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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:11 PM
Original message
Circumstantial Evidence can prove anyone did anything
Physical Evidence, however, can only point to the truth

Yeah, Physical Evidence is rare, but if we are going to put someone to death, or lock them up for life - I'd rather we knew for sure, rather than thought "she/he probably did it."

Remember the Ramseys? Circumstantial evidence could have "proved" they killed Jon Benet. Only they didn't. Many years later, and after the death of the mother (and everyone from South Park to Larry King KNOWING they killed her) we find out that, gee - I guess they DIDN'T do it.

But by then it was too late.

Fuck circumstantial evidence.

It can be used to prove anything.
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed. n/t
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Don't Talk to Police
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. What about circumcision evidence?
All you need to convict is a tip.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Nyuk Nyuk
LOL
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. There's no need to be an extremist one way or the other
Circumstantial evidence is sometimes very compelling, and leads to findings of truth. Other times, as in this Casey Anthony case, it is woefully inadequate, when not deliberately twisted and contrived by prosecutors. It is case dependent, as our system well-recognizes: the nature and connections, and validity, and quality and quantity of the circumstantial evidence is what makes it valuable or not.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. There are cases where circumstantial evidence leads to truth, see Larissa Schuster's case.
But the OP wasn't saying circumstantial evidence isn't useful, as far as I understood.

Larissa Schuster got convicted on very compelling circumstantial evidence (her company bought a lot of acid and a steel barrel, which the victim was found in).

Here's an interesting read if you aren't aware of the case: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/larissa-schuster/1-a-joyful-married-life.html

There was a confession by her cohort but it wasn't allowed, so they had to build a case entirely from the ground up even though they did know unquestionably that she did it.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hans Reiser is another good one, where he showed the body after a time. Got 15 years to life.
He'll probably get out in 15, possibly 20 tops.

Wikipedia has good coverage of the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser

Apparently a lot of the evidence had to be thrown out or was insufficient (DNA was poorly dealt with, etc). He took the stand, though (thinking he could outsmart the prosecutor?) and it put a nail in his story to the point where he basically decided to make a plea deal after the guilty sentence. I was actually surprised that they went with the plea deal, myself, but apparently in missing body cases it's fairly common.

Still can't believe I have an email from him a long time ago archived somewhere. Creepy.
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't know about that
I have a feeling that the tv shows such as CSI, NCIS are introducing a level of physical evidence that in real life is impossible to do. Juries may be expecting that level of evidence though.
If all it takes is for the body to be so decomposed that one cannot tell cause of death, and there are no first hand witnesses to a crime, then we are in big trouble.
If my child is dead and later found in a swamp and my car smells like a dead body - even according to parents - I would say that is convincing circumstanial evidence that when linked with more evidence is compelling.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. In Europe, the rule is 'No body, no crime'
While that may be an oversimplification, in the end it ensures (at least on one level) that no one is wrongly convicted

Of course, go tell that to Amanda Knox
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. Most convictions rely on circumstantial evidence to a greater or lesser degree.
Eye witnesses are rare. Scott Peterson sits on death row on far less evidence than was presented against Anthony. The Ramsey case was reopened late last year. We will see if anything results.
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WheelWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. And eye witnesses can be wrong
as to who and or what was seen.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Yes, both eyewitness evidence and confession evidence
can be notoriously unreliable.

A surprising number of cases later reversed by physical (e.g. DNA) evidence included confessions by the innocent suspect. There are a lor of reasons for this, including certain police techniques, suggestible suspects, etc.
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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think you mean "direct evidence", not physical evidence. Physical evidence is also usually...
circumstantial. Fingerprints and DNA found at a scene are, in fact, circumstantial evidence.
If only direct evidence is used then only those people who are witnessed doing a crime, by eye witnesses would be convicted.
And eye witness testimony isn't 100% either.

Almost all evidence is circumstantial, be it physical evidence or otherwise.
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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. DNA. Fingerprints. Balistic testing. blood typing. all circumstantial. eom
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. It probably can, but...
that's where a mixture of logic and intuition come in, I think.

Circumstantial evidence in the Casey Anthony case, but...

Logic says the child didn't kill herself.

Logic also says nobody kidnapped her and killed her because otherwise her mother would have reported her missing.

Is it logical to think that what Linda Burdick Drain said is true? That nobody covers up an accident to make it look like a murder? It's logical to me.

those are just a few things, and I'm not going to go through all of it.

Intuition...after all the logic is put on the table, my own intuition tells me that, based on Casey's demeanor and some other things, like the fact that her parents were looking for Caylee when she wasn't, she is a major suspect.

The evidence would have been enough for me to convict her...on manslaughter, at least. And I heard a defense trial lawyer this AM say the same thing...that if she were on the jury, they would STILL be there hashing it out.

Unless you have photos or an eyewitness, like someone else said, most of it really is circumstantial. To say that the Prosecution didn't prove their case...well..they didn't prove it to that particular jury. To a different jury things might have gone quite differently. Nobody knows for sure.



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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. I tend to agree so there isn't a prosecutor in the country that has any use for me.
Certainly a death sentence on most likely or probably is never going to happen.

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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. The only direct evidence is eyewitness or video of the event
So that would mean almost no crimes could ever be proved.

The problem is that circumstantial evidence requires logical reasoning which seems to be beyond most Americans these days.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. "Logic" would have dictated that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter
I mean, who else would've?

But we know she didn't

We know the son, or the father didn't as well

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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Apparently not since no charges have been filed against anyone in that case
And people are still examining the evidence to try to find the killer.

If logic had dictated that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter, the district attorney would have brought charges.
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