If there's no middle class, who's buying all this shit?

Yes, I know the middle class is being diminished and that people are falling into poverty, but there are near daily claims here that the middle class has been demolished. Then who the hell is buying all the ipads and gizmos and going to Disney World and dining at Appleby's, etc? It isn't the poor and it isn't solely those who are wealthy (or mostly those who are wealthy).

Obviously, the path we're on is not sustainable for the middle class. But it's still here.

Sure, they buy ipads and gizmos, but do they have a nice cushion in savings in case of a loss of job or emergency? Probably not. I bet most people live paycheck to paycheck and the loss of a job would mean poverty. That's not middle class....

for an extended period of time? There are lots of people who are earning $200,000+ annually who live pay check to pay check. Are they not middle class?

because it really depends where you are, for instance our house is worth ruffle 230,000 in good times but move our house to San Francisco and its easily a 1-2 million dollar house.

makes above $150K.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#cite_note-US_Census_2006_Economic_Survey.2C_income_data-5

And they feel giddy about getting out ahead of the bursting bubbles?

And some work for defense contractors.

People have lots of kids and Chinese toys are cheap!

:shrug: You'd think the pre-paid carriers would be booming but they're not.

And they love to show off and be better than anyone.

that they don't have money, but they have all the latest toys. we have friends in NYC. she's 66. he's 63. they have nothing saved for retirement but they're paying $3500 a month for a 1 bedroom apartment. they eat out most of the time and go to the movies which costs $14-16 each.

Stuff is going to have to be replaced whether the people can afford it or not.

Still plenty of easy credit out there for people with good payment histories.

That is who is currently buying stuff.

Don

gaming systems, iphones, ipads, etc.

Hopefully, maybe in a decade or so, we will have made a full recovery.

unless we're talking about real economic or demographic statistics. What is the present trend for sales of consumer electronics? I don't know. Electronic Express is bankrupt. Borders Books is, I believe, bankrupt. The number of Americans receiving food assistance is definitely up. There are hundreds of thousands of formerly well paying factory jobs all across the country that don't exist anymore. Home foreclosures are at an all time record level. Housing construction starts are at their lowest level since the 1940s.

Without taking the time to dig up precise statistics, I feel comfortable in asserting that the middle class has declined steadily over the past 8 years, and dramatically so over the past 2 years, with more people moving towards poverty.

Just guessing.

At how many street people walk around Los Angeles with gizmos. I saw a guy begging recently, holding a cardboard sign and all... texting... on a far better phone than I own.

I have no doubt that people are doing without other things so they can get the latest gizmos.

There are so many shallow people in the world. What they have in the way of the latest flash and bling means more than anything.

is evidence that they're not yet poor enough, don't worry, more people are getting there everyday, anyway.

Wages are stagnant. Executive bonuses are skyrocketing. The wealthy and their corporations pay the lowest taxes they have in 60 years.

And suddenly people who work 50 hours a week, with diminishing pensions and non-existent vacations, need to be scrutinized for going to fucking APPLEBY'S?

Christ, if that's decadence, we ought to just round up all the teachers and firefighters and mid-level office workers buying crazy stuff like Vietnamese take-out and hang them, I guess.

Clearly the middle class is killing itself with its addiction to food and clothing and education. And they DARE criticize hedge-fund managers and telecommunications companies for paying fewer taxes than secretaries and cab drivers?

The NERVE!

showed me some bullshit report written by some old, washed-up hack "scholar" for one of those hack "institutes." He said the poor people in America "have it better than the average citizen in many European countries."

Of course he meant Eastern European countries, like Solvenia and Slovakia. And the evidence that they had it better was that poor people in America are more likely to own a microwave oven.

Good grief. As if a poor family in America living in a two-bedroom duplex with rent-to-own furniture and one medical bill or car repair away from complete economic ruin is better off than a German family with complete medical coverage, paid-for college education, paid sick leave, and all the rest.

These people won't be satisfied until America's working poor are dressed in rags, living in dirt-floored hovels and eating dandelions.

What's the difference between middle class and working class? Is there a difference or are they one in the same? Who makes that determination? :shrug:

while they struggle paycheck to paycheck with high debts. They dine out because they never learned how to cook, so if it's not a low tier chain like Applebees, it's going to go down a notch to fast food takeout.

These people are neither helpless nor stupid. They just grew up that way and have never learned there are alternatives.

"When I tell the kids it's time for dinner, they get their coats & go to the car."

I know families like this. They eat out almost all of the time. The fridge & freezer are stocked with treats.

on edit: spelling

My sister & her husband are underwater on their mortgage, but they have jobs & credit. But, they don't spend as much as they used to.
You are right that the path we're on is not sustainable. The solution is clear & obvious, but there is no political will to change.

just that it is not easy to change buying habits overnight. You can't use cherry picked items and say things are selling. What's the general trend? I know Walmart is feeling the crunch and so are a lot of retailers.

from a Heritage Foundation "action item" that was released today...

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty

TALKING POINTS

1 The typical poor household, as defined by the government, has a car and air conditioning, two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, and a VCR. If there are children, especially boys, the family has a game system, such as an Xbox or PlayStation.

2 In the kitchen, the household has a refrigerator, an oven and stove, and a microwave. Other household conveniences include a clothes washer, clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, and a coffee maker.

3 The home of the typical poor family is in good repair and is not overcrowded. In fact, the typical average poor American has more living space in his home than the average (non-poor) European has.

4 By its own report, the typical poor family was not hungry, was able to obtain medical care when needed, and had sufficient funds during the past year to meet all essential needs.


Abstract: For decades, the U.S. Census Bureau has reported that over 30 million Americans were living in “poverty,” but the bureau’s definition of poverty differs widely from that held by most Americans. In fact, other government surveys show that most of the persons whom the government defines as “in poverty” are not poor in any ordinary sense of the term. The overwhelming majority of the poor have air conditioning, cable TV, and a host of other modern amenities. They are well housed, have an adequate and reasonably steady supply of food, and have met their other basic needs, including medical care. Some poor Americans do experience significant hardships, including temporary food shortages or inadequate housing, but these individuals are a minority within the overall poverty population. Poverty remains an issue of serious social concern, but accurate information about that problem is essential in crafting wise public policy. Exaggeration and misinformation about poverty obscure the nature, extent, and causes of real material deprivation, thereby hampering the development of well-targeted, effective programs to reduce the problem.

have it too good, apparently. This is the kind of slur easily tossed out, with no support, to cast shame on Americans who dare suggest they're not getting a fair shake.

Lazy middle class bastards ought to go to CEO school so they can afford lobbyists to buy them wars and tax breaks like decent rich people.

nt

I'm poor. I couldn't afford an iphone or any of that shit if I wanted to. I fucking know about being poor.

My question had nothing to do with that Heritage foundation report- which is bullshit. I'm simply remarking that people are still buying lots and lots of non-necessities.