a reference. My data shows concrete and steel affordable house in Mexico
for less that $100k. As I said, cost depends on changes to standard construction
practice.
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